.JPG)
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
211. Reclaiming Self-Confidence After a Toxic Team Experience
In the third in our 5-part season on the hot topics around workplace cultures in reality we explore how to reclaim confidence and positivity after a negative or toxic team experience. We are joined by the inspirational Dave McCabe who shares his experience and advice for bringing the learns but not the baggage when leaving a negative team to make a fresh start.
Not an easy topic, we hope this helps anyone who is wanting a confidence boost after leaving a toxic team - or is debating whether to or not.
You can connect with Dave McCabe via his LinkedIn profile
Secrets from a coach thrive and maximize your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with debbie green of wishfish and laura thompson, stavely of phenomenal training.
Speaker 2:Debs, laura, you all right, yeah, how's your week?
Speaker 1:been so far.
Speaker 2:It's been really cool actually, and lots of interesting conversations that have come off the back of our last week's episode about bad boss trauma, which has been fascinating. It certainly has opened up the conversations with people who have just gone. I'm in that situation and I didn't realise I could do something about it. So, yeah, it's been a good week to have great conversations.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, as they say, every boss you've had is either a lesson or a warning for when you become a boss yourself. Very true, and it is with that in mind, oh my goodness, and it is with that in mind, oh my goodness. I am so excited just even to hear his voice, the gorgeous Dave McCabe, who is in conversation with you in a moment. And I mean, we've both known Dave for a number of years now, and his Facebook posts always crack me up.
Speaker 1:So whether it's in our professional lives or in our kind of semi-professional personal lives. He's an absolutely wonderful person and I think what's going to be fascinating to listen to him is the focus on this week's episode is the third workplace reality that we wanted to put some light onto, which is what happens when teams don't play nicely with each other. So when teams are behaving badly, there's a toxic team environment. What does that mean? And, of course, because hybrid working was kind of thrust upon so many industries, at the start of this decade.
Speaker 1:We're still learning. How do you have good manners, how do you have great etiquette, how do you still care and have that sense of belonging even though you might not be sitting next to each other all the time? And I think it's going to be great listening to Dave's experience having been to you know some dark places and back again, in terms of how to either prevent or cope with a toxic team environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was so good to talk to him and his experience was, you know, really valuable and, you know, thank him for sharing it with us, because I'm sure people can resonate with what he had to say. So should we take a listen and see what he says? Law.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, as you can see, I am absolutely delighted to be joined by our guest this week, who's going to tap into a topic that is actually quite rife and is all over the place, and we thought we would talk to somebody, dave McCabe, who has experience of being part of a team, in a team, making teams, helping teams, all of that lovely stuff, because last week we talked about bad boss, so we wanted to take it onto the next level, which was about teams. So what can we do, how can we help ourselves if we find ourselves in a bit of a sticky situation sometimes, and what we need to do to just reclaim our confidence and know who we are and what we're about. So, dave, it's an absolute pleasure. Welcome, give our listeners a little bit of a bit of a history of you. Who are you?
Speaker 3:Hi Deb. Thanks so much for the opportunity to join the podcast. I'm really, really grateful and it's lovely to see you as well, and you, yeah. So a little bit about me. So, I'm originally from Dublin. I've been in the UK for the last kind of 12 years. Background is mainly around aviation, rail and customer. Yeah, okay, all of my roles have been customer centric and customer focused. Yeah, started off as cabin crew many, many years ago. Yeah, okay, all of my roles have been customer centric and customer focused.
Speaker 3:Yeah, started off as cabin crew many, many years ago, okay, and then worked my way up through the ranks, moved into a safety training role and then went into the dark side to people management.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's always. People say that Dave don't know the dark side it's the dark side.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so since 2012, I've been in people management and I've managed like small, medium, large teams across a number of organizations. Most recently was a big organization, heathrow.
Speaker 3:So yeah, where I met and law yeah, yeah um, so, yeah, so spent seven and a half years there, had amazing career and at Heathrow. They gave me so many opportunities to develop, grow and experience different sides of the business and would have just been such a huge organization yeah so much scope for growth. And then moved into a number of roles there, managing large operational teams and then security assurance for Terminal 2 and Terminal 4. So compliance, which I love because I'm very black and white it's very black and white.
Speaker 2:It's got to be right, hasn't it? It's got to be right.
Speaker 3:And then COVID hit. Yes, of course, yeah. And then so Heathrow offered voluntary severance, so I took that and then went on to have a year off.
