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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
225. Time to Talk About Coercive Control in the Workplace
In the final of our 4-part 'time to think' mini-series, we shine a light on one of the darker aspects of working relationships: coercive control. Whether this is an unhealthy manager/team member dynamic or between colleagues we explore what it means, what to watch out for and how to break the cycle. Many face the silent struggle of feeling manipulated or undervalued by their bosses or colleagues—a dilemma that is not often openly discussed but profoundly impacts workplace morale.
We dive deep into the characteristics of coercive control, exploring how it subtly manifests itself through micromanagement, gaslighting, or emotional manipulation.
A good listen for anyone feeling undervalued and controlled at work and wants practical tips for spotting these behaviours and empowering yourself.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, are you all right? Yeah, I'm all right. I'm currently sitting in a hotel room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought you were in a very different venue. What are you doing?
Speaker 1:Anything exciting, Well yes, I am co-facilitating a workshop with our Carlos looking at what does it mean to be part of a high-performing team, nice, and what's just been really interesting is, you know, as you know, we like to use insights, discovery, as the kind of the tool to have those conversations, and just how much in life is to do with relationships and having good quality, healthy relationships. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this episode because this is the fourth in our four part focus looking at time to think about mind health, how we deal with managing our boss relationship and how to plan and prioritise ourselves.
Speaker 1:And this one, debs, is all about the concept of time to think about coercive control in the workplace. So this term I'm not particularly familiar with it, so what has led us to then think, actually we need to talk about it, this idea of coercive control in the workplace? So give us a bit of a headline. What is it? Why is it of relevance now? And then we can then delve a bit deeper.
Speaker 2:It is a really interesting one because we hear a lot about coercive control outside of work, but we have been hearing a lot about micromanaging people, not maybe giving people the right communication, how giving them the heads up, giving them the right expectation setting and position and power is systemic I can never say that word Systematically, there we go, I got it out dominates or intimidates people to maintain that control. So you know, we've heard a couple of people that have said you know, I think my boss is a control freak. And whilst they're saying it in jest, you actually go. Maybe they are and then, when you question them a little bit more, you can see that maybe the signs of coercive control in the workplace are very subtly there, but people haven't. They just feel it's not right.
Speaker 2:So to talk about it, I think, and just bring out some of that what are the characteristics, what are the red flags around leaders, how do they behave, what do they do? It just might make you go oh, now that makes perfect sense and I can now know what to do about it. So it's a real. It's one of those topics I find people don't often like to talk about it, but it's present and you know most people, as we know, Lord, don't they? They leave, they leave a job, but they're not leaving the job, they're leaving the boss, and that can be really hard.
Speaker 1:I mean one of the things that brings us great joy when we sort of chat with people who said, oh, I listened to that episode and it really helped me feel normal, reassured, comforted. Turns out it's not just me that has a challenge with this. Actually, there are other people as well and it can just then means you can carry yourself a bit lighter. I'm also always very conscious that there's you know, it's not just bosses that can turn a bit difficult. So to what extent is just the general presence of coercive control from a colleague point of view, so you don't have to be someone's boss to be able to kind of have these control issues with someone? To what extent have you heard stories of where it might be two peers that are working alongside each other, and yeah. So tell us a bit more about that so we can have a bit of a general approach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think also there's a bit around isolating somebody out of any decisions, so they're not part of the team. So even though the colleague, their peer, has maybe called a meeting or had a conversation about something that's going on, they haven't necessarily included that person or they've made them feel intimidated. Or sometimes you can go, they might, you might hear them call them out on something. No, I didn't say that, you know. And then this person said yeah, but you did. No, I didn't say that. And then it feels like, well, which one of you is is telling the truth or not? So again, it can be, it can show up like that way. So the other person starts to doubt themselves and go no, I'm sure we had that conversation about this and the you know the other person is going no, we definitely didn't.
Speaker 2:You know, I would have remembered, and that that part can be really sticky to navigate because it normally gets brought up in a group, a meeting. It's very rarely done one-on-one. So the other person goes no, I did do that, I did what you asked or we were working together on it. But so the other person feels a bit silly because it's normally brought up in a group where people they can't necessarily argue. It's a bit like he said. She said then, and it's a bit, yeah, it's a bit petty, so it gets just oh well, maybe I was wrong, yeah, and then it gets moved on. But that might happen again and again and that person might have fear around it or feel intimidated by that individual or doesn't know how to address that coercive control. That's been going on Very subtle, very subtle, but it's there.
