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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
219. Spotting Organisational Saboteurs
In the second of our 4-part series exploring how to reduce drama in our work lives, we focus on identifying and handling saboteurs around us. We are joined once again by the inspirational Lindsey Thompson who simplifies the complicated world of organisational ‘scripts’. From the moment someone joins an organisation they can’t help but be subconsciously influenced by the script (eg ‘it’s hard to sell around here’ or ‘we are busy’) which underpins the culture (deflated, pressured).
She shares tips for spotting saboteurs and to not mis-label people who are ‘wounded’, worried around change or inhibited by power politics playing around them. It also might be a genuine ‘saboteur’ but actually a really healthy challenge to hold a mirror up to a culture. So this is a good listen for those wanting to change things in their everyday workplace practices but doesn’t want to be branded negative or ‘saboteur’.
Is your organisation ‘anxious’ as a collective? Lindsey shares practical tips for understanding what might lie beneath surface behaviours and the organisational script which may limit success and engagement. It’s an optimistic reminder that anyone can change, things can be made better - with awareness as the enabler.
NB: Lindsey refers to ‘scripts’ which are our unconscious beliefs around how to be in the world in order to keep us safe and successful. She also uses the term ‘strokes’ which are the moments where we experience validation, acknowledgment and reassurance. And ‘games’ refer to the unconscious behaviour patterns with an intended outcome.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training.
Speaker 2:Debs.
Speaker 1:Laura, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm doing well, been an interesting week having interesting sets of chats with different people and different organisations, and, yeah, it's been good. How's your week been?
Speaker 2:Yeah, same actually, and, as you can see, I'm in a different venue, so we're out delivering today running one of our sort of fave workshops. So it's been, yeah, definitely loads of conversations and people seem to be getting back in the swing of what they're looking to do, how they want to be, all of that lovely stuff.
Speaker 1:And I'm really enjoying this current four-part focus looking at how to reduce workplace drama. So if actually you're thinking, god, there's a lot of stuff going on in our work at the moment, or you are looking to move a role or you've started a new role and you want to kind of start fresh, then we've got some really interesting topics that we're focusing on, and this one features once again one of our favourite guests, lindsay Thompson, and she just talks so brilliantly about all of this workplace dynamics and how the drama games play and I think this idea of scripts that I imagine she's going to talk about Debs. I first really got to understand the power of an organisational script when I was really focusing heavily on health and safety leadership.
Speaker 1:So what is it that means the culture of a place might turn a blind eye to stuff that might not be safe. Never challenge authority, because you don't challenge your elders or don't ever raise any problems, otherwise you'll get sort of tainted as being a troublemaker. So this idea of an organisational script how do we do things around here which then creates that culture? What does it mean to be part of this place which can then really influence individuals' behaviour? Do I just sort of stay quiet and not raise the alarm? You know, do I say something or do I keep quiet? So that's where it really kind of struck home to me. This isn't just a nice to have Actually being aware of. Your organisational script is really important. It's a vital part of creating a safe and happy and healthy workplace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and she talks about it so well, because I think sometimes we don't necessarily find out what that organisational script is, and it might be very different from when we were interviewed to when we join and it will shift over time. So that's always an interesting one to explore. And how good are you at exploring the culture of an organisation when you're having in that interview phase and asking those questions? So does it align with who you are? So I think it's a really important thing to consider. So shall we listen to what she had to share.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think just maybe a little catch on. What do we mean by saboteur? Because I think that's just sort of gets us ahead of the game for listening to it. So to sabotage something is where you willfully damage or stop something from happening, and I think it comes from the word, the French word sabot, because it was the movement of people that would use sabots to hit those wooden clogs, to hit machines, because they were kind of sort of anti the machines taking jobs and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:And I guess what Lindsay's going to take us through is is this a genuine organisational saboteur or is this actually someone who is just challenging the organisational script and that might actually be the best set of behaviours that you actually might want to role model and do more of? So is it someone that is actually genuinely trying to stop good things happening, or is it just it goes against the organisational grain and actually that person should be applauded for trying to sort of make some changes? So I can't wait to see how she puts it together, because no one describes this stuff quite like our Linz, do they?
Speaker 2:Devs. She's really good at it and she just makes it make sense and puts it into simplistic terms, which is really helpful for me as well as everyone else maybe. So should we take a listen and see what she says. Hi everyone, as you can see, we have got back the wonderful Lindsay Wright, who's one of our colleagues and who is the master of all things team dynamics, organizational stuff, scripts everything you want to know about what stops a team from working well, but also what enables it to work well.