Speaker 2:Very nice too.
Speaker 3:Spending money on Amazon, I was like, oh my God, what the hell is this? What the right for today?
Speaker 2:now, that was always the excitement, actually. It was like, yeah, you got to know your postman and your delivery people super well during that time You'd never met them before, but suddenly you knew them by their first name.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then we were starting to come out of COVID, so stuff was starting to unlock and then I thought, well, I need to actually think about going back to work and getting a job. And I was very lucky to go back into a sector that I'm so passionate about, which is aviation. Lucky to go back into a sector that I'm so passionate about, which is aviation.
Speaker 3:I managed a base for one of the big UK airline 600 people, you know three managers responsible for a whole base and I loved it Two and a half years there and actually, surprisingly enough, this topic actually resonates, because actually one of the reasons why I left that organization was because of a toxic leader.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:And I voted with my feet to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And moved into an ops manager role, which I soon found out wasn't my cup of dash healing.
Speaker 2:Like that yeah.
Speaker 3:And then, sadly, my dad passed away in February this year, which then was a bit of a catalyst for change for me, because I found I was on a bit of a catalyst for change for me, because I found I was on a bit of a spiral and career-wise, I was like what am I doing? I'm chasing the money, but I'm not really happy. So it was time to take back some control.
Speaker 3:Good, yeah, good and I've done that and I'm with an amazing organization now in an aviation role. Yeah, that I absolutely love a people management role. It just suits me to a T. I'm so happy Six months in a role and it's just been an amazing experience so far. So I fell in my happy place, debs.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that. Well, first of all, thank you for sharing the video. Sorry to hear about your dad as well.
Speaker 2:But, as you said, those sometimes pivotal moments can make us stop and think about what's important for us and how can we be our best and how can we show up and love what we do. Otherwise, as you said, chasing the money, it doesn't always give you that happiness that we think it would be. I'm with you on that. I think I moved once in a job where I chased for the money and went, oh my God, what have I just done? And vowed never to do that again early on in my career, because you have to be happy at work.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I think when you're, when you've got, then part of what you could say our topic is around, you know, being part of a toxic team. The impact that has on you is huge. So I suppose, with your experience, which goes back, as you said, a long way, with different types of people, different organization, going to the dark side to make people management and then seeing it on an operational side, I think they're very different skills as well. That's a very different need. So I think, when you think about being part of a toxic team, what is it that creates that, do you say?
Speaker 3:So I know that you and Laura love the power of three.
Speaker 2:I love that you and Laura love the power of three.
Speaker 3:I love that, so I've made some notes of preparation.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think the three things that really stand out for me around this is poor leadership can create a toxic team, yeah, and one of that is around, you know, encouraging like backstabbing or favouritism, and that can create an environment where people don't feel valued for what they do, they're always competing against each other and it just doesn't create a really cohesive team where we all want to kind of build each other up because we're working towards the same goal or wherever it is on the project or whatever that piece of work is. Another thing that I've kind of known as well as was around withholding information.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, okay, that's a big thing, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and making decisions without actually involving the entire team. Now I recognize that some decisions have to be made in isolation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3:But you know, not addressing concerns or not actually listening to your team to say what is actually going on. And are you actually listening to me? You know, especially going through periods of change where communication is so important to take people along on that journey with you so they understand the rationale behind it. You know you provide meaning and that really does support with kind of removing that toxicity yes, yeah, I think that's the right.
Speaker 2:I'd say that as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so, yeah and then um avoiding honest and factual feedback yeah, which plays into your black and white a view of say so. Either tell me if I'm doing good, tell me I'm not, but tell me yeah, yeah, yeah because if people don't know how they're performing or how they're doing, yeah, how do they know how? How do you, as a leader?
