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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
230. Timeless Leadership Skills - The Stoic Approach
Welcome to our new 4-part mini-series all about Inspirational Leadership. It can be so easy to judge leaders in an organisation as its easy to forget that leaders are humans too. As anyone who has recently moved into leadership, its not for the faint-hearted as we head towards 2030 - but this is the reason to lean in, not shy away from - taking the leadership reins.
In this first one we dive into ancient Stoic wisdom and modern insight (from Dolly Parton) to help leaders thrive during these transformational times. Rather than taking setbacks and challenges as personal failings, the Stoics believed that these are the realities of life and the reason why we need leaders in the first place. We explore 5 Stoic lessons for strong leadership: Control What You Can (focus on actions, not outcomes), Lead by Example (character over charisma), Embrace Adversity (obstacles are opportunities.), Practice Emotional Mastery (stay calm in chaos) and Serve a Greater Good (leadership is service).
An uplifting lesson for a leader who may be feeling a bit faded or jaded, and an inspiring one for those considering to move into leadership (in whatever form that takes - it could be organising a charity event or a birthday celebration). As Epictetus said over 2000 years ago: “It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.”
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, are you all right? How's it going? Yeah, I'm doing good. There's been lots of conversations with interesting people and, I think, lots of stuff that's relevant to what we're going to be covering on this episode about stoic lessons for leadership. I mean, you receive those corporation tax bills and you do have to dig deep.
Speaker 2:Debs, don't you Remain stoic? You certainly do, and you go.
Speaker 1:What the actual All part of the process, laura, all part of the process, all part of the process and whether it is dealing with unexpected bills, whether it is dealing with changes and new things on the horizon that may not be positioned as the easiest challenges, whether you're in work as a leader, whether you are aspiring to leadership, whether it's a big L or a little l, this is the four-part focus for you and, as ever, we aim to bring a bit of humour, a bit of lightness, because the last thing we need now is for leaders to feel fatigued, overwhelmed and sort of playing small, because this, in the final half of this decade, shape-shifting decade, if ever people needed strong, positive, visible leadership with a bit of energy, now's probably the time, isn't it, devs?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you're right. I think you know, especially as some people's year-end is as well and financial years happening in organisations, you can feel the tension rising and it's like let's just get through this month and then it'll be okay. And I just think, as you said, is it ever going to be whatever okay means, or is it just going to continually shift and transform and how we can make the best of it really, I think, which is so important and how we can make the best of it really, I think which is so important.
Speaker 1:So important, yeah, and the life-changing benefit that this introduction to Stoic philosophy for me had, and I'll mention it again. I bang on about this pretty much every three months, but Ryan Holiday's book the Obstacle Is the Way, which was recommended to me about eight, nine, ten years ago now, yeah, it must be.
Speaker 1:You mentioned it to us as well, didn't you? That book, yeah, I mean, it was life-changing and what it means is then you shift how you define yourself. So, rather than, oh, I'm someone who is continuously successful, which is so at the beck and call of all these external events, it's repositioning it as actually I'm someone who aims to be successful, but I can handle the challenges and that stoic approach of not always hooking your sense of identity and success on some things that actually might be flimsy and way out of your control. It's how you handle this stuff. Devs, do you remember we had the Spotify music playlist on that particularly energy requiring rollout that we did with all of those managers?
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, I do remember, yes, the songs requiring rollout that we did with all of those managers.
Speaker 1:I do remember, yes, the songs, yeah, so what actually? Because I think it also enables you to retain your sense of humour when you're dealing with challenging stuff. So we had nearly 500 managers that were on this big rollout and you know, between us and the team, we were all sort of running all these workshops. Anyway, at the end of each one we'd say what song would you like to have that we can play as the welcome music for tomorrow's team or the next team, and these song choices were just hilarious.
Speaker 1:So my favourite one was Kelly Clarkson's what Doesn't Kill you Makes you Stronger. We had Elton John I'm Still Standing and various others bits of music that really tap into that stoic approach. Yeah, it did. Yeah, what Doesn't Kill you Makes you Stronger.
