171. Tips for Maximising Remote Teamwork

In this second episode of our 4-part series looking at Maximising Hybrid Working, we focus on how to enable effective teamwork. Whether fully remote, or mixing in working from home days with in-office days,  successful teamwork makes the difference for sustaining success during the ups and downs of change or disruption, and for maintaining operational performance under pressure or setback. 

Feeling part of a team impacts retention, seeing the energy and buzz from a good team influences attraction and how a team interacts behind the screens with each other is the workplace culture in reality. The stronger the team relationships, the more challenge, innovation and collaboration is possible. If no-one really knows each other, then they cant trust each other. And as we discuss with Lencioni's 5 Dysfunctions of a Team, trust is the foundation for team success. We share top tips for enabling trust to form when working hybrid - a 5 min check-in chat can transform the quality of conversation that happens.    We revisit Tuckman's Team Dynamic Model and re-purpose  Beckhard's GRIP model to give a handy 'strip it back to basics' approach for those looking to bring a fresh clarity and energy to a team:

Strategic: where are we heading as a team?
Tactical: what does this mean for our now and near focus areas?
Roles: who is doing what and does everyone know who the 'go-to' person is?
Interactions: how and when will we meet/catch up as a team - SLA of expectations?
Processes: how do we do what we do and is everyone clear (internal and external?)

A useful listen for those wanting to focus on the team effectiveness, culture and external reputation.

Curious? Check out our other relevant episodes:

Ep. 104 Enabling Team Agility (with the brilliant Agile Coach, Simon Caudwell)
Ep. 132 Book Club: Surrounded By Idiots? How to Work Well With People
Ep. 128 Teamship: Minimise Politics, Maximise Pace
Ep. 116 Relationships Last Longer Than Emails

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, you alright? Yeah, I'm doing well. Actually, after my little I don't know I think it's got a little bit kind of stressy a bit. Last week I think there was just a lot on and you know, sometimes you think I'm missing that buzz and that chemistry. And I guess that's one of the challenges as a high extrovert is, how do you keep that energy going if you're a party of one doing a lot of remote work, which I was then last week? So am I alone, debs? Is this a hot topic?

Speaker 2: 0:50

for others. It's a super hot topic for others. Laura, you're definitely not alone and not having somebody to bounce off of who might just be sitting at a desk next to you normally, it can really have an impact. If you haven't got that individual there or you can't just get up and walk to the water cooler and just have a oh my God, can you believe just what's happened moment? Yeah, and you're in your own. If you're remote working, there is a cat, doesn't care, you know, just as obviously gets fed. He's quite happy. But it's really interesting that a lot, quite a few people are finding that time to connect to just download some stuff, fix it and move on. Is not there anymore. So, yeah, it can have a massive impact on our mind health as well, because otherwise things go round and round and you can feel yourself getting more and more worked up about it, whereas if your colleague next to you was going.

Speaker 2: 1:44

Laura, what's going on with you at this moment? You go wow, and you could download it, and then you'd both get on with it, but we're missing that, yeah, so we've got to create it.

Speaker 1: 1:52

I think it was the point where you saw that I was throwing my handbags across the room that I was dialing in from on a bit of a mini tantrum, that probably.

Speaker 2: 2:00

Just a bit.

Speaker 1: 2:01

Should we have an old chat? Yeah, should we talk about that one though? Yeah, so the thing is, though, is we can't ask our parents and our grandparents for advice about this. We are the first generation of adult workforce who are working out. What does it mean to have that sweet spot of in room with people dialing in? So there's the convenience of not having to travel, which opens up so many doors for people to work in so many different roles, but actually, at what point does that lack of in room interaction start to make an impact?

Speaker 1: 2:31

So the first part of this four part focus, looking at effective hybrid working, was all about time management. So how do you ensure that just even those boundaries are gone or off, which has such a big impact on wellness and performance and all those other things? This one is all about the team ship aspect. So, deb, in your experience, what are you picking up? Are some themes as a result of not just months now, but years of more remote based team working, and actually, what is really starting to come out as some patterns and some themes. So what are you picking up?

