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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
207. Organise to Liberate Your Workload
In this 4-part mini-series we explore how to bring a bit of OOOO to your work life: Optimism, Opportunity, Outgoing & Organisation. Four different topics, we explore the mindset, behaviours and tips that bring these to life in everyday practice. In this third episode we explore what being organised looks like in practice.
When we are feeling busy or overloaded with commitments, a sense of being organised is essential for keeping well amid times of pressure or change. It means different things to people (eg having a strategic vs operational preference) and will be different for different people within a team (having an introvert vs extravert preference) which can lead to disorganisation moments when working with different people.
Taking a ‘one size fits one’ approach we take a fly-through Dr Stephen Covey’s classic ‘7 Habits of Highly Effective People’ and bring it up to date with current topics around hybrid working, transformational change and industry pressures.
A useful listen for anyone who knows they have a pressuring time ahead with competing priorities- or wants a shared language to get better organised as a team.
Organisational mindset a useful topic for you right now? Here are some relevant past episodes:
174. Prioritising Workload and Managing Expectations
170. Realistic Time Management for Hybrid Working
178. Thriving in a Busy Worklife
secrets from a coach thrive and maximize your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with debbie green of wishfish and laura thompson, stavely of phenomenal training Debs.
Speaker 2:Law, you all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Are you?
Speaker 1:sure, yeah, you know when you're going to focus on some content and you think am I qualified to be a person focusing on this content?
Speaker 2:Okay, Tell me more.
Speaker 1:Law. Well, we were really looking forward to this current four-part series and we thought it'd be fun if we put all the oohs together so I can bring a bit of ooh to your work, life and life in general. So we've been looking at optimism, we've been looking at focus and opportunity. The fourth part of this series is going to be about tips for outgoing people, outgoing for non-outgoing people, and this one, debs, is all about organisation. Yes, I love it, and being organised, yes, and how being organised can actually liberate your creativity, unleash your best self. And I do think sometimes, debs I've said this over the years, I think, certainly in the old days when I was a proper hardcore trainer you know, as well as being a facilitator, you're attracted to content that you need yourself.
Speaker 1:Yes, very much so, so, even though I might not practice it day by day, I have been obsessively reading about how do you organise your life? What does it mean to be an organised person? Because I think, naturally, I don't have that skill set.
Speaker 2:I think you do, laura. You make it happen just in time, I think. But yeah, it always has been, hasn't it? It's how do I get more organized? And I think it's probably getting a bit even more relevant. Literally, over the last couple of weeks, I think, I've had conversations with people about organizing their time, organizing their diary, how do they make sure that they have that break? When do they switch off from work? So, over the last couple of weeks, I don't know what's going on, but it feels like people are going oh, I haven't got time, or I'm not organised, or I'm just getting something done when before I might have given myself time and organised my week or my month or my year, and it's just sort of gone up in smoke. And it's interesting. Do you know what?
Speaker 1:Debs, listening to you, I realised how seductive and dangerous it is actually to get into a fixed mindset about the things that you're good at or not good at, yes, and just listening to you talk about how actually this might not be an individual failing on someone. This is just life as it is in this mid-decade point, and actually I think I'm going to make a commitment to myself to channel a growth mindset of I might not have been born with a set of organisation skills, but what baby is?
Speaker 1:I mean, these are habits and focus areas, so actually I'm kind of listening to you talk and if this resonates with anyone else, I think sometimes I might write myself off as not being a particularly organised person, but it's the behaviours you put into practice that day that says whether you're organised or not, rather than it being a personality trait.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and I think also, if you are one of those people that is like rushing to get things completed and then you're beating yourself up, you say, oh my God, if only I was more organised One, you're still achieving stuff, so let's just put that out there.
Speaker 2:You are still making it happen. However, the impact it might be having on your mind, health and your wellbeing could be huge, and you're putting potentially unnecessary pressure on you and actually just by taking a pause, breathing, really planning and thinking about what it is I'm looking towards for the next week, next month, next day, as long as you're stopping and doing some of that rather than go, I'm rubbish. I need to be more organized. We can be as you said. It's a habit and it's. If you want to feel better and you want to be liberated, then we're going to share some hints and tips that we know work that enable you to be your best self and be organized in different areas, not to the point where it's static and it holds you back, but just to know that you're in control of it.
Speaker 1:I think that's the key thing Right, debs, I'm fired up. Let's bring it on Go let's do it, I'm ready. Right, debs, you know we like a three-step, we do.
Speaker 1:So, step number one, we're going to explore what does it mean to be organised? So may I invite us both to conduct a little experiment, and as you listen, you don't need to write these words down, but what words spring into mind? So, debbie Green, yes, laura Thompson, stavely, thank you. Double the name, double the day rate. What five words do you associate with the word organisation?
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm writing my words Laura. Okay, so bullet point list Okay, done, I've got my five words.
Speaker 2:Okay, so bullet point list. Okay, done, I've got my five words.
Speaker 1:All right, you go first.
Speaker 2:I have got clear timely control. Happy achievement, what?
Speaker 1:have you got? Oh my God, they're so different from mine. Oh my God. Proactive ambition, calm, empowered, productive.
Speaker 2:Oh, they are so different.
Speaker 1:They are so different. Wow, aren't they? What does that tell us?
Speaker 2:though.
Speaker 1:Laura. Well, and also listening in what words came into mind. I mean, are our ones completely different to you? And I think that, almost like, demonstrates a really powerful first point it's different for everyone. Therefore, one size fits one, and what might help one person to be organized might actually be too restrictive for someone else. Or it takes the joy out, or it just doesn't feel like it's kind of natural to them. My husband and I have had a number of comedy conversations over the years around what it means to be organized, because I've been thinking about this as prep for this episode. I think probably my style of feeling organised or being organised is quite strategic and visionary, so I know where.
Speaker 1:I'm going in 10 years time.
Speaker 2:You do, laura, you're on it, the challenge is left to my own devices.
Speaker 1:I'd be late. For every single commitment that I've ever put in the diary so strategically, for every single commitment that I've ever put in the diary so strategically visionary, I'm there Tactically and operationally is where it can sometimes fall down, whereas he's almost the opposite. So he's on it. He can, you know, cook for loads of people and really organized and really enjoys it. But if you start asking him, so what's your 10 year plan? He sticks his finger in his ears and go, I don't know. I'm a shoot from the hip kind of guy.
Speaker 1:So what's really interesting is how there are. You know you can work and you can live and you can have great relationships with people who organise themselves in a different way, but there are individual differences around this. What do you see in the coaching room, debs? That just might be some interesting reflections when we think about what does it mean for us to be organised? What does it mean to be organised as a team, working with different styles, different people? What would be your roundup of some of the things that you think could be interesting reflections?
Speaker 2:I'm with Simon actually on that bit. I can organise. Don't ask me what I'm doing in five or 10 years time, although I do know I'm retiring at 73. Don't ask me why that's a random number. How am I going to get there there? I've no idea. But give me tomorrow and I'll be on it.
Speaker 2:So what I'm seeing in the coaching space is this dynamic between exactly what you just said two different styles and the way of approaching projects or tasks or things like that. Whereas one person might be wanting to look you know what's the impact of that in the long term? And the other person says you might say, well, what's the impact of that in the long term? And the other person might say, well, what's the impact of that for us now? So we look at that now, near future, and then we have to understand our different preferences in order for us to work better together. I think it's good that ideally, you would have a leader who does have one eye on the vision and where is it heading, but you also need that leader to be ready to flip and not get stuck into that. This is where we're going to do it.
Speaker 2:So the ability to pivot, I think, is really important when you're in it and the one the thing that comes out in coaching is you know, how can I get everything? And the language is really important here how can I get everything done in the time that I've got? And I always question people and say, okay, when you say everything, what do you mean? Because what we're doing is, if we're saying everything, always never and then we're sort of putting some restrictions around ourselves a bit, because will we ever get everything organized? No, probably not. Something will fall down. So we have to watch the language that we're saying to ourselves as well. So I always ask people to say what do you mean by everything?
Speaker 2:So we then break it down, and yesterday I was with somebody who's got a mind that is full of stuff literally full of stuff and they're missing tricks, as they said. They are not hitting all their deadlines, they're finding that they're focusing too far in the future and not doing what their boss wants them to do today, type thing. So we unloaded their brain basically. So we got loads and loads of post-its and we sat in this room and we literally got him to write everything that was in his mind, and I don't know how many post-its, hundreds of post-its and when you look at it and you put it up on the wall around you, that's what your brain's carrying.
Speaker 2:So then, to be able to organize that in a way that works for you, it's clearer because you've got sight of it and it's not competing for space in your head. So it is a real thing at the moment, because people are being set KPIs objectives, they're being set OKRs, whatever system that they use for objectives but if they're not specific enough, people can struggle with understanding. Do I do that now or do I do that in the end of the year? So that split between strategic and operational happens to all of us. But it's having a conversation. So getting it out, getting it out of your head what you're thinking, putting it out and then organising it so it makes sense for you, because as long as it makes sense for you, then you're likely more likely to achieve it.
Speaker 1:I'm curious is there a difference between how introverts and extroverts might create that sense of organisation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, great question In my experience, no, no, to some extent the extroversions amongst us will still be thinking what the difference would be, and so, therefore, introverts will still be thinking. So we'll still have things running through our heads, all of us. What's sometimes the difference is is that an extrovert sometimes forgets to say it out loud, and if they say it out loud they then think they've done it. An introvert will have it going in their head and then again think they've said it out loud, but maybe they haven't. So both of us have both introverts and extroverts have to then think okay, let me have a look at my plan so I can visualize it. So visualization can be a big help here, and whether you're introverted or extroverted, you can still organize yourself in a way that works for you. And I think that you might hear more potentially from an extrovert, because they'd be telling you what they're working on. An introvert may not always tell you what exactly they're working on. However, you'll see the results. So it'd be that quietly, just making it happen, making it happen. So if we're managing a team of potential more likely to be introverts and you happen to be an extrovert, then checking in how you're doing, what you're working on. How's that going? I've noticed that you've achieved that.
Speaker 2:When I looked at the tracker and even though you may not like a tracker as an extroversion preference, actually I'm an extroversion preference, yet I still like a tracker. I like to know where I'm an extroversion preference. Yeah, I still like a tracker. I like to know where I'm heading now. Whether that's my training, because I trained ambitionally as a PA, maybe, you know, as a secretary, so I had to be super organized. But I don't. Yeah, I don't know. It's something we can definitely learn for sure, and it makes us feel so much better Fascinating.
Speaker 1:I think it's absolutely fascinating, especially when you start to look at individual differences and how that might sort of play out, and I'm guessing we could have had this conversation 50 years ago.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is just you know, since we've organized mass working.
Speaker 1:You know industrial revolution, we've had to be organized and arrive at a place at the same time. But what I think are some interesting nuances that are happening now is you've got hybrid working, where more people might be working unwatched and therefore that level of self-organization is going to be even more important because you might be carrying that stress alone rather than that sort of satisfaction that you might be feeling. The other challenge is, even if you've got a really a BA, business as usual type role, an operational type role, a lot of industries are going through lots of transformational change at the moment. So even someone who has, maybe quite every day is different because I'm on a shift, but there still might be new faces to build relationships, new processes to get your head around. So I think there's a lot of busyness that's going on in the world of work at the moment and put on top of that societal factors around commuting, around elder care, childcare, pet care, all of those different spheres of our life that then mean how do I ensure that I arrive at that 10 o'clock meeting, feeling on it and kind of set up for success?
Speaker 1:Which is why we thought it might be cool to look at the golden oldie of Dr Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. If you've come across it before, you'll know just how relevant it is for today's life. If you haven't come across it before, it's probably one of the most referred to personal development, professional development books ever really. So we thought that might be useful just to give a bit of a quick roundup and then bring it to modern day in terms of what that means to be effective, and organisation runs through as that kind of key habit throughout. Yeah, so Debs, go on, laura. Imagine I'm imagining it's 1993. You've got Carly and Jason on in the background, you're wearing your RR skirt and you're reading a new book that you've bought yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And this book was written by Stephen Covey, who later on would become a doctor, and this book was called Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Yes, circulation it has been an ongoing bestseller and there was loads of workshops and programs that were put together. And you'll probably recognize if you haven't sort of read the book you'll recognize some of those tips and tricks around organization that just seeped into everyday life. And his idea was not everyone wants to drive a Ferrari, be top of the pile, have these huge big lives that you know look like they're the pinnacle of success but actually inside, underneath, that real kind of experience of life may not be particularly effective. So he set out on a mission to what are some of the habits that effective people do to lead an effective life where you have good outcomes, good relationships, where it's a sense of actually I'm leading a good life.
Speaker 1:So he looked at this, loads and loads of research and came up with these seven habits of highly effective people. So should we kind of whiz through those habits and just pause at each one in terms of what that might mean for sort of day to day? Yeah, definitely. So. Habit one be proactive. Oh, yes, and this is the very first chapter, which is, in short, take account for yourself, assume responsibility and be the adult, I guess, in terms of how you interact. So if you are finding that you are arriving at every commitment in your life not in a sense of feeling organized, whatever those five words are that it means to you, and there's only one person in this world that can make that change Debs, Isn't that?
Speaker 2:right, it is, and that one person is you, oh.
Speaker 1:Do you mean I can't keep blaming everyone for all these things that are getting? In my way no.
Speaker 2:I think that's why, actually, laura, you made me think, as you were talking earlier, when you think about the Filofax. Do you remember when that came and hit back in the 80s and everybody had a, had a file of facts which they were trying to keep to organize their lives? And I just think we're always trying to find a way to organize our lives, aren't we? So we are being proactive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, find the one that works for you exactly whether you're wearing shoulder pads or a lounge suit, whatever, whatever the uh, the uh, the generation you're in. So devs be proactive. Now I can't tell you the amount of times that this little circle of influence, circle of concern, has come out and that's where that little baby came from, that first habit. So I bet you've seen it before. But that circle in the middle, which is this is the stuff I can do something about in my life, the things I can influence, and the circle around the edge, which is the circle of concern. This is the stuff that kind of bugs me or I worry about or it plays on my mind. Could I ask you just to join the dots up to that exercise you did with someone yesterday where all the post-it notes went out? How useful was that habit around? Let's be proactive. What are the things we can actually do versus not do? So just kind of give us a real life anecdote of how that habit helped that person in that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it really did actually, dawn. Now you're putting that lens on it. I think we just did that without thinking. What came out of that was then when we'd organised or he'd organised it in pillars, as he put it.
Speaker 2:There was some stuff there that he had no control over and no influence over, because it was happening way outside of his work and you watched him just sort of breathe, take a breath and go. I don't have to really worry about that because I've got no control over what that's going to happen. So he was able to park that rather than still have it floating around and the bits he found that he could. I said that's a quick win, I can do that tomorrow. And he started to write his own little action list as to what he was going to put and do tomorrow. He ended up with about seven things that were quick, easy, he could lead, he could be proactive with and, oh my God, he just felt so much better at the end of it and, as I said, he let go of the stuff that he had no control over. But I don't think he would have necessarily done it had we not done that big post-it exercise to see what he was carrying in his mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, lovely. So if this appeals to you, you could post it, note it out, you could draw it out, you could write it out. And then, if you imagine there are two circles, what can I actually do that I have influence over and what is out of my circle of influence, and therefore I can either choose to keep having that going around in my mind, but if actually that is impacting my capacity to have space to think about other stuff, then I can choose to sort of let it be. For example, if I'm sitting here worrying about my projects I'm not sure what the government are going to do with interest rates Then at some point that is going to carry a weight and a load. That then means, as Covey said, you're less likely to have then the space and capacity to be proactive because you're so bogged down by all of these worries and concerns that you can't do anything about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. It's so true, isn't it? What can I do right now, in this moment, to change it? Move it forward, add to it, not do it. That that control is within us. What can I do now?
Speaker 1:Habit two Go on Now this one. I can remember being so. I think I was 18 at the time when someone I'm so grateful to them gave me this book to read and it was a real poignant one because at the time I had just lost a schoolmate due to an illness and, oh God, it was just as terrible at the time and I think at the time reading this chapter, it just felt very poignant. And the second habit is begin with the end in mind, and the exercise that COVID gets you to do when you read this book is imagine it's at your funeral. What do you want people to say about you? Who do you want to be there?
Speaker 1:And oh, it just gets you right in the guts because it's a big question, especially if you're asking yourself at 18, I am just so grateful to have had that big lens put in at that stage of my life because I think it enables you to carry the daily stresses a little bit lightly. Will you remember it in 50 years time, the fact that someone sent that email and you wish they hadn't? And it enables you to then ruthlessly prioritize how do I want to spend my time? Who am I going to say yes to who am I going to say no to? So I think it's great to hear your thoughts, debs, on where you have seen that habit, help people manage boundaries in their life, which is such a big topic, and how that can really impact being organised.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and we use that in coaching, where we say start with the end in mind as well. So, coaching, it's really important to know where you're heading towards and therefore, whether you're going to get there or not, that's not the question. It's more of what do you want in your life, what do you want your life to be about? And when we ran a series of Purpose and Values workshops, we were getting people to fast out to 90s sitting on the terrace rocking chair. What's your chapters of your life going to be about? And it is really, really thought provoking.
Speaker 2:It's a super deep question when you go into that level of detail, but sometimes you can do it just in the moment. So by saying, well, what do you want to happen as a result of this? So, in effect, you're getting them to go to the end goal, and that might be the end goal for this week or in that moment on that conversation. And then they go well, actually, I want it to be like this what's the outcome you want? Well, I want this as an outcome. Great. So let's go back to right here, right now. How might you go and get that so you can do it long term when you're 90. You can do it in that moment in a conversation which I use a lot in coaching as well that says okay, so what difference do you want to see which is similar to start with the end in mind, so the different variations of it. But you can get somebody thinking forward to a point in time that then goes okay. So if that's what you want, let's come back to today. How might you go about getting that?
Speaker 1:Oh, love it.
Speaker 2:And that's what we do in coaching ultimately move you from A to B. And then we look at the how. How might you do that? What might stop you? It's such a good tool to use and I say I use it in variations, but it is that second habit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, begin with the end in mind, begin with the end in mind, and then I guess what that enables you to do is convert from fixating on the problem and then thinking, well, actually, what do I want instead, which is again another way of asking it, and therefore, what does that mean I then need to do, which then just fits really beautifully into the third habit, which is first things first.
Speaker 1:So in what order do I do this? And this is where he played around with the Eisenhower's matrix. So the urgent, important. And whenever someone brings this out in like a team session, so invariably three or four times a year, someone will go.
Speaker 1:Oh, I use this, it's really good. And then you see everyone else kind of go oh my God, what magic witchcraft is this? And you know it's, which is why I think it's a really practical skill, no matter what type of role you've got, no matter what type of life you've got. And imagine you've got four boxes and it's a way for you to allocate tasks. In which order? So you've got quadrant one, which is the things which are all urgent and important. They have to be dealt with right now. They can't be kind of put off.
Speaker 1:You've then got quadrant two, which is the things that are not urgent but they're important, and classically these are things like relationship building activities, planning in one-to-ones, spending some reflection time each week even though you could be doing other things with that hour but dedicating that time so you can feel on it rather than caught up in it. And then quadrant three is the stuff that is urgent but not important. So maybe you've got a vacancy in your team at the moment and everyone's having to do things that are outside their normal job parameters, but that wouldn't be ideal to be keeping on doing that like for the whole time. And then quadrant four is the not important, not urgent. So, for example, Debs me, knowing that I need to do a bit of detailed financial work, suddenly I feel the urge to organise my stationry cupboard. It's not urgent, I could do it like literally never, and it's not important given what my goal?
Speaker 1:to me, given what that goal should be. So what that could sometimes is that's the procrastination zone, because really what I should have been doing is not leaving it to the last moment to then make it stressful, yeah, which is why the main thing that Covey said that has always sort of stuck with me is the most effective. People spend most of their time in quadrant two, focusing on the things that are important, but they do it before it starts to get urgent, and then that means you've got capacity to step up if there is, you know, something urgent that needs to kind of take place. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think you're right, law, I think when you see that, well, you see it all the time, I think when you're, but it is an oldie. As you said, it is an oldie and I think, rather than pull out the grid, sometimes we just ask some questions of around as a coach, you know so, how important is that goal that you set yourself for you? So you start to explore with them, you know, whatever goal they've set, how important it is for them, because sometimes you get, you set yourself a goal and it's not really important, and you go well, why are you going to spend potentially time doing that? And they go yeah, no, it's not really important to me, but I thought I'd put it down as a goal. And they go, but are you going to do it? Well, no, not really. And so it's really interesting to then question how important is that to you? And they will tell you yes or maybe not.
Speaker 2:And then, how urgent is it? How quickly do you want to make this happen? And then that can be a bit of a realistic check-in with them, because somebody we always use the thing about I want to run a marathon. Okay, it's important, because I'm running for a charity that's really close to my heart, so it's very important. How urgent is it? Well, I want to do it by this. You know this marathon season, so I want to be able to do it. Oh, maybe in November I'll run in New York or whatever.
Speaker 2:Whenever they do that one and you go, okay. So that's important. I can hear it's urgent. Now Tell me the training that you're putting in to get you there and it's like, well, I'm started, oh, okay. So then that gives you that little realizing, the recognition and check-in with them that says, okay, let's explore how you're going to turn yourself from a couch potato to a 26-point-whatever-mile runner in three weeks. Oh yeah, maybe that's a bit, you know, maybe it's a bit unattainable, but I can do it next year. Absolutely you can. So it's the questioning around it. So it's a bit of a you know, check in with them to go realistically. Are you going to do it? You?
Speaker 1:know I love that, debs, so I guess it gives it a bit of a mirror moment, that then means, you can then be proactive.
Speaker 1:You've begun with the end in mind and you're then able to put first things first, which is, I need to buy some trainers and I need to actually have that sort of sense of organisation, the think win-win. So give me an example of this. So how I mean? I know kind of the theory about think win-win, but am I right in thinking from an organisation point of view, it might mean investing five minutes at the start to catch up with a colleague on what are you working on? What am I working on? Oh, you're having a meeting with that stakeholder. I'm looking to get in there with them. Yes, could you mention X, y, z? Yeah, and then that's good for them because it shows that they're connected and it's good for you because it shows you know. You're getting a bit of a kind of a relationship warmed up. So is that an example of where think win win would be, which is actually, how can we work smarter on this together? Yes, in how we organise, how we go about our day to day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. That's a really good example of it, laura, because it should be that you know you win, I win. So that is a bit of respect, really, that I respect. Mutual respect can go on there. So we're working towards something together, but that takes conversations to happen. You need to communicate what that win looks like what does that look like for you, what does that look like for me and then work together on something. So, if you get it right, you see a change in teams, especially in group coaching teams. Around collaboration is better, Communication is clearer, there's more meetings or more check-ins with to say how's that project going. This is when I need your support, so it's mutually beneficial for both parties. And when people get that, you can see people thrive, both as an individual, but also knowing that they've supported the team and the team are successful, which ultimately drives an organizational success. And those that do it really well are I've seen in the past are leaders that are very much.
Speaker 2:Let's take a moment to see what we both want out of here and then agreeing how we can move that forward and that conversation upfront, setting the scene, putting the tone in place, knowing what we both want. They're the ones that get the results because they're listening to what that person wants. Is it aligned, is it not? And then if it is great. If it's not, then that's another part of the conversation you can have. So it just is all about communication with people, and that's where win-win comes in. This is what I want. What do you want? Great, we're on the same page. How do we make it happen? This is what you want, this is what I want. Oh, we're slightly misaligned here. So how can we have a conversation to align us as much as possible so that we're both winning from this conversation?
Speaker 1:Love it. I mean, what a useful habit in terms of that sense of being collectively organised if you're working in a hybrid setup. It also, I guess, just generates that sense of belonging, which is a key indicator of whether someone's engaged in their role or not. And you're far less, from an operational point of view, less likely to procrastinate and not be kind of on it in that prep session, let's say, because you know you're mutually responsible for the outcome as well. And I think that's the other benefit is it just creates that sense of teamwork in that moment, which means you're sort of aware that you've got responsibility to others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it stops them and us coming into it as well because of what you've just said. It stops that them and us going on, which is not a healthy space to be if you're in a team, because then that drives those negative, egotistical behaviors as well. Well, I'm gonna not share my knowledge, I'm gonna keep it all to myself.
Speaker 1:You know all of that all of that stuff so yeah, which kovi was telling us 25 years ago is probably not the most effective way to lead one's professional life?
Speaker 2:Not really.
Speaker 1:We're co-laboring. You know we are stronger together. We're able to achieve more, yeah, and I just think actually the example you use just sits really nicely with the fifth out of the seven habits, which is seek first to understand, then to be understood. So first really listen, yes, and then make recommendations, and whether it's an example of actually tell me what's on your plate and then we can then chat it through in terms of what's on mine.
Speaker 1:The example I've been given recently, which I can sort of see people going, oh, that's really handy actually is, let's say, you're the type of person with whom enjoys helping others. What impact does that enjoyment of having long conversations with people potentially have on your ability to be organised? And that's where I have learned, because I've got a real people pleaser driver that can potentially sort of kick in if someone says I really want to ask your advice on something and I'm like forget the clock, forget all my to-do list, I'm in, and then an hour later going oh my God, I'm not as prepared, as I needed to be, and I've learned this kind of useful little tool.
Speaker 1:I bet I picked it up from you or one of our team, which is. Before I go straight into advice giving mode, I now will ask with a you know, sure I'd love to what advice have you received already or what's your thinking so far? And then just a little listen to what they've said, thinking that's better than what I would have come up with, and then saying I think that sounds like brilliant advice.
Speaker 2:What's?
Speaker 1:going to help. You put that in and it converts what could be an hour of a conversation that doesn't actually arrive at that person anymore, set up for success, into maybe a 10 minute conversation where that person just feels really empowered with the simple switch of before I tell you my stuff to tell you how to lead your life actually. Let me ask first, and if I seek to understand what your thoughts are so far, then actually we can have a much more organized approach to how we resolve that problem. So that would be my little sort of behavioral link to not only is it at the start of a meeting or something formal, you know what's your understanding here. Actually I think in those little informal conversations that can take up more time than actually the return on investment you give. So this isn't about not helping people, but it's about empowering people and having an effective conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely I'm with you. That is exactly it flipping it back over to them, as I call it. Put the question back to them, because that also law in that moment will, depending on what they then say it will. You're in your mind then saying, right, okay, this is definitely going to take longer than an hour. This is still, yeah, this is a five minute fix type thing, but then what it enables you to do is then keep your boundaries and say, okay, what I'm hearing, or what I believe you're looking for, that is going to take us a bit longer than what we've got right now.
Speaker 2:So let's book something in. So, therefore, you're organizing it and booking something in where that time you're giving is equal time. You both win, because there's nothing worse than going oh, yeah, I can do it. And then you're watching the clock because you know you've got another call coming or you've got to be somewhere else and that person's in flow. You feel really weird trying to shut them down and that's not the relationship you want.
Speaker 2:So that ask first yeah, what is it you're looking for? What advice have you had before? I love that Can give you time to organize yourself as well as to yeah, I can do it now, or I'll tell you what. Let's put something in so I can give you quality time, I can absolutely be completely focused on what you need, and then should we book that in now? So you're still being proactive and you're still turning it into an action which you can control.
Speaker 2:So it's really what is the best question ever? What does that mean for you? What's your understanding of that? All of those lovely what questions? I love them, and I sort of shared this with somebody last week who's trying to make sure that they give the best to their people without giving too much away. They have got to prove themselves that they are a good manager and instead of asking why and really upsetting loads and loads of people, we just had the conversation I shared within the lovely question triangle and then changed his language to what, and I saw him yesterday and he said oh my God, what is amazing. He said why do I not know this in my 55 years of being on this planet? Why has nobody ever told me use what instead of why?
Speaker 2:And he said the difference is mad, and it was that one thing. So what is your gift? Use it.
Speaker 1:And you know that just links really nicely to habits six and seven. So six is synergize Together you're stronger than alone. Yes, so by being asking those to say to someone I really want to put some proper time to it, let's meet up again. You might have a better quality conversation because they've had some reflection time, you're a bit prepared. And the idea of synergise is two plus two equals seven. One plus one equals three. So actually how can we kind of get a greater win here? And just your example there of that person thinking why am I, 55 years, why not thought of this? Links to his final habit, which is sharpen the saw.
Speaker 1:So this comes from the story of someone that is in one field. They never stop. They are constantly using the same saw to cut down all these trees. The person in the field next to them is cutting down trees, but every half an hour they're stopping and resting. And then they get to the end and guess what? The person that stopped and rested has cut down far more trees than the person that didn't stop. The person that didn't stop goes. I don't understand it. I didn't stop once and yet you've cut more trees than me. What's happened? And the person who'd stopped every half an hour and said every time I stopped I sharpened the saw.
Speaker 1:So I was keeping as effective on my 10th year in this role as I am on my 10th day in this role, and the idea being, I mean, things like this podcast are like that, aren't they?
Speaker 1:I mean, there's just so much education out there and the idea is that every now and then, just stopping and sharpening your saw which is a metaphor for keeping your continuing professional development up to speed, investing in yourself so that you're not just getting more and more fatigued as the years go on and sometimes those little illuminating tips like switch, the type of question that you ask can just unlock and liberate all of this kind of opportunity. But you have to be organized to have the time to do this proactive stuff and I guess that's the link to what we've been covering on this episode is how do I organize my mindset, responsibilities, whether it's the seven habits and just some of the practical things we've linked to that in a way that means, if I've got a lot of wood going on in my life, a lot of trees, how do I kind of get above that so I can see the wood for the trees and have a sense of organisation, in whatever way that means for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that and it is, as you said, those seven habits. There is an eighth habit, but the seventh habits are. They've been around and revisiting them every now and again and I think it's really important. I think it's been slightly rewritten as well over time, so it moves, the language moves with the timings as well, but I just think it's so simple and that's what I love about that, which is probably why it's a bestseller around the world 20,000 times over probably is because it's really simple and you can apply it in your life, your work life, your professional life, your friendship life, and it I just love it. I got introduced to it as well, like way back in, you know, when he first issued it, and it was like mind blowing that somebody had accumulated all of that wisdom from loads of different areas probably, and just put it down into seven habits which we, we can all practice. It's within our gift to do so I love it.
Speaker 1:And Debs, you just inspired me. I was at a quick look, the eighth habit, because there's no way I could not have that answered in my mind. The eighth habit that he brought out later in later editions, was find your vice voice, find your vice find your vice gambling drinking. Find your voice that was the ninth habit.
Speaker 1:Find your voice and inspire others to find theirs. Yeah, so lovely, debs. I think that links to my share the secret, and then we'll hear your call to action. If you know someone else in your life struggles with that sense of organisation and kind of has written themselves off as not being a particularly organised person, like I did at the start of this episode, allow yourself to take yourself in hand. Be proactive. There's only one person in this world that can sort out their own way in which they organize things, which is themselves Get them to listen to this. As a nonjudgmental light, take on what is a real hot topic of our time. So, to bring a bit of ooh to your life, this one was all about organization to liberate your brilliance and liberate your workload. All about organisation to liberate your brilliance and liberate your workload. Debs O'Coach, let's convert wishful thinking to tangible action. What would be your call to action around being organised?
Speaker 2:My call to action would be I think I like start with the end in mind. What is it that I'm actually wanting to achieve here? Ask yourself that question. So ask that first and then work out have you got the capacity, have you got the time, have you got the knowledge? Could you get support and then take that moment to just work it through? So then you can put a plan in place and you can organize that over a week, a month, a year, so that it's always there on your radar. So yeah, ask yourself that. What is it that I want to achieve? Then get organized to achieve it as long as it matters to you. If it doesn't matter, we're less likely to do it, so it's got to have some importance to you as well. So it brings in all of these seven habits in one way or another. But start with the end in mind. What do you want to achieve and how do you want to feel? Love it, deb. That's my other one.
Speaker 1:Actually, capture that and then do it. We have got a number of episodes that kind of link around this idea of time management. So we'll make a link in the overview about some specific time management, operational habits thing and then can help. But I've really enjoyed this conversation, Debs, and it's a little bit like when Elvis, when George Michael, when all of these, like you know, really inspiring musicians from the past, when you hear that music you think, oh God, it's a golden but it's an oldie and I think Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, wherever it kind of pops up in different ways, is it's just really useful, whatever stage of your career you're at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm in complete agreement with you, lauren. Yeah, to the point where I've got a sign in my hall that says what would Elvis do, so you could change that. I've got one in here that says what would Dolly do for Dolly Parton, so you can channel someone else to decide. So maybe that you know what would Laura do in that moment and you can channel Laura as you're listening to this. What would Laura do? Oh, yeah, she'd do that.
Speaker 1:Then you can do it yeah, channeling that knife habit off to the casino with a glass of champagne in hand?
Speaker 2:who says that's wrong? Who says that right? Just enjoy.
Speaker 1:It's a quadrant two activity it's a quadrant two absolutely oh god I've loved this.
Speaker 2:this has really inspired me to just just go back and reflect and think about what is on my to-do list and I'm thinking I'm never going to get it done. I think this has really just given me that refresh on. Yeah, if I start with the end in mind, we might say this but do we practice it all the time? Maybe I'll put that into practice now. Yes, debs, love it.
Speaker 1:Sharpen the saw.
Speaker 2:We can do this Sharpen the saw. We can, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Have a gorgeous week. I can't wait for our fourth and final focus in this four-part focus looking at how to bring a bit of ooh to your work life.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And this final O is going to be about embracing outgoing moments. Tips for non-outgoing people. Yes, so we've lost track of the amount of times people have said do you run a finance for non-financial managers? Course, yes. And all of our collective eyes glaze over and go oh, that's probably not our sweet spot.
Speaker 2:I know someone that does, though. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we could have sold that course umpteen times over, and we sort of wanted the equivalent for this, which is how to embrace outgoing moments for non-outgoing people. So we're going to have a really interesting conversation around that. Deb, have a brilliant week. I've loved this conversation, you too.
Speaker 2:You have a good one, Lauren. Love you lots. Love you Bye.
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