Speaker 2:I thought it was brilliant that, because I think, when you look at that stoic approach yeah, it did. Yeah, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Yeah, I thought it was brilliant that, because I think, when you look at that stoic approach to leadership, I think they're not just focused on being leaders, are they? I think they're actually focused on being useful and wise and making sure that it isn't always about you, is it?
Speaker 2:It's always about the other people, and I think that's something we've always said is whether you're a leader with a small L or a big L. It's not about you, it's about what you create around you, and I know you talk about the Stoics and you use them as reference. You know, marcus Aurelius, you say that better than we do, because it's that ability to, as you said, to serve and to act and to guide and to nurture, and all of that wonderful stuff that makes people want to be led by you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's go back in time. So what were the Stoics? All right, well, let me read you out a quote, Debs, Go on. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint, you know? I mean if you could find yourself saying that you know good old youth of today. Now, the thing is that was nearly two and a half thousand years ago. Wow, Quoted to Hesiod in 700 BC.
Speaker 1:So sometimes there is something quite illuminating by looking back in time and actually just almost taking a bit of comfort and reassurance. There are things that the current generations are moaning about or finding a challenge and a struggle, but actually since the dawn of time, life as a human has been about overcoming challenge and struggle and doing what you can to stay afloat and focus on the good stuff. So the fact that you might be feeling a bit beleaguered by setback and challenge doesn't mean you're on a pathway to never being successful. Actually, that's part of being human. And the Stoic approach, the Stoic philosophy this was a whole philosophy of thinkers, For example, Aurelius, as you talked about, Aristotle, Plato, Epictetus, so all of these kind of big brains who were looking at. What does it mean? To be human and to endure suffering is almost like the thing that unites all sort of humans. So there we go. That's a chewy thought for the day.
Speaker 2:But I think actually, laura, I think that's really interesting that that quote you've read out. How often do we hear that in workshops, even today, about the them. And yeah, and what do they know? What do the Gen Z know? What do the millennials know? And it's like, wow, but that's quite reflective to go okay, this is just something that's part of human nature, right? So it's, and we see it, don't we?
Speaker 1:absolutely so. The Stoic philosophy and what then came from it which is why two and a half thousand years on it's still being referenced is it gives a handy guide, a set of principles to be able to look at how to lead life well. And what does that mean then, particularly if we apply it in the world of work and from the perspective of leadership? So should we have a look at maybe some key principles that we can be inspired from those writings two and a half thousand years ago, that what might help from a leadership perspective today?
Speaker 2:So go on, laura. What are they? Share your philosophies Well, not yours per se, but ones you do actually live by. I think actually, when you break them down, what are they? We should have Laura, aurelius or something, yeah.
Speaker 1:Laura Aurelius. So what would it be? Well, first off, not to have an ego.
Speaker 1:So that would be the stoic thing the moment you think you're all that. You're probably not all that and to sort of stay humble. But maybe if I just kind of go through five key principles and then what would be great is to get a kind of a how to practical aspect, so sort of bring it to life, into what that means in reality. So probably one of the first big principles is control what you can. So focus on actions, not outcomes, and the Marcus Aurelius quote that kind of links to this one is you have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength.
Speaker 1:If I give you an example of where I've seen some great stoic leadership in someone that I mentor recently.
Speaker 1:So we had our recent mentor catch up session a couple of days ago and there'd just been some shock redundancies that had just been announced as a result of an unexpected tax bill and sadly, five people needed to be served redundancy.
Speaker 1:How the manager that I mentor, what they did immediately was they took all her team to the pub at the end of that day and said right, let's sit through, chat it through, because she's had a new starter joining that very day, and for her to be able to sit there with her team of eight and say, okay, it is what it is, this is the reason that's led to it as a team, this is what we can focus on now to ensure that we are as set up for success as possible.