Speaker 2: 3:05

So picking up is the biggest. One is about communication not knowing what somebody else was doing, or no one's told me that that's what you were working on. I've been working on that too. So it's that good old communication. One is not clear, there's no clarity, there's no connection on it. It feels like that people aren't collaborating on certain topics. Some people might have been going off and doing their own thing and then they've got back together on either either in room or on a teams meeting, and then somebody else has realized that they've just gone and done all that work. So it's the communication one that is just misaligning at times, which is the biggest one out of all of them. That's the one that keeps coming back, even after all. This time.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Lack of communication I suppose the lack of accountability to some extent as well was well, I thought you were doing it well, I thought you were doing it well. No, I thought they were doing it. Which one of you was going to pick up the phone and ask? So it's like we've forgotten that. Am I the only one working on this? I might need to reach out to my colleague and see if they're working on it too. The phone is still there. So communication for me all the way yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:17

Communication is not just volume, so it's not just masses and masses of emails.

Speaker 2: 4:21

Well, I did update the team.

Speaker 1: 4:22

I sent them an email, but if you were there in the room you would have picked up those little micro measures, micro indicators that I'm not sure everyone's getting this, you know. Let's have a bit more of a conversation about it, so communication is such a huge topic. What we wanted to do on this particular episode was look at what might be some top tips for maximising remote teamwork, whether you are a team that is fully remote, whether you're mixing it with a bit of hybrid, so in office, dialing in, and I think there are a couple of concepts that can just really help decision-make and prioritise what are some of the things that we want to work on. And then you've got some nice top tips that you're going to take us through at the end. I have.

Speaker 1: 5:08

Yes. So just to set a bit of context around this, I think if I sort of see what's playing out in training rooms and workshops at the moment, there is, first off, there's a desire for the team to get together, but there's quite a amount of pressure that builds around that now because if actually it's the first time that a whole team has come together ever, or at least maybe for six months, there's quite a bit of pressure and people might worry actually about then, you know, sort of coming in. They're a bit nervous about coming on a sort of a team day aspect, which is why then, if ever we're facilitating sessions, you know the skill set, hopefully, that we always a team bring in is just increase and rapport, dropping people's guard, and then they just so feel relaxed and they're able to kind of build in. And what's been, I just think, so gratifying is how useful people find some of these theories, concepts and models, not to get lost in the complication of things, but just to simplify what might be going on.

Speaker 1: 6:06

And I think even for our team, when you can see there's a bit of a pattern and there are highs and lows, and this isn't that this team is never built to be effective together. It's just like any living thing there's an evolution, there's a stage, there's a process, and it can really help not only recognize where you're at now, but what that might mean to help set up for the next couple of months for it to be great. So one of the first tools we're going to go through is Tuckman's team dynamic model, and then, debs, you're going to slip in something little cool and sexy around team dynamics and what it means to be a functioning team.

Speaker 2: 6:45

Yes, definitely Looking forward to that. Tell us all about.

Speaker 1: 7:02

Tuckman, then Law. Okay. So picture the scene. You've got a big orchestra that is coming together. They're not used to playing with each other. You've got a set of individuals who are absolutely first-class performers themselves, but being a first-class performing expert in your own right at some point. Actually, the reason why you have a conductor or a manager is to enable that ensemble of people to be able to work well together and to play things better more than a sum of their individual parts. So the metaphor of an orchestra, I think, just works beautifully when you think about a team warming up and going through that kind of process of learning to work with each other.

Speaker 1: 7:42

So Donald Tuckman in the 1960s, this is Tuckman's model four stages of team dynamics. So the first stage is forming. So forming is when you've got people first coming together. Maybe there is an action squad that's been put together to sort out some system issues. Maybe it is a new member joining a team and they might be quite a high established team, but there's been some shifting in terms of who's in the team. So the first stage is everyone's on their best behaviour really. So if someone says so, anyone got any problems. If everyone's kind of quiet, then they keep quiet. It's not because everything's great, it's just they're aware that they're in this kind of new sort of scenario.

Speaker 1: 8:22

And then if this is where the analogy with the orchestra I think works beautifully, then you've got to warm up. So that's storming, where potentially there's lots of things that then can come out. In a moment I know you're going to give us a bit more of an insight on how to maximise that storming time. And then this is where I think managers and leaders and architects within a team so those key people that are within a team, that shape the dynamics really help go from storming to norming. Which are those communication norms? How do we work with each other If you're working as a hybrid or remote, fully remote team? The check-in on the first and last shift of the week, just those little things that actually make it clear we are a team. There's more than just me. It's not just the communication flow, it's also that sense of belonging and that sense of we're sharing work, not one person sitting there melting at the end of a week, so kind of overwhelmed with it, and then that then leads itself.