Speaker 1:One of the really good sessions we had today was talking about you know what makes a high performing team and to what extent trust is the sort of the pyramid you know. If there's a pyramid of. You know, if you've got trust, people are prepared to then challenge and innovate because they're fully committed to the results, because they're fully in, and then you've just got a team that is only there to do what he wants to do, rather than kind of any infighting or anything sort of like that. So we then looked at a list of all right, what for you, are some trust makers and some trust breakers. So I love that exercise from you to be able to get that stuff out.
Speaker 1:What's interesting when you look at trust breakers is you know I'm sure you've seen it countless times as well Things like doing what you say you're going to do, not calling people out in front of others. So you look at this list and you think, all right, well, is that just everybody else, or are there some times where we might accidentally do that? So I love the stat about how, apparently, 86% of people think they're an above average driver. It's them lot out there that are the ones that are bad.
Speaker 1:But statistically you can't have 86% of people who think that they're above average because it just doesn't work. So at some point you might be the driver that forgot to say thank you because you were busy dealing with something else and then suddenly you're one of those bad drivers. That's sort of really rude. So to what extent does sometimes coercively controlling behaviour might be unintentional? It's a bit of a blind spot. So that sort of mirror moment, almost just doing a mirror check, rather than it being a bit of a blind spot, so that sort of mirror moment, almost just doing a mirror check, rather than it being a sort of a species of a certain type of person that is coercively controlling what might be some things that you've seen where perfectly rational people have started acting out stuff like this, and it's an awareness check for us all.
Speaker 2:It is. I think that's such a good point actually, Laura, Because until we went on our driver speed awareness courses, we thought we were average, right it's them lot over there who aren't adhering to the limit I don't speed, but yeah remember that.
Speaker 1:Do you realise the variable speed limit actually was a legal limit?
Speaker 2:Okay, but going back to your point, I think it's there because they could have been creating this culture of fear and things like well, it's just the way things are around here. You might hear people say stuff like that and they might go yeah, well, it's no point talking about it because HR always get involved, so it's always the blame, and people don't necessarily recognize them saying that same thing Well, it's just the way it is. That's how it is around here. If you want anything done, you have to go and see so-and-so or so-and-so yeah, go and raise that with HR. And it's that pattern of behavior, communication style that you hear all the time. So they might not have that awareness that the impact they can have on people is fear. So they put the fear into people about oh no, you don't want to go to HR if you've got to raise a complaint, they don't do anything anyway. And then they might say it to someone else and say it to someone else. So then it's like oh yeah, maybe I won't. So it's really interesting that people do it out of consciousness sometimes, but it's just those scripts, they've got used to it, so people avoid saying anything or taking it further. So, yeah, again, it's very subtle and those people that say don't recognize it within themselves at all and it's only when somebody might raise it or they get offensive about it or they can say that's not me, what do you mean? It's definitely a blind spot for some people because that's the way they've always behaved and always created and no one's called them on it. It is so. I say it's underground, that's my word, that's not how it is, but it's just very subtle and you don't. You sort of doubt yourself and think maybe that's me, have I got that wrong? So what happens is if you're doubting yourself about something, then potentially there is some coercive control going on by either a colleague or your superior or team leader, whatever. But it's when you start doubting yourself, that's when it's a bit of a warning sign to check that out with someone and go. Is it me or am I? Am I going mad or what? How is it around here? Is it right that we can't go and speak to somebody else and somebody might say, oh god, where'd you get that from, you know? So it's really interesting that if we're curious about our feeling, something feels off, then check that feeling out as a way of overcoming that really.
Speaker 2:But the micromanagement is the interesting one, but withholding information is also a big, big red flag as well for people, because the language people use around it, the way that people are behaving, the way that they're not bringing you in like that, gaslighting you oh, I'm sure I sent it to you. No, you didn't. And go yeah, I'm sure I did. And you're doubting all of the time whether they did or didn't. And you're, you may be new into an organization where you feel like you can't challenge that properly yet, but I would say people are very smart at this coercive control, this manipulation, maybe gaslighting, and it's never them. It never them. It's always you are the one that's caused it, or, yeah, you must be mad. What makes you think that? So you go? Oh, okay, maybe it's me.