Speaker 2:So both sides of the coin, not just one side. Last week, laura and I talked about the drama and the saboteurs that come up in that. So we sort of link that back in the drama triangle that surrounds that. So Lindsay's going to talk to us about what does it mean up in that. So we sort of link that back and the drama triangle that surrounds that. So lindsay's going to talk to us about what does it mean? We have people around us that are like those organizational saboteurs. So, linds, welcome. How are you doing? I'm good. Thank you, it's a juicy subject it's a juicy subject.
Speaker 2:We thought it was right I'm at the burn institute at the minute so I'm doing all things ta. So um exciting conversation at dinner last night talking about this podcast today.
Speaker 1:Oh, how cool.
Speaker 2:And people were saying I've heard of Secrets of McCabe. That was really interesting. Oh, we're getting out there. I know Laura's challenged us with getting somebody on the moon to listen to it or an astronaut to listen to this, so God help us.
Speaker 1:We'll see how far we we stretch for this one.
Speaker 2:But I think, linz, obviously you're doing as you said. I was running a workshop this week and I mentioned the work that you're doing around TA and how important it is for organizational scripts and, whilst I didn't do it any justice like you did, they were fascinated by the fact that there is that organizational script, there's that relational script that goes on and the impact that it has to give, give us a little bit of a, a bit of a 101 around. Why is this important and what does it mean? Okay, so in you know I'm doing ta in organizations, so you know my um. I guess in ta my role is to help organizations, their teams and their people to identify and eliminate dysfunctions in the organisation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think dysfunction can happen anywhere in the organisation. It can be right up there in the system. The system and the structure may not be working with you in what you're trying to achieve. Yeah, it might be how the teams are set up. The dysfunction could be in the set-up of the teams and the relationships within it. And then there's also dysfunction like intrapsychically. You know the person that's in the team could be having some of the dysfunction. So it's, you know, it's a whole bundle of stuff that my job is to try and unpick.
Speaker 2:And when we're, I think the reality is the script in the organisation is somewhat is unconscious. Yeah, so we don't know. We're doing the script. So as you enter an organisation, the organisational you'll be becoming enmeshed. When you enter the organisation, the organisation enters you. So I can remember when Austin one of his jobs that he had in the sales team, the organizational script was we earn money, oh, okay, all right, it's a commission-based business, you're here to earn money. But what happened in the unconscious script is the game that they were playing was we talk about earning money and making money, but we don't? Oh, interesting, but we don't, ah, interesting. So when Austin came in and then earned lots of money, there was an element of oh God, who are you Coming in, without my view, because he was earning money.
Speaker 2:I'm getting real kickback and I'm getting on my own. I'm being called a lone wolf, I'm being called a saboteur. Okay, that's really interesting. When we were digging around. It's almost like no, we keep playing the game. It's really hard to sell. Yeah, interesting. And he didn't play the game.
Speaker 2:I think recognising that some of that games that we play in organisation is in order to keep the script going. Yes, if you're going, you know we work in an organisation. You know well where I think the script is. We're really busy, but not necessarily effective. Yeah, got you. So when we start playing games around, you know they're not very busy. Oh, they don't seem very busy. Oh, I'm so busy. Oh, my god, I'm so busy, I'm victim. And then all you got like those rescuers stepping into the game. That goes I need to help people because they're so busy. So it keeps the script, keeps it going, keeps it going.
Speaker 2:So what happens then if it's not recognized at that top level? Or cultural, because everybody looks at cultural change or wanting to make cultural differences, but in reality, how easy is that to make a difference with a culture that they might want to shift and change? If that organizational script is done in unconsciousness. How do you even begin to unpick that? Oh, I think I think you know it's a bit like. It's a bit like our script. Yeah, you know our scripts. You don't know you're doing it until you do some work, so go. That's really interesting. You know we've got a strong try hard driver. We have it's not until you know it, recognize it and then go. That's really interesting, I'm doing that. That's not helping. That physis really, that we can then say, okay, I, I, I'm, that's not serving me, I'm not helping me achieve my goal. Yeah, sometimes it does, and often in organizations like us, those the scripts that we have were needed to survive.
Speaker 2:So organizations going through any difficult time that have gone through startups where this, we've got to be this way to get where we need to get to, it's like that. It's like the formation of our health system with a child. You know they made. That organization might be in its teenage years and you know that served them to get where they got to. But until we are, have, you know, people at the top that are prepared to look at it and think, maybe am I part of it? What's my role in this? Yeah, what do we want it to look like now. Then you know when we, when we come in as a team, you know as Wishfish, and we do work with people.