Speaker 1: 9:17

So, after norming, it then lends itself to a team that is performing, which, like that orchestra. Even if someone makes an individual mistake, the rest of the orchestra just styles it out, because we're not here individually. We're here now as a collective, as a result of the process we've gone to form as a team. So in a moment I know you're going to take us through a brilliant bit of kit that fits in quite nicely with the storming and the norming and how you arrive at that. But I think performing isn't just where you're making money as an organisation or delivering care, it's also the team. Are sturdy and stable enough to be able to handle anything. And the fifth stage that was put in the 1970s recession actually was mourning, which is where a team gets stuck in the past, looking back, feeling forever wistful or missing the good old days, and what that then does is you've got a team of people that aren't focusing forward. Or what do we do now? And interestingly, debs, even though this tool is like 50, 60 years old, now.

Speaker 2: 10:17

Yeah, it's old one, but it's a good old there are still people who can't go.

Speaker 1: 10:20

I've never seen that before. God, that's useful. Or there are people who've seen it back in the day and gone. I get it now. It's not that we're never going to work as a team, it's just the team are stuck in the past. No one's actually helped them process and set a fresh reformation. What are we doing now? What do we stand for? Where are we going? So, just on a very simple level, from a team point of view, just placing where we are now and what does the next stage look like, what that mean and it's not all just the manager, it's us as a team where our energy is.

Speaker 2: 10:50

And I think it's super important to recognise where the team are. As you're saying, when you're looking at Tuckman's model, it can really make a difference to find out where are we, because some people might be at different stages in that team formation and that's where I think that ability to just take a moment and review and reflect and reset can make a massive difference. I was working with a team only last week who did just that. That was the whole point of them coming back together to be able to just sort of pause for a moment. Let's reset. It was great to be in the room with everybody and it just made a huge difference.

Speaker 2: 11:26

They created a real team spirit around what they were going to do and then how they were going to roll that out to their teams as well. So in a half a day we got through loads of stuff because they'd obviously come together. They were sort of storming, norming, but actually they felt more able to then come into the norm and then the perform bit. But they had to reset as well and renew where they had come from. Brilliant, it worked really well.

Speaker 1: 11:53

It's so handy and I think for everyone it just empowers you. Oh, we're not stuck like this forever. This is just. You know, we're just a set of duds who are all trying to make it work. Actually, we can make this work. It's all part of a journey. They were just maybe some targeted conversations we can then have. So the Tuckman model it's been around for ages. It's a really handy place to start, whether you've been there, done it, worn the t-shirt. Well, you know, the t-shirt might not be fitting quite so like it used to before.

Speaker 1: 12:22

True Permission to just relook and re, kind of evaluate. So it helps set a bit of a three, six, nine month game plan because, just like seasons, teams go through those ebbs and flows and there's any kind of change, then that kind of you know can impact a team, and then the dynamics and from a hybrid point of view, there'll be less accidental moments for these relationships to form. This is, I think, what I'm seeing. Deb, I know you're going to take us through a tool in a moment that can really help process that as well, but we might need to be far more targeted and mindful about it now because you might not all just happen to sit next to each other waiting for a meeting to start in a room and you will have a chance to chat. These things might need to be much more planned and put in, because there might be less serendipitous moments for some of this kind of team ship to form.

Speaker 2: 13:11

Yeah, and I think that's where you know having the flexibility and trust of the team is going to be super important to help people move through whatever it is they're being faced with. So the ability to start and establish that strong team culture I think has to be a priority if you really want your team to perform super well. So maybe looking at how do you do that and what can you do differently, or revisit, or you know, just take a moment and look at it for what it is.

Speaker 1: 13:40

So, debs, take us through the next bit of kit, which just fits really smartly into the. Well, I can see where the team is at now and I can see what a performing team looks like in terms of how we work and ways of working. And so take us through now what that might mean in terms of creating a fully functioning team, so how we as a team are set up and we are fully functioning in terms of our ways of working.