Speaker 1:What I think is really interesting just listening to you sort of say those terms gaslighting, coercive control and the manipulation stuff. Of course we see this on reality TV programs, and reality TV programs love them or hate them, there are millions upon millions of people who find it interesting to watch these dramas kind of play out, and I guess you know it's using that entertainment to then almost kind of empower yourself with. Well, we might not be talking about, you know, some kind of romantic sort of scenario, but actually in a professional scenario where there's some behavior that, as you said, it might be really subtle, but there's just something that's left a bit of an edge and I think, sometimes understanding the origins of these terms. So am I right in thinking gaslighting? That comes from the Victorian play Gaslight, where the husband made the wife feel like she was going mad by changing things and basically unseating her power, to then just become so wracked with paranoia and doubt that it then kind of sort of ruined her.
Speaker 2:So I'm thinking that's where the phrase gaslight came from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's my understanding of where it came from as well. And it's as you say, it's very subtle and that person makes you think that you're the one that's just losing it and you go no, I'm sure. And if you're in a position of either lack of confidence or you might be in a position of vulnerability, or you might find that maybe you've lost your job and your confidence is low because of redundancy, and so you're, you really got a level of self-doubt maybe going on anyway, and if somebody then adds to that by, you know, if you're like saying, well, yeah, no, I definitely told you that, did you? Or I'm sure you left it over there and they've moved it, and it's very subtle, and you start doubting, and I think that's the thing we don't always recognize the early warning signs around it and whether we can call it or not, because that people go, what are you talking about? You know, what do you think? Do you think I would do that to you? You know you can hear it coming out. And if they've either increased your workload as well.
Speaker 2:So if you are in work and say somebody is, how can you have that conversation with diplomacy, where you know it's how you approach it with the eye. You know I've noticed my workload has increased significantly compared to others. And could we discuss how teams are assigned work, because that will make me feel like it's fair, so that could be something. Or when my work is closely monitored or you're checking everything about it beyond what is expected, I feel it impacts on my confidence. So can we discuss a way to build some mutual trust? So it's calling it in a diplomatic way rather than going what are you on about? You like controlling everything or you're ruining my job. You know, don't you trust me? This doesn't feel fair, so it's. I is holding that direct but very respectful language around it. It's quite. You have to be brave to step into that space, but you have to do it.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, as we said, most people will leave the job because of someone, not because of the job. And that's where it's so hard really to I suppose, to identify that there is coercive control going on in the workplace because not everybody sticks around to explore it, whereas I, statements can make a big difference. I feel uncomfortable. No one can take away how you feel, but it's really difficult sometimes because they will play a game with you and I know we talk about game playing and bring you into the drama triangle.
Speaker 2:So we always say if you're not sure something doesn't feel right, either talk to someone else, keep records of the incidents and so you're not going mad, if you like, and just dates and conversations you've had, because ideally, if it's really impacting on you, you've got to be able to produce some form of evidence, which is really sad to say.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I could be completely wrong, but this is what's been happening and somebody will say to you wow, that's not normal or whatever normal might be. But I think you need to know when it's the right time to step away from stuff if it's not helping your mental mind, health as well, your wellbeing, self-care is you know, because if you're going home and ruminating about it and confidence is low and you're feeling undervalued and unworthy and lacking in confidence and self-belief, then that's not good for you physically, mentally, emotionally. So, recognizing that maybe things won't change at work. So you have a choice to stay or go. But you also have a choice to maybe raise it if you feel that and getting people to help and support you can be a really good way of exploring it in a little bit more detail. Really.
Speaker 1:I think what else is a way to kind of use some of these difficult situations, challenges we might have had, is to sort of make it a commitment to yourself never again. So if you found yourself sort of falling into a pattern and you think, all right, well, I'm listening to these great ways to have conversations, but it's been like 13 years now that it's been, that you know when is the part to have that conversation and you know if at some point there's a choice where you're going to be in a new scenario, it's then spotting that red flag quickly and just making a commitment to yourself. You know, I recognise that there are some patterns that potentially could be familiar ones that I fall back into, but not this time. I'm going to spot it. Yeah, I'm going to have that diplomatic way to approach into it to then be able to make it a healthier relationship. Yeah, when I listen to you sort of talking, you know, I know we're all interested in how do you create psychological safety.