Speaker 2:then, yeah, coach, develop and support that individual to be the best version of themselves that they can be yeah, definitely yeah, and I think, as she was saying, that you know that I mean, we've it before the favoritism thing being played out in different organizations as well, and I think you know it does stem from that poor leadership that is going to highlight people that they will always go to, and you know they won't give everybody else a chance and sometimes they don't see it in themselves that that's what they're doing, and for me that is always mind blowing and I think you know, if you're a member of that team and you're seeing that happen around you, I suppose in your experience what can you actually do about it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so there's kind of a few things that I've kind of used in terms of a coping mechanism, and one of that was around maintaining your own personal professionalism. So, whatever is going on around you and whatever behaviors others are demonstrating or exhibiting, don't buy into it, you know. Remove yourself away from the situation, you know, because all of that then impacts performance morale. Yeah, because you get drawn in then to um and a podcast that that you did was around the drama line oh, yes, we did.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, my god, I love you remembered that, yeah so you know below, you know, yeah, I can't be dealing with it, I really can't. Yeah, you know, give give me the facts and then let's kind of move on with that, but don't don't do the drama, don't sweat the small stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's really important and if you say, you know, I think, to have that level of maturity, though, to be mindfully present and not get involved and dragged in, because some people will think that's how they can belong to a team. If you like, play the game in inverted commas and I suppose again, how do you navigate your way through that if there's, you know, somebody in your team that's playing along and you're being your professional self and you just think, oh my God, how can I help them? Because it does have an impact on your team, right, it has an impact on you personally, but it also has an impact on your stakeholders as well. And it's like, yeah, how do we?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think it's just around, you know, confronting the issue, so calling it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, calling it out.
Speaker 3:I think that's really important, because if you allow behavior to develop and you don't challenge it, then it grows and it becomes into something bigger. Yeah, yeah, true, and all of those things. I think a lot of stuff can be sorted out by just having an honest and factual feedback around here. What I saw here's how it made me feel and actually I actually have an awareness of it yeah, because actually, some people might not have an awareness of how they're behaving yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:Some people are oblivious to the impact they're having on people, isn't it? Yeah, and I think so for me, when you're saying you know I'll call it out, that can. That takes a level of confidence right. And if you feel like you've been a bit battered and bruised because of being involved in a toxic team, how do you reclaim your confidence and own it so you can call it out?
Speaker 3:So I think it all goes down, goes back to your own personal values and what you, what you, believe in. So for me personally, it's about making sure that if my values are compromised, then I'm really sorry, but we're going to have, we're going to have a conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I think, if you stand for what was it that Laura said?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, if you stand for, if you stand for everything, you'll fall for nothing, or something.
Speaker 3:She corrects us on that one. Yeah, that's the way, that's the right way round.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she'd tell us how it should be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the right way round. Yeah, she'll tell us how it should be. Yeah, yeah, absolutely Wouldn't expect anything less. No, but yeah, I think you know it's just about you know, being really factual, removing the emotion and just keeping it to the point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, because I think, also with that, you sometimes, with your stakeholders, they're going to sense that something isn't quite right as well, aren't they? And they're going to be maybe questioning you about what's going on in your team. And that can be really hard to hold. I suppose that professional boundary, because one you know, someone has noticed, and then you're going oh, but they're our customer, they shouldn't be noticing. So, again, we have to find a way around that and be the professional that we are, especially as you're experiencing the customer servicing role, where you just love the customer as much as your team. It's really hard, isn't it, to do that. What advice would you give to people?
Speaker 3:I think you know to just go on that point. I think it's about you know setting out clear expectations for your team. You know being really clear about here's what I expect, here's what you know you'll get from me, but equally, here's what I expect from you. Yeah, because then there's no confusion about where anybody stands.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a cool one and I love the fact you said you know to do that is absolutely. Then it's very clear, there's no confusion. But then how much your values, as you said, play into that, because if your values are compromised, then you know, that's it, you would call it and everything. But not everybody has that level of confidence to do that, have they? So what would your advice be to somebody who goes oh I'm not quite sure what my values are, how can I call it? What do I do? What would you say to them?
Speaker 3:I would just say you know, take time to reflect, look back on. You know what the situation was, because I think if you go in to any situation with emotion and you're reactive to whatever it is that you've seen, especially if your values are being compromised, then actually you're adding fuel to the fire. Conversation turns into an unproductive one because you don't end up then with a resolution or it just becomes a bit of he said, she said, and then you get into you know all the emotion then comes back into it.
Speaker 3:So I would say, you know, take a step back, reflect, you know, be really clear about you know those three points that I said, how it made you feel what you saw, and actually how do we stop this from happening?
