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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
223. Time to Work Well With Your Boss
In the second of our 4-part 'time to think' mini-series, we focus on the element that has a huge impact on our performance wellbeing at work: the relationship with our boss. According to Gallup, managers (more than any other factor) influence team engagement and performance. 70% of the variance in team engagement is determined solely by the manager (Gallup, 2021) but not all managers are easy to engage with!
We are thrilled to be joined by Jill Walker, author of the 2007 book Is Your Boss Mad? Jill is passionate about teaching people to deal with bosses who are bullies or who let us down. She shares tips to identify, from the interview process onwards, what sort of boss we may be letting ourselves in for.
Always practical, she shares some great tips to improve communication skills, boundary management and actions which are useful to reset an inappropriate power dynamic. Bosses are humans too, so this also has some great tips to focus on getting the best out of a challenging boss who may be under pressure themselves. A useful and uplifting listen for anyone who is finding leadership dynamics a challenge at the moment. Bringing this to the modern realities of AI, hybrid working and intergenerational differences, through understanding what might be going on beneath 'mad boss' behaviours we can reclaim our power and take steps to redress the power balance.
You can find Jill's wildly entertaining (as well as empoweringly practical) ‘Is Your Boss Mad?’ book here
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, how you doing? Yeah, I'm doing really well. How's your week been so far?
Speaker 2:It's been a bit busy to be honest Law, so I'm trying to find time to say no and also to create some clear boundaries for the short term why everything's going on at home.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, debs. Well, you know, the balance is real, which is why we wanted our four-part focus to be all about taking time out to think about some of these big things. Well, you know, the balance is real, and which is why we wanted our four-part focus to be all about taking time out to think about some of these big things. Well, last episode we were looking at probably the biggest thing of all is looking after your mental health and your mind health.
Speaker 1:This episode is looking at how do we work well with our boss, and it's interesting this concept of a boss right? According to one of the most recent Gallup polls, 70% of the variance in a team's level of engagement and happiness is dictated by the relationship with a manager. So, wanted or not, those two M&Ms get in the way of our everyday work experience managers and meetings. And a meeting with your manager could, you know, potentially make or break your experience of the day. Yeah, so it's going to be fascinating to listen to our podcast guest today. Yes, and, but before we sort of dive in, how live is this topic? So what are you hearing around you, as a coach in particular? Yeah, about just how important it is to work well with a boss oh it is.
Speaker 2:It is really important and jill, who you're here in a minute that you spoke to law, it is to work well with a boss. Oh, it is really important. And Jill, who you're here in a minute that you spoke to Laura, I think now, as the boss, you are there as the enabler, to enable people to do their jobs well. Most people turn up to do a good job. Nobody gets employed to go. Oh, I think I'll do a rubbish job now.
Speaker 2:So the fact is that it's so important and some people are questioning whether their boss is mad, which is what Jill talks about or if it's a little bit of like. I don't know what I'm doing, but people are wanting to work alongside people now. So a boss's role has shifted, definitely, and I think we have to do a little bit of a rethink around what that looks like so important at the moment, because people are a little bit confused. Some I'm working with are lacking clarity from what's expected of them. So, yeah, there's a couple of little sort of things that are rumbling under the surface that if they have that conversation with their boss or manager or whoever quicker, then it won't escalate into something that creates resentment and like or all of that stuff. So it's really important at the moment. It's a transition at the moment.
Speaker 1:Well, debs, I'm really hoping you enjoy this conversation, because what is not to love about someone whose email address is jill at isyourbossmadcom?
Speaker 2:That's brilliant. Is that her email? Oh, my God, I love that. That is her email. Yeah, it was really good. So, yeah, should we have a listen to what she had to say, because she had some really great points through when she was talking to you, Laura, about her own experience, but also that of others, when she was doing her research and getting her book ready, and it was just fascinating to listen in to her. So shall we take a listen?
Speaker 1:in to her. So shall we take a listen? Well, hello, what a pleasure to be sitting here with Jill Wilson. Jill, I'll let you explain yourself in a moment your background and, in particular, around the book that you wrote. But this was prompted off the back of a really interesting conversation we had at a Christmas party recently, and myself and Deb thought we just have to get Jill in to come and talk about this, because it's just a really important topic and it forms part of our time to think about some of these big things in our work life, which is our current four-part series. So, jill, hello, hello. So tell us about this book that you've written. Just even the title alone will already start to set the scene.