Speaker 1:Yes, in the workplace Now that's become quite a buzzword sort of recently. Yes, in the workplace Now that's become quite a buzzword sort of recently. And you know I've found the whole world of health and safety just the most inspiring space to be in. Because what is more important than making sure that there is incident and accident prevention and bad things sort of kind of happening? And in order to have a safe cycle, you know, in order to have a safe workplace you've got to have an environment that feels just yes. So if I speak up and I blow the whistle, I can do so without fear of retribution or punishment. So it might be that you don't have a safety critical role, but you have a role where actually it's really important that everyone feels safe to speak up. So, from your coach perspective and from what you're picking up, what is this idea of having a psychologically safe workplace and how does that link to coercive control and just to sort of join the dots up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. Oh my God, Laura. It's so complex as well, isn't it? Because, as you said, from a health and safety point of view, you know what's right and wrong. Right, you either wear a hard hat or you don't, and then there's consequences if you don't. But from this psychological safety, it's really interesting to see that you know. How do we ensure that you know? We know that, if you like, our followers, if you like, we need to know what they need in order to feel safe at work psychologically safe and they are based on hope, trust, compassion and stability. So, when we're thinking about knowing ourselves, knowing them, what do they like? How do they do it? They need to be clear on how they provide that environment that enables people to feel safe, psychologically safe at work. And I did some work with one of our clients about this and we did some research around it, and I cannot remember where I got this, but I will find it and let you know, because it's not my stuff. It was something we picked up and they said there are four quadrants of psychological safety in the workplace there's collaborator safety, inclusion safety, challenger safety and learner safety.
Speaker 2:And when you think about especially the collaborator safety could be, how do we engage in an unconstrained way? How do we interact with our colleagues? What's our behaviors? And if you think about you know if we're micromanaging or we are challenging. We're in an unconstrained way. How do we interact with our colleagues? What's our behaviours? And if you think about you know if we're micromanaging or we are challenging. We're not enabling people to challenge ideas without fear of retribution. So there might be some fear-based control already present. So therefore, that's not a psychologically safe place to be. So, therefore, to create that psychological safety of open communication can make a huge difference. Maintaining open dialogue is fostering constructive debate, enabling people to say what they want to say in a safe space without judgment. So that collaborator safety plays really well against that coercive control.
Speaker 2:One because it's all down to communication and, as you mentioned earlier, that one about trust builders and trust breakers. It's that. How do we move from, I suppose, the power and control to trust and empowerment, and that has to have some form of inclusion within that. So you know, people know that they're valued and they're treated fairly and consistently. They feel that their experience matters and their ideas are listened to and they include others, regardless of their title or position, and that is interesting.
Speaker 2:We did a workshop today, laure, with one of our other people and we got them to have. They had three main questions, concepts that they were exploring. So the three leads took the conversation and then, randomly, we just mixed the group up. So there was all sorts of you know the director to the you know admin clerk to the person that is the booker. All of that was really mixed, but what they did was they created that inclusion safety space, so psychologically safe, from an inclusion where everybody's ideas were heard. There was no hierarchy.
Speaker 2:In that moment, the difference you could feel, the energy was incredible and they all went. Oh my God, that's one of the best conversations we've ever had. But because we created a psychologically safe environment for them to feel like they mattered and they could be included in it, so that was like really cool. Really cool to watch it and and to I suppose subconsciously did not connect it to that, but now we're talking about it I went. Oh yeah, we did that without thinking. So the safety space was created for them to talk and therefore they felt trusted and they therefore felt empowered. So the shift was moving towards them rather than them having to ask permission or can't make a decision because they have to run it past their team leader or their boss and everything else, so that's a really important one around it.
Speaker 1:This isn't just about avoiding being coercively controlling, because it stops bad things happening. No, what this also enables is it enables all of that untapped opportunity, so that ability to create a psychologically safe place where people felt safe to be able to actually say well, actually, in my experience, this is what our clients are really enjoying. So how about if we did X or Y?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then suddenly you've got a whole load of insight that might have just sat there silently, kind of someone sitting on it, because they don't feel safe to be able to speak up. And what's interesting to join the dots up, debs, is I'm having some interesting conversations with people that work in the quality space in a certain industry and one of the big calls to action that they're looking to shift in is involve us sooner in the design process, not just because you have to, and it's sort of a begrudging requirement, because if you involve us sooner at the design stage you'll be able to make more money, have less errors at the end stage.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's a little bit like the safety teams have sort of battled for the last 30 years of get us involved at the design stage rather than waiting for accidents to happen and then we make patches after.