Speaker 2:That's us, really, you know, looking at how we create a healthier resilience cycle, rather than the cycles that they may be in that might not be healthy. Yeah, it's so fascinating, isn't it, linz? Because if you've got somebody who really wants to make the change and they are making it happen amongst their teams I'm thinking of one particular team of people that we work with many years ago, where their leader came in and did want to change the culture towards personal development and learning and promotion from within, battle to sell it in inverted commas into the you know, the stakeholders, the key players at the top. So what can people do to, I suppose, highlight the fact that this isn't working as well as it could be and get those people on board as well, because their egos will be playing right, because they might have set that, set that up that way and therefore it's like an attack on them, isn't it because you're now questioning it. So how do we, how do we deal with that? Oh, that's a really good question.
Speaker 2:I would say it takes a lot of building relationships, yeah, with people that have influence, and you know we had this big conversation yesterday when we were here around how do you? You know if you're working with somebody who's got very clean performance kpis and goals and it's very measurable, and you're saying, well, you know if people are happy, they're going to work better. If people are feeling engaged and want to come to work, you're going to get. You know, you're going to get them from low performing to high performance harder to measure. Yes, so it is that belief that you, you change is possible. I honestly believe change is always possible. Yeah, and I think it's about bringing it into awareness. Okay, often, when we're working in our script, we don't know we're doing it. No, but people don't always want to hear that either, do they? No, because you want to stay in script, we want to stay in script.
Speaker 1:We don't want to know.
Speaker 2:Who are you to challenge it? But I know we've done work together and it's always interesting when you call it and you go oh yeah. But I mean, obviously we've done lots of work on ourselves and we've done loads of work together and we understand that we have that relationship, which I think is key. But what if people don't have that relationship in place and they do want to call it and then somebody's going, why are you questioning me? That's really interesting. Obviously, my hours of preparation for this podcast, you know, set in the past five minutes. Make some notes. I love that Always prepared.
Speaker 2:Linz I was going. I put the title Saboteurs who are they? Okay? And the question that I may ask is is it a saboteur or is it fear of change? Okay, what comes back?
Speaker 2:Normally I think it's a combination. I think when we're working with teams, I think the people that may show up as saboteurs are varied. So I think, first of all, I'd say are they saboteurs? Because as soon as you're saying, oh, I think they're a saboteur, you're coming from an I'm okay, but they're not okay position, yeah. And then that's when we lose the curiosity.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think, that famous story of me and you had, when we had the post-it note lady, you know, when she came in so much, I went, oh, my God, I can't be doing all this and learning about post-it notes and putting them down on the floor. And we went, wow, wow, yeah, we could have gone. Oh well, you're going to sabotage my day, yeah, and we both, you know, held that space, held that space, and I'm really curious to know more about that. What's that? And then when she told you, she was like, yeah, fair, do to see why. Yeah, so I would say that's somebody who's wounded got you okay. So if someone's got a wound.
Speaker 2:I would say sometimes the most difficult saboteurs are what I'd call the the like the stagnant ponds. Right, okay, I'm doing the bare minimum, I'm not really engaged, I'm gonna just kick my head down. I'm not going with anybody. You know, going with anybody that's usually coming from a psychological injury. At some point I've been hurt, I've been damaged by somebody in the organisation or due to I've been overlooked in a promotion or something. So there's a wound that needs to be healed, which actually, like the woman on that workshop us just giving her that space to let that out and it was like, oh, it's much better now. It's been there, yeah, and no one's actually had a conversation with her about it. No, no, and that could be, they just can't be asked because she might have done that for years and years and years and years to people.
Speaker 2:Well, she might never have said or might not have said yeah, fear of change, yeah, so it's. It's almost like an anxiety-based reaction which just comes across as oh, you know, just you know hard work, yeah, yeah, because everything's a blocker, everything's a stopper. Yeah, when you had that situation, I think that is really again seeking. I'll say, first of all, there's two things what is it they're wanting to say? Yeah, who are they speaking for? Right, got you Good questions? Is this their script? Yeah, or might that be the organisational script? Right, okay, are they voicing something that's going against the organisational script? Yeah, so if the organisation's unconsciously behaving in a certain way and you've got someone going, you're actually not not doing this. Actually, are they addressing what's really going on or is this coming from a place of their own stuff and you know, really exploring, yeah, what is going on? And and by asking, you'll then know, right, and then you can decide how you want to move forward, because I know some of the things that you know, you've shared and we've seen in rooms.
