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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
227. Book Club - Trauma Informed Coaching - Flags for Everyday Conversations
In this second in our 4-part series the books that have made an impact on us, we explore The Trauma Informed Coach written by Joanna Harper.
What happens when someone shares their trauma with you at work? Do you freeze, try to fix it, or change the subject? We unpack the delicate art of navigating difficult conversations with compassion and boundaries.
Trauma doesn't always look like what we expect. From poorly delivered feedback to public embarrassment, even seemingly small workplace incidents can create lasting limiting beliefs that hold people back from promotions, new challenges, and fulfilling careers. This episode offers practical guidance for creating safe spaces where people can share without judgment, while maintaining appropriate boundaries when you're not a therapist.
Discover powerful questions that shift focus from past trauma to future growth: "What strengths did you develop from that experience?" and "Is that belief true for you now?" Learn simple grounding techniques for moments when someone becomes distressed, and explore the belief shift model for transforming limiting beliefs into empowering ones.
The transformative potential of addressing trauma properly is immense. Debs shares stories of clients who've moved countries, built houses, launched charities, and found dream careers after breaking free from trauma-based limitations. As she powerfully notes, "your trauma has shaped who you are today, but it's not holding you there."
Whether you're a coach, leader, or colleague, these trauma-informed approaches create workplaces where people feel safe to share and empowered to grow. Remember: the past is for reference, not for residence. What could become possible when you or someone you know breaks free from limiting beliefs rooted in past experiences?
Secrets from a coach thrive and maximize your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with debbie green of wishfish and laura thompson, stavely of phenomenal training Debs.
Speaker 2:Law you all right? Yeah, I'm good. How's your scary smart?
Speaker 1:going. Oh, I was buzzing after last week's episode. It was good. Yeah, the AI is now turned 18 and, as it enters into his adulthood, what have we equipped these AIs? It might be, you know, seemingly so innocent to be sharing with ChatGPT all my darkest, most negative oriented questions, but actually all of that goes somewhere. And, yeah, we've had some good feedback from people who've listened to that as well, and that was based on Mo Gordat's book Scary Smart.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And as we are now in our second episode as part of our four-part focus, we are opening up a book club, and this is designed for all those people out there who would love to have time to read books or to listen to books, but life is just a bit quick. So, in the pursuit of easy listening, continuing professional development and this week, debs, this is your book choice. So tell us about this one and what attracted it to you. This is your book choice.
Speaker 2:So tell us about this one and what attracted it to you. Yeah, this is the Trauma-Informed Coach by Joanna Harper, and I've always been fascinated at the fact that as a coach, you're there to understand somebody from how they arrived with you at that moment in time, with their whole story coming, you know, is there, and the idea behind it is that you know, we then carry that forward, so we understand it, to move somebody forward into their future. On the other hand, I always got to say but counsellors, counselling, will always look backwards as to what caused that. So, whereas unless you're a coach counsellor I'm not, I'm a pure coach it will be interesting because some of that historic stuff, experiences does play out in today's world and as a coach and even as a manager of somebody that you might be in a one-to-one conversation with, that might come up. So knowing what and how to maybe deal with it in a safe way, because we're not there to fix it, unless you are a counsellor and you have been psychotherapist and all of that, then great crack on. But if you're not being aware that people can bring stuff into a conversation which is trauma-based and it's really difficult sometimes to navigate our way through it. So this book really floated my boat. Probably about a year ago now I think I got this because it can help support people where their progress may be hindered by something that has happened in their past or a past trauma that they might still be playing out. And Joanna's book will give you sort of five models, methods, if you like, of working your way through them.
Speaker 2:So it's you know, it's been really interesting to see how it's coming out in conversations that we have with people, and I think as decent human beings we need to have an awareness of that. How do we handle that? What do we do if somebody is really distressed or something has happened that's triggered something from their past and they've been privy to it, and then what do they do with that information? And if they're coming to you as their manager or leader or as their one-to-one and you're going oh my God, I'm not there to fix it, which you're not, but it's knowing what to do and how to signpost them on to other areas if you feel that's appropriate. But you don't always know that until you suddenly are in that conversation.