Speaker 1:Get us in right at the start and we'll be able to collaborate and to be able to challenge some things that might look like it makes us money but actually it might not work or it might not be safe. But involvement earlier on in the process, whereas if it feels like, oh well, they just do that over there and then we just inherit all of this stuff that we then just have to sort of make, do and move. But from a win point of view, I guess the win here is create an environment where people feel safe to speak up, and what potential could you untap? And if you're in an industry or profession that is currently feeling a bit embattered at the moment, then that even more is a call to action, of reach out and connect and work with each other, because there might be someone over there who's got a fantastic idea that could really make the difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely Laura, and I think if we can create that inclusive inclusion safety, if you like, and then the learner safety, so it's okay to ask questions, it's okay to experiment with new ways of doing and working, learning from mistakes and creating new opportunities. I think that transparency piece around normalizing feedback, even upwards, sideways, downwards, whatever, so it's not just being done to. So normalizing feedback and we always say, don't we, laura? Whenever we mentioned the F word, people go please don't say I'm going to give you some feedback, because everybody goes onto the defensive and waiting for the rubbish to come your way. So we make a bit of a joke out of the F word.
Speaker 2:But it should just be normal conversation and if you've created that psychologically safe space where it can happen, then people will feel trusted and there will be the sense of safety to hold those open conversations and hierarchies get left at the door and it's a safe space meeting, which is why we always create a working together agreement in any team environment that we set up right, lord, because we know that we have to encourage that safe space and we don't always know the people when we first walk into the room and they've got to feel that we've have done that and that is massive when it comes to creating the right culture of transparency and that psychologically inclusion, challenger safety and so learner safety, collaborator safety, by setting the right working agreement.
Speaker 1:And I think what's really interesting, when you just look very practically, is just a tiny bit of disclosure, a 20 second little bit of intro as to why it's really important for you this topic of X. Then people understand it and then they know okay, it's not that you've got a problem with me, it's just you're really passionate about this and so that's why you're saying you know I might be asking some challenging questions, yeah. So a little bit of sort of disclosing your context behind it, yeah, or a bit of an explainer, and then, likewise then to be able to sort of express that and whether you're an introvert, an extrovert.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This isn't about dominating airspace, but it's just a little bit of insight so people understand.
Speaker 1:I see that surface behavior and I understand what sits beneath the iceberg. So now I don't have to worry over the weekend thinking that my card is marked because of a comment you said to me on the Friday catch up. You said that comment on the Friday catch up because I know this is a really important project for you, so I can rest easier over the weekend because I know that slightly snippy remark was just you being passionate about that project, not having a problem with me, and so that little bit of an explainer can just then mean from a communication point of view, so many people over the years have said you know, the problem is our business or our organisation doesn't communicate. And then they say we're inundated with emails.
Speaker 1:So, it's not about volume of communication. I think we've got that licked.
Speaker 2:There's enough email going around.
Speaker 1:It's actually, I think, what people are understanding is help me understand the nuances behind it so I can read into what you're saying, so I can know what I need to focus on and what's in and out or out of my control.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my God, a hundred percent. I'm with you, laura, because I think you know, healthy workplaces thrive on trust, not fear, and the way we can communicate that is down to us. Our communication is everything, because you know we shouldn't be working in a place where trust and respect and empowerment and autonomy to some extent thrive, because that means that you know we can help with small changes. You know, and small actions can create big changes in a culture and an environment if we want to. So you know it's making sure that we can, I suppose, have that healthy workplace. It's making sure that.
Speaker 2:Are we in a place where it's coercively controlled? Have I witnessed that in my previous workplace or in my current one? And then, what small steps can I take to either push back or speak up or foster a sense of change as to how we work around here and reset the working environment or the perceived control that's going on? And I think, also as a responsibility as a leader and a manager, that it's your responsibility to prevent those behaviors, I think, from creeping in, because that's not great, and I think the more we talk about it and get recognized by it, we should be guiding, not controlling, and providing that ongoing training around emotional intelligence and ethical management and all of that stuff. So how we can train people to work in a I suppose, foster a transparent and psychologically safe workspace. Yeah, I think that has to come from the top as well, but we also can influence it from whatever position we're in, by how we show up, never underestimate the impact you can have in a room.
