In this extended episode we focus on the treasure trove of benefits that neurodivergence brings to the table. Hugely successful people such as Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Greta Thunberg and Richard Branson have shared how their dyslexic, ADHD or autistic gift to think and see things differently has enabled them to impact and shake up the world. In our increasingly AI/automated workplace, having a neurodivergent brain could be the career asset to nurture rather than a risk to mitigate. And for anyone planning to be in the world of work in 2030 and beyond, knowing what is happening in schools now enables you to prepare well for your future colleagues.
We are joined by consultant Headteacher Julie Bravery who has been in the world of education for over 30 years. As well as running one of the UK's most successful primary schools she has consulted with the DoE and local authorities. Her observations are that the education system is outdated and not fit for modern life : "it is the system that is broken, not your child". For example, an estimated 10% of the population is dyslexic (and that's just those who have been assessed) and with typically one SENco (specialist co-ordinator) per school, many children are getting left behind. Societally, this is already causing self-esteem/mental health challenges in adulthood, and commercially, an extraordinary amount of brainpower could be missed because that difference was not nurtured. Please share with anyone who you think would benefit from a shot of confidence about their neurodivergence - the world needs your beautiful brain!
Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid (attributed to Einstein).
In this extended episode we focus on the treasure trove of benefits that neurodivergence brings to the table. Hugely successful people such as Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Greta Thunberg and Richard Branson have shared how their dyslexic, ADHD or autistic gift to think and see things differently has enabled them to impact and shake up the world. In our increasingly AI/automated workplace, having a neurodivergent brain could be the career asset to nurture rather than a risk to mitigate. And for anyone planning to be in the world of work in 2030 and beyond, knowing what is happening in schools now enables you to prepare well for your future colleagues.
We are joined by consultant Headteacher Julie Bravery who has been in the world of education for over 30 years. As well as running one of the UK's most successful primary schools she has consulted with the DoE and local authorities. Her observations are that the education system is outdated and not fit for modern life : "it is the system that is broken, not your child". For example, an estimated 10% of the population is dyslexic (and that's just those who have been assessed) and with typically one SENco (specialist co-ordinator) per school, many children are getting left behind. Societally, this is already causing self-esteem/mental health challenges in adulthood, and commercially, an extraordinary amount of brainpower could be missed because that difference was not nurtured. Please share with anyone who you think would benefit from a shot of confidence about their neurodivergence - the world needs your beautiful brain!
Everybody is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid (attributed to Einstein).
Lau 0:02
Secrets From a Coach; thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace, your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thomson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs...
Debs 0:16
Lau you alright?
Lau 0:18
Yeah, really good. Thanks. How you doing? How's your week been?
Debs 0:21
Yeah, it's been really good has some really great conversations this week, I know you're gonna listen into one as well.
Lau 0:27
I know I can't wait. So as the final in our months focus on to be different is to be human. This has generated so much energy, this topic we're going to focus on in this episode. We call it the wonders of neurodiversity, and how the future needs different thinkers. And there's lots in the press around neurodiversity at the moment. And so we're going to get an insight from our guests in terms of what's going on in schools today, because that gives us a bit of a heads up as to what's likely to hit our workplaces tomorrow. So you caught up with the amazing Julie Bravery consultant head teacher 30 years as an educationalist. She's seen it all, not only in her her position as headship at one of the top performing primary schools in the UK. But in her fascinating insights, working in a consultant mode for Department of Education, various local authorities. And so she's going to be giving us her take on the impact of neurodiversity, and what that then means and her view on it.
Debs 1:28
Yeah, it's a really good conversation. And we had a right good old chat about it and her the way she describes it just makes perfect sense. So I hope you enjoy it law.
Hi, Julie, it's good that you could join us on our podcast. And this is such an exciting topic. I can't wait to speak to you about it. So for those of you, I'm going to introduce you to Julie bravery, who's a consultant head teacher, who primarily now works with schools who are faced with challenging circumstances, and also working really closely with new leaders. So Judy, welcome.
Julie Bravery 2:07
Thank you. Deb's very pleased to be here. Thank you very much.
Debs 2:10
Yes, it's really good. So give us a little bit about you, Julie.