Speaker 2:So it's having an awareness of what could happen and what we can do to navigate our way through it and especially, a lot of people will come up against other people's limiting beliefs about themselves. So what types of questions can we ask to enable someone to maybe think differently and overcome those limiting beliefs that they might have about how good they are, what strengths they bring, if they have imposter syndrome? All of that will be based from a trauma, because we're questioning who we are, and that does come up in the present, but it's knowing what we do if it does come up. So I loved it. I loved the book. It was so practical. I just thought, oh, this would be a good one. And obviously, as coaches out there, having this awareness of trauma, don't shy away from it, but know where you work with it, and I think that's what's really important.
Speaker 1:What consequences could there be if a well-intentioned colleague is sitting there in a restroom with another colleague who just sort of mentioned something, maybe from back in the past? I guess this isn't about scaring people off from being compassionate in that moment, but just what consequences are there if someone just goes right into kind of questioning mode and finding out all sorts of info about it. So just what would the sort of your little red light be? Just to where's that balance of compassion and being a good colleague and also not meddling around in stuff that actually could make things worse?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a great question because it does happen and we all find ourselves there and I think it's that using a calm acknowledgement, first of all calm oh, my goodness, okay is remembering it's not about you in that moment, it's about that individual. So, you know, open-ended questions rather than pushing for answers. You know, if you're offering that compassion and that listening without judgment or rushing to fix the emotion, because sometimes that person just wants to get it out, if you'll happen to be in that privileged position to do it, it's like acknowledging their experience. You know, I always say wow, that sounds like it was such a difficult or really difficult for you. Thank you for trusting me with that. And then normally I would, you know, ask a question around, okay, what would question around? Okay, what would you like to do next? I'm happy to explore it with you or not, or I can signpost you to somebody who might help, if that's what you want.
Speaker 2:But just initially. It's letting them feel that they don't have to share it if they don't want to. But all we ask people to do is hold the space for them and watch out for any signs of distress, because as people start talking, you can feel maybe anxiety or panic, or their breathing changes, so we can just be again really gentle with people to say, you know, just take a deep breath with me, look me in the eyes yeah, we see it all the time. Can you feel your feet on the ground? We try and ping proper back to sensation. So, you know, just just for a moment, just take a breath, you know, and just calm, let's breathe together, let can you feel your feet on the ground, can you feel what you're holding or where you're sitting? And it's it's something we would always ask you what's something in your environment that feels safe for you right now? And it's always in that now moment where we actually will hold that space for them and say, look, you can, if you want to continue, I'm here to listen. If you don't, it's up to you. So it's all about giving that individual choices as to what they choose to do next with that.
Speaker 2:And I think that's an also an interesting space to be because as coaches, we have supervisors. So if there is a particular difficult conversation we've had or something that has triggered something within us or we're carrying around those that conversation, it's where, do you know? We can go to our coach supervisor and explore it, understand it for ourselves, but not everybody has that option. So it's thinking about the impact it has on you as well, but keeping it to a future focus, strength, making sure the conversation is said is with open questions, and it's about helping that individual, if you like, for long-term transformation, if you like, rather than temporary motivation, I'd be fine. I'm sure you know that's the last thing sometimes people want to hear, because those beliefs that somebody has don't change overnight and the fact they trusted you with themselves credit to you.
Speaker 2:So it's how do you make it clear what the steps are that you're going to go through, working with them around it? I'm happy to support you with this If you are. If you're not, don't. Or, as I say, signpost them on to a professional if you feel that would be helpful, but again, giving them that emotional safety, that it's okay. And if they want to talk about it, but then you don't hang on to that either.