Speaker 2:There's some of the I suppose, the red flags, as people call them as to go looking out for things like that consistent negativity I can never say that word, consistent negativity, that resistance to change, as you said, for whatever reason. I suppose all that misinformation that sometimes gets chucked around in an organization as well, that can be really damaging, can't it? Well, I think what we see when we're working in teams, we're often working with them for a few months, or sometimes it's only a day even, isn't it? You know, you get that view and you have that sometimes more honest conversations because you're external. There's a safety in saying something in a room where you're, you know, might have hr or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um. You know, I think sometimes what you see is the often the the kindest people that avoid conflict can be the people that can sabotage the team most. Yeah, yes, you know. So, you know, I was working with a team like recently, recently, and it was a. It was a really lovely company, lots of lovely people in there, and they know that you come and they go. I don't know why you're here.
Speaker 1:We're like a family yeah, you hear that a lot.
Speaker 2:We're a family and it's that because we're all so nice, we love each other, we're lovely, we're really, oh, we love each other, we're all really nice, you know, and you go yeah, yeah, um, but what that usually? In this case, what it was highlighting was um, you know, if you ticked me off devs in that team, instead of saying devs actually, in that meeting the other day, I felt as though you kind of did all the talking and I didn't get a chance to speak and I felt a bit like left out. So can we have a chat around how we do that? Yeah, instead they go oh, say nothing, yeah, let it go, can't?
Speaker 2:Obviously, we can't let anything go. We don't do that, we just hold it somewhere and then we change our frame of reference to look for it. Yeah, so if I've been positioned, you, as someone that likes to take over in conversations, I'm now looking for that behavior. Yeah, and then that saboteur behavior comes in with that it's and it's really challenging because it's what we, what we do to create belonging, which is having a gossip. Yeah, so instead of saying to you that feedback, I might say to someone else oh, go for a meeting with debs, yeah, oh yeah, good luck with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, be careful you get a word in edgewise you know that sort of stuff plays out. So you've got two people that are now talking about someone, yes, or about the organization, or about something yeah, and that that belonging to someone in the gossip makes us feel safer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we're in it together, so we're in an yeah, so if you've got an anxious organization, for example, you'll get more people doing the. That ain't it awful game they're going oh my god, it's not email. I can't believe that email. It's ridiculous. I know I can't. I might think it's fine, but I'm not going to say that, yeah, exactly, I'll play that game and sometimes that sad that I would say the smiling saboteur, the kind saboteur, they're not consciously doing it, they're doing it, yeah, out of awareness.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's a, it's a fear of upsetting your feelings, yeah, and then do something worse. Actually, yeah. Yeah, I'm working with a team at the minute and I think there's a sense that there's a saboteur in the team and the sense of the saboteur is it's a bit of a power play Got you, I'm doing, you know, and I think sometimes that comes through that saboteur of, yeah, look, I've done this, yes, or I did that together actually. Yeah, you'll take, oh, okay, that's interesting, or we'll agree to do something by five o'clock tonight and then at three o'clock she'll say, yeah, I didn't, I didn't hear from them, so I did it, yeah, exactly, and sometimes that comes from a place of, you know, maybe hyper, hyper achiever, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:So when they were young, they probably possibly only got their, their recognition, their strokes, strokes, yeah, from achieving. Yeah, that might not be the case. That's how that small child decided yes, yes, that's how I get my recognition. It might not have been the case. They might have said how was your day, did you do well? And they've gone. Oh yeah, I need to do well, yes, exactly so their whole script is then based on.
Speaker 2:Every day I've got to achieve yeah, regardless which might become at the cost of someone else, yeah, and also to themselves, for their own wellbeing, because that hyperachiever that we see in people can really take it out on you, right, and it's just, you just look at them, waiting for them to maybe melt, and if you don't call it and I suppose because we do what we do, we're okay to call it. If we see some odd stuff in the room or around, we call it, um, and say let's get it out. But not everybody is astute enough or awareness enough to even have that account of conversation a hundred percent. And, you know, also recognizing that some of that script's amazing. Yes, that small child in us made a decision based on the information that it had, which was really smart. I'm going, you know what? What I probably need to do is a bit of this yeah, and then we've not really ever addressed it again yeah, and it kept us successful, it makes us survive, there's loads of lovely stuff in it, and you know I'm someone that works so much on my script.
Speaker 2:And then yesterday, when we were here, um, we were talking about the, the dissertation for the, for the essay and I immediately went. I hope I get good grades because little me from my educational script. Yeah, he's still coming through and I go, that's right. I managed to catch it and went. Oh, I hope it's open's top marks in the class. What, no one care, I don't care, actually Grown up me, yeah, grown up you yeah.
