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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
222. Time to Think About Your Mind Health
Welcome to our latest 4-part mini-series where we invite you to 'take time' to think about 4 important topics that underpin a thriving work-life in the 2020s. In this episode we explore the essential need for us to prioritise our mind health - for our own personal wellness as well as collectively as part of a thriving workplace culture. (PLEASE NOTE: This episode has references to suicide)
We are honoured to be joined by Professor Tim Marsh (author of ‘Talking Safety’, ‘Handbook of Organised Wellbeing’ and other books) who shares the stark research demonstrating the very real impact that poor mental health is having on the workplace. Tim was one of the team leaders of the original UK research into behavioural safety in the early 1990s and has played a significant role in making workplaces safer over the last 30 years.
We explore the realities, challenges and opportunities surrounding mind health in this decade and why it is so important to take time to prioritise this topic. We also discuss the impact of gender and generational differences and what this means for how we approach this topic with colleagues. A powerful listen, as Tim says 'you never know that you might have prevented' by having a kind word.
(PLEASE NOTE: This episode has references to suicide)
You can connect with Tim via his LinkedIn profile here
He is the co-founder of Anker & Marsh (providing a full series of safety, health and wellbeing training, assessment and consultancy services) alongside Jason Anker
You can purchase the book he mentions here
Details about the life-changing On Trial event that we discuss can be found in Tim's write up here and by contacting P2BS
Secrets from a coach thrive and maximize your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with debbie green of wishfish and laura thompson, stavely of phenomenal training. Deb's how you doing. Yeah, I'm doing really well, thank you. I can hear by your voice. You've been shouting at people again. I can hear.
Speaker 2:Debs, I have. I've been just taking it out and not even listening to anybody saying it's all been all about me. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
Speaker 1:Exactly, she doesn't ask any questions. No, never ask questions.
Speaker 2:She's been running conflict management courses, just shouting at people. I've been taking time, have I law?
Speaker 1:oh, I love that you shoehorned that in because that is our focus for this next four-part series, which is looking at taking some time out to think about the big things that can actually make some some big and, as always with a share, the secret call to action to take some of these big things into everyday practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I must admit, laura, this interview we have here, you have to tell us, first of all, how did you and Professor Tim Marsh get together, because this interview we're about to hear, with you and him this time chatting away about all things mind health, mental health and all sorts of things actually mindset safety, culture, psychological culture, psychosocial. He just throws it all in the mix, which is amazing. How did you meet?
Speaker 1:okay. Well, I was already a real fan of Professor Tim Marsh because I had a couple of his books and he just writes so easily and so accessibly around creating great health and safety cultures at workplaces so just some really fascinating stuff. So I already was kind of aware of Tim's work in this field. And then our colleague Deb Gale and I went to an incredible event called On Trial, which was about six months ago and the organization is running more of those, so I'll put a link in the overview as to how you can find out info. But it was the most extraordinary learning experience I've ever been to. We were basically taken through a trial reconstruction, where you then see firsthand some of the awful situations that you know people have unsadly found themselves in as a result of being witness to or part of a workplace accident, and it really brings it to life.
Speaker 1:And Professor Tim Marsh was used as the expert witness in this learning event and then struck up conversation after and then mentioned what we do said actually it would be incredible not just to quote what you say around mental health and in particular, the focus on men's mental health, but to have actually a conversation with you as part of our podcast interview and he signed up readily. And here we are. So, um, yeah, and this was a comfort zone stretch for me, debs, because normally you are, you are the one that is in conversation, but this time I had a go. So for the first time in our four and a half years, I had the interview with our guest. So I hope I did you proud, debs asking all the right questions.
Speaker 2:You did me more than proud and I was listening to it and it was just really cool because just going back to you and Gailey coming out of that and you were giving us an update on the impact that that had that on trial had with you was just incredible. And to actually listen to you, talk to him, you could feel some of that passion and that just intrigue and that wow. You know that your honor to speak to somebody like that who's been around the block, to say the least, not to give anything away. He sort of gives a bit of his backstory at the very beginning of the interview. So make sure you're listening to that. But how he talks about it is so, so powerful. So, um, yeah, it was brilliant, law, I loved listening to it and I was going, oh, I didn't know that and it was all about learning. So shall we take a listen and see what your wonderful interview was all about?
Speaker 1:Hello. So it's a real delight to be here in conversation with Professor Tim Marsh. So, tim, I'll ask you in a moment to give us an overview as to who you are and the experience you've got around this topic. You and I met in person at an event back in November, so I can share a bit more about that as we warm up, but it was an absolute pleasure to meet you and what an honour to have you here. So, tim, tell us about you, your professional background, area of interest over to you.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, my background is that I sort of studied psychology in my late 20s, became a psychologist around the age of 30. First job was looking at suicides in the army, but there's not much call for that. There certainly wasn't back in 1990. It's all changed now, of course. So I got seconded into a behavioral safety project that Manchester University was running of course home of James Reason and people and then went commercial so spent the next 10 years on an oil rig really doing behavioral safety, safety, leadership, safety culture, and I specialized in that ever since, obviously using a lot of soft skills to try and enhance dialogue and interpersonal relations and so on.