Speaker 3:Well, it was a little while ago, laura, but it's still a big part of my life because it keeps cropping up everywhere. I still get my royalties. I wrote a book called Is your Boss Mad I was at the time. The background as to why I wrote it I have four children.
Speaker 3:At school, I was working about 50 miles from where I lived, doing a very high-pressured software sales role, and they started behaving. The company I was working for started behaving very oddly and it was one of those is it me, is it me? Moments. And it all culminated in an absolutely atrocious meeting with various executives flying in and they asked me in to question me about my sales figures, which were completely fine. I had a million dollar target. I'd sold $850,000 and it was six months in and these two executives sat on the desk in front of me. I sat on a chair between them, lower two guys, and they were slamming their hands on the desk saying you know you could do better, jill. You could do better. What are you going to do for the rest of the year?
Speaker 3:And my jaw was dropping Like I had so much on my plate. I thought I was doing okay and they were like telling me how I was doing badly and I just couldn't understand it. I was just, I was in shock, so went home and had a shower. It was a shower moment, laura, just thought I'd share that with you and I thought is he mad? Is he mad? You know, literally that's how the book title came out. So I thought I can't afford therapy, I'll have to write it down, and that's how I started the book.
Speaker 1:I'll have to write it down and that's how I started the book. Wow, what process did writing that book give you, as well as all the people that have read it and have found it helpful? What process did that bring you, that action of writing the book?
Speaker 3:Well, I realised I couldn't write a book about one business and one experience. And as I started speaking to people I would say have you ever worked where you've been unhappy, or have you ever worked for someone who's really difficult? And the scary thing was how many people said, yeah, I've had a terrible experience. And people just wanted to share. They wanted to tell me their stories about the terrible situations they'd had. All these different types of bosses that are out there that were causing misery. I started to collect the stories. I literally used to travel around. Wherever I went, like we met at the party, I'd have a little notebook and I'd make a note if someone said this happened or that happened. And then I started to see different profiles of bosses emerging. So I created nothing. Nothing was 100% real. They were partially fictionalized, as you say, to save people's face. And I just had nine I think it's nine case studies in the book of different types of boss, how to deal with them. It's not 100 percent PC, but it will keep you sane.
Speaker 1:So, wow, I mean, what really stuck with me when we had our catch up chat about this was just some of the startling facts around the link between psychopathic behaviour and senior leaders. So just take us through some of those kind of headers because I think it really does get you thinking about just how important this stuff is and the impact it can have on people's lives.
Speaker 3:Well, in the late 90s there was a study at the University of Surrey that discovered that there were common traits between successful bosses, successful and patients of Broadmoor Hospital former and current patients of Broadmoor Hospital Narcissistic tendencies I'm reading it because it's so unbelievable, but it's actually out there Compulsive personality disorders of all sorts, histrionics, self-loving themselves, narcissistic, mostly these sort of tendencies. And they found the same traits in bosses and business leaders. And it wasn't even per country, it was everywhere around the world. And when you add that to this is just an example. Last year over 16 million workdays were lost in the UK due to mental health issues and stress. But people always used to say oh, you know, I've got a bad back, I'm not going into work and stress is the modern version of the bad back. And the bad back was probably real because you're so stressed and tense. But bad back has been replaced by stress and mental health. It's absolutely appalling how much time is wasted. Unhappy people yeah.
Speaker 1:And to what extent, based on the research you've done behind the book and your observations kind of leading up to it and after, what impact can a boss have on someone's productivity and enjoyment of their work? So what impact real world does this have on people?