Speaker 2:It's a fine line, because we do have to face difficult conversations as coaches, but also as managers and who aren't coaches necessarily because if they have a trusting relationship with their team member, they become a little bit more vulnerable and share some more stuff, and I've known managers that just don't know what to do with that information. So therefore back off or say what can I do to help you? And that may not be what they want. It might be just explaining, creating the boundary. It must be really difficult for you. I really appreciate you sharing it with me. You know what would you want to do with that now and let them decide, not you decide for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love, debs, how you transfer. This isn't just sort of you know, we know a lot of our listeners are exploring being a coach and, you know, on their own sort of coaching journey. But actually for anyone and everyone, you know, no matter what your sort of role at the moment or whether you're in work or out of work, those conversations that we have with people, you know, you never know what someone might sort of open up in that moment. The question I wanted to ask you was is to what extent from a sort of trauma point of view? So for many years I've known the word traumatic and I probably used it in a lighthearted way, by without having any inkling as to what actually lays beneath that word trauma. How come trauma has become such a common word that's used? So how relevant is this topic that Joanna was writing about, about a trauma-informed coach? But how much, yeah, how relevant is that right here, right now in society, this awareness of what trauma is and how it shows itself?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's such a great question, laura. I think because we are genuinely talking about it more and people are opening up and explaining things, what's happened in their lives, and trying to help and support others who that they're not alone if they're going through it. So, a lot more obviously, clubs you know, when we were talking to tim marsh last month, you know he mentioned about andy's man club. You know that has that hasn't been there forever. That's a space where people can come and share what's happened to them and how. I know that they're safe in that. So I think the more awareness that's out there, I think the more people are talking about it. You see a lot of people in the media who are quite happy to share their vulnerabilities around what they've gone through. So it feels like, therefore, you're not alone. So it's more accessible to us to talk about it than it ever was before it, than it ever was before.
Speaker 2:And whilst that's on a good side, again, if you're the person is on the listening to that it can be really difficult sometimes and you know, as coaches I know coaches that just will not go there. So the way they set up their session is very structured and contracted at the beginning in inverted commas. I'm very clear that I am a coach and I will help you. Take all the information you know about yourself up until this moment, take all the bits that you know are going to help for you and to move you forward to wherever you may want to be. I am not a therapist or a counsellor and therefore, if our conversation goes down that route, then I'm pleased to give my permission to pause us and see where you want to go with this, so that honesty and integrity right up front as a coach is so important, because if you go, oh, I might be able to help them, because our natural instinct is to help, right, but you might be unpicking something that you have no clue what the impact could be. And certainly when I've coached supervised people in the past and they brought this to me a lot of them have struggled then because they're carrying it with them and the idea is that at the end of each coaching session that collects, closed down, however you choose to do it, and therefore you're fresh for the next one.
Speaker 2:If something still sticks with you, my encouragement is always go and talk to your coach supervisor or talk to somebody else about your experience, because that will stay with you. That means it's had an impact on you somewhere and that's probably triggered something in yourself, so you need to unpack it as well. So yeah, because we could open a whole can of worms that we're not equipped to deal with and I think that's the kindest thing we can do to support people is that whoa I'm going to? You know I don't know what to do here. You know I've never had to deal with this before. I do want to support you. What do you need from me right now? Because I think it would be this or let's have a you know what open-ended questions. What do you need in this moment? What do you want to do about? That is what I've heard people say. So again, the choice is on that individual, not on us pushing them to something, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Debs, I know you and the rest of the team are very kind of humble about your qualifications and and all the education that's gone behind it. But but you know, I know our colleague, lex Alexis, in particular, gets really feisty about this. I mean, the thing about the world of learning and development and training and coaching is it's not licensed. Anyone can say I'm a trainer, I'm a workshop facilitator. Get all your team who are all traumatized by that event that happened, get them in a conference room, I'll sort them out. You know what I mean. You don't have to have any due diligence done on you. You could just rock up and you could create all sorts of havoc by asking questions in an unintentional way and unmindful way and just not having the experience.
Speaker 1:So I think what I can sort of tell that appealed to you, what I'm inferring that appealed to you about this book is actually, even for someone like yourself that's got years in the game of hearing all sorts of all types of people, actually, every now and then it's worth a bit of a wash and a brush up. You know, am I being intentional and working safely with people? Yes, because if you create that open environment where people feel safe to disclose. Well, they might disclose some stuff, and how do you deal with that in that moment? So I think that's sort of what I'm picking up is as part of that professional skill set. It might come from a good place, but actually if you've got an untrained, unqualified person starting to meddle around in all of these really dark spaces, then that could make things worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and I think and, as you said, lex always says around one in 400 PCC qualified or with the ICF accreditation. I know I am, I'm working towards my master's at the moment but, yeah, that's only one in 70 of us that would hold the MCC and I just think that's mad. I know there are other, like ILM and Oxford University, all of those other accredited programs, but when you stop and think about that, people can go on a weekend course and be calling themselves a coach and, as you say, people will come to you in blind faith because they just want help and you can intentionally, unintentionally, just cause more damage. So I think the more you, you learn, you study, you go on that you know nine month explode, you know a course of exposure cause. You have to know yourself as well and you know I I have had things happen where people have shared and it has made me triggered because of my own experiences, not that I shared them, but then unpacking them is really important because you know, as you said, we can reframe, help people, reframe the narrative around it and help understand what's going on for them and just recognize how we respond to emotional distress and, as we said, that being confident to.
Speaker 2:If someone is breathing a lot and anxious and excited, it's just helping them to breathe and calm back down a little bit and just focus them back in on the present moment can make a big difference. And asking you know maybe the odd question around you know, how have you managed to get through that experience? So you're focusing on that personal strength and growth of that individual, on that personal strength and growth of that individual. So what strengths did you develop as a result of that experience? So you're not going back over it, but you're asking them to share what strengths have they found because of that? What can they carry forward with them? Because that's going to help move them forward from it, not stay stuck in it.
Speaker 1:Wow, I mean, I just think again, the power of those, and those are such good questions that are purposely. You know, what have you taken from that and what have you learned from that? They sound so simple, but they're all targeted at reminding that person. Actually, I have you know, I'm empowered here. I've got some power. Yes, so, from a continuing professional development point of view this is our second one on book club. What stuck out for you that joanne harford put together as some models that you think, oh, I quite like, that one that might be useful to share, and, uh, you know whether it's a planned or unplanned moment of conversation you got with someone on your radar.
Speaker 1:Yes, what were a couple of your favorites that you think would be good to share and pass on?
Speaker 2:yeah, there was quite a few of them actually, which, if you read the book, you'll go ah, ah. But I think for me it was the shifting piece that we talk about the belief shift model, where it can help us identify what those limiting beliefs could be for somebody, and things like breaking and uncovering what that limiting belief is. So that's one I really like and I do use all the time so Asking if they have this limiting belief about themselves. What is a belief you hold that you feel is holding you back? Where do you think this comes from? So, again, you're asking questions of them.
Speaker 2:When did you first start believing? This is a great question, and then you can't fix it, but you can help that person move it forward with, like we always say, you know, is that true now? You know logical and helpful? We always ask about whether that thought is true, logical or helpful, and I always add on that so is that true now, you know? Is that, is that you know, helpful to you now? So, even though I'm not delving into what it was, I'm just asking them that question to move them into the present, to move them forward from it. Sometimes I might ask how would it help or what would happen if you no longer believe that. So again, it's always taking them past that into the now and the future piece. And then how is that serving you If you let go of this belief? What's the worst case scenario but what's the best case that serving you? You know, if you let go of this belief, you know what's the worst case scenario but what's the best case scenario for you.
Speaker 2:So again, I think anything around that can really help, the visualization of it can really help. So the aim is to break that emotional attachment to that limiting belief and open the space for new perspectives. And in her book she really gives some really good practical hints and tips as to how we can open up that space for somebody to understand it, but not sit in it, but also not refer back to it all the time. It's like take what you've learned, what is that that you've learned, so articulating that, and then what can you do to help?
Speaker 2:Now you know that, what will you do differently or how might you apply that now? What will you do differently or how might you apply that now? It gives a more, I suppose, a more balanced viewpoint of it, rather than horrendous, horrific, you know, all staying in the past. It's like, yes, that was horrific, and it's always about acknowledging that that must have been awful, not saying well, I'd been there because it's not about you, it's just acknowledging that, that that sounds like it was a traumatic time for you. You know so, and acknowledging that can make a big difference. So things like that little tricks, little tricks and tips like that can really help.
Speaker 1:I think that's brilliant In my mind as you go through those questions about is that helpful for you? Now I was thinking of all of the you must have countless examples, but I know, just in my everyday facilitator comings and goings, the amount of people with whom are holding themselves back from going for a promotion because they had some awfully delivered traumatic feedback that happened or something happened where they were called out publicly and they've just sort of shied away from that ever since. I mean, that's life changing If you can sit there with a coach and have that belief system shifted. You know, is that true for you now? Well, actually, that was, you know, 18 years ago, and I've had six more roles since then, you know, and just the power of those questions.
Speaker 2:And that's what trauma is right. It's traumatizing and I know people say it has to be something massive and has to be something big. But it doesn't, it can be. It's your trauma. You've lived it, you've felt it, you've experienced it. It doesn't, it can be. It's your trauma. You've lived it, you've felt it, you've experienced it. It doesn't, you know, and that's why, also, people don't talk about it, because it doesn't sound as worse as somebody else. Actually, it doesn't matter. You're still feeling that and have been trauma'd by it. Um, doesn't matter how big or small, it's still yours and you've got to be able to, you know, to work your way through it around it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so I suppose it's how we enable people to reframe some of that, so we create more of an empowering belief rather than a limiting belief. So, as you said, you know, when people don't go for promotion or they feel like, oh, I'm not, I'm not good enough to succeed, or I'm not good enough for this role, it's like you know, how can you reframe that into something that's more of an empowering belief. And you know, people come up with all sorts of things that go I am capable of success, I am constantly learning and growing. Oh, yeah, I am actually, and it's that realization because we flip the script and I always say flip your thinking, because if you think bad things, you can good things. It just might take a bit more longer, but if we can see, help people flip their thinking around it, yeah, I am good.
Speaker 2:I have got here for a reason, and that's the whole imposter syndrome thing, law. Because we had a workshop where somebody did say they had imposter syndrome, and she was head of finance or something very high-powered job, and I, okay, let's just put this into perspective, could I turn up and do your job tomorrow? And she looked at me and went no, I said it's okay. So what does that tell you about you? So, and she went oh, okay, then I've learned, I've studied, I've had 10 years experience, blah, blah. I said so are you an imposter or am I the imposter? So it was a really interesting exercise, just to hit home that we're not imposters. Yeah, so we're constantly learning and growing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just you might be doing it at lightning speed now, so the certificates on the wall haven't caught up. You know, I don't feel properly qualified for this. Well, you probably had to be sort of super adaptable. So what would be some encouragements or some food for thought? So, and if I could ask you sort of to tailor it to someone with whom isn't a coach, doesn't sort of consider themselves on for all of us in how we interact and be part of a good workplace culture?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's so cool. I think there's a couple of things to, I think, acknowledge where that person's been. It's their story, their experience, first of all, and, I think, asking that question to move them forward. So, like, what strengths did you develop as a result? You know, how did you overcome that? All of that can help them recognize what they can do, not what they can't do anymore. And then you know what's one thing you can do today bring them back to the present moment. That's going to help you tomorrow.
Speaker 2:So, again, getting them to commit to an action as to what they will do differently or more of. Because then that's where coaching can help, even though you're not a coach, because it's always about solution focused, action orientated, so it's not sitting and swimming in it, but you can prompt. What do you want to do about that? You know, if you were to do one thing that you know your younger self would be grateful for, what would that one thing be for you today? So it's again bringing them into the now and helping them to move it forward, so that you know personal growth and strength that they have got because they've overcome it in the past. So I think, yeah, things like that, being mindful of enabling them to have the space to move forward. So, and you can say what do you want to do with that?
Speaker 2:They might say nothing, I just wanted to tell you, and you go, okay, I can, I can do that. Or they might say nothing. I just wanted to tell you and you go, okay, I can do that. Or they might say I'm not quite sure. I think I might need help, and you go, okay, I can signpost you to help or those people. Because, remember, you can't fix it if you're not a trained counsellor or psychotherapist. So don't take it on yourself, because that would be my one thing. Create a space and then come up with an action to move that person forward.
Speaker 1:Know your role in it one thing create the space and then come up with an action to move that person forward, Know your role in it. And all of this is in the pursuit of so kind of sell us the dream. So if one human is kind of carrying this imprint with them, this trauma, and then they have a conversation and they're given that space to unlock it, just to unlock what the next steps is, not necessarily bring it in that conversation, Just sell us the dream, Debs. What have been some evidence that you've seen of people's ability to overcome this past?
Speaker 1:stuff and go on to be free. So just for anyone that's there going oh yeah, I've got a few bits and bobs that maybe are sort of holding me back a bit. Just sell us the dream about where, where people can take themselves when this stuff has maybe been unlocked and and dealt with oh my god, lord it, if I was to say it can take them wherever they want to go.
Speaker 2:I know that's a bit of a cliche but, for example, few people that I've worked with have completely transformed their lives because of it. They've trusted themselves and they've been into their next role, the role they've always wanted to do, and they have got it and they're going. Oh my God, I'm living on purpose. So it links in with what's important for them. I've had people move houses, move countries, build a new house out of nothing, going to change their careers completely because it doesn't fulfill them, because they have this unwavering belief in themselves and that their trauma has shaped who they are today. But it's not holding them there. It's taking that experience, that wisdom. We always talk about wisdom, right, and how do I take that forward for good for me and myself and maybe for others? And, yeah, people have set up charities which have been going for years. People have, as I say, built their own houses. They've changed jobs. They've done the job, given up a high powered job and gone for the job they really want. It's transformational, really is transformational. Love it.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Lovely, oh, devs, that just put the cherry on the top then. So, where you've been inspired by Joanna Harperanna um harper's book, the trauma informed coach, yeah, just reminding us, as the reason why these skills is is, you know, so brilliant in the in the first place, they might, you know, actually have that trauma dealt with in an appropriate, safe way to propel forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it doesn't define you from that point on no, absolutely, and that that would be my call to action. If you like, would would you know your past? Well, you always say this the past is for reference, not for residence, isn't it? You always say that in relation to the Panda Fox mindset, and I think that's what it is the past acts as a reference, not a residence. So, yeah, how do you take it forward and adapt and flex and learn and grow? Yeah, oh, lovely.
Speaker 1:Oh, Debs. Well, my share of the secret would be if you've got a friend you know is really interested in this stuff or for whom trauma is a relevant topic for them, get them to listen to this as a bit of a bigger, higher perspective, all in the pursuit of. You might love to have read this book, but life might not have given you the gap to be able to do that, just by this half hour bit of space, having this on in the background and having to think about what this means to you. Nice, so that would be my share, the secret. Get a friend who you know is interested in this, have a listen and then you can chat about it after. Yes, and so for our third book, Debs. Oh, I'll meet you in the library again for that one.
Speaker 2:I can't wait though.
Speaker 1:And that's where we're going to be looking at a book called Live Wired. Oh yes, and that's where? Do you remember I read it, debs right, and I phoned you up going oh my God, yes, I now know why we dream. Yes, you did, it blew my mind and from that point on once I knew I couldn't not know.
Speaker 2:And taking you through the highlights of David Eagleman's amazing book Lifewide.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I can't wait, because I have not read that yet, laura. So, yeah, looking forward to it. I'll join you in the library.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll do the reading for you. I'll just give you the book. It's all good. Oh, I love it, Thank you.
Speaker 1:Laura, I love that. Oh, thank you. Yeah, really enjoyed that Love you lots. Have a great week, love you. Thank you, bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work. You