Julie Bravery 2:14
Okay, so this is a topic that I am very passionate about. I'm dyslexic. I wasn't diagnosed at school. And actually only really so suspected that I was dyslexic when I was in about my late 30s. And 40s. wasn't diagnosed until last year when I was 49. Actually, and I suspect if you if you assessed me for ADHD, I'd probably be that as well. So I mean, my experience at school. I did, okay. I struggled with exams, scraped my way into university, and I mean, scraped my way. But when I got into university, like many I think people are similar to me with dyslexia, or, or neurodiversity. I actually started to excel. I just found a passion. So I went on to teach for four years. And then I was very fortunate to end up being catapulted really into the world of kind of local authority and into headship. I've had a career spanning around 30 years. And I make it sound as though it was all a bit of a breeze really, which which it wasn't because actually, I have spent most of my career ploughed with a lot of self doubt, and not feeling confident. But I think again, that's a very common trait for people with neuro diversity, and in my case, dyslexia, but I think because you develop a real sense of resilience and resourcefulness very early on, as a child, that actually ended up serving me very well, when I went into my career.
Debs 4:03
Wow. And when you think about that, this the span you've had and what you've had to, you know, to deal with, and you mentioned the topic about, you know, what is neurodiversity? So what does it mean? Because it's such a topic at the moment, and there's loads of people talking about it. It what does it actually mean? Julie?
Julie Bravery 4:21
My interpretation is neuro diversity is a human made label. We've, we've got so much science now around understanding the brain. And I think because of that it no longer fits into a neat, predetermined box. So we've labelled neurodiversity and then we've subdivided it into things like autism, Aspergers, dyslexia, ADHD, a DD, and so on. So So actually, for me, neuro diversity isn't really neurodiversity. IE, actually the brain and the fact that would we expect this powerful computer within our heads to just be doing one kind of job, you know, and working in one kind of way. Individuals classed as neuro diverse, they just work at a much higher level on aspects of brain function, and less so in others. And really, that's that's all?
Debs 5:28
What is education doing to sort of, you know, help support by desist? If you like this new neuro diverse approach to learning, you know, what are they actually doing? And where are they may be not doing it? Well?
Julie Bravery 5:42
Yeah, I don't think education actually meets the needs of neurodiverse young people, children very well at all. So the two barriers I think is the first one is that the way that examinations and standardised assessments are constructed are, are causing a huge barrier. And the second one is about how we train our educational professionals to not only spot neurodiversity, but also how we address it, what we do for our children. So if I give you a little example, so I'm going to take you on a bit of a history lesson, this is I think, quite an interesting, okay, so I want you to think about, we're gonna go back in history when exams, were the first public exams were invented in introduced. So this was in the 19th century, late 19th century. And they were designed to measure a child's ability to retain knowledge, what they had been taught, essentially, and they had to draw it from memory. So it was built on the view that the educated person is a collector of knowledge. And they described it at the time about training the memories of students. And so if we, if we fast track to today, and how we do the same exams, and standardised assessment assessments, I'm talking about things like GCSEs SATs tests in primary schools, a levels, you know, there's a whole host of screening that goes on now. And they're largely based on the same premise, and also the same subjects. So that hasn't really does change hugely. With regards to how questions are, are set. Yes, there has been some development within those, there's a little bit more analysis applied and simulated problems. But the same view of education is still widely promoted that the educated person is the collector of knowledge, and they can apply that knowledge within an exam setting. Now, I want you to think about in contrast to that to other inventions that came around at the same time, so this is the late 19th century. In fact, these are slightly later than the first public exams. So in 1876, Alexander Graham Bell painted painted
Debs 8:34
the first telephone man, yes. Okay.
Julie Bravery 8:38
In 1886, Carl Benz painted the first petrol engine car,
Debs 8:46
right. Okay. Wow.
Julie Bravery 8:48
Now, I want you to fast track today. And I want you to think about where we are today with the telephone. Oh, my goodness. Yes. And probably the most significant in kind of a innovation with the telephone was probably Steve Jobs with the iPhone, wasn't it in the early 2000s. Yeah. I mean, I know we've had things in there, but that was really pioneering Yeah. Steve Jobs dyslexic. Right. Okay. So let's also look at the car the petrol engine. Yeah. And let's bring it right up to today. Go on. And now you've got probably the most significant one probably in the last few years. Elon Musk Yeah. With Tesla cars. Yes. Who's recently come out to say that he's just Burgess. Right. Okay. You know, but But I think what is the most interesting kind of comparison is if, if you think about the investment, and the innovation that's gone in on in those two inventions Since the 19th century, it is phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. Anything like what it used to know. But in contrast, a human beings brain is still essentially being educated and measured in the same way as we did in the late 19th century. But the brain is the greatest computer on Earth. Yes. I'm gonna leave that one. I'm gonna leave that to your audience.