Speaker 3:Oh it's well. Apart from the bad back, it is just pure misery. There's fear. You think you can't leave. You start to lose track of your own reality. You think you're worthless. It's not good for your family life. You go home, you're going to argue with your spouse. You're not happy. It's just all the worst things you can imagine. It's fear, lack of self-confidence, self-loathing. Just worry about money. It's a mess. It has a terrible impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think what's always important to us is to make sure that we don't kind of, you know, get into boss bashing so just sort of keep that sort of balanced perspective. So I guess sort of humans are bosses too. But it'd be really interesting to get your thoughts on what's the difference between a bad, sad or mad boss, if we were to use those kind of three words, and then you know what your sort of your pathway or your options sort of might be. So is that useful? Is that helpful just to sort of look at the difference between the type of challenging boss you might have and what might lie beneath it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the challenge of a boss might not be. Well, I'll explain it first and then it will make sense. So if you're working for someone and this actually could go into personal life, despite what we were talking about earlier If you're working for someone, it's okay for them to stand next to you and say I hate that competitor, I wish the market wasn't changed, I want to get the desks changed, I don't like the water machine, the car park's too busy. It's okay for them to talk about any aspect and complain to you about anything that's going on at work, but not to make you the object of it. So it's taking that, transferring that frustration that they might feel with any aspect of the work and taking it out on you. And also, if they are going through a divorce or they were at a party and are drunk, or they've borrowed too much money or they're worried about their mortgage, those things can't be taken out on you. So you can have a boss who's difficult, but if the difficulty is because you're almost sharing it with them, because you're part of the company, if the market's bad, that affects you, it affects your boss. You can share that and work together to fix it. But if he's annoyed with you and saying you're lazy, you've got to stay late, or swearing or making you do things you don't want to do, then that's not acceptable. But he might be complaining, but it's about something that's valid and not personal. Really aware of that and to realize that the workers are there to share in the problems and that makes it a lot easier for people to help. I mean this also relates to do you find that there are certain people at certain levels that are worse than others, and my research has shown that wherever you have a person in charge of another person or managing, I should say person in charge of another person or managing I should say managing other people or a person these problems can arise.
Speaker 3:And the biggest problem is people put in charge of people. No one's whispered in their ear. You're not here to tell people what to do. You're here to enable this team to do their job, but that just so often doesn't get passed on. Oh, I'm in charge of you. You know. I'm going to tell you what to do and when you can leave. No, we're all here to make money for the business. You're not here to tell me what to do. You're here to enable me.
Speaker 1:That, oh that is brilliant. You've delivered some beautiful snippets there. Two thoughts going through my mind. First off, there was, it was referenced in the book. Two thoughts going through my mind. First off, it was referenced in the book Humankind. They talked about this experiment. That was done. They called it the cookie experiment.
Speaker 1:So the question I'm going to ask you is what's the chicken and egg here? So does power warp behavior to then bring out some of these bad boss behaviors? Or was that person sort of had that kind of potential anyway? But the cookie monster experiment was.
Speaker 1:Picture the scene. You got five people who have been they think they're participating in a market research conversation. So there's five people around the table and there's six cookies. So when everyone's just gone in and they haven't had a secret briefing as to who's chairing the meeting, what they saw with human behavior is because actually what they were observing was how many cookies has each person helped themselves to? And what they found is, when people go in and they're just five, equals everyone took one cookie each and then left the sixth cookie untouched.
Speaker 1:Is that if they sort of tapped one of them on the shoulders, they went in and say by the way, you're the lead on this meeting, they would find invariably, that whoever had been assigned the leader just before going into this meeting would help themselves to the sixth cookie and leave more mess on the table than the others. So what this experiment was sort of showing is does power warp someone? So is it the act of being promoted at some point in that career? That just starts this trajectory of I'm in charge and I've got to tell people what to do, so you just got me thinking about that as you were talking about. You know, actually, that what does it mean to, in your mind, be a leader?
Speaker 3:That sounds like that experiment sort of proved it straight away, assuming that there was a good correlation between the number of people. You know if it was 90% or whatever. I think when, for my own situation in writing the book, that isn't something that I sort of covered. I was so focused on helping you in your job tomorrow. How can you have a better day? How can you start to take control of your life? I hadn't thought about whether that was the corrupting thing. I think it might be a bit of both. It probably doesn't help if you're already power mad.
Speaker 1:That's very true, and of course, we're all about enabling and empowering. I just loved how you just defined that in just such a really clear way. So am I right in thinking it's okay to have a challenging boss who is talking about an external challenge? How do we then deal with that? And they might use quite challenging language, but it's us against the world rather than challenging directly and sort of being sort of called out. So what would be your list of things that? So, let's say, someone is kind of listening to this on the way into a role and they're thinking some of this seems a bit familiar. What, for you, would be some classic behaviours to just watch out for? And if there's anyone thinking, is it me, Is it me? And actually you can just empower with a bit of you know? No, it's probably not. You know, it might actually be.