Speaker 2: 14:13

So, laura, this is Patrick Lencioni's model, which again is an old one, but a really good one, because again it gives people an opportunity to just stop and pause and think about where are we in relation to our team dynamic, and we talk about five stages to create, as he said, the five successes or frustrations of a team. And what he talks about is being able to know where you're at on those different levels and what you can do to enable teams to move through the storming to the norm, into the performing to some extent. So the first one is always the trust, trust and safety, and that is the foundation, really, of any great team working well together. Because the minute there is trust, there is respect or mutual respect, there's an acceptance, there's the ability to be vulnerable, there's an ability to identify what my needs might be within the team, there is strengths, there's good characters within it, we have a good level of competence. Then that absolutely builds the trust and safety within the team, rather than the distrust of feeling unsafe. Everybody's in it just for themselves and that's not a good place to be. So this is the foundation of everything and, as a team, being able to identify that by getting to know each other better, taking time out, being able to have good, strong communication, knowing what you love, what you love all of these things. So being able to create an environment where teams get to know each other better will start to build that trust.

Speaker 2: 15:47

He then moves up to the next one, which is about how well do we, I suppose, deal with conflict and I love the phrase. He talks about artificial harmony where we're not really discussing any real issues. It's very nice, we're avoiding conflict, we're not speaking up, maybe not even be listening to people, because this is inherent fear of conflict, or people don't have trust, so therefore they're not sure. But the conversations might happen outside of that meeting. So we've all been there, right, when everybody's going, yeah, no, I'm fine, everything's okay, and then you walk out the door and then that's when the real conversation happens. So it's really important that we create a space where people can be open and they can be candid, maybe in a respectful way, obviously, because if you build the trust, there will be respect, and it's a way to share ideas and thoughts and opinions. It's a way where we disrupt people's current thinking, and I suppose that's the bit that then people go oh, okay, then actually this is creating harmony, not artificial, but a proper harmonious relationship like, I suppose, playing in the orchestra. You can hear the harmonies playing together. So that's where we want to get to the third level.

Speaker 2: 17:05

He has his commitment and it's about how do we involve people in order to be really proactive, to feel like they're participating in that team, because the flip of that is then lack of involvement. They're not involved in any of the decisions you're making. You're just doing and making things happen, regardless of whether you've got a team with you or not. So the more you can involve people in the decision-making process, the more you're going to commit to following up with them, the more you're going to have regular one-to-ones. All of those things start to build a level of commitment so that I feel like I belong and that I matter in this team. Which then leads us to the fourth one, which is about accountability, taking responsibility and asking, discussing, taking the initiative in things. If there's something maybe misaligned, you're not afraid to speak up or put your thoughts in, so that we're accountable. We are making sure we're part of something. We are, as you said, taking the initiative, having those conversations clear communication comes into this one as well and therefore, we're taking action and initiative around what it is we're doing which is super important around it.

Speaker 2: 18:16

And then the very last one, which is what all companies want, is results. How do we achieve our team goals? How are we results-focused? How are we looking at what's important to us? What do we need to do to help us do that?

Speaker 2: 18:32

So, if we look at the results element of it as I say, it's looking at that bit around how do we achieve team goals? What can we do? So we're paying attention to the results and because we've got the trust at the very beginning and we're able to have good conversations around it and we feel like we're part of it and I know my role and responsibility in that space, then I'll deliver on the results that's wanted, so that it's not about just me, it's not about my ego, it's not just about my own department, so we're not siloed in our thinking. It's about inclusion and ensuring that everybody is part of that and we're all heading in the same direction. And it's such a great model and it works to create great conversations around. How do we get our teams from that storming to norming, to performing, and it's just a good way to have great conversations.

Speaker 1: 19:25

So, debs, right? So as I'm listening to your talk and I'm quite a visual person and I know from what I've seen the Patrick Lencioni model before, it is like this triangle with the baseline at the bottom being trust, and once that is in place you're much more likely to get those higher things and you might have a team that is winning business for the moment. But the moment there's a setback or there's a challenge, if the trust isn't there, then it becomes dog eat dog. That impacts belonging and retention and etc. Etc. So as I was listening to your talk, I was thinking hang on a minute. Are there actually some parallels between this and Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

Speaker 2: 20:05

Oh, my God, completely.