Speaker 3:In recent years I've got together with a guy called Jason Anker and we talk not about his fall that paralyzed him, but his breakdown following his fall, his drug addiction, his alcoholism, his semi-suicide attempt that damn, nearly killed him, and so specializing in really the interlink now between mental health mindset, as Carol Dweck would have it, and accidents and incidents of all types, and particularly looking at a suicide and the fact that you know we've become aware in recent years that the ratio of people killed at work in the UK to working age people who take their own lives is 32 to 1. So it's a huge issue. It's a huge issue.
Speaker 1:I've not heard that stat oh my goodness, so just bring that to life. A huge issue. I've not heard that stat oh my goodness, so just bring that to life a little bit in terms of what that actually means.
Speaker 3:What that means is in the UK we'll lose about 140, 150 people to industrial accidents. You know, falling off things, being crushed by things, but we'll lose more than 4,000 working age people to suicide.
Speaker 1:In a year.
Speaker 3:In a year.
Speaker 1:Goodness me.
Speaker 3:So that's a 32 to 1 ratio. So it's a colour. And obviously the key thing when you're looking at risk and managing an organisation and the win-win issue is if you've got somebody who's hanging by a thread, you know, coming down Heinrich's principle just having a really bad day, that's an awful lot of people who aren't fully focused and who aren't likely to be contributing a whole bunch of stuff that you want them to be doing, like discretionary effort and so on.
Speaker 1:So wow, so picking that on and thinking about what does that mean that we can then take to do something about that? What influence does company culture have on some of these things that you're seeing around, that your research has shown? So what? What in your experience and research, have you seen that actually is a call to action for workplaces, particularly if you might have a workplace that says, well, actually, safety isn't really important to us because we're here to make money. Everyone's based from home, there's no machinery that we're using as such. Actually, what does this kind of mean for us in terms of having a safe culture? So what's your sort of thoughts around that cultural aspect and the influence that has?
Speaker 3:well, you know culture is king. You know culture is a huge element of good work is good for you. Bad bad work is bad for you. And, of course, if you're working or you know, walking away from good old-fashioned accidents and looking at mental health and well-being, well, huge amounts of work, whether it's at home or not at home, is psychosocial. I mean a lot of the risks and a lot of the issues are psychosocial about isolation and poor quality communication and teamwork and so on. And so they say one in five. You know, one in five of us is having a really bad day on any given day.
Speaker 3:Well, if you think that maybe in a terrible culture, you know it's more like you know one in four, one in three, and in a really good culture, we can boil it down to maybe one in 10, through the benefits of good work is good for you and all the things that flow from that. Absolutely, you know, culture is absolutely key. And and so one of the things, if I can give you an example, you know, you know we've been banging on for years about the, the magic, but so you know, it's always the meat of a sentence after a, but everything else before is just flannel. So so you know you're a really lovely woman and I've really enjoyed these last couple of weeks. Dating you but means you know I'm off, doesn't it essentially? Well, probably be the other way around in our case, wouldn't it? But you know what I mean he's such a charmer but you know, we, we know what you mean.
Speaker 3:You know and in in the safety world, you know people don't say go over there and take a risk and I don't care if you die or not. Nobody says that. They say I want this job doing safely, but by friday. And what it means is you get it by friday, as safely as is viable, um and and corners are cut and workarounds are come up with because you know what the organization wants and you know which side your bread is buttered on, and so on, and so we spend a lot of time saying what you have to say is safely and by Friday.
Speaker 3:Now, if there's a problem with that, what we need to do is to sit around the table with a Coke and a Mars bar, talk that through. And two incredibly important things flow from that discussion. The first one is a much better analysis of the risk and therefore a much better risk assessment and procedures and so on. And the second one is just a much better way to be treated, because you know what happens is, if the shit hits the fan, whoops, if the crap hits the fan, I shouldn't swear and it all goes.
Speaker 1:Don't worry, Tim, this is a safe environment.
Speaker 3:Okay, it all goes belly up, you know, or somewhere slightly north of that. What happens is the supervisor will say, well, I said safely, I've really explicitly said safely, I don't know what's gone wrong. And the worker will, of course, will say, well, you kind of did. But you know, unless you've got fancy lawyers or cctv footage, it's just a mess from then and it's all about reaction and not being proactive. So, getting that dialogue you know safety differently. Get it right when they say you know safety differently. Get it right when they say you know, the best question you can ask somebody is let's be honest about it, I want you to make me lots of money, but I don't want you to hurt yourself while you're doing it. And if you actually enjoy your job, even better. What you need, what you need from me, it's the same question. It's that, that culture of respect and communication and analysis, all the Carol Dweck stuff, all the Amy Edmondson stuff about psychological safety. It's just about treating people well, really, and it's good for you.
Speaker 1:How much is that influenced by? I've heard it been sort of discussed as the leadership shadow, so the impact that leadership voice is having. So, in your experience, what influence does a board and the way in which the top echelons of an organisation filter down into the main areas, the frontline areas of organisations? So what role, the trickle down effect, is there such a thing in terms of how the board talk about this stuff and the influence that has on frontline teams?
Speaker 3:Well, the short answer is absolutely and hugely. But to expand on that, you know a very specific study I was taken by in the world of well-being. It was looking at bike riding schemes. I think it was Fidelity, it doesn't matter anyway, a large company. They did a big study and what they found was the number three reason for people actually riding bikes more was that they had somewhere safe to store them safe and secure to store them. Number two was that they had shower facilities so they could get dry and ready for work. Number one was that there was some sort of metric that the board, the senior management, could monitor to see how it was going.
Speaker 3:So it's a commitment piece. It's always a commitment piece, isn't it? Back in the days of behavioral safety, it was. You know which methodologies work best? Well, all of them, just as long as management commitment is there. And if there isn't, then none of them, frankly. And so exactly the same. But you know, a campaign stressing the vital importance and benefits of riding came in at sixth. So all these campaigns, bikes and bananas, you know, going around, it's just free bananas for people who already eat fruit, frankly, you know so. But but a metric, some sort of meaningful. You know, if you can measure it, you can manage it. What gets measured gets, gets done, all that sort of stuff. It was ever thus. So, just to go back to the original answer hugely, absolutely yes, and hugely so linking this into mind health or mental health?
Speaker 1:I guess the sort of the first question to just hear from your perspective is is there still a stigma of people? So if we're saying that a board and how the board are acting and how the board are talking influences, is there there still a stigma attached to, let's say, people in senior positions keeping quiet about this stuff? One of our colleagues, lindsay. She shared a stat with us a number of years ago that people would be more comfortable saying that they had to take some time off work for diarrhoea than depression. So that was around about sort of 2020, 2021, she shared that sort of insight with us here in 2025, thinking about the next second half of this decade. To what extent is there a stigma attached still to talking about this stuff and what influence does that have on being able to make things better or worse?
Speaker 3:well it's. You know it's better than it was. It's a lot better than it was. I just walked to the shops and I walked past a big poster saying Andy's man Club. Life is tough, but so are you. Come and talk. It's a sea change, but it's still absolutely vital, absolutely vital.
Speaker 3:And there still is a stigma. I think Carol Black back in the day was talking about 80% of people who were off with bad backs are actually off with depression and anxiety. You know, and if you think about it, you know, when you have a bad back, when I have a bad back, I do my stretch, I go to work, I stand up on my feet all day and do my presentation. I just do some stretching exercises as I go, you know. So there's definitely still a stigma about it, but we are addressing it, you know, and more so, jason tells it. You know, and, and, and more so, jason tells in.
Speaker 3:My business partner, jason anchor, tells a lovely story of him doing his mental health presentation is his is one that he does, and he said that the ceo was at the back of the room, pacing back and forth and stood up, sat down, paced back and forth, stood up, sat down and then eventually, with about five minutes to go as the questions were winding up, stroked at the stage and said you lot, thought I had a month off in the Seychelles, asked you as a sabbatical a well-earned sabbatical. I wasn't at all, I'd had a breakdown. I just thought this was the moment to share it and and more. And it's just last week. More and more events like this are happening.
Speaker 1:And what impact does that have on the room in the moment and the subsequent ripple effect following that disclosure from someone in a senior position role modelling out there to the organisation. What impact does that have in that moment?
Speaker 3:and moving on, Well, it's huge, isn't it? We just talked about it. We tend to give people what we think they want. We tend to focus on the things that we think senior people are focusing on. So if somebody senior stands up and says, look, I'm prepared to talk about it, Of course the shadow that it throws enables other people to be more likely to talk about it. You know, we keep talking about black and white stuff. You know, if you do this, then this will happen no, just more likely and we're shifting, but we are shifting it. We are definitely shifting it.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned Andy's.
Speaker 3:Man.
Speaker 1:Club. I'd love to lean into a topic that for some reason it feels a bit controversial, even just asking the question. So to what extent are there differences to how men might talk about this stuff and women might talk about this stuff? So if I see now what we've seen in our world menopause and talking about female related things to do with menopause is kind of out there. People are talking about it, women are quite open, sort of discussing that, you know, at work and talking about air con and having a hot flush and all that kind of stuff. So I can, you know, sort of observe actually, wow, there's some things that are now okay to talk about that 10 years ago would just never have been sort of uttered.
Speaker 1:But to what extent is there either research or anecdotes or stuff that men and women have different relationships with mental health and how they talk about it? And gender is such a hot topic? That's why I'm sort of almost asking the question with trepidation. But if the stats tell us, yes, there are gender related differences, then I guess that's a really important point to explore. So Andy's man club as opposed to Andy's people club, so there must be something that is gender related to kind of warrant that. So I'd love to hear your experience on that, because I just think we've all got a man in our life, you know, in whatever form, and it would just be, yeah, just really, really useful to hear your perspective from a research and an anecdotal perspective. Gender and mental health.
Speaker 3:Oh, you know it's really difficult to talk about this, isn't it? I mean, I've got a daughter. If I even talk about the difference between men and women, we'll hunt me down and shoot me. She's down in Brighton doing radical feminist studies as we speak. So it is really difficult because it's so contentious.
Speaker 3:But the bottom line is, if you accept that your typical bloke is different from a typical woman, and women talk more, are more supportive, are able to have quality dialogue about issues more frequently and and in more depth than than two men can. You know, we talk about. It's good to talk, dialogue is key, but if women do that more naturally and more often, that would explain why people of my age, men of my age, are just so bloody useless at opening up and talking about our feelings. Just up the road from where Gary Speed used to live, for example, just to give a simple example, it feels like an epidemic, almost. You know, an epidemic 4,000 people in the UK last year of working age, the majority of which were, of course, men, and the reason being we're useless when it comes to this stuff. We're good in a fight as a rule, we're quite good at designing bridges, I think, but when it comes to all the important stuff, we're not so good.
Speaker 1:What, in your experience, helps, and what impact can one person in their workplace have on encouraging people? So what impact can one person who thinks you know what? I'm listening to this, actually, I think I can see an opportunity for me to do something, but what can I do about it? So what have you seen that in practice works to help get men talking about mental health and and therefore being able to open up in that way? That then maybe makes things a bit easier? So yeah, what in your experience, practically helps?
Speaker 3:Well, you know I. To go back to first principles from behavioral safety, you know, one of the big problems with good behavioral safety is you don't know what you've stopped. You never know what you've stopped. Nine times out of ten you don't know what you've stopped because it was a replaced toll board or a bit of tidying up of poor housekeeping the hard hat that saves you, you know all about. If that breaks the chain, it's a bit of a shock, but it's the stuff upstream with that you don't know about. And it's the same with with mental health and well-being. You don't know when a really good conversation, a kind word, makes all the difference, and and so you know. No, no proof either way. But if more of us have more kind and concerned conversations, fewer people will go off and take their own lives. Which which conversation it is, you'll never know, but you, you know you need to get stuck in, you know.
Speaker 3:So we talk about all the. You know when we have our own training that we do at anchor to marsh, and we talk about the, the golden law of middle-aged men, which is, if you ask me how I am, by law I have to respond with I'm fine, thank you, how are you so we have to ask twice. I mean, if you can see that, that's just you know, press and play, we have to ask twice. Or we can ask a better question. We can say, well, you look a bit tired, are you sleeping? All right. And I'll say, oh no, I said crap last night, absolutely crap. Couldn't have got more than three hours. Well, why was that? Oh well, you know, and possibly off we go, you know. Or clearly I've asked the wrong question at the wrong time. Maybe I can ask later in a canteen on the way home, in a different way.
Speaker 1:I want to dig deeper. What is it about one human sharing this info and opening up? That is where the good stuff happens. So I'd just love to know, from almost a theoretical perspective, if it's good to talk, if actually there are things that certain age men can learn from certain age typical women. So if we just kind of take that sort of typical bit, what is it actually about the process of opening up and talking to someone that does the good stuff?
Speaker 3:It allows them to connect, I think, and it allows a transference of empathy, if you like. You know, you know people around you cry, you tend to burst into tears and you don't know why. But there's all sorts of things up here going, you know, and all sorts of subconscious physiology going on, but but the bottom line is it's a connection, and a simple connection. I have a very simple example. You know, you talk to someone, you think they look a bit iffy and you're okay, yeah, I'm fine, you sure, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And you know, if you've ever seen Curb your Enthusiasm, you know, with Larry David, are you? But are you really all right? And you know, and if you do it properly, how many times have you had somebody just kind of go boom, no, and and you know, and the next thing, you know, you're giving them a cuddle because your persistence allows a connection there, or a display of commitment, that that allows them to know that you really care and sometimes that will save your life, without doubt. Hence, the Samaritans, of course, and all those other helplines and so on.
Speaker 1:What impact does being busy or a sense of pressure in a workplace have on someone's mental health in their work? So what impact does busyness pressure? I know it sounds like an obvious kind of question, but what are some insights you can share with us that for anyone here that's thinking, you know there's a lot of noise going on in my work at the moment. Everyone's really busy. I'd love to have these conversations but there's just no time to ask that follow-up question. What would be some things that would just enable us to empower ourselves to create that time? So what impact does being busy have on this stuff?
Speaker 3:well, two, two things. Um, two, two things to talk about. One is, uh, flow and and the second one is the stress curve. You know, the stress curve basically says look, you know, not enough. Stress means you're likely to be quite idle and underpowered. Get the stress level just right and your're at your maximum performance. Overcook it and you start getting stressed.
Speaker 3:You know, as we understand it, if you can get people at the top of the stress curve for most of the day, what they tend to be is focused, energized and in flow, and flow essentially means time's passing quickly because you're doing something that you engrossed in. I mean, if you can go, po go, and it's five o'clock, well, that absolutely is a key element of good work is good for you. So get that wrong, and obviously you're talking about bad work is bad for you. So it's as simple as that. We're allowed to be under pressure at work, but what we're not allowed to be is just squeezed within an inch of our life with nobody caring what's happening next. So it's all about tailoring and talking to the individual and just checking in and making sure they're okay.
Speaker 1:In our world. We work with a lot of organisations that have remote based teams, hybrid working. It's still quite a controversial topic now, even sort of four or five years on since the sort of sudden lockdowns about when are people invited or dragged to come back into an office versus working from home. What, from your perspective and the research you've been directly and indirectly involved in what impact hybrid working on mental health in the workplace and what would be some food for thought when thinking about actually how to make hybrid work work. So what, what impact hybrid working and what might be some takeaways that we could all start applying that would help from a mental health perspective well, I mean, that really is a 64 000 question.
Speaker 3:This one isn't it, because it depends. It depends on the person, it depends on the day. You know you have an awful lot of people who say I love, I love hybrid, working up until about three o'clock and then the kids come home and it's a nightmare, or what, and so on. So it, it depends. You know, introverts, people on the autistic spectrum, who like to be able to really focus in on what they're doing, you know that sort of solitude, fine by them, extroverts slightly less so, and and so on. So it, it depends to it to a great extent. But you know there are studies that show, for example, talking on zoom is quite stressful because there's a split second delay that causes a certain level of stress somewhere physiological, that you don't get if you're standing next to people. On the other hand, when you're finished, you can take the dog for a walk instantly, or you know, and so on. So it, it depends. Is is the uh, is is the answer.
Speaker 3:And the key thing, of course, is what? What you know, if you are the sort of person who doesn't always like homework, you know, or doesn't like it, who is trying trying to pick that up. So all the stuff that you kind of do, naturally, if you're sitting around a table. Are you all right? Can I get you a coffee? You know you're looking a bit stressed, and so on. You need to make more of an effort to do it. So you need to be setting up regular Zooms and phoning people up and just generally trying to touch base with them and give them that feeling of being part of a team, being a valued part of a team. That is less likely to happen, naturally, if we're all scattered all over.
Speaker 1:You see, I think what is just so fascinating chatting with you, Professor Tim Marsh, is a lot of the stuff that you're saying. I'm then thinking right, this is just feels so familiar when we think about how to create engaged teams so they sell more, how to create an engaged frontline team so they deliver best customer service. There are so many parallels to the other measures within an organization, to the other measures within an organization. So the soft skills element of it, whether we're talking about hard and fast metrics around safety, health and well-being, actually there's a lot of those similar principles, whether you're looking to get best customer service or internal levels of best safety or mental health levels. So it'd be great to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 1:So you said in passing when we had a first chat about how you started to talk about transactional analysis back 30 years ago and everyone's eyebrows raised with what. So what role soft skills in actually these very hard parts of the realities of modern working life and what would your encouragement be in terms of what that means from sort of everyday habits point of view? So what role soft skills in what traditionally would have been seen as quite a black and white? It is or it isn't safety, health and safety industry and the sort of the fluffy stuff, and actually how that's the enabler for this. So it'd be brilliant to get your insight on that around. The role of soft skills in all of this.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, that's a pretty straightforward answer. Actually, soft skills I mean, first of all, don't call them soft skills. You have to call them non-technical skills, right? Soft skills makes them sound less important than they actually are. And the man who wrote the book about it quite literally about 100 years ago, Carnegie he was all over it and huge amounts of books still incredibly relevant. But you know, and Bill McFarlane wrote Dr Pink Elephant. That's full of great stuff as well. There's loads of good books about him.
Speaker 3:But but the thing is, if you're talking about people, you're talking about how you can get them demotivated, distracted, pissed off, you know, which leads to things that we really don't want. Like I said, distraction and lack of situational awareness, fatalism and poor quality interactions, poor quality decision making all the stuff that we don't want them to do if they're all switched on and focused and positive. So one of the things we can do with that we talked about the but conversation, making it an and conversation, that's key. But things like staying in your middle bubble, if you know your transaction analysis, don't patronize them by talking down to them, don't have a tantrum in front of them, just talk to them like an adult at all times, you know. So an assertive disagreement would be well, I want to do this. Well, I think you're wrong, boss. Or why do you think I'm wrong? Well, because of X, of x, I think y is more important, right, okay? Well, thanks for listening. Yep, and if you. But if you're wrong, I'm going to come over here and say I told you so well, I wouldn't expect anything less, thank you, that's an assertive disagreement, adult to adult. You know, obviously, that the infamously, the head of BP apparently finished meetings by saying so, those cuts. Then anybody got a problem with that. No good, get on with it then. And and of course, um, there were some books written about that, mostly by andrew hopkins, but uh, bad things then happened in due course. So so a whole bunch of stuff around soft skills.
Speaker 3:So we spent some time doing presentation skills because you know, for presentation, a toolbox talk or a brief is an incredibly important key element of your safety process and it's done really badly, that's not a good thing. If it's done really well, that is a good thing. So presentation skills, we do. We do how to give negative feedback in a constructive way. Don't generalize, don't personalize, do it in private and so on.
Speaker 3:The vital importance of praising when you can, because praise is 20 times as effective as criticism in changing somebody's behavior. So if culture creation is about getting people to behave in ways that we'd like them to, and praise is 20 times as effective as criticism, you probably want to work on how to do praise and how to do coaching quite well, quite well, and talking through the mechanics of coaching use illustration, use data, use questions, you know, use positive questions, high value questions. All that good stuff and so absolutely any. But for me, anybody in charge of anybody anywhere should have had courses in all that stuff. And, uh, not, not everybody has, which is fine, because that's how I make my living.
Speaker 1:And we shall share details of how to get in touch with you at the end.
Speaker 1:So I'd love to hear a couple of examples of where you've seen best practice happen and the benefit as a result of that, so that someone listening might be saying you know what that sounds like a really good idea. I think our workplace needs that. Let me go and engage and get some resource or some time or some galvanize some sort of followers in on that. So what might be a couple of examples that you've seen in some of the organizations you've worked with that have either got better from a mental health perspective and making things as best as they can, or of where best practices is happening and then the benefits that you've seen as a result of that. And if that just sparks just a couple of ideas from anyone listening at this point, thinking that sounds like a really great idea, I'm going to bring that to life in my work. So what could be some examples just right here, right now? That actually could be some simple things that could make all the difference to make things better.
Speaker 3:Well, soft skills I won't name names, but I remember somebody coming up to me once and saying we're going to do a behavioral safety program and we're not going to do any of your nonsense about you know, abc analysis and just culture and cheese models, none of that. We're just going to do soft skills for supervisors. And I thought, oh okay, I think that sounds excellent and it worked really well because it's incredibly important. You know, and I was a coaching question once with a submarine maker which now I sit down a bit, but submarine maker and they said they went on, I think it was an IOSH course, that I'd run an open IOSH course from which they took the coaching question.
Speaker 3:You know, a really good coaching question and a really good coaching question is really good coaching question is how good are you? Not a 10, all right. So, laura, how good, how good a driver are you? Not to 10? Oh uh, eight, brilliant, so okay. So eight, fantastic, I've seen you drive. That seems unlikely. But anyway, you know, bander aside, you know eight.
Speaker 3:And what I must do is say you know, but you're a safety professional, why aren't you a 10? I mustn't do that. I have to say well, that's, you know eight. And what I must do is say you know, but you're a safety professional, why aren't you a 10? I mustn't do that. I have to say well, that's excellent, you know fantastic. And I praise you. And we try and develop a bit of rapport as I lavish you with praise for being such a good driver and you say I haven't actually bumped my car in 20 years. Oh, maybe eight's a bit low, and so on. But then I say well, you know what my job is. I'm a safety coach. So if I can have my unsafes, that's a step change in safety right there. So if I can get you from an eight to a nine, from a two to a one unsafe, as it were, that's my job done. How can we get you up to a nine?
Speaker 3:And you say, oh well, sometimes I don't plan quite as well as I should, quite as well as I should, and whatever, and off we go. And then you make an internal promise that you actually mean and you take it on the roads with you. I think it's Marshall Goldman, I think, came up with that. One stole it many, many years ago and incorporated it into our training. But this particular company said each safety rep is going to have two, one to ten conversations a week with somebody out on the shop floor and we're going to collate the stuff that we get and and use that. They win all sorts of awards with that. That was it, nothing else. No abc analysis, no, no measures, no feedback chats, no goal setting, no safety leadership training, nothing, just the safety reps doing a one in ten conversation twice a week which, of course, is that chance to connect to, to be listened, to have that sense of some engagement.
Speaker 1:So if I'm having, if I'm one of those one in five people having a tough day, actually, that conversation and coaching is always future focused, isn't it? So it sort of brings a bit of optimism to it as well. So that might be that connection moment that not only has a physical safety benefit but from a mental health benefit. That's that human connection moment. We just happen to have bonded over the safety aspect.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. And you know, obviously you can't stop people saying well, I can get from six to eight if you do this for me and we're back to safety differently. A third case study for you a young woman who was head of safety for a small construction company based in London and she was brilliant. Everybody said she's brilliant, you should head under and make you a consultant. And I asked her what her secret was and she said I just go and talk to them. I just go on the yard and I talk to the lads and I don't ask about safety, I ask about football, I ask about family, I ask about their love lives. I just talk to them. And I said and then you finish off with safety questions, nah, nah, I just go on the yard all the time and if they've got anything they need to say to me, just come and talk to me. So that was her tactic, which is exactly what you're talking about, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the trust. So the trust element of it, talking of which we've got a couple of clients where whom, for whatever reason, things have happened where there is a perception of mistrust of higher management, anything that you've picked up in your experiences of where there's maybe been a bit of a them and us and some things that can help close the gap and, I guess, linking that into our key topic of mental health, if I feel like I belong here and it's not them lot who are in my way and there's that kind of mistrust. So, just while I sort of got you on that topic about creating that trust, anything that you can give that just might help someone with whom is working in an environment at the moment where there is a mistrust of a certain group of people, whether that's senior leaders or frontline that you have seen helped heal and mend those, those divisions from a practical point of view.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean the truth, going out and getting drunk with them is always the classic one, isn't it? And then you're all best friends, and that thing I said I never meant it's not always possible and team building with rafts and that sort of thing. The truth is, though, some people you don't trust because they're not very trustworthy. I mean, you know, and the truth of it is not everybody speaks straight, and if you work for an organization who keep promising the earth and then don't deliver, and keep saying they'll treat you fairly and then don't, there's a very good chance. That's reflective of a culture which is going to take years to change. And if you can't trust somebody and you know you can't trust somebody, go and find somebody else to work with, would be my advice.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah, thank you so much, and our main topic has been around mental health. What would just be great is if there are any sort of final bits that you think. Actually you know that's a point I want to kind of make, and then I know you've got a particular passion area at the moment, so that's a nice way to then kind of end, but would there be any kind of final encouragements or words of advice for anyone with whom this is a live hot topic for them that, just from your experience, can just really help from a mental health perspective? And this has been part of our time to think about focus and this has been a brilliant first one that we've had, thinking about the really vital topic of mental health. So any kind of final points that you can leave us with and then inspire us with your current passion project.
Speaker 3:The obvious one is if you're struggling, if you know you're struggling, just talk to somebody. I mean, there's the Samaritans, there's Andy's man Club, there's all sorts of organizations Ripple, and I can't even remember there were so many, but they're Googleable in seconds. If you're here in Wales, there's Broad, the men's mental health charity and its sister charity. Just talk to somebody, because you absolutely do not have to be suffering in silence anymore and you will find somebody who will have your back and connect with you and show you some empathy and kindness. So, don't you know? Don't give up.
Speaker 1:Thank you and tell us about your latest book and what we can do to support you.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you ever so much Because last week, with the British Safety Council launched a book, a collection of my articles from over the years. They called it Wisdom. I desperately, desperately tried to persuade them to call it Attempts at Wisdom. They wouldn't have it, they said.
Speaker 3:But anyway, it's a collection of articles over the last 30 years and blogs and so on, things like the thing the six things that freud would teach a safety professional you know why gandhi would make a great safety professional or whatever. You know not nonsense in there and some more serious articles that try and address the shift from safety to to health and safety and mental health and physiological limitations. So there's stuff we've been talking about. The important thing is that you can get it from the British Safety Council easily enough and all the money £10 donation we're asking for goes directly to Mates in Mind and the local charity here who did such a wonderful job with my son-in-law not so long ago called Browd spelt Browd pronounced Browd and they share, share the money. So if you're, if you're thinking this was an interesting talk and you'd like to hear me waffling on in print form, uh, makes a great one to take to the toilet because the short articles.
Speaker 1:And it's called the wisdom and wit of a Psychologist. And well, speaking as a total fan of your books, that's going to add to my growing collection and I can't thank you enough. It's been an absolutely fascinating conversation and I really appreciate your time and I wish you every success. Of course, you're going to have our backing with the book as well. And I think just to cover some of these topics, the small stuff and the big stuff and in terms of taking time to think about mental health. So, Tim, it's been an absolute pleasure. And if there, yeah, any final message, I tell you what would be useful. We used to ask this. We haven't asked this for a while. What would your 16 old self had been saying to yourself about the type of career you wanted, and where might that be? That's actually come true. So what would the 16 year old version of you had thought about the type of career that you were going to get into? And is that same but different as the kind of years have gone on?
Speaker 3:Oh dear, that's a bit of a curveball Actually, though I can answer this one. You know I can answer this one. Definitely, the 16-year-old me was slightly unfocused. I got it in my head I was definitely going to be a golf pro, but without putting in the practice that was required, so that didn't work out very well.
Speaker 3:But really up until I was in my mid-twenties, if I was an Australian I think they would have called me a larrikin, but it meant a succession of jobs in a succession of different industries, none of which I took at all seriously, and causing a lot of grief. Obviously, supervisors and employers and parents and relatives found me a lot of grief, you know. Obviously supervisors and employers and parents and relatives, uh, found me, found me quite stressful really. But as it turned out, I ended up being an occupational psychologist.
Speaker 3:So this many and varied travels around the back of walrus, vans and banks and god knows what, that turned out to be a wonderful apprenticeship for for being an occupational psychologist, and in particular, you know, because I used to organize the forklift truck racing tournaments, and all that as an 18-year-old who didn't understand how dangerous it was, because you don't until you're 22, 23. Your brain hasn't matured enough, I'd have been a lot more relaxed because I was actually doing an apprenticeship and it meant when I became an occupational psychologist I was very much poacher gamekeeper and that really helps because I do actually doing an apprenticeship and it meant when I became an occupational psychologist I was very much poacher gamekeeper and that really helps because I do, I think, understand what's going on when people say why are they doing that? Why wouldn't they be given a chance?
Speaker 1:Do you know? I'm so glad I asked you that question because that goes out to anyone who's currently parenting a 16, 17, 18 year old, just thinking, oh my goodness that you know they're displaying larrikin tendencies. And actually, as the years go on, all of that then at some point has then made sense and enabled you to bring all the insight you do to your role now. So, yeah, that goes out to anyone who's currently rolling their eyes when someone says what's your kid up to? Oh, actually at some point it comes good.
Speaker 1:Well, we can't, we can't all be occupational psychologists well, until you choose to retire, and then there's plenty of space. Oh well, thank you so much, tim. Look after yourself, and I've really enjoyed this conversation. It means the world to us. Such a privilege to have you on.
Speaker 3:Thank you, you're very, you're very welcome laura, it's been a delight as of as expected, of course with your lovely self so no, thank you.