Speaker 1:So, rather than letting everyone just go home and have their individual worries and sort of concerns, you know, especially with someone that's on their first day at work, I just thought that was a great example of she couldn't control what news had just been put out there, but what she could control is her actions with her team right now. So she can't control the outcomes. It is what it is. Businesses need to make decisions like that, but she could focus on what she could do, which is stay close to my team and let's chat it through so they know they can trust me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, that's really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so where have you seen some of those things kind of play out and the value of that approach now in terms of focusing on the stuff that you can do something about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I've seen that play out a lot where people are, if you like, not going to waste energies on the things that they can't control, like you said, and the things that are actually outside of your power. I think you can maybe have some influence over having great conversations, with what's going on and understanding it, so you can communicate that out, obviously as wisely as you can. And I think it's really important that people I've seen do it well. They focus on the choices that they're going to make, how they're going to show up, how they're going to be their character in that moment. You know, as leaders, people look to them for role modeling, and if they see their leader crumbling under it, then they go oh my God, doom. So I think it's the way they conduct themselves very professionally.
Speaker 2:Still them. They're not robots, but they model, if you like, that calm and consistent approach with lots of clarity around the communication they're having, and I think that's what people can control when it's out of your control is you can control yourself and how you choose to show up, I think. So I've seen that happen and the impact has been incredible because people haven't run off and panicked. They've just listened and taken it on board and then the leader has been available to answer any questions and be there to, just, as I say, a presence. They haven't just gone underground, they've been vocal, they've been visible. I suppose, and for me that's what's really important, because you can control that.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's fascinating. So the second principle lead by example and this idea of character over charisma.
Speaker 1:So a true stone leader models discipline, integrity and resilience, rather than relying on authority or charm, and the Marcus Aurelius quote attributed to this waste no more time arguing what a good man should be be one. So it's that idea of leading by example and doing that. I mean. Debs, if we think back over the tens of years that we've all been doing what we've been doing, you can just see how there are some leaders with whom talk a good game when they're there in a live scenario on stage, but behind the scenes there's just not the you know, the trust that's being created because they act differently, maybe back of house or front of house.
Speaker 1:Do you remember that story I told you about a CEO on an award winner's trip? This is like way back in the day. They were on this award winner's trip and I wasn't even on there, but the story went around the organisation big time and everyone came back and this was before mobile phones, now all of this stuff. Basically, the fire alarm had gone off, the emergency alarm had gone off on this kind of yacht boat thing where they're on this kind of award winners cruise, and the CEO sort of leapt up, practically elbowed their way through the families and the children and the staff sat there on this kind of rescue boat. You know the side of the lifeboat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, and then sort of got out there so quickly without checking anyone else was all right that he hadn't realised that the emergency alarm had stopped. It'd be like a false alarm. But the optics of what that looked like our CEO has basically showed their character in that emergency scenario.
Speaker 2:They just basically stepped over everyone else to make sure they had a place on the lifeboat.
Speaker 1:I mean how much imagery could you suggest in that? And of course, that bit of gossip just went round like wildfire. It doesn't matter how charismatic or how polished that front of house presentation was in moments of truth and your character shows. That's what shows. You know, am I leading here? Am I ensuring that my team are all right? And that always stuck with me. And that's about 25 years old, that story, but a real visual. That's scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I suppose that's where they talk in the Stoic about ego being the enemy, isn't it? And what's the word they was used for that when they're looking at ego because you've got to leave for the common good, I think, is something else they say. But that ego being the enemy is going to be exactly that. His ego took over, like do you not know how important I am? You know I go first. It's like, oh my god. But the damage that would have done, yeah, because he didn't ask, I suppose, what's the right thing to do here. Just absolutely, car crashed in that moment, oh my God. And the fact you remember it, laura, it means it's embedded in that.
Speaker 1:It absolutely is, but basically because for the gossip and the sheer delight of no, that happened. I mean, it's just such a compelling story and you know who would want to run over hot coals for that leader after you've seen that behaviour.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you always say the phrase, and I think you're so right people don't leave jobs, they leave leaders. Yeah, they do and not what a leader said at an annual conference up on stage. It's those little moments in the corridor, in one-to-ones, the little kind of subtle thank yous or missed opportunities to say thank you. Those are the things that, where your character shows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so, and I think that's a bit where I always say you know, the minute it becomes all about you, then you've lost your position and you've lost the team, you've lost everything. And I think that it can cloud judgment as well. If you're running on ego and because they're making it all about themselves and taking the glory and and that you know that doesn't help people, it certainly doesn't help them, and I think that's the bit which is so important for me. And you see egos quite a lot around and you just I mean now in coaching, we can actually give some observational feedback. If we're working with a leader and all we hear is ego, ego, it's all about me, what about me, what about me? You can give them that feedback in that moment, because for me it's about doing the job right, with humility and wisdom, and I think that's what sets great leaders above others.