Speaker 1: 20:06

Right. So you've got an individual that needs to have psychological and physical safety and security before you've got enough headspace to think how do I improve, how do I be my best self? So if you just found out, you're a risk of redundancy. There aren't that many people that are going to be motivated to help that business achieve its 10-year vision because suddenly your focus has gone way down on those kind of lower needs because they're at risk. Same with the team, I guess, isn't it? Yes, same, exactly the same. So how do we as a team get our basics of? Have we got each other's back or do we have to watch our backs? And if I'm watching my back because I don't really trust my team and when they say something I'm not entirely sure if there's an edge or not, then I'm diverting attention that could have been put on the key intent ahead. But actually I've got half an eye watching my back because I'm not quite sure what's going to happen.

Speaker 2: 20:59

Yeah, definitely, and I think it comes back to setting the team up for success. So, first of all, what are our ways of working as a team? How do we create and define what our team values are? What is our values, what's our goal, what's our mission as a team? So, ensuring that then everybody's aligned to that and everybody has a say in that.

Speaker 2: 21:20

It's not just I'm telling you this is where we're heading. This is about a conversation that shapes the structure of that team so that they feel part of something, and it comes starts with communication right, being sure that you've set some expectations around what we're communicating, on how we're going to communicate that, what are some of the guidelines that we do, what are our ways of working that enable us to do that, and regular check-ins. So how are we doing today? What's working, what's not working, having a level of vulnerability and I think that's super important that people feel like they are part of that team because you bother, and that you care enough about them to want them to thrive. So we're providing people with the right tools that they need to do their job. There is an opportunity to create that safety feeling because they know how to get hold of you, and it could be as simple as that.

Speaker 2: 22:13

So for me it comes back to that communication is everything. It starts there what we do, we'll do, what we won't do, what we do like, what we don't like, who can do what? How you know, all of that lovely stuff starts there and it enables us to grow and develop. We get feedback, we get recognition, we get projects that we want to work on. We're working together with other people who are just as talented as we are and together we're heading towards that team vision and the team goal and we're having that opportunity to thrive, not just survive.

Speaker 1: 22:48

Oh, I love it, debs. There's I'm thinking, of a couple of breakthrough moments that I've had the privilege of seeing happen with it, with teams, where you might have a team, and at the start you're thinking, god, we've got a defrosse and frozen heart here. And if you say to people we're going to do a speedback exercise, and you think, oh God, you know, everyone just goes no. But if you dress it up as just we're just going to spend a bit of time getting to know each other one on one around the room, bit of music on, and you see this sense of, oh my God, I've actually got some real quality colleagues. There's a lot of insight here.

Speaker 1: 23:25

So someone might have only been in the business for six months and if you've been in the business battling for 16 years doing all of the legwork and then new people come in saying we've got to change, we've got to transform, you know, you can see how they can become almost this old school, new school divide which I'm picking up quite a bit of at the moment, actually, where there are people who have been doing the best that they can given the resources that they had at the time, who don't find it particularly motivating actually having lots of new people coming in saying how, why has it done this way? Why hasn't it done another way? And actually, rather than everyone just sort of competing and sort of arguing about it, let's just take five minutes to find out. Tell me about you. What's your background? What are you motivated by?

Speaker 2: 24:10

What do you love doing? What do you love?

Speaker 1: 24:11

doing what actually would give you a real buzz. You know you and I have been put together on this project. We don't really know each other. I know we've sat in meetings over the last couple of years, but should we just take half an hour to find out a bit about our bio where, where, what we're interested in and then what that then means Deb's is next time? I see a little team's chat message for you. I understand the intonation behind it that in a real world environment, I could have picked up through your body, language and tone, but now, in a hybrid environment, I can only go on the words alone, and so we need to have almost that catch up time to then be able to prevent any conflicts over the next six to 12 months. So I think it's about prioritising that those conversations that are going to are more prone to imagination and perception than then actually reality, because you've got less time to judge each other.

Speaker 2: 25:05

Yeah, definitely so. So important. And actually you're talking there. Look, make me think about even though we use talk man as the team model, that then becomes your own individual model as well, because you're gonna have to reform your relationship with that individual right? So even on a one on one, it can be okay.

Speaker 2: 25:21

Well, I might need to Reform this. I'm gonna go into forming. There might be a little bit of storming going on because we're just finding out how we like it. So, even from an individual perspective, I think you can apply tockman's model over the top of that, just like you did with mazlo Individually against lenseon is model. We can do the same as individuals across tockman's model.