Speaker 3:Can I split this into two sections? Because there's the potential boss's behaviours and then there's you're driving into this interview. But how do you, before you even get in front of the boss, how do you set yourself up for success? Because this is another thing that happens. You think, oh, I'm going to change job, I want more money, or I want to be closer to home, or I want more time. And you think, oh, I'll go and get that job, and you know it's a little bit further away than you wanted. Oh, and the boss wants me in at half past seven and the money's not quite good, but they did say they're going to promote me. Don't set yourself up for failure before you've even got to the job, because I see people do this all the time. Oh, yes, I'm going to travel and I'm going to be home two days a week and then I'm going to do this. And you just think, oh, no, don't do that Because it's all fine. When you first get the first day at work, within three months you'll be miserable again and you've done it. So that's the first thing, that's the first tip. Now you get to the interview.
Speaker 3:It's all obvious stuff. This really. Do they start on time. Is he there? Does he remember your name or she? Do they offer you a drink? Are they friendly? Just basics like that. If they don't do that, I mean, are they going to treat you any different when you're there? That's what you've got to remember.
Speaker 3:This is a reflection of the person that you're going to get. Is the person I'll call it a he, just for the sake of the argument? He may mean she or he disclaimer. He's looking at his phone. He's looking at you. He's typing yeah, yeah, no, this isn't someone whose attention you're going to get. This isn't someone who's going to listen to you. You don't want someone who's easily distracted. You don't want someone who maybe cuts the meeting short, goes out, comes back, someone interrupts him because they think that's okay, maybe it was something serious. But that's your time with that person. That's been booked and they should invest in talking to you because hiring you is going to cost them money. You should be there for years. They're going to have to put in certain infrastructure and training If they're not taking that investment seriously. Is that where you really want to be?
Speaker 1:Love that advice, love that advice. So if there's someone thinking I've just got to leave where I'm currently at and actually anything would be better than this, actually, what your advice is is work out what are your non-negotiables. Don't bend at this stage just in desperation to leave, because you'll arrive at the same place.
Speaker 1:And also do you know what? Again, it sounds so simple, but it's not until you actually sort of position it clearly as whatever behaviour you see from that boss or the senior figures within that organisation. That is where it should be at its most respectful and its most politest at the start, because you haven't actually started signing any, you know signing it Absolutely To watch out for that, because that indicates what the behaviour standards are going to be like the culture, yeah, there is an exception to that and I have experienced and I don't know whether you've come across this, laura the negative interview.
Speaker 3:They do it a lot with salespeople, so they'll say okay, you're trying to sell product A and you've made three phone calls and nobody's answered the phone. What are you going to do about it? Oh, I'm going to send some emails, right? Nobody answers your emails. I'm going to put a sign outside the door. What happens if no one? And they push you and push you and push you until you're literally on your knees and you say I don't know, I don't know what else I can do. I'm done. But when it happened to me, I left the interview within 20 minutes, because the main thing they can't do is leave you hanging. They'd phone me and told me I got the job but it was hell. But if you knew, if I'd known even that I'd heard of this thing, I'd be thinking hang on a minute. I think this is a negative interview, but it's all about knowing, isn't it? It's all about power. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So what would your advice be for someone with whom is currently thinking about you know, I've got a new role coming on, so anything else to add, sort of beyond the interview stage, that for someone starting out in a new role to start well in terms of this power balance between yourself and your new boss.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think this is something I when I was younger, when I first started in the workplace, I was really bad at, and I know other people are better at it, but it's about being really aware. So when you start with the company, make sure that you've researched the latest. Have they just got into a lawsuit? Has one of their products been recalled? Has their building fallen down? Whatever? Is something going wrong that perhaps isn't going to be advertised to you because you're just starting there? Is there a new story?
Speaker 3:It's easy enough to research what's going on as the latest. And then the other thing is to. It's a bit more difficult and you've got to be subtle. You don't want to be like chatting all the time, but get to that water cooler, find out what you know. Who's pulling the strings? Who's really in charge? What happens on a Friday? Oh, his wife always comes in and he leaves early. Or her husband always picks her up and you can't talk to her on a Tuesday afternoon. Just be aware of all the strings and levers that are affecting your world as much as you can, and you can almost look at it as a bit of fun. You're like super sleuthing, trying to find out who is doing what. How do I get myself into a position where I can feel comfortable because I know what's going on? If you understand why someone is anxious, angry, short-tempered, cross short of time, all those things if you understand you can go. Oh yeah, okay I understand.
Speaker 1:I get it now. It's not me Actually. I can keep my power and keep that sort of self-confidence. Yeah, yeah, I can keep my power and keep that sort of self-confidence, yeah, yeah, so, taking that then into, if someone is kind of listening in and they're currently in a role, so what would be some things that you found you know in the process of writing this book and all the conversations you've had after that can help when you're in an environment and it feels like there's an imbalance of power.
Speaker 3:Oh, where do I start Now? I mean, I promised myself I wasn't going to say this, but you might have to get the book. There are all sorts of ones. I'll pick a couple.
Speaker 3:So we're in a hybrid and remote work scenario now and you know with your job what you signed up for. So if it's three days a week or two days a week in the office and that suits you because you have to take the dog for a walk or drop somebody at granny's or whatever it is, that two or three days might be what you're relying on. But it's very easy for the boss, who is nervous presenteeism they call it If they want to be able to see you, to know you're working, they may start pressuring you into trying to get you more in the office, even though that's not what you can contract it for. And this also applies to straight normal office jobs where they're trying to make you work later. So a really good way of, if you start to see this behavior of being pressured to be in the office more or work later, you have to pretend something, and this works like a treat, I can tell you right. So we talked about dropping someone at granny's or going taking the dog for a walk.
Speaker 3:If someone starts pressurizing you to work late, you have to invent a pottery class or a French group or a book club, because you have to be at it. Now, imagine it's real. You have to imagine it's real and you have to go, and then you can look your boss in the eye and say, oh, I'm so sorry, I have my pottery class tonight and you go, and then you don't have to worry that you're inventing a lie, because you've already told yourself it's real and I need to get away. This isn't healthy for me to stay. You might even take up pottery, who knows.
Speaker 3:But the main thing is to have a, because if you do have a real thing, it's so easy to do. I know I've done it. So if I've had to go to the dentist or pick up my kid from school, you say it to the boss and they go oh, okay, it's where you, where you dither. Or you say, oh, I can stay another 15 minutes, or oh, I need to be home around six. You know you can't do that. You got to look them straight in the eye and say I'm going to pottery, and then you go. So I don't know, it does work, trust me. Just think of something that you believe you could be doing.
Speaker 1:You know you've reminded me of a really fascinating conversation we had in the leadership workshop where we were talking about this idea of 21 packets of time in your week and how do you have, like you know, healthy on-off boundaries. And it was interesting to hear to a couple of people with whom their children were now in a different phase of being grown up, so they didn't need to be collected from football at 5.15 on a Friday, so they just were finding themselves working because they'd lost that external boundary line. So I think that's really interesting that you're saying that. Actually, it's tricky to stand for something and to hold your boundary if you haven't got one in place, whereas to put that in so to have a phantom boundary line, I love that Phantom boundary line.
Speaker 3:I wish I'd known that line, I could have put it in the book. So another thing that can happen and I'm really big on this and it could be right. So it's about the culture. And you might be in a big organization working for a department or a team, or you might be working for a local company that maybe is mostly made up, or 50% or more made up, of family members or people who've been there 20 years. These are very dangerous where the culture is not good.
Speaker 3:So let's take a really broad thing like health and safety, and somebody is telling you to climb up a ladder that's too high and not secured. I'm using that as an example. Whatever it is, it might be, I don't know, whatever it is using unsecured electrical goods or whatever it is. And you know that within that culture of that company or that department, that's what we always do. That's what we always do. We've always done it that way. And Margaret, she's been doing it for 20 years. And Steve, he doesn't have a problem, he always does it.
Speaker 3:And then they talk to you and they say, well, we want you to do this. And you think actually that's not right. I know that's not right, that's another boundary, I guess. So that's interesting, but you've got to.
Speaker 3:I mean, when my kids were little and they used to go on a school trip, I used to say, if the teacher tells you to cross the river and the river's flowing too fast, say no, I'll deal with the teacher. Just don't do as you're told. So they were grown up. They grew up with boundaries. But if you think it's not right, don't do it, just because it's the culture. It's really you have to be strong, but it's. It's terrible how some family businesses I mean, god bless them, there's some fantastic family businesses out there and they're not all the same, of course. So, uh, don't write in if you're a family business. But there is this thing about cultures where things become acceptable and that's a danger zone when they forget what's right and not right. I mean even sexist comments, the way people speak to each other. It can all be part of a sort of wrong culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so to what extent does an organisation going through change maybe prompt more of these kind of bad boss sort of behaviours? So you know we're working. I mean, I'm sure everyone has got experience of even if you're not directly in a role at the moment hearing about organisations and companies going through change, even if you're not directly in a role at the moment hearing about organisations and companies going through change. So it'd just be great to get your thoughts on to what extent does changeable times, when there's lots of things going on, bring out maybe more of these types of behaviours.
Speaker 3:I think it's a situation where it's almost like when you're starting a role, you've got to double down on your research about what is going on. I mean, I'm actually with an organization that loves going through change and we have quite a few changes through the time that I've been here and I think I can give some firsthand recent experience. And that is internal networking. Reach out to peers. People will tell you things. It just makes the world of difference if you it's again, it's going back to that understanding what's pulling the strings.
Speaker 3:A boss who is going through a reorg may feel they're under threat. Of course they, you don't. Perhaps they may even be more under threat than the, than the teams and the people who work for him or her. So I think by recognizing that in the person who that you might be working for or who's working for your colleague, whoever, that's probably the key in that scenario to just network internally, find out what's going on as much as you can. It's not about you. Other people are under stresses and strains and if they take it out on you it doesn't make it doesn't mean it's right, but it just makes everything a lot easier to deal with and if it gets, gets really bad. Call HR.
Speaker 1:That's just such good advice and I think, as always, it can just be really reassuring to listen to how you know it's such a known thing that there was a book. You wrote a book about it and you know I love your emphasis on it's about enabling people. So you might have a set of cards you're dealing with at the moment, but it's about enabling. So what would be on your list of advice or recommendations for the next five years? So for the next three to five years? Who knows what's going to happen over the next five?
Speaker 1:It was only five years ago we had a pandemic and now we've got AI and a lot can change in five years, but the relationship with a boss can really impact how that next five years feels in terms of that sort of workplace satisfaction. So what would your encouragement be for thinking mid to long-term about a good working relationship with your boss?
Speaker 3:I think bosses are getting better educated all the time. They're more accountable. Everybody's got cameras. Everybody's got recordings. It's. I think that there's a leveling up that has happened and is happening. It doesn't it's not universal, we know that, but there is a leveling up.
Speaker 3:I think you should and can be allowed to make the assumption that you're I always like the word alongside your boss. You're not, you're together. You can tell me that you'd like me in at nine. You can tell me that you want me to go to a meeting. You can tell me that you want to report by a certain time, but I want to be able to say should the report be like this or should we? Should we do it like this, cause I think your idea was a bit stuffy? Or you know you should be able to be alongside. It's the same in a customer and buyer situation, in a way. So I think the future will be you're alongside your boss.
Speaker 3:You're not a subordinate, because we all need each other. You can't be a boss if you haven't got anyone to boss about, and you can't. You know you need someone to tell you the outlines of what you're expected to do. So working is a fair exchange. You get the money. You get my time, but you don't. You don't get my soul, you know it's that's, that's gone.
Speaker 3:And I think the other biggest piece of advice I would say to people, which is it's sort of aligned to the topic, and also to bosses there, there's lots of fear, isn't there? Oh, ai tools oh, my God, you know, use them, go and use them. They're brilliant. My productivity is scaring my colleagues sometimes because the tools are there. It's a real opportunity for anyone who's employed. There are so many tools out there and if you haven't got them, make a case in your company. Go and get the tools, win the tools for your workforce.
Speaker 3:I think being afraid, or even perhaps that would be the challenge working for people who don't value them or who don't give them to you, is going to be their lookout. They need to maintain having employees who have access to them. So I would say embrace the future, embrace the tools. There's nothing to be afraid of and it's only going to make our lives easier. And, as I say, it's a big leveling exercise, if I can put my badly written report through chat, gpt or Copilot and it looks as good as the guy who went to public school for 10 years because I've run it through the grammar and the rewrite. That's a great thing to have. So we are leveled up, we have everything at our hands to be really good employees, valuable, product productive, and it's not so sweaty and gritty to have those tools. It helps you. So yeah, levelling up and use the tools.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that phrase about working alongside your boss rather than you know. That just feels so much more future focused and an aspiration for both sides. You know to be a great boss working alongside your people, because it can be lonely at the top as well and, as you sort of said earlier on about what might lie behind it, I feel proper fired up. So let's now get into a little bit of a as we sort of wrap up. What would your advice be for today's school kids about being a good boss of the future or getting the best out of their future boss? So you've just given us so many handy hints, and language as well, to empower the current adults in the workforce. But what would your encouragement be for either those who are parenting or linked to today's school children? About being a good boss or getting the best out of their boss, working well with their boss in the future?
Speaker 3:I think the school leavers of today will make great bosses because all this technology is they're going to naturally be leveled up. It's like if you see an entrepreneur on LinkedIn these days and he's going to be wearing jeans and he looks about 17 and he's really great. I mean, I think the guy who did Gymshark is a good example. He looks great. He's a typical young, team-focused entrepreneur. He seems great. I don't know everything about him, but he looks good as an example.
Speaker 3:I think the other challenge, from the point of view of why I wrote the book and what became evident through talking to people, was that some of the worst cases of bosses abusing employees was of abusing young people who hadn't the experience or confidence to tell the boss no, that culture is not right, that's not safe, no, I'm not doing that, or no, oh, oh, yeah, I'll stay late. You know they just didn't have the, the, the confidence, as I say, and the strength to be safe from some of these bosses. And I think, in a way and perhaps we've all done it well, you, you haven't done it yet, but you might, you were well, you won't because you've spoken to me. But when your kids start work, you know you pat them on the head as they leave the door and you've got your nice suit on or your clean shoes on or you be. You know, don't, forget, you know, don't I don't know just to behave, go out there and behave for your boss. But in actual fact we know from quite recent examples that doing what people tell you to do because they are your boss can be quite dangerous.
Speaker 3:So I think we have to raise a young workforce that is awake, recognizes everything I've been speaking about, recognize what's pulling the strings in your environment and don't be a total people pleaser. You don't have to. You know, if a boss says, oh, can you bring that to my room because you're staying away on a conference at a hotel, no, that shouldn't be asked. And you should know that shouldn't be asked and you don't do it. And you can smile and say, no, of course, not silly. You know. That's how we've got to take them. We've got to education. Knowledge is power. Don't sugar, soap it.
Speaker 3:When they go out to work, your precious darling isn't there to do everything that that boss asks them. They're there to do a job and you expect them to be treated fairly and safely and kindly and all those things. So I think talk to your school age or your university even university finishers, they haven't necessarily had much more experience and just give them the things to be careful about and to be aware out. And when they get back from work, what happened today? If they seem quiet, dig into it. Changes in behavior in your child at work. That might not be because they're tired or they're concentrating on a project, but maybe something else going on. So talk to your children before they start, talk to them when they start and see what they have to say. I think this can go right into the 20s. It's very, very dodgy.
Speaker 1:I just can't thank you enough for bringing those realities into that as well. And I'm just musing on my very first boss, actually, who equipped me with the confidence to be able to check into a hotel and say I don't want to stay in the ground floor, please, and also to say I don't want to stay in a room that's got an interconnecting door where I can't lock it myself, and actually I don't want to stay in a room that's got an interconnecting door where I can't lock it myself, and actually I don't want to stay in a room that doesn't have a bolt that goes across it, because those little things were never taught to me at school. I didn't have working parents who were staying in hotels. Because of the job I've always gone into, I've always stayed at hotels and here, 25 years on, I've had a few run-ins. You're very vulnerable when you're there traveling on your own, but I'm still here, spared and well today as a result of some of those yeah moments of holding firm to those boundaries.
Speaker 1:So I think it's even more important in a hybrid, remote world you might be less practiced, yeah these in-person scenarios, whether it's conferences or training courses. So, um, yeah, I just can't thank you enough, and this isn't about getting fearful about work, but it's about having your eyes open, being clued up, yeah, and, as you said, empowering us to be able to enable ourselves to get the best out of work, and that relationship with your boss just has such an impact on it. So, jill, I can't thank you enough. Is there any final messaging that you'd like to leave our listeners with when they think about that question? Is my boss mad? As well as get in the book, so we'll put the link in the description.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you. Just start to answer that yourself. Is he or is it something else going on? What is really happening? Step back, go home, calm down, but take a duvet day. You might not have one officially, but just pull a sickie. Take a duvet day. You might not have one officially, but just you know, take pull a sickie, think about what's happening, try and, as I say, like a super sleuth, just weigh up what is happening, try and find out. Try and find out more. Why is this person behaving badly?
Speaker 1:if that's what they're doing, so that's what that would be my advice Fantastic, thank you, and the process of doing that keeps you empowered with that kind of sort of balanced point of view. Jill, thank you so much. Well, I hope you have a wonderful, sane, calm, productive week ahead.