Speaker 1:And yeah, and just just how you know, just other people have been able to watch. Oh, actually I really admire the way that they asked that question there, because we were all thinking it, but actually they asked that question and actually that that switched the game around, you know, that kind of that kind of shifted the energy a bit. So, debs, a lot of this stuff is kind of looking inward and being quite reflective. What would be a practical action that you think would be a good one to focus on for anyone for whom is listening and they're thinking yeah, actually I can hear a bit about what they're saying and I can see some of that stuff here. What would be a call to action?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's such a good one. I think, yeah, what am I thinking? What would be? My call to action would be to know don't face it alone. If you feel that something's not quite right, then find your trusted ally, find a source, speak to somebody else to check in.
Speaker 2:I might have got this completely wrong, but this is what I'm feeling. I might go, oh, no, you're right. Yeah, you're right. Oh, that's exactly that's how it is around here. And then we have a choice. So I think, yeah, check it out first, because if you talk to your friends, they're going to tell you get out. That's not a place to be, but it might be that subtle shifting that gives you that opportunity to go. No, I am going to have a conversation about it and step into that, because I actually love what I'm doing and I love the people. It's just maybe one person. So, yeah, checking it out, sussing out what you can do, speaking to other people, maybe having a bit of a plan for a script and a conversation going, but don't let it fester, because that's not healthy.
Speaker 1:Don't not call it out, you know, is what I would say, and I think sometimes that sense of relief when you think, oh, I'm not the only one, so my share, the secret would be if you've got a friend or a colleague who you know, this is a bit of a familiar topic, you know. Our goal in all of this is to sort of help support us in this ever evolving world of work, and it's been a pretty full on first five years in this decade, and I'm sure there's more joys to come, and sometimes change and uncertainty can impact even the nicest people.
Speaker 1:In some ways that means we have some blind spots. You know we all intend to drive well, but there'll be some times where your eyes off the ball and you might have forgotten to say thank you. And so, yeah, if the general intention is we work well with each other, just sometimes it can misfire. So get someone to listen to this and just give some handy hints, for you're not alone. There are some practical things you can do. It doesn't mean it's easy. It sounds so simple when you sort of think about this stuff, but just kind of gearing yourself up to do something to make it better, because if you're stuck in traffic, you're part of traffic. If you're there in a culture and it's feeling all a bit icky, then you're part of that culture and you could start making a difference. So I think that would be my share of the secret.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I love that. Yeah, it's such a broad topic, laura, we could talk about it, and I know we're going to get one of our previous guests to come back and talk about this in another later episode because it is so vast and it covers so many different aspects of it. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to that as well, but it's been a great month of talking about time too, hasn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really has, and of course, what this means is we've got a new topic and our next four-part focus is looking at book review yes, we did this a little while ago, didn't we? With some of our other books. Yeah, we did, we, we got good people going.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, it was just I didn't realise that they went out and read the book or just got there what they needed from it to understand it. So, yeah, we thought we'd bring it back, didn't we, laure?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did so for all you people who like the idea of reading a book you just don't have time to. Then we've done the hard work for you, we've scoured through them and then we're going to just kind of give a bit of a light touch on each of those four books in the pursuit of just increasing our level of continuing professional development and being able to open up even more alternatives and choices when you're looking at some of the opportunities and challenges ahead. So, devs, have a wonderful week.
Speaker 1:You too, laura, have a good rest of a workshop yes, thank you, and I hope you're not going to send me any of those snidey comments where you BCC all the team in as you go about your coercively controlling little ways, my coercively controlling little ways of going.
Speaker 2:Hmm, am I being disrespectful and not transparent? Yes, I'm just going to drop it in there, thompson are you joining us on this meeting. Yeah, come on. Sorry, mrs Green. Where are you, rather than just bloody turn up?
Speaker 1:I love it. Oh my God, it's a good one to talk about, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Because we just do it and don't realise sometimes the impact that it can have, especially if someone's not in a great place. So, yeah, we'll talk more about this topic because it's a hot one.
Speaker 1:It is Right, debs. Well, have a fantastic week.
Speaker 2:Yes, you too, lots of love, love you.
Speaker 1:Bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact, at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know. Thank you, work.