Speaker 2:But the script in me is still going top of the class. Yes, yes, it's really interesting, isn't it? It's fascinating. We were having a about the script and how it impacts us in organizations. I'm still doing it today, so that's what this? That's that. That's that script.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got the organizational script yeah and then you know, I think in reality, as a leader of a team, what you are able to do is to create a healthier system. So you can have the that autonomy as a team that can account for the script. That's really interesting. So if you've got an organization where feedback's not a thing, where, so you can have that autonomy as a team that can account for the script, that's really interesting. So if you've got an organization where feedback's not a thing, where we don't get loads of recognition, we're going well, let's change the stroke economy, let's work differently, change the system.
Speaker 2:Let's look at. You know how we communicate well together. How do we give feedback, our functional fluency? We can operate and agree a way of working without team. Yeah, that sits outside and gives that those on those conversations, for those people, for all those fears and those wounds to come up so they go. Yeah, we're not going on. That's interesting, and then we can agree, a way of working that will work. But you know, record below is nothing. Understanding that we are change of us. Yeah, we don't like it, do we?
Speaker 1:yeah, we don't, it's this old reptilian brain.
Speaker 2:It's like stay the same yeah, stay the same you'll stay alive if you stay the same. But that doesn't work though, does it necessarily? Yeah, I think sometimes change people, change of people, that change of us, especially those people that are kind of, I would say, sort of hyper-controlled. Some people like to have that control. Because that fear of not having control, they can come across as a saboteur in certain situations, because they're kind of stamping on things and that's mine sort of stuff. It's all coming from stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's stuff I know we don't understand, it's really I think.
Speaker 2:I think it's fascinating, because when people play out in teams, we'll go oh, saboteur, or what's their problem, you know? Whereas when we're children and we play up, if you've got the, if you've got a kid having a toddler having a tantrum, we don't go. Well, you're a joke. Yeah, I bet they're tired.
Speaker 1:I bet they're not well. Yeah, they're hungry, yeah, we need a cuddle.
Speaker 2:You know we have that capacity to go. Oh, how do I help them be okay in this arena when they're little? But as soon as people get to grown up we're like, yeah, get a grip yeah, and then we label yeah, and then the gaps between us get bigger.
Speaker 2:I think it's really coming from a place where everyone can change. Yes, someone's probably damaged. Someone's probably unconsciously scared. Yeah, recognising games will always play out. It's part of who we are. Recognising games will always play out. It's part of who we are. How, within a team, how do we start to build that real sort of resilient cycle of healthiness where we can operate slightly differently? Yeah, and I think having that time, as you said earlier, the time and space to explore what is going on with this team, is what we do, and I always think it's quite interesting when people ask us to come in and fix their team in a day and you go no, half a day even.
Speaker 2:And it's like, and you push back and you might say to whoever it is well, talk me through what benefits that might have. And then you go. Really, I need about 12 months with this team to have any impact on them. But again, there's this not understanding it about just investing in that level. The systems, how we work together, can actually then impact on all the other bits, can't it? Because it's clear, it's transparent, it's open. We know where we stand. There's clarity, there's boundaries, all of that lovely stuff we look for. If you're seeing, as a leader of a team or a function or you know, a virtual or just for the day you're just leaving, for the day, you have the ability to create the microclimate you know, yes, yeah, I love that with you.
Speaker 2:This is how it feels yeah, when you're in this team, this is how we are, and that's somewhat um in ta. We call it co-creative, which is how do we have that discussion that said, how do we work, yeah, how do we do it, and then that leader's position is to hold that, that semi-permeable boundary. That goes okay, that that's how. That's how we do it here. But if we, if we've got, if we've got an input into how we work, then we're more invested, a bit like saying, if you weren't here, we've decided we're doing this, I go, I don't want to do that. Yeah, if I was in the room saying I think we should do this, I'm more likely to come up with something. We're so complex, aren't we? I love this Because the team I was working with it was interesting.
Speaker 2:I was just there just to hear the first bit in the morning, then do a bit of our stuff. So I wasn't a key facilitator on it. I was just as a guest, if you like. But I came along and listened from the morning and it was really interesting that there was no. And as a facilitator, like we do, we sit there and go, oh, there's no, how are we going to work together? There was no. Who are we in the room. This is the first time we've got together for a very long time. So how are we? There was none of that and and I could understand why a couple of people felt nervous in that room you could sense it as you walked in. So they did the intros and they did everything and and then I got to do my bit and I went. Okay, before we start, let's do a bit of a check-in. You know where are you now and it was, and they all went, oh, and that just exploded the conversation. But it was really hard for me to sit there and go. Are you not going to agree? You have to work. But then that's my script right coming through. Yeah, and I think it's.