Debs 10:33
Oh, my God, that's like, when you put it into perspective like that, it does make you think. And I suppose that what the what the other thing is, is that, actually, therefore, what is the impact, then when we're looking at the world of work? You know, when we're thinking about, you know, where we're bringing up the next generation of workers? You know, so what, you know, what, what is that all about, then? And how I suppose to employers have to maybe think differently as well. And I know, some are already looking at that, and, and everything else. But you know, what else can we do that, you know, that can help, I suppose.
Julie Bravery 11:08
Okay, in 2018, I produced a very simple, very easy to read a book called me, my child and robots. And it was based on a two year piece of work that I'd done at my last school, where we were looking at, you know, what, what are, what are we preparing the child for the future. And actually, Laura was one of the person that was involved in that. And I remember at the time going in thinking it was all going to be about computers, and finding out very quickly that that wasn't going to be the case, two pieces of research, I think, stick out for me, from that time from that piece of work that I did. So Google carried out two research projects, one in 2013, which was called Project oxygen, which they looked at their recruitment strategy. Now, up until that point, their recruitment strategy at Google had been to recruit the very best minds from the top Ivy League, or equivalent universities. And that that had been their recruitment strategy. And, and they use project oxygen to test that hypothesis. And actually, at the time, the results shocked a lot of people. Because they concluded that out of the eight most important qualities of the people they recruited, communicate, being able to be a good communicator was absolutely crucial was number one, proficiency in what is known as STEM subjects. So science, technology, engineering, and maths came last. Three years later, in 2016, they did project Aristotle, which was to explore what makes a team effective at Google. And again, it was quite surprising to them what came from that piece of research that the most important and productive ideas did not come from their aid teams. And these were the teams that have been susceptible, assembled with a small, what was deemed the smartest and top scientists. And actually, their best ideas were coming from what they classed as their B teams, which compromised of mixed ability and multidisciplinary employees. They were the ones that were traditionally seen as not the smartest in the room. Now, if you fast forward, again, from that, from that piece of research that I did in 2018, to now, and I mean, it's been a really interesting, obviously 12 months. Yeah,
Debs 13:56
so many people.
Julie Bravery 14:00
Yeah, the World Economic Forum, revise their skills for 2025. I think it's an October, wasn't it? Yeah. And what I think is really interesting now that five out of the 10 skills that they're listing are all about problem solving, aspects to do with problem solving, I think and two of them, I think two out of the 10 are about self management. And this is really kind of a think, cause causing the causing businesses and large corporations to really sit up and look at what they're getting. Because actually, if you're producing children coming out or young people coming out of school, with exam results that are largely based on being educated with knowledge, then that is not going to be a good or very accurate predictor about the Young people and how they're going to fit into the skills needed for the future. So we're already seeing organisations looking at how they're going to adapt just their recruitment, their selection and career development. So this is a really high kind of high profile examples of this. So virgin. So in 2016, Richard Branson announced that virgin were going to stop asking for exam results on their application process. And GCHQ have a very interesting kind of selection process, and actively seek out neurodiverse people, because they're the people they know, are the ones that are going to add a huge amount of value to their organisation.
Debs 15:46
So I suppose it's ignore this at your peril, really, isn't it based on that, which is, which is something we have to think about? And I suppose when you know, when you're looking at that, Julie, around, you know, that the whole piece around the the changing landscape? You know, I suppose it's what do we have to consider in relation to that?
Julie Bravery 16:04
Number one, I would say, and neurodiverse people may not interview well. And I'll give you a little example. Now, last, at the end of last year, I was interviewed by a very high profile educational establishment organisation in this country. And it was it was based over three days, which to start with, I was quite hopeful about I was thinking, Okay, this, this could work well, involved a lot of practical kind of what you might almost term as hangout kind of more informal kind of interview process. So and by the time you got to the third day, if you had passed all of those you got through to the formal interview experience. Now at this point, I'm what I would say is my track record for the job that I was applying for, was better than the organisation I was going into. I had excellent references. And you can imagine I've been doing a long time. So I had a lot of experience. So when I was invited to the formal interview, I, my assumption was that that was going to be more about how did I fit as a personality within the team? Because the other activities at all been about whether I could do the job. And the first question I think I was asked, was to describe how I had worked with a particular leader, which I did. I knew pretty much straight away that I wasn't answering it correctly.