Speaker 2: 25:43

So actually I need to reform with someone, reset so that we have a greater understanding what we're doing with knowledge sharing. We know what we're at, we know where we're heading. But it might be my I'm accountable for making that happen and cuz we are not accountable for other people, we're only accountable for ourselves. So if I'm noticing that something needs to maybe shift or I'm not sure, then that's down to me to go and have that conversation with that individual to Form a better relationship than the one we had maybe three years ago, so I think there's a lot of when these cross over, both from a team perspective also from an individual. As part of that team, we have a accountability and a response to make it the best it can be. Yes, we're here most of the time cuz.

Speaker 1: 26:29

If you're stuck in traffic, you're part of traffic, if you're surrounded by a demotivated team or you're part of that, that with with that, and where I'm not just had countless times I know we all would as well where someone might say there are really decent person. Just sometimes they're a bit blunt when they communicate. How do you know? And then that means that in a real world environment you can't go out. Well, that's just been them. Yes, and I know that they could take responsibility to Taylor communication style. But sometimes you know, people do just communicate in a way that you prefer it to be done differently, but that tolerance and that patience and understanding happens because you got a sense of knowledge about them. If you're dialing in on teams calls and all you can go in or is on someone's Formal interaction, then they're just gonna seem like a difficult person rather than someone that sometimes might be a bit blunt in relation to how you would like to be communicated with.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Yeah, very important, and I think that's when I think my call to action actually would be around check in with yourself as to how are you being on any of these hybrid calls that you might be on all your hybrid working that you set yourself up with. How are you actually showing up to those? Are you properly present? Are you ready to be involved in the conversation? So, yeah, that would be my call to action. Take it, you know, just take a moment to look at yourself and go yeah, I might be my best self on here. Maybe I'm not. I need to change that. That's what I'm. I called to action would be nice.

Speaker 1: 27:59

My share. The secret would be actually riffing on a theme for some work that we're doing with a client at the moment about stripping things back to basics. So if it feels like everything around team has become a little bit complicated, well, that's precisely why we need humans to help clarify it is not those robots because it requires that human endeavor to be able to think around all these types of different things.

Speaker 1: 28:21

It's kind of a bit on the theme of Richard Beckman's grip model, which is such a simple way just to simplify what can feel very complicated, and teams can be complicated, and it's complicated further If there's not those kind of human aspects of where you're there in room, you having to go purely on kind of language and written language alone, and this, this is a way to sort of strip things back to basics. So s t r I p. So sharing the secret. So just having a catch up with someone strategically, where's our team heading? So, longer term, what was the game plan strategically? Where are we heading tactically? What does that mean now and near?

Speaker 1: 29:01

So what our focus should be, that's the s new T roles, who's doing what this, what I'm doing, what you do, interpersonal interaction. So what would be our expectations for how much we communicate, what that look like, and P is for processes, so what we're going to do when and what's our processes to be able to have some kind of governance. So strategic Tactic, tactic, roles, interactions, processes and answer any of those clearly in your mind, then that would give you an indication that might be worth, then, to prevent storming lingering for longer than it needs, to get a bit of clarity and the name of that fully functioning team, because if you know that, you can trust Much more what's happening, why decisions have been made, which then lends to all its good stuff. So strip things back to basics steps strip it back to basics, love it.

Speaker 2: 29:51

I think that's a great share the secret law. So go on, then, what we're talking about next week remind me.

Speaker 1: 29:56

Oh, next week we are talking about making the in office time count. All nice, okay, if hybrid model is the one that you are all your debating whether to follow. So you've organized yourself like a good and with time management tips we've been talking about as the first focus. We then had a look from a team ship point of view. So how do you ensure we actually are able to collaborate and work well as a team, with some concepts and some top tips? And then the next one is looking at okay, I'm there in the office of battle to other public transport or all cues, I'm here. How do I make that time counts? So then you're able to really take advantage of that, because sitting in a room, rent it out on your own, dialing on to a teams call for eight hours whilst you're there in an office yeah, it just doesn't make sense. So how, when you're there, what's that mean before, during and after to make an in office day? Really can't wait for that one, debs.

Speaker 2: 30:52

Yeah, looking forward to that one too, when, in the meantime, let's have a good hybrid working week yes, debs, let's strip it back Back to performance.

Speaker 1: 31:08

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