Speaker 3:I have a great boss. I have a great boss now.
Speaker 1:And thank you so much. It's meant the world to us having you on our podcast, so thank you so much. Lovely to speak to you, laura. Thank you, podcast, so thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Lovely to speak to you, Laura. Thank you.
Speaker 1:So, laura, it was a great interview, right. Yeah, loads of energy, loads of stuff. Two bits really stuck out for me. They were great to get your thoughts Just that whole aspect of a boss is there to work alongside people rather than sort of that you know dictating kind of thing. And also it really got me thinking about how I can be a good parent and how I can, you know, guide the next generation as well in terms of working well, and I thought there were some really poignant moments that she sort of mentioned. I imagine there were some bits that got you thinking. So what were some of your takeaways and reflections and encouragements from that piece?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there was a call. I'm with you on that, enabling and working alongside. I think also there was some elements of the boundary setting around it and how we can have a conversation around. If somebody is asking you to work later or it's creeping into your time, it's actually stopping and not going. Yes, like she said, don't be a people pleaser, but ask the question back. So, oh, help me understand is always my go-to. You know, I wasn't aware that that process has changed. Could you talk me through what's happened so I can avoid that mistake next time? Or can you let me know what's shifted so that I have an awareness of what I might need to do outside of work to manage my own time?
Speaker 2:So I think it's requesting and asking why, yeah, why has there been a change in what's going on? And this is the second time you've asked me to stay late. I'm intrigued as to what's shifted and what's changed. Can you explain to me please so I can better understand it? Thank you, and most people when you're asking it that way, out of respect, with assertiveness, they can't not answer you. Some of them she talks about family businesses, which are always an interesting thing. They say well, because I've just told you to. You know well, actually that's not going to help me and it certainly won't help us. So repeat and ask the question again.
Speaker 2:I think we have to hold our assertiveness around it and be honest and truthful as to why we can't stay late. And actually it's not. You know, no, it's an answer I think lex always says. Isn't one of our colleagues no is no is a complete sentence, but not no, it's like help me understand, tell me more what's changed, have the priorities so? So inquire first and then position actually, yes, you can, or no, you can't, because of I'd happy to help next time if you give me some notice.
Speaker 2:So it's that two-way conversation which is out of a respectful conversation really, but if you let it go it becomes it's harder. So then to say something that's not maybe true to you would be difficult to hold that truth, that lie, if you know. Hold the truth all the way long, cause the boss might remember and say oh, by the way, how is that going? Your art class or something you go? What art class? What am I? Ah, so, yeah, have an element of truth within that. I get where she was coming from on that, but for me it was like I didn't feel comfortable for me, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Well you've got to be true to yourself. You've got to be true to yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's whatever kind of enables you to feel confident in that moment. So massive thanks to Jill, because it was a fascinating conversation. It was my share of the secret would be and then, Debs, give us your call to action. Yeah, I will. If you've got a friend who is currently in a a recruitment process and is working out, you know where to go to next.
Speaker 1:I thought that stuff around having your radar open when you're there in an interview process was brilliant, because how they treat you at the start is going to indicate the journey and also just for anyone that's kind of finding their relationship with their manager a bit of a challenge at the moment. So that'd be my share of the secret, because it can be so reassuring to realise you're not the only one.
Speaker 2:In fact so much so there's been a book written about it. Yes, which she's done, which?
Speaker 1:she's done. So, dev, what would your call to action be?
Speaker 2:So my call to action would be especially around younger people stepping into the world of work. It would be definitely take an interest in them, ask them how's your day been, how is the people around you? Because they're learning Us. Old hands at this, have learned the hard way, but I think taking that interest in younger people in the workplace so because they're learning how to navigate their way through those tricky relationships sometimes. So, yeah, check in with them. Yeah, how's it going for you? That would be my call to action Check in and ask.
Speaker 1:So, des, we're halfway through our four-part focus looking at taking time, so we've had a couple of fantastic conversations so far, and then ahead we've got two big things on the radar to think about taking some time out, so really looking forward to that. In the meantime, devs have a fantastic week. You too, laura. May your interactions be lean and clean.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that and with appreciative inquiry questions. Beautiful, Love it. Have a good week.
Speaker 1:Laura, you too, diane, see you later Love you Bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work. You.