Speaker 2:I think you know they're very simple questions but very powerful they are, yeah, you're right, and also you're still being true to yourself, right, and you know you're not compromising, but you do it in a way that is still professional, um, and because you you have to maintain a level of that relationship still to in order to do your job. And I think that's what's really important, isn't it? When you're thinking about, if you are managing a team and you're leading that team, how do you go about avoiding creating that? You said about setting expectations. So, being really clear, what else could team managers managers listening to this leaders do if they feel like maybe I am creating that toxic environment, maybe I am creating this favouritism and this bumping heads with people, or I'm withholding the information that I can give freely? So what would you say to a manager, supervisor or even someone who's about to step into management? What would you say to help them not create a toxic team?
Speaker 3:So yeah, I think you know it's very. In my opinion it's very simple. It's about clear expectations, clear behaviour, guidelines around you know you're stepping into leadership for the first time. It's so important to keep kind of like track of, well, we've had this conversation before. The informal stages are not working, you know, performance improvement plan or coaching support, all of that. If that is not happening and we're not seeing a kind of a turnaround or a shift in someone's behavior and they're still continuing to bring the team down, then you know be prepared to kind of have some difficult conversations. And it doesn't have to be, you know, going in like a bull in a china shop. First of all. It can be like well, you know, we're now having this conversation three or four months on. Nothing's changing. Why?
Speaker 2:yeah, what's going on for you, yeah, yeah, what's going on.
Speaker 3:You know and part of it is as well as about there might be something external that you're not aware of as a leader, true and it's important to to know your team.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah it really is, you know. So, building that up, we're noticing when somebody is maybe a bit, you know cold, when they're normally like really out there, or vice versa. So I think it's about having an awareness of who your team are and just being really close to them as well, because you know another. I'm going to use another quote from you, debs to lead people, you need to love people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:You do, you really do, and I think, if you, don't love people and you're in love people. Yeah, yeah, you know you really do. Yeah, I think if you don't love people and you're in a people management role, yeah, you probably need to have a bit of that.
Speaker 2:It's not gonna work. Yeah, no, it's really not it's really not.
Speaker 3:It's really not.
Speaker 2:And I suppose it's also quite hard, dave, isn't it, when, if you're like you're a brand new manager, this is your first, maybe manager's role, and then suddenly you've got a team of people that may be established it's not like you built your team around you, and that can be quite daunting at times, can't it, as you step into that role for the first time, where people are watching and waiting, and again, leaders and new managers have to be really conscious, then, of how they show up isn't it?
Speaker 3:So if you were to give some advice to them again around how to show up, what would you say? I would just say you know, just be yourself. You know, being an authentic leader is about being yourself, because people will see through when you're being false. Yeah, they do, don't they? Yeah, they do. You know, people are not silly. No, and you know, I came into a team where it was an established team, you know, and you have to go in really softly, yeah, initially. You know you have to be like hi, how are you? You know, set the set, the scene, understand where the challenges are, where you kind of see right, here's where I can add real value, yeah. And then communication yeah, so important it is, it's so important, yeah, it is, and people forget that don't is where I can add real value. Yeah, and then communication yeah, so important.
Speaker 2:It is. It's so important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is, and people forget that, don't they, they do, yeah, and you know if you provide meaning to people and you explain the reasons why this is happening, or what the change is and why the change is happening. Yes, it might affect them.
Speaker 3:you know in their role, or there might be a change of you know um responsibilities within that role yeah um, but as long as you provide meaning, you take people, you show them care, you look after them through the change or whatever it is, because you know a new leader coming in is change for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, yeah, yeah so I think it's just about being really caring and compassionate yeah, which costs nothing right nothing at all yeah, and it just it always amazes me when you talked about earlier about your poor leadership creates a toxic team and you do wonder how, why they don't care or have compassion, and I'm always intrigued as to what drives that sort of behavior in people, that they just don't care about their people, and I think that I mean that just doesn't even come on my radar, like yours. I mean, I remember you stepping into the team, as you said, the established team in the days of Heathrow, and you were finding your feet and you got to know them and you softly trod into that space. But what is it that people just don't even see the fact they don't even care about their team?
Speaker 3:it's crazy it is and I think that's a real downfall that you don't have self-awareness about how you're coming across or your approach to people, because everybody is very different.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, and and you know you use the four colors, so you blue, green, red, good old insights.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I love it because it really does help you identify. How do I need to be with this individual? Yes, what do they need for me to get the best out of them? You know, you and I sunshine yellow we are, that's, you know.
Speaker 2:That's a given and Laura Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because I think Laura linds are also sunshine yellow no surprise there then? No, no, but you know I I am really conscious of of that as well, because I am very sunshine yellow, but then I push my red so much because it's not my natural state to be in in red. But it depends on the role that you're doing and if you need something done, you know I'm not really into the detail, no- Just the least, like no detail.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I'm like no, no, just get it done and tell me when it's all done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you've learned that in the right place. And again, this is awareness, though, isn't it? This is linked into how intelligent are you emotionally, and they're all those skills that are just. We have to learn them, don't we? And have to, as you said, if you don't like people, don't be in a team with people, but a lot of people don't see that self-awareness is so important to it, and thinking about how we can adapt and flex to get the best out of the yeah, but you know, leaders as well need feedback.
Speaker 2:Oh, 100%, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, because they might not have an awareness of, actually, because they're focused on delivering a change or they're delivering, you know, a piece of work.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Where you know there's time pressures, constraints from above, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And sometimes it's like are you okay? You know that's a real good question, are you okay? Yeah, nice question, yeah you know that's a real good question, are you okay?
Speaker 2:yeah, nice question, yeah, um, and then repeating that question then after they answer, because the first answer is not always the the reality yeah, that's very true actually, and I think also, you've got to have a leader that is even willing to hear the feedback right, without then branding you that you or your trouble, you know whereas and that's the relationship again, isn't it? And you know, as you, you, you made a decision to go. This isn't the right space for me. I'm going to walk, I'm going to leave and do my thing because I need to feel that I belong and I can show care and compassion and have that back at you. So I think, credit to you for doing that, because some people just don't do that, do they? They will stay and in the hope that it'll get better or that person will leave or get moved somewhere else yeah, and even with that, then you know you're just moving the problem.
Speaker 3:You know you're not dealing with it. Yeah, part of part of of me is around. You know, if you see something bad, you know you call out when you say, yeah, we need to change this. And actually, if the culture doesn't change and it doesn't match your values yes, you know, I'm such a values-led leader- yeah. I really am, and if they're compromised, then you know I'm afraid there's. You know, either one of us has to go and I did make that decision to leave yeah, yeah you know it was.
Speaker 3:It was a tough decision to leave, yeah but I, I know my worth, and knowing your worth is so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that is it, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, anybody listening, you know, to this, that's kind of in that moment where they're like, they're in the situation where they're not feeling valued, they're in a toxic team leader, whatever it is, you know it's time to take control yeah, it is and say this is not okay you know it's time to take control yeah, it is and say this is not okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, cause it's not okay. And I think you and I love that that you've said that you have to know your worth, and that's when that inner confidence has to be there as well, too. And remembering what people have said about you before and reminding yourself of the good stuff that you've heard and what how people love working with you. And then this isn't just aligning to your values and your purpose and then making it clear that, no, I'm going to trust myself Because, as you said, you can walk into another job, because you left that and you go. I'm now ready. And finding the thing that makes you just shine, I think is so important, because we've got a long time at work, haven't we?
Speaker 3:Completely yeah, and there's no point being miserable at work, because it just brings everybody else around you and contributes then to forming a toxic environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, definitely so, Dave. I know we could talk about this for ages, but I love this topic. If you were to give your younger self a bit of advice or guidance about reclaiming your confidence, what would you say and why would you say it?
Speaker 3:So again, Deb's power of three.
Speaker 2:Laura will be so happy.
Speaker 3:Extra brownie points for Laura. Extra yeah, definitely. I would say be kind to yourself, don't, don't let others, other opinions, destroy what you know that you are and where your worth is and what you bring to the table. Again, know your worth, know what you bring and then never compromise on your values or your standards.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3:You know cause? They're what make you you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And they're what builds you up and it's what's been created all those years ago from you know teachers to grandparents to family, to brothers, to sisters. All of that, all of those relationships have a contributing factor to who you are today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and not lose sight of that.
Speaker 3:No, and really important to recognise when your values are being compromised and again calling it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely calling it out, so I'm going to ask another question actually. So what do you do to be kind to yourself, Dave?
Speaker 3:I would say that I'm quite critical of myself. So when stuff doesn't go right, I'm like why didn't that go right? Or you know, why didn't I get that job? And you know it. It can become quite demoralizing as well and you kind of turn into your biggest critic yes, yeah but what I've learned to do now is kind of to embrace the I suppose that I wouldn't say failures, but the things that maybe haven't gone so right yeah and say, yeah, do you know what?
Speaker 3:I tried it. It didn't work. But actually there's something going on over here here that I know that I can be really good at. But yeah, just being kind to yourself, you know, and saying to yourself you're doing okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love that, that repeating back you're okay, you're a great human. You have people around you that will say that about you as well, and if one person is just rocking the boat, are they worth it? Definitely not. So, yeah, I love that and I love the fact you, you know, obviously we did a lot of work on purpose and values and, and you know, and it was just fascinating to be in the room where you saw people who were some of those. You know, a few people were part of a toxic environment, some of them, but they could see that that, that moment, when their realization that their values play a massive part in decisions they make and the way they're heading, it was just such a privileged position to be in, wasn't it when we talked about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I, you know I loved facilitating with you on on that depth. It was just yeah amazing.
Speaker 3:And then you see that, that light bulb moment where it's like, oh my god, God, and you know, looking at that purpose and value stuff, that really helped me deal with a lot of demons. Yes, you know demons where you know not necessarily bad demons, but you know where you look back at stuff and you think, oh, this is the reason why I'm like this. Yes, you know, that's contributed to actually how I felt at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. But yeah, a huge part of my journey at Heathrow was down to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and again, that's a you know an organization at the time that was in a, you know looked after, you know called stuff out, would give investment in their people, would create you know good leaders as much as they could, and if they didn't, they disappeared quite quickly. And I think that's that's the difference, isn't it? The culture has to be supportive of that as well, and if you're in the wrong culture, then yeah, get out. I think you're right to do that, yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know, creating that, that culture in, especially when you're in a people leadership role yeah is really important yeah, it is yeah creating that safe space where people feel that they can say things and it's not going to be used against them. You know, go down the road or you know brand as a troublemaker, as you said previously. Yeah, yeah yeah. You know honest, factual conversations. Yeah, Adult conversations are fine.
Speaker 2:Yes, they're great. We need to do more of them yeah absolutely, we absolutely do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do more of them. We them, yeah, absolutely. We absolutely do. Yeah, do more of them, yeah. Oh, my god, dave, you know what I've loved talking to you about this topic and I really, really appreciate the fact that you know your own experiences have guided you to where you are today and you're loving what you're doing, and I think what you're sharing is it's it's it's okay to do, and I think it just reinforces the importance of knowing who you are and what's important to you and, as you said, your worth. You've got to understand your worth. So, dave, I just want to say a huge, massive thank you to you, but if people wanted to find a little bit more out about you, how can they find you?
Speaker 3:sure, um, yeah, they can. I'm on LinkedIn, debs, under Dave McCabe. Yeah, um, so if anybody wants to reach out via that platform, that's absolutely fine, brilliant, it's been amazing, debs. Thank you so much for the chat. I mean I could talk to you all evening about it. I really could, yeah, but the last thing that I'll say to you is that one thing that I've always lived by is that never let anyone dull your sparkle.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, shine bright, right, I love that.
Speaker 3:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:And on that mic drop. It's like I'm going to, as Laura would say, was that another tattoo for me? You know that's it. Watch this space is what I would say, but I really appreciate that, dave. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm so happy that we were able to talk to you and get you on and talking to our listeners as well and sharing your experiences. I really, really appreciate that. So thank you very much and I'll see you soon. Thank you so much. Lovely to see you and you. Bye. So law, what did you take from that one?
Speaker 1:oh well, not only has he got the most gorgeous accent and you could, oh, you just listened to him for hours, um, I just think it was so inspiring devs. I mean to hear, to hear someone's, um, you know, kind of inside reflections on what, at the time, must have not been very easy kind of times, and I love how the power of three sits stuck in the mind. And just to clarify, it's the words from Katy Perry's song Raw If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were trying to rack our brains like that. I'm sure Laura know what that one is. It's one of hers, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, another one for the team. Tattoos there, debs, I don't want to run into that space.
Speaker 2:That's why I couldn't remember it, I couldn't reference it anywhere. I don't know where to find that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's got to ink it on, otherwise it goes out and the stuff around you know keeping above the drama line and valuing yourself. And I wondered whether it might be useful just to do a tiny quick reminder on one of our carousel of content that we like to repaint and send around again, but the Ben tool for having those conversations. So behavior, emotion need.
Speaker 1:When you laughed in my face when I said, how about we have some open brainstorming conversations, I felt let down because I thought we were going to be having an open conversation. So what I need now is a bit of clarity on what you meant by having an open conversation. So behaviour, emotion need. And if inside you're quaking with rage or you're really wound up or you're feeling really upset, it enables you to just put up. Or you're feeling really upset, it enables you to just put a bit of structure around that conversation, cause I you know I think Dave just described it brilliantly about you know having those having those clean conversations and to be able to call it out. And the Ben model is such a handy way to put a home to some of those big thoughts that might be going around in your head.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they're quite hard, because you, you know if you're especially new into a team and you think, oh my God, maybe it's me. And then you know, you sort of observe, you become the conscious observer of what's going on and then you realise it's not you, it's the team, you know, and I loved his passion about just calling it. Now I know, you know, we have experienced that ourselves and where we. Maybe when we first started our job, we may not have called it because we just maybe not had the experience to call it, but I think more and more people now are beginning to realize, thankfully, what is acceptable. Bearing in mind I started work back in the 80s you know what is acceptable, what's not acceptable, and being able to call it in a professional way I think is super important Because, as he said, if you value yourself, you want to do a good job.
Speaker 2:You were bought in that company for a reason and if the team aren't playing ball, that is crazy and calling that behavior don't not say anything, I think, because it's not a good place. You're in there most of your time, so it's got to have a good place. You're in there most of your time, so it's got to have a good environment to work in. But I love the fact you said we all have a choice, and I think we do have a choice. No one is chaining you to that desk and no one is making you put up with stuff. But it's that having the confidence and the bravery and the courageousness to take that deep breath, as you said, which I think the Ben model is a super way of structuring a framework for a conversation enables you to lean into that conversation so that it doesn't become the norm and therefore we're not again potentially condoning that behavior as acceptable in the workplace.
Speaker 2:Because that toxic team is not a great place to be. And you know, I've certainly been in a few over my time, but I've got out. I've chosen to get out. I thought this isn't for me. I'm off, but that doesn't mean I've left, but I haven't fixed the problem. You know, who comes in next might experience the same thing I have. So it's really an interesting dynamic we find ourselves in when we have a toxic team around us. But what do we do? And I think, call it.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really interesting point, because you don't have to wait to be the boss to be able to do something about it. What's that phrase? If you're stuck in traffic, you're part of the traffic. If you're in a toxic team environment and there's 10 of you, well, you're 10% of that toxic team environment.
Speaker 1:So that's not to take responsibility of the other 90%, but it's to remind yourself that you have a voice and you know you can make a difference, but you know, again, that choice in terms of sort of what to do. I do think it's interesting the impacts that hybrid working has had, debs, on that sense of team belonging. And you know this was the third in our focus of workplace realities in our mid-decade roundup and I can't wait to pick out some stuff in our fourth topic which is next week, one which is all about intergenerational working. You mentioned that you started work in the 80s Just what would have been acceptable behaviour Socialising, you know, in a pub after work.
Speaker 3:I bet there were some things you saw Deb.
Speaker 1:Or during the day. You know I mean what's acceptable what would have?
Speaker 1:been seen as acceptable then? Absolutely not now. And how do you then kind of work around that? And that is a real modern workplace reality right now is you've got four generations that legally can be on a payroll and that's a lot of different drivers and motivators. So can't wait for next week's episode, debs, and I guess in the meantime big thanks to Dave, and I think that sits as a really nice double actually, where we had Angie last week talking about overcoming bad boss trauma and then we've had Dave given us from the other perspective actually how to prevent it or what you can do from a team point of view when you're in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was so good, I loved it and I think you know from Dave's. My call to action would be what he said value yourself enough to do the right thing, and that would be my call to action. Whatever that right thing might be, do it.
Speaker 1:Lovely and my share the secret would be right thing might be do it Lovely and my share the secret would be if you know someone that is toying with, shall I stay, shall I go Get them to listen to this, and it just might help giving them some alternative perspectives that can help influence them towards making a right decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, definitely. I love that, so I'm looking forward to next week as well, but have a good one, won't you?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you too, you too, and I'll see you next week. See you next week as well, lord, but have a good one, won't you? Oh yeah, you too, you too, and I'll see you next week. See you next week, love you, bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work. You.