Debs 17:54
So you weren't saying what they wanted to hear.
Julie Bravery 17:58
And I think when, you know, the feedback happens afterwards, there was a preconceived idea of how that question should be answered. Right. Okay. And because I answered it in my way, which I'll be honest with you, I'm a bit of a storyteller, I kind of tell stories. And that was deemed that I wasn't? Well, I think, actually, what he said was, I think he lost your nerve. And I was like Florida. Actually, no, thing I did, leads us on to the second thing that I think is something that the businesses do need to be really aware of, is that the assumption that your processes need to be delivered in in absolute conformity to a standardised approach? So if you're believing that actually in my case, there's only one way to answer that question is only one way to deliver what we're asking, then then a neurodiverse person is never going to fit within your organisation, because they need to be allowed to deviate from those established practices. And often, if you allow them to do that, they will come up with the solute A better solution, and they will do it quicker than then you may have ever considered. And but actually, that's really, really important that you know, you're going to be really rigid that it has to look in a certain way, then you're never going to embrace neuro diversity within your team
Debs 19:36
and embrace difference within that and what that what the quality of what that will bring. And to do that is a sort of final question really leading up, you know, what can we do, I suppose to raise the awareness, make it happen, be aware of what's going on around us so that, as we said, in the changing landscape that we're finding ourselves in and I know listening to other parents of children who have suddenly had to homeschool, are finding that maybe what they thought their child was getting wasn't necessarily the best thing for them. But then again, thinking about then employers, how do they make sure that, you know, they're moving with this changing? Changing Landscape? What would what would you say to that, Julie?
Julie Bravery 20:17
So I think for employers, I think the first thing I will say is exam results are only one way of measuring intelligence. And I think as we're seeing now from lots of conversations that are happening, is is actually exam results are on whilst they are one way of of kind of sifting out your, your kind of pool of people applying for a job, and they may not be the most effective way, in terms of selecting the right candidates for you, you need to be really, really careful about what do we actually want? What are we actually looking for, and then design your processes around that. So, you know, instead of traditionally thinking about the traditional formal interview room, in other organisations are now trialling things like Hangouts, which are less informal, you know, they might have people working with them for three or four weeks doing projects that you do, either individually or maybe in a team to see how they progress and how that looks. And I think the next thing is to have a really, is to have an open dialogue. You know, people who are neurodiverse are getting much better, and feeling much braver about declaring that now, no, I don't think you legally can ask somebody. But actually, I think we want to get into a situation where people are happy to talk about their, their neurodiversity. So actually, having an organisation that encourages people, to be honest about a diagnosis and to talk about it, then, is really vital and really important. You know, look at your selection and your recruitment and your retention and your processes. Look at how flexible you are. And I think a lot of companies now are devising things called, like neurodiverse strategies. And and that's great. I mean, that's really, really great. And I think it's a really positive mood move. What I would say is, please make sure you have the right people around the table, there is absolutely no point in doing a neuro diverse strategy if you haven't got neuro diversity people involved in it, because because as much as you might like to think you can get inside my mind, I can tell you, you will not I think many people would look at me and agree with that who know me. Me very well would say yeah, I don't know what goes on in Julie's mind most of the time. And with regards to parents is really interesting one because I, as you well know, I have a 13 year old son. So I see this from both perspectives really have both an education this and a parent. And I think it's really interesting what you've just said about the experiences parents have had during this pandemic. And I read a piece of research recently where they were talking, it was talking about how parents because they have worked at home with their children, they have picked up where they believe there are maybe some difficulties. Or conversely, parents who are who have already got children that are diagnosed with neurodiversity have recognised that there are certain strategies that they've been able to use, particularly I think around extending the time that the child may be asked to do something and and the colour of the paper and things like that is even down to the one to one kind of interaction can make a huge difference. Yeah. So so that's really, really important. But But I think one I think except the education system is not going to change quickly. Yes.
Debs 24:34
If it's anything to go by from a history lesson, we've got a long way to go.