Speaker 1:All right, look after yourself. Thanks, tim bye so law?
Speaker 2:oh my goodness, that was an interview and a half, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:it, certainly was it was amazing the time flew by for me I'm not sure how it did for you listening, but yeah, it did it flew by it really did and some of the things that, um, you were talking around which were slightly controversial, but also some of the stats around you. Know what's going on around you. Know what's happening in the world today and how we can have great conversations with people around you. Know suicidal thoughts or just talking about mental health generally or mind health and I think, the questions you ask around generations and also around gender.
Speaker 2:I just thought it was fascinating because I think the more we do I'm a big believer in talking about it the better it is and the more we raise awareness to it, and I just loved it. He sort of banged the drum around ask twice, ask great questions and I just thought it was really incredible and the stats were like whoa, I had not really been fully aware of some of them and to hear it from him, who does this as his day job every day, and linking it back into just great leadership, really with a small L and I think, around asking great questions and caring and empathy and that transference of empathy I thought was really lovely. It was beautiful way of putting it. It was amazing. What did you take from it after your reflections?
Speaker 1:I took from it.
Speaker 1:I mean I just was, you know, reviewing it in my head because I just found it really fascinating and I think what those stats indicate which I hadn't sort of I was in such shock, really when he sort of shared it, I hadn't really had a chance to process it is maybe you're as at risk for there being something not great happen to your life, whether you're sitting there working as a desk, not just people that are down mining in a dark hole where there's some very obvious physical threats to your safety and I think that was the wake up call is that actually you might not have what is considered on paper a very risky job, but if you're in an environment that has all those toxic elements of it, then actually you're at risk of something not great happening.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it really stuck with me. That was quite an eye opener, and I think there are millions of people that are in a desk based role that wouldn't consider their job being a high risk one desk-based role that wouldn't consider their job being a high risk one. But I think it just enables us to prioritise and take time for these things that actually can become life or death, and take that time to have a conversation, to check in on yourself, to check in on your colleagues. You don't have to be the line manager in an organisational hierarchy to just ask those questions.
Speaker 2:Ask the questions yeah, and I think what I loved was around. He talks about the management commitment being key. It's not just a tick box exercise, and I think that you're role modeling it but also investing in it. Not just tick box. I think it is so important. Otherwise, if you don't care, then who does? And not just playing lip service to it, but committing to it. So I think that message he landed was oh my God, it was like yes, please listen to this message.
Speaker 2:And also, what I also loved was when he said you don't know what you stopped by having a conversation with somebody which is exactly it. You have no idea just by that kind word or reaching out to someone and go. You know I may be completely wrong, but you don't look yourself today, whatever it is, you've noticed that person and cared enough to ask them. You have no idea what you might have stopped in them. And I just thought that was such a smart way of just putting it out there and saying, yeah, you just don't know the impact you're having. So to lift your head up look, care, ask.
Speaker 2:That would be my call to action as well, laura. If you think something's not right, ask the question and don't just take their first answer. Ask the next question and the next one, if you have to word in that one moment can transform somebody's life forever. You may not know that, but to know that you could do and we have done, it's just unimaginable that that one kind word could make the biggest difference to that person's life. Love that. So my call to action is ask questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love it. Thank you. My share of the secret would be sometimes I think you can sort of be sitting in one industry and assume that each industry almost is completely separate. I think there's just so many parallels and things we can transfer from sort of a work site to a working office almost. So my share of the secret would be if you are friends with someone who works in an organisation where this stuff isn't taken seriously, where they haven't had a wake up call or something really bad happen that's made people kind of pay attention to it. Getting to listen to this and the whole setup we've got for February is just some different approaches to just remind us around, when all is said and done, there are some really important big things that are important to take time out for. So my share of the secret would be, if you've got anyone who you know works in an industry that sort of rolls their eyes a little bit about this stuff, get them to listen to this, because those stats stand out for themselves really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm with you 100% and I'm so glad we're doing this topic because it's just we're so busy in our crazy worlds that we live in that if we don't take that time, we're not helping ourselves or helping others. So I'm looking forward to next week as well and the other episodes we've got going on in this month. It'd be fascinating. It made me slow down as well. Absolutely Deb Rest, that little voice of yours, so you can shout at more naughty people.
Speaker 1:Exactly so.
Speaker 1:Thank you, professor Tim Martin, an absolute honour and a real real privilege to speak to someone who has had such an amazing career of providing such a great service in this area. You know countless lives that he's positively impacted him and the team, so we'll put his various ways to get hold of him and that on trial event as well, which is part of the Anchor and Marsh and it was Matt Hazleton who ran that event, so we'll put all the details in the overview. So, debs, we've got some more brilliant topics to bring attention to for this four part focus looking at take time too, including conversations around working well with our boss, dealing with maybe some challenging workplace behaviours, and also thinking about how to take time out for ourself as well amongst all of those priorities. So we've got some great guests awaiting us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, looking forward to it, Laure, but in the meantime, take time for you and have a great week.
Speaker 1:Oh, will do Devs. Love you lots. Have a brilliant week. Thank you, bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secrets from a coachcom, or follow us on insta or facebook. If you'rea spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work. You