Speaker 2:We were, um, we were talking about this yesterday at the bird around how, like you know, there's a. There's a belief that a third of our scripts so we form it when we're little tiny and then we develop it further, practice it more in our educational script. So a third of our script is really from our educational script. And when someone's coming into a team or coming into a room with somebody, all that stuff. If you've come from a very small family, yes, where you've got maybe just your mum and dad and you. You've gone to a village school and then you go. We're a team day, 25 of us. Yeah, oh, I don't feel safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 2:not, he's not conscious, there's just a or we might, you know, and often we'll see that pop up, because someone will say what time are you getting out of here? Yeah, exactly when's the break to someone trying to at least tell me when this ends, so that I feel safe while I'm in this room yeah, give me something to feel safe about, because I've got no idea what we're going to do.
Speaker 2:yeah, what's going to happen. So you know it is. Our script is playing out and I think there's something. We had a chat around the value of spending time as a team and really digging below the surface and looking at all that, you know, the script, matrix and all that stuff and how some teams just go no, we'll go bowling. Yeah, that fix everything and it is recognising.
Speaker 1:That's great, that's fantastic Having a team having fun together is lovely, but you're going to be bowling in your script.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it's still going to play out. And yeah, you're going to be bowling in your script. Yeah, exactly, it's still going to play out and you'll have a joint experience you can laugh about. Yeah, there'll someone say. There'll still be someone saying did you see how he bowled exactly? There'll still be games and all that.
Speaker 2:So yeah oh my god. I think I mean this whole topic. Linds, as you know, is always fascinating and we we do. We're very privileged to see it play out and we always manage it in a way that gets people to open up a bit more and a bit more and a bit more when we work with them and you do see it shift and you do see a team come together and you know, make a difference. It's keeping it going.
Speaker 2:But what else could people do to maybe address some of those organizational saboteurs? So you mentioned about actually having a conversation. So having the kahunas to step in doesn't matter whether it's like, oh my God, this is so uncomfortable, I'm going to do it anyway. It's one of those. But I know I always bang on about how clear have the expectations been? Have you set the expectations around what's expected of people in that moment? Not in four years time, but now? What else can people do to help, I suppose, navigate through it?
Speaker 2:I think the challenge sometimes is what you know, I think real, genuine saboteurs that are genuinely wanting to disrupt. I think that's very, very rare. I think it's probably like 1% of your, you know, I, that's, your that's. I don't think that plays out in real life. It's usually change of a script, wounded, and I think you know, if I think first of all it's no, it's, it's picking it up if you're going, oh, that feels as you say, it had that conversation, just felt. You know, I say I would say sometimes you'll leave a conversation or you'll finish a team's call. You know, my explanation is always like walking out the sea with seaweed wrapped around your leg.
Speaker 2:If you're feeling that there's usually that is usually a game invitation or a game playing out because you're you're sensing it, so I say don't ignore it. Yes, first of all, I think, notice it. If it's always with the same person, then you're getting a sense that that this could be gaming. Now, sometimes that sabotage is so under the radar, you, it's hard to pick up. And I think one of the things we say in TA is see what you say, what you see, say what you see, yeah. And I think one of the things we say in TA is say what you see, say what you see, yeah. And I think it is that beautiful phrase which is do you know what, debs? I could be completely wrong, yeah, but I got the feeling in that call there was something going on. Yeah, what's she thinking? Yeah, what are you thinking?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always love that and they're like no what do you mean?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, mean, no, no, but what that? What that says is I've clocked it. I know, I know that you now know, I know I've now bought it from again. Something's happening at the meta level down here and I bought it up to here. Yes, and I go okay.
Speaker 2:So if we see that playing out, can we contract about? If I see that, if I notice that again, are you okay with you? If I just call it in the moment, yeah, and have a conversation? If I notice, yeah, yeah, and it's that isn't it being the permission to challenge? I suppose setting the parameters around it, isn't it? Which is why we say you know, we always say we always know. If we're in a room working together, then you look at me, I look at you and we go, oh, there's a question there, and we both go. You ask it at the same time, literally ask it at the same time, literally ask it at the same time. I go, can we ask you a question? So we ask permission to ask, but we've already set up at the very beginning right, that we may ask questions to go a bit deeper, yeah, and I think really, I think it's really genuinely holding, holding this belief that they're okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely yeah just because someone's doing that, there's okayness there. That's just they might even know they're doing it. Yeah, exactly so deep in their script. They haven't even yeah, they haven't even noticed that they're having a sarky comment everywhere. Yeah, but you know you're having that trust if you're giving recognition, all the good stuff that they do. You know, are you making you feel, making sure everyone feels, like they matter here?
Speaker 1:yeah, are you?
Speaker 2:making sure everyone here is having positive um reinforcement for strokes for the good, who they are and what they do yeah, do they feel like they belong here and then if you're doing all that stuff, then you can have really clean conversations.
Speaker 2:If you're not doing any of that stuff, it's harder to step in and have that really honest conversation. But if you're doing all that, you're going. You know what? I think, what I saw, what I noticed was, um, and then, and it's so, I, I so much, I'm going to tell you what I just noticed, rather than go, did she, did she not? And keeping it in, yeah, and then you just play and it infestors and oh, it just gets messy, then doesn't it with toxicity. And I think this topic is one that people, I think, shy away from because it can be difficult, right? I think it's not always conscious, you're not always sure you're like is it?
Speaker 2:yeah, but that's the sense, isn't it yeah? I think, if you're going, is it me? Yeah, no sense check, this is somebody is it yeah?
Speaker 2:if you're having that feeling, I'll say I always say trust that, trust that intuition, because it's telling you something. It might not be about the person, it might be about the organization, it might be about the situation. Situation. There's something in your body that's going eh, yeah, trust your instinct. Right, check it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, check it out. Check it out, though. Is it right, is it wrong? And I think you know, having no assumptions around it, you know. So. That's why reaching out and talking to someone, as you said I could, what I've noticed is, or how I'm feeling about this, is I'm really curious.
Speaker 2:Curious yeah what that face was telling, that face you pulled in that meeting, yeah.
Speaker 1:What was that about? I'm really curious about that face.
Speaker 2:Tell me more. Tell me more. What else? Yeah, I love that. Certainly, we know we certainly know the most stagnant ponds, that we've worked with, people that just don't want to be here, don't want to do it, don't want to talk, don't want to come to a meeting, don't want to be involved. You know, once you give them the air and the water, it's like a flower that's never been watered. They bloom, yeah, they do, and it's wonderful to see. So no one's Unreachable, it's just they're just not as okay as they could be. Yeah, and then it's how do we create the environment for them to thrive and flourish? Right, so?
Speaker 1:and we can do that, we can all do that, um, but I suppose it's.
Speaker 2:I would say that's if you want to, it's a choice, right? Yeah, sometimes the organization won't let you. Sometimes you'll try, do things and whatever you do, the organization will go yeah, we're not doing, not consciously, you'll just be stymied because the organization's like, no, we're going're going in this, we're still doing this. Oh, my God, I love it. So, linz, I know we've talked a lot about this so we have to get you back to do some more, but if there was one thing you would encourage people to consider around the organizational script saboteurs, that type of thing what would it be? I think it's really building that transactional to relational relationship. So I know you well enough beyond what you're doing so that I can have those conversations. Yes, that we might be able to flush out something they're doing out of awareness. Yeah, because if we overhear in transactional, it's very difficult to go to that. Yeah, how are you? What's going on for you place? You've not got built that relationship. So I hear no, no surprise here, it's all about relational stuff. Yeah, relational I love it. It always is. It's about the relationships you build, right? It's all about people getting on with people, right? So it's not it. I mean, I think we make it complicated, but I think that getting to know and calling it and having that depth we could.
Speaker 2:You know, I was talking about having that ability to have astute relationship management. You're not being asked to go home and live with them and love them, but you are having to work with people. So how do you get the best out of it when you're together? Really how? And as someone in a team working a team, you know we all have, we all have a relationship. It's not, it's not a responsibility to make people feel like they matter, to make people feel like you know they genuinely belong here. You know, we was working in a team yesterday and it was two teams. It was ta, organizational ta, education and organization. We came together for three days and then we walked. We really laughed because we'd sat that side and then it's not that time. How funny, consciously, just all we know this stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know it's like, oh, that's interested in margo. So then then we say, okay, what we're going to do about that? Yeah, because safe, you know, we naturally go to safety. Yeah, we do. It's been built within us right to survive. Yeah I love it okay let me go build a relationship with somebody over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's I suppose that's where we have those crazy games that we play, where they have to go talk to someone they've never spoken to before. So it's a little bit like go on, you can do it, you can do it. So it's a famous phrase, though if you walk in the room, I mention your name. Now it's going what you're thinking, how you're feeling. That's the stuff, no, the questions that take you from transactional. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, see that they're always meant to be. Yeah, practice them. So, lynn's, this has been fascinating and I know, whenever you know we speak and you share your wisdom with us, that we always get messages coming back and going. Can you give us more? Can you tell us what that means? So I think I'm to.
Speaker 2:I normally do my call to action at the end of the pod with Laura when we top and tail it, but my call to action is those that are listening. That says, if you want to know more about this, because it is so pivotal to how we can get the best out of our lives. We've only got one life, live it well. And if there's questions you have for lynn's, then please, please, drop them. Drop us an email with the questions for lynn's. That, yeah, you know we. You can reach us on contact at secrets from a coachcom and put the questions to it, and then we may get lynn's back to do a q a um around what people wanted to know, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2:I think I love about transactional analysis is that it takes really complex things around organization and self and then makes it easy to understand. It does, yeah, Simple models. And you know, I think Eric Byrne had a really clever way of doing it and he's long gone past, bless him. But you know the people in the TA world have carried that on and it gives us really simple frameworks for really complex things yeah that's true. Which makes our job, I think, somewhat easier. Yeah, oh, my god, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love chatting to you, linds, but enjoy the rest of your um your workshop early in the morning.
Speaker 2:I love that. Thanks, linds, I appreciate you. Thank you for having me yeah, and you and have a good rest of the day. Love you. Bye. So, law, what was your takeaways?
Speaker 1:oh my goodness. I mean, it's just such a complicated world, isn't it, of why people do what they do and the impact that group behavior can have, and, as always, lynn's just describes it in such a tangible, easy, easy to understand way. So you know, again, just forever grateful. Every time I have a conversation with her, I always leave feeling just a little bit more equipped to spot stuff, put a word to it and then you can do something about it.
Speaker 2:So I feel really it's really empowering and I think it's a great listen for anyone who is about to move into a new role or a new part of the organization and wants to start clean and to start fresh yeah, definitely I just loved it and obviously I did my call to action, but asking people, if they wanted to ask her any questions about this, to drop us a note and let us know so, because I think it's really important that we do have questions and knowing that we can speak to someone like Lynne, who makes it really simplistic, has the ability to sort of make sense of it and gives you some real practical tips really as to what you can do to enhance the organisational script but then which impacts on you and all of the systems and the relational stuff as well that comes into it. So, yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she talks so brilliantly about shifting from a transactional to a relational way of working sort of with the team. And I guess my share the secret would be two share the secrets, actually. So the first one would be have you got a friend who you think has been marked as being a troublemaker in their world of work? Get them to listen to this, because this might help them reframe it in their mind and actually think about. Well, the reason why I'm sort of challenging stuff is because I can see there's an opportunity to make things better. So hopefully, by listening to Linz, there's some strategies to be able to do that in a way that doesn't seem like you are a troublemaker. You're actually trying to make things better.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, have you got a friend who has been sort of saying to you I think my time's marked where I'm at, I'm an uncomfortable employee, as one of our HR friends said. And then the second share of the secret would be if you know someone who works in that world of health and safety, because I think there is such an interesting link between well, a vital link between human behaviour and group behaviour and individual everyday actions that people might do, and it's always interesting to cross that profession of psychology and organisational psychology into that profession of health and safety discipline. So yeah, have you got a friend who you think's been sort of tarnished as a troublemaker. Give them an empowering listen to sort of reframe that. And do you know someone who works in health and safety who actually wants to bring some of this human behaviour psychology into what they do to make that genuine difference?
Speaker 2:also add into that those people that are maybe joining small family-run companies, because there is definitely, if it's a family-built business, an organizational script that has been embedded within that company because of the father figures, owners, mothers who have set up their businesses and then they passed it on. So I think, also being aware of that, if you're joining a small family-run business, check that out as well, because there will be a script running with it. So, yeah, I loved it. So looking forward to our next episode on this one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that is such a good catch. Debs about the family businesses. The matriarch is real. Yeah, as is the patriarch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, it's all good. So what are we talking about next week, laurel?
Speaker 1:Oh well, next week we are going to be looking at continuation on the All About Reducing Drama, and the focus next week is going to be about reducing negative team friction. So friction can sometimes bring brilliant sort of sparks of creativity, but what happens if it starts to turn a little bit sour? So, yeah, we'll be looking at some practical strategies, some real easy to apply and yeah, in terms of reducing workplace drama and that team friction stuff. So really looking forward to that, debs.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's a good one. I'm looking forward to that. So, in the meantime, have a really good rest of the week and, yeah, let's keep looking at what will help, what will hinder and how we can be better at it oh yeah, you two devs and good luck.
Speaker 1:We can play like. We can play like where's wally like, spot the saboteur, what the saboteur it's over there having an ice cream I love it, love it.
Speaker 2:We'll have a good week, laura. Oh, you too, devs.
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