Julie Bravery 24:38
The problem with education with the education system is it's it's not run by education. This it is run by people that are not education is and it is in a really clunky, immovable beast of a machine. And I remember when when I was first in headship If there was a running joke, that if the government were going to present a really good idea, it would take three to four years for that to get into school. Wow, that is mad, isn't it, it's mad, it's crazy. And if you think about it, we don't even have that anymore, you don't even have the benefit of that, because the world is changing. So quickly. Try to avoid the hype, if you're a parent, it's really difficult I know to be you can be pulled into the fear problem, especially from the media, get worried about being competitive with other other parents and about what that's going to mean. So keeping calm is really important. Your child is a wonderful human being, irrespective of what they end up coming out with, with exams. And they if you're neurodiverse, they think granted huge trends that are going to be a massive benefit in this world. And I think what I would like to just point out at this point is there was a piece of research done in 2003. And they found that 40% of all self made millionaire entrepreneurs, were dyslexic. Now, if you think at the time, they were saying that about one in 10 people were dyslexic. That's four times the national average. And that was 2003. And that is not including all the other non neurodiverse individuals that probably would have fit up. So I hate to, I hate to think I'd love to know what it is now it is now. Yeah, so nearly 80% of children that leave school are not diagnosed. Right? So that could even be an awful lot higher search, you know, what, if if no one's going to kind of take them on do it yourself? I mean, it you know, it, there's, there's so much capacity, I think, for neurodiverse individuals to make such a significant impact in this world. But if you're waiting on exam results to be the answer, and let's not get it wrong, some neurodiverse individuals will do very, very well in exams, and they will come out with good grades. But there will be an awful lot that don't. But it is not the end of the world. And the number one thing that makes the greatest difference in a child's life, whether they're neurodiverse or not, is having an advocate. Yes. So whoever that's a parent, or whether that's a teacher, or whether that's someone else. But actually, if I'm if I'm reaching out to parents, I will say you are very important. You have got to make sure your child understands that the system is broken. Yeah. Not they're not them. Yes, not the confidence out of a young child, it will go with them for life. If you can manage to bring them through it and do damage limitation with that. After education is finished, your child will have a greater chance of being successful, and finding their passion and doing well. If you're standing behind them and keep encouraging and helping.
Debs 28:27
Yeah, so important. So important, isn't it?
Julie Bravery 28:31
Brene Brown quote that she she said she said always best to be yourself and let the world catch up. So cool, really, really suits neurodiverse young people coming out of school, let the world catch up with you to not lower yourself to be where the world wants you to be
Debs 28:54
brilliant. I love that. Well, what a what a brilliant way to finish actually do because, you know, this is a huge topic. And I'm sure we'll speak again, as it evolves even more, but just to have that as that parting thought to just keep in your mind, and just move forward from it. And I just want to say a massive thank you, you know, not only, you know, you overcome, and you're talking about it with such passion, that actually I think it makes the difference. And you're talking from a place of understanding and empathy around it and being able to, to make the difference, I suppose. And as you said, you know, be your own advocate, but you're also advocates for others as well. So I just want to say a massive thank you for your time. And yeah, looking forward to speaking to you again, probably very soon about the book you're writing which I'll just leave that as a teaser. And we will go from there. But thank you for your time, Julie.
Julie Bravery 29:48
Thanks, Deb. It's been a delight. Thank you.
Debs 29:50
You're welcome. Thank you
Lau 29:56
My goodness Deb's Julie just gives us so much to think about When you listen to how she communicates such an important message, I think her take on how the future needs different thinkers was really inspiring. And as our colleague lens has said, dyslexia is only a curse in academia outside, it's an absolute gift. And it's the system that is broken rather than our children being broken on that that just really emotionally connected me with that thought was so powerful. So some of the key reflections in terms of what this means for the evolving world of work is, I guess, not only is there a moral drive to be prepared for Neuro divergence, but also the commercial diver behind it. Because if workplaces are not equipped to be able to enable people with different ways of thinking to flourish, then what trapped treasure may be kind of lost as a result of not having all of that diversity of thought. And because we can benefit from those, that how are we from people feeling free to be able to think in the way that works for their brain? I think in terms of a confidence boost for or anyone who identifies as being neurodivergent. Right now, your world needs you more than ever. So if you're not around the table, you're on the menu. I think it was really important what Julie was saying about getting involved in those conversations, nothing about us, without us, as a friend of mine says. And lastly, I think to anyone who themselves or family member, is currently in the process of getting an ehcp, or any of this kind of topic that directly impacts them is hanging on in there, because the tide of change has come in, more and more people are talking about this, and actually how it's really important for us to open up workplaces, to cater to neurodivergent, not only just to sort of help them cope, but to take advantage of all that amazing brainpower.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai