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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
209. Workplace Reality: Accepting Uncertainty and Surfing Chaos
Join us in our 5-part season where we take a mid-decade moment to reflect on the hot topics around workplace cultures in reality (the good, the bad and the ugly). Taking a practical 'how to' approach we take a behind the scenes look at the modern realities of working life and what this means to thrive in the second half towards 2030. This first episode takes a look at the growing reality that there may not be a 'settling down' phase soon. Rather than that reality cause further stress, let’s reframe and accept it and remind ourselves of what we can do.
We explore how it is part of human nature to want to be able have certainty in our lives in order to predict circumstances and therefore increase our chances for survival/success. The challenge is that most industries, professions and sectors are still in a state of flux - or are about to head into further change. With change comes challenge as well as opportunity; and although we may know this on a logical level, it can affect us deeply at an emotional level. As many engagement surveys are suggesting, uncertainty can impact our sense of belonging, trust and willingness to continue putting in effort.
We share our FAR approach for helping self and others to keep focused on the long game, and to remind ourselves that the quicker we can accept something for what it is, the easier things will be for us. What's important is to maintain our personal standards and ethics as it is our reputation that will endure long after the current wave of change.
Rather than fighting the waves, grip onto that surfboard and remind ourselves just how valuable each day is.
Curious? You might like some of these earlier episodes:
Ep. 183 Career Diversity Gives You Choices Later
Ep. 165 The Stoic Approach for Success During Changing Times
Ep. 148 Managing People Well on the Change Rollercoaster
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, you all right? Yeah, I'm really all right. I'm really looking forward to this five-part series. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm all right as well, and I must admit, I've been looking forward to this as well, because when we started to think about our themes, this one was like whoa, let's do it. And it's going to either turn people on, turn people off, get you thinking, hopefully. Get you thinking, maybe considering what you could do to watch out for, and this is, I suppose, us looking into that future focus really, which I know is right up your street law.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it spawned from a conversation around what are we seeing around us at the moment?
Speaker 1:And then we kind of sort of looked at the calendar and thought, oh my goodness, at the point of recording, we are going to be at the brink of the first half of this shape-shifting decade coming to a close and that transition between 2024, 2025, we are, then looking we're closer to 2030 than we are to 2020. And just look at all the gifts and challenges and strenuous work that was required at the start of this decade and we thought it might be quite an empowering topic to look at, which is at this mid-decade point. Let's just have a scan and look on the horizon of what we're seeing are some top themes, some hot topics in the world of work and particularly around workplace cultures.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and I think that looking forward that's something you've always done. I always remember you talking about. You know, get ready, 2030 is not that far away and now it isn't. And I think that's the bit, even though you were talking about that five years ago, if not before that law, it was like what would 2030 look like? And I'm thinking Jesus, that is just here. It's not far away.
Speaker 1:So it's five Christmases away, Debs Five.
Speaker 2:Christmases away. Gosh, that's even more scarier, isn't it? What's that? That's like 30 paydays away. You know, oh my god, when you whoa big stuff right, when you break it down like that, it just makes you go. What am I going to do? How am I going to navigate my way through it, recognize what I have managed so far and being able to overcome any things that might be coming your way, and and how we can hit that next bit and thrive? I think we always talk about thriving, not just surviving and hanging on for dear life. And I think we always talk about thriving, not just surviving and hanging on for dear life, and I think that's the bit that's going to just get you thinking, which is what we do, right, laure? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And this isn't to wish time away, no, this isn't by, you know, looking at 2030, it's then wishing you were there already. It's more, I think, deb, it's just a massive dollop of a gratitude check. So actually, you know, when I think bigger picture, sometimes it enables you to just be a little bit less caught up in the day-to-day irritants. The other thing as well is, I think it can empower you to be a bit more courageous. So if you are not happy in your job and actually the years are rolling on, I think it's also an empowering moment to think, actually, is this all right by me? Because you know we can put up with some things, maybe for a couple of years, but a decade of feeling like your skills are not being utilised, that's that, that there's potentially, you know some other ways that you could sort of look at that. So I think that's always our sort of joy we get from this podcast is because we can run a bit feral, debs, because it's just us and our carefully selected guests. We, you know, we sort of can sort of say it how it is really, you know, always in a empowering, optimistic and considered way. But what we thought would be good is so the topic of this first one is we're seeing all around us just people being jolted left, right, centre with all of these changes that are still continuing. So the focus we're going to have on this one is accepting the uncertainty and embracing the chaos, and I know you've got some really practical tools that can help with that. We're also seeing around us as well, a lot of examples of bosses behaving badly and the impact a bad boss can have on people's mental health, their sense of esteem, their sense of self-worth. So we're really looking forward to our interview with an amazing guest next week, which is going to be looking at some tools and techniques for overcoming bad boss trauma. We're also seeing that there are people are behaving badly, so teams turning in on each other or not behaving in a way that sets other people up for success. So we've got another guest who's going to be sharing their tips on how to recover from maybe not an easy team experience and what that means then to reclaim that confidence and be able to fly in your next role. We're also seeing, too, that I mean we knew it was going to happen, but we've got lots of generations of work workers now, of people who are legally able to work. So we're seeing around us in terms of diversity and inclusion and all those types of things. Actually, age is rearing its head every now and then, just even concepts of who has a better work ethic. You know which generation has a better work ethic. So I'm really looking forward to the conversation we're going to have around. Actually, if we bring compassion to how we work, then that's the unlocker for multi-generational working.
Speaker 1:And then our fifth and final topic looks at. You know, many organisations are asking people to pull out the bag. Great customer service, good level of sales interaction. So to keep the kind of the heartbeat going while there's lots of change. So our fifth episode. We're going to have a brilliant guest talking about how customer service is an inside job. So get, get it right from an internal service culture point of view and you're far more likely to be able to put that out genuinely yeah to your, to your customers. So I'm really looking forward to this, deb. So what are you seeing in your coaching space and the one-to-one conversations, whether formal or informal? That gives you a bit of a feel for what's going on at this mid-decade point.
Speaker 2:Well, all of that stuff you've just mentioned is cropped up in various conversations anyway, but in particular this chaotic sense that's going on because the change, the uncertainty, and I think people are not quite sure how to navigate their way through that which keeps them healthy but also looks after them and also looks after their teams if they're managing a team. So it feels like where there's a bit of unsettledness. Even if that's not a word, but anyway we'll use it. I think that, as you said, the beginning was all about how do we get through the lovely P word, the pandemic. We did, and now we're into this bit.
Speaker 2:So I think there's people are still trying to find their groove again as to what does that look like.
Speaker 2:So there is a little bit of this uncertainty going on for people a lot and therefore that's driving in some a bit of lack of confidence.
Speaker 2:It's driving some not sure what their next step should be and they're not sure about their job, where they want to stay, should they stay, should they go. They're not taking, some of them are not taking that leap of faith to change their jobs or careers because of the uncertainty of what if that job goes down the pan. So there's all these questions, I think, that are floating around in people's minds that we've just been creating spaces for them to explore and have a chance to maybe look at some options and things. So it is a really interesting time to be in the world that we are, and especially in those one-to-ones, because I probably hadn't appreciated how, I suppose how worried and concerned some people are about their organisation and I suppose because we have our own businesses so we're not in a corporate, so I think we don't necessarily see that as much, but certainly in the conversations I'm having it just makes you think okay, that's interesting, let's explore that. So yeah, it's brilliant.
Speaker 1:Okay. So let's take a deeper dive with reference to accepting the uncertainty, embracing the chaos. So if that was kind of our motto for this first episode in this season, let's have a look at what might be going on with reference to this concept of dealing with uncertainty. Yeah, okay. So, debs, I always remember a little meme that I found. There was an image I put in into one of our virtual webinars that we did right at the height of the pandemic back in 2020. Yeah, and it really stuck with me and it prompted some really interesting conversations around dealing with uncertainty.
Speaker 1:So the phrase is by a guy called John Findlay and it says maturity is the capacity to accept uncertainty. Nice, and it says maturity is the capacity to accept uncertainty and this idea that part of growing up, the difference between childhood and adulthood is this acceptance that you can't know everything and not everything that has been set as a plan is going to happen. And it breaks your heart sometimes and it upsets you and it creates emotion, but part of that sort of teenage coming of age is being able to reconcile yourself with the fact that, just because it's Christmas, not everything is a guarantee that it's going to happen. You know, you get to the other side of sort of adulthood, you go, oh, oh, okay, we are Christmas, right, okay, fine, so, anyway. So the bit around kind of the capacity to endure uncertainty, that stuck with me, and then we did lots of stuff around. How you know, I think it's still the same now. The richest organizations on the stock exchanges around the world are not the ones that deal with fuel and oil, they're the ones that deal with data. So data is more precious than any other resource or currency around the world, such is a human thirst to understand what's going on now to be able to better predict tomorrow.
Speaker 1:And the third thing I just wanted to get your thoughts on, because I know it prompts some interesting conversations in workshops, if we ever sort of bring it. It was a fascinating piece of research that looks at people's stress levels when they are stuck on a train, and I think we've talked about this before actually on one of our earlier podcasts, but it was around how, actually, if people are kept in the know, so if the driver gets over the intercom and says just to let you know I'm waiting for a da-da-da, then actually people are okay to be stuck in that space because they know they've got a bit more information in terms of what's going on. So what is it about us humans that have this desire to know? Well, when's the change happening? What change is happening? Who's going to be impacted?
Speaker 1:What is it that lends itself to that and, in your experience as a coach working with people in those scenarios, what's your sort of advice for anyone that is feeling a bit swept up in it all at the moment?
Speaker 2:I think it's about being able to, if you like, predict the future. As humans, we really want to have some level of certainty as to what's coming and we want to know that, actually, whatever it is, we're safe as much as we can be. So, therefore, the more we have an understanding or a bit of knowledge, the more we can predict how we're going to deal with that, what we're going to do, how we're going to be, what impact will that have. So therefore, we can then put a plan in place that then enables us to take action. So therefore, we're in control in inverted commas of that change. So it's the ability to predict the future, whether it's the rest of the next day, it's the week, it's the weekend, and of course, as you alluded to, life doesn't happen that way. It sends us curveballs. So therefore, it sort of sends us off into this fight or flight response. Right, I don't know what's going on. And therefore, in the absence of any understanding or knowledge or communication, we make it up, and we, nine times out of 10, we'll make up worst case scenario, because then we're preparing ourselves for the worst case scenario. And when it's not, we go oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought. But it's just our human nature to survive, to be able to know that we go. Oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought, but it's just our human nature to survive, to be able to know that we can survive, whatever normally what gets thrown at us, but it's the not knowing. So we want more information.
Speaker 2:So the data gathering is amazing. I may not know enough. I need to know everything. I have to be on top of my game. I have to be the fountain of all knowledge. I have to be the guru that people come to. This drive, which is a sense of perfection as well, to know that I'm not going to be caught out, I'm not going to be left high and dry, I'm the one that people are going to still come to, and it can drive some crazy behaviors in us, whereas sometimes we need to just take a pause and say, okay, what's happening right now, what's in your control, what is out of your control? What influence do you have over whatever it is you're being faced with, and what are some of the givens as well.
Speaker 2:We talk about what are some of the givens, some of the things that we just have no control over, and there are others that we do so, that ability to recognize when you're racing, as I call it, looking for the certainty. Why don't I know that? Why haven't they told us they're making 400 people redundant? What does that mean for me? It can drive the behavior of being alone. Sometimes nobody cares about me. I don't matter.
Speaker 2:They, the words, they always come up. We hear that all the time, don't we? They haven't told us. Okay, well, who are they? Well, my boss? So have you spoken to your boss? No, well, should we start there? And it's what we can do about it? That's within our gift, rather than just hope and just wait for it to happen. And I just think it's fascinating that. I think we've always been like that, but it's more heightened. It feels at the moment there's more awareness around what's going on around the world, not just in the UK, but I think also when you're watching I know Lindsay always talks about this, our colleague she always talks about doom scrolling. How often are you watching the news and getting caught up in what's going on in the world and then you become overstimulated by it and then you worry about stuff incessantly. So she said take a news detox if you don't want to focus on what you can do in this moment, in your space, in your environment, for you and your people, and I think that's quite a wise, wise words really.
Speaker 1:I think, just reflecting as I was listening to what you were saying about how I know what helps me sort of get over myself and into what's needed is getting really clear on what is my role in this meeting right now.
Speaker 1:Or what is my role in this? And then, actually, my role isn't to make sure that page two of that report or slide deck or whatever is perfect. My role is to bring this type of energy or to bring this kind of because actually, if you're sitting there over overwrought with a really stressed expression on your face because you've been worrying about a little bit of detail, that's probably not what is the gift that you've been asked to sort of bring in that moment. But maybe that's because of the types of roles we have, is it's very clear, if we're sitting there at a table, we know the role that we're playing and I think that would have been useful when I was an internal employee for all the years that I was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:I do think there were some scenarios I was in going. I'm not sure my role is here, so I'm just going to get swept up in the emotion that I see around me. So I think, as well as those practical tools that you've just shared, I think just sometimes that bigger picture question of what is my role in this meeting or in this chat that I'm having now, so that I don't get too caught up in stuff that actually in five years time wasn't even something worth kind of investing all that worry in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I think that's really good, laura, because sometimes we look for other stuff to either affirm that we're not alone, so, therefore, if I'm thinking this, if I share that with someone else, they're going to think that, and then somebody else will, and then, therefore, there's a whole team of us that are thinking the same way, because we're all in it together. For somebody to go hang on a minute, what do we actually know? And I think that's what sort of comes out when I love when you talk about grip as a way of designing tools, and it always I think you can apply it to that moment.
Speaker 2:So what's my goal? So it's goal, roles, interpersonal relationships and process. Right, so what is my goal or what's you know right now? What's the goal, what is my role right now? Because it will be different depending on different scenarios that you're faced with as a manager, leader, team supervisor, whatever. How am I going to be? What is those interpersonal relationships going to look like? What's my intent? What am I going to do? How am I going to behave? What's my attitude, walking into it, and then the process that I'm going to go through to get me from A to B, or to overcome this change, or to find out more or to just ask a question. You know that process in inverted commas, is ask the question, that's the process. It's nothing more simpler than that. Just to say, okay, that's the process I'm going to do, and then it creates a plan in our heads which gives us certainty, knows we're a bit in control, and then we can take the next step.
Speaker 1:Love it, Debs. Oh, I love it when we can link something sort of practical you can pass on to others as well. I'm just remembering. Actually, I did a project with a client and we called it strap on.
Speaker 2:And it was the whole. Was that in your Anne Somers days?
Speaker 1:no it was well, yeah, but it does. The humour does sometimes pop up every now and then again just to get my kind of little secret plan to get as many smutty relating projects, things, but without people knowing so yeah because we had the 12 big purple tips we did have the 12 big purple tips.
Speaker 2:I remember that one. We were in hysterics, oh my God. They loved it though.
Speaker 1:They did, they remembered them all. They remembered them all that association. Yeah, much more memorable than 10 golden rules. They forgot all of those, but they remember the big 12 purple tips. And yeah, that's it. So it was a change management session we were running with leaders and it was called Strap On and it was all about the roller coaster ride, and the S-T-R-A-P-I-N stood for something.
Speaker 1:You know, various different concepts, but you're so right, deb, that grip. So actually to embrace, to accept the uncertainty and embrace the chaos, if you sort of imagine. You know, you're there out on the waves and you're just tumbling and tumbling tumbling. You're there out on the waves and you're just tumbling and tumbling tumbling. You're grabbing the surfboard, you're gripping onto it with that grip, goal, role, interpersonal relationships and processes, and in that moment you're able to just steady yourself. So, whatever happens around you in that ocean oh, this metaphor works well, doesn't it? Whatever happens around you in that ocean, you can get your head above water and bob along with it, rather than trying to swim against it, because that's what will knacker you out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so, and I think that's the bit around. People do fight uncertainty. We don't like to not know, we really don't. And I think that's what can sometimes happen. People get frustrated that they don't know. So I think, the more that people are open with their communication, communicate, know, communicate. Even if you don't know anymore, still communicate.
Speaker 2:I remember a very old boss of mine who used to always say when we were going through a change program so I'll call out to Sian Evans on this one she always used to say as long as we tell people seven times in seven different ways what we do or don't know, then the message will land and we'll keep people feeling as safe as we possibly can. And when you think about that concept you think wow. So we had to be on it as HR business partners to be able to communicate well, to keep people in the loop, to be mindful that we were. We didn't leave anyone out. It took our energy, but the difference it made to those people going through an exit was it wasn't frustration, there wasn't anger with it, there wasn't this annoyance that the company are doing this.
Speaker 2:To me, there was more of an acceptance on a level that this was going to happen and whilst they didn't want it no, none of us wanted it we were able to understand it, and that understanding meant that we could start to engage with it. And then we, we just accepted what it was, but she was very good, as and as always said. You know that slowed down to go faster, and the more we communicated whether we did or didn't know any update, but we still communicated the better people felt. They felt informed, they felt part of it. Um, they had no control over it, like you know, we didn't but they felt that they weren't being left high and dry with nothing. And I think that's the one for me. The communication we can continue to do and up the communication can only help and not be afraid of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's just even that little kind of seven times in seven different ways, and then if you're sort of thinking, thinking God, that's a lot of work. Well, imagine a parallel universe where there's no communication in no different ways. Yeah, so if we think back to our brain tool that we love the benefits the risks, the alternatives, your intuition, do nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so if you were to not communicate and adjust in no way at all, well, what's the work that's waiting for you at the end of that tunnel? Whereas at least now you're kind of, you're keeping it tidy as you go, you're tidying as you go, you're bobbing along.
Speaker 1:Bobbing along. Debs, I'd love to hear your thoughts around the impact other people's behaviours have on us when we are dealing with uncertainty. So I remember a very interesting conversation that we had on one of leadership workshops I think it was about two years ago where we were talking about the whispers within an organisation. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you see are maybe some individual impacts that have on people when they are surrounded by lots of gossip, lots of rumour mills and lots of whispers that happen when others may be dealing with uncertainty, and what might be some useful things to bear in mind if you are surrounded by a lot of this negativity, or not even negativity, but worry and uncertainty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Oh my God, yes, I do remember that actually. Yeah, whispers is a good thing. So in the absence, as we said, of anything, we make it up. And if you just let somebody know and somebody else knows before you know everybody's whispering, the gossip is going and it can be really harmful because we're never normally aware of the impact that that could have on somebody. So if there's gossip flying around about their senior leader who they think he's going to go, then that person might be impacted because that's their lifeline in their work, and they might go along with it.
Speaker 2:I have seen people go along with the gossiping and go oh yeah, but what it does, it creates quite, can create quite a toxic environment. It then becomes the them and us and therefore we then look for all the faults that are going on in that company or that team rather than cut through it and say, yeah, but is that really true? You know, is that helpful to think that way? And what do you know for sure? So we always say, whenever people are gossiping, the question I say so how do you know that for sure? And they go, well, I don't. So it's just idle chit, chat or whispers, and they go. Well, yeah, and it's like you've just dropped a penny. What do you know for sure? And most people won't know for sure, well, I don't Okay. So if you were to know for sure, what do you need to do now? And nine times out of 10, it's well.
Speaker 2:I could ask a question, I could stop the rumors rolling. I can just cut through it and get the team back on track to tell them what we do know, as opposed to what we don't know and what we're making up. So it's that lifting yourself up and out of it. I think that can really help, because we love it, we love colluding at times. We like to be part of something and not left out on our own, and I think that goes back to our survival. You know something and not left out on our own, and I think that goes back to our survival. If we're in a tribe together, we're safe. Yet if there's one lone wolf that's wandering, we never quite know what's going to happen. But there are times in this world where we have to say, well, hang on a minute. Do we know that for sure? And nine times out of 10, we don't. And we've just made it up. So you can cut through the noise and just deal with what you do know, not with what you don't know.
Speaker 1:Debs, my little visual brain was going bonkers when you were saying that. I was mad. This is like the jellyfish, yes, and although they might all look all nice and pretty, and you go, what's going on over there? If you swim too close to all the jellyfish you're going to get stung and that's going to impact your sleep and you're going to feel a bit uncertain and a bit kind of like oh, I don't know if I should have said that and all of that sort of lost in stuff that might not be a healthy, good space to be in. And I was just imagining then each one of those questions you ask. You know what? Do you know for sure? It's like the little jellyfish legs just like start swimming away and you go.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm free of it, but I think this has been a fascinating conversation yeah.
Speaker 2:Just sort of in wrap up.
Speaker 1:So the purpose of this five-part focus is looking at what we're seeing around us as workplace cultures at this mid-decade reflection point and what we're seeing is a lot of people that are being jolted left, right, centre. Yeah, who, if we keep that sort of ocean analogy that again swept up in all of it and you might not be out too deep, you can still get into trouble on the shoreline. So you know it can impact all of us. Just sometimes that sense of there's just too much I don't understand and this desire for certainty, as you said, would actually can lead us into some, you know, behaviours that are not great for us and there's not the impact on each other. So we've been taking a look at tools and tips for accepting the uncertainty, embracing the chaos and, who knows, when we get to the end of this decade you might look back and go.
Speaker 1:It wasn't easy but, my God, we had some fun, or we were able to achieve some really difficult things, or we did right by people and I'm proud of how I handled myself and the impact I then had. So we hope you've enjoyed this first five part series. And, debs, we know the whole premise of the Secret Summer Coach idea is giving some food for thought. That only kind of accompanies you maybe on a commute and just gives you a bit of cheer, but also some sort of practical takeaways. So what would your call to action be on this one, debs?
Speaker 2:Oh, my call to action. By the way, I like the fact you did fun, achieve and do right by people the rights bit to do, which is far go far oh nice one Debs. In a timely way? Oh no we don't want F-A-R-T.
Speaker 2:No, no, we'll stick with far. No, we don't want that. Yeah, we'll stick with far. I think my call to action would be if you're feeling uncertain, just pause for a moment and think about what is it that I am uncertain about, Where's this feeling coming from? And see if you can identify it and then make an action for yourself that says okay, in order for me to know for sure what's going on right now. Who can I ask? Where can I go and get support from? So then find someone, or speak to someone else not the gossip mongers, but maybe those that you can reach out to. So check in with yourself and say how do I know for sure what is going on? I don't. So who do I need to ask a?
Speaker 1:question of Love it. Debs. My share of the secret would be if you know someone in your friendship or work circle who is dealing with a lot of uncertainty at work, get them to listen to this. The goal of it is just a 25, 30 minute, just a bit of a reassuring check in that they're not alone and you know it's OK to. It might not be easy, but no feeling is final and a couple of the tools we've shared hopefully will help. And if you're thinking well, the last person I want to go and see is my boss, because they're the problem.
Speaker 1:Yes, Then join us for next week where we're going to be joined by a psychologist who is going to be taking us through her professional take on overcoming trauma from a bad boss experience. So I'm really looking forward to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'd be good, but in the meantime Laura go far.
Speaker 1:Oh, I will go far in a timely way, deb, have a wonderful week. You too, lovely, love you. See you all the other time. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work.