Speaker 1:So let's take this into practical world. Let's say you are working environment where there's a bit of newness going on and you've got a first coming together. Yeah, rather than worrying about what am I going to say to impress them, get over yourself. What is it these people need? Yeah, to feel reassured and to just get over yourself and into the group. It reduces your nerves, it maintains that idea of character over charisma and, at the end of the day, it's your character. That is which your leadership approach is going to be measured on, not whether you told the best jokes or whether you wowed them with the stories, because that veneer, you know, when you're working at a really fast pace, can slip quite easily as well. So, if that just helps, if you've got a big thing in your diary, whether you're a big L or a little L, the moment you start to think how do I look good in this? Get over yourself.
Speaker 1:The historic approach would be. It's not actually about you. No, it's about everyone else, it's about everyone else and taking that reassurance from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, I love that. So go on then. What's the other philosophies?
Speaker 1:Well, this is one of my absolute favourites, because the third principle is embrace adversity. And this is really where I sort of first got into this whole Stoic thing, because this is the basis of Ryan Holiday's first book the Obstacle is the Way. So the most successful organisations, the most successful teams, people, leaders, actively look for opportunities to be challenged and to seek adversity and their byline was the advantage of adversity. So let's say, for example, you're reeling from an unexpected tax bill, just using a real example here. Well, it might not be comfortable, but actually that nerve that's required to dig deep, hold your nerve. That's going to be a really useful skill for at some point in the future. The more you've practiced it, the more familiar and the more confident you become when dealing with future adversity.
Speaker 1:So if you think about exercise, watching someone do squats on the screen, it might be comfortable, but you're not putting your body through those adverse conditions.
Speaker 1:Putting your body through planned adverse conditions then mean when you're yanking books and bags out of the boot in your car, you're not going to do yourself an accidental injury because you've gathered that strength. So that's the idea from a leadership point of view is embrace adversity. So let's say you're sitting here and you're thinking right what's on my plans over the next kind of three to six to nine months? Where are my stretch moments? And although they might not be comfortable, don't rate myself on whether I've been successful or not. Rate them on how much adversity, how much challenge, how much strength am I building as a result of that, and it can completely transform a feeling of overwhelm and powerlessness and failure into, well, actually, the most successful people, the resilient people that can keep on doing it year in, year out, have probably learned that way. They weren't born that way. They've learned that way as a result of putting themselves to those planned practice moments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good one, Laurane. I think that's really important is how do you build that strength, that resilience? So you know, we always say you know you emerge wiser, stronger and more able from any setbacks. It's not about bouncing back either I hate that word. It's just about how we emerge stronger, wiser and more able to deal with it the next time, with lessons learned and reflection. And you know, what could we have done differently or what could I have done differently? First was the leader. You know, maybe before you know, we would say, before you point the finger out at other people, metaphorically pointing you've got three fingers pointing back at you. So, as the leader, checking in on yourself first, could I, what could I have done differently, better, more of? And then getting that feedback and not being so ingrained in your own status is to be humble enough to hear it and then go okay, point taken, let me work on that. So vulnerability, I think, is key.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've just seen. On your jacket you're wearing the Dolly Parton badge.
Speaker 2:I've got my Dolly Parton badge, which is what would Dolly do? This is my little mantra. This is what I'm carrying around with me at the moment. What would Dolly do? This is my little mantra. This is what I'm carrying around with me at the moment. Yes, what would Dolly do?
Speaker 1:Oh, what's the phrase someone said to me only last week. It costs a lot of money to look this cheap.
Speaker 2:That's another one of hers, oh I love it, we love. Dolly yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I know you're so inspired by her. So whether it's kind of 21st century Dolly or whether it's like 7th century BC, the Stoics oh, I love that. The fourth principle Now I had to practice this this weekend as yet another parcel arrived of clothes that don't fit, but the labels have been taken off. So we're stuck with these clothes. And as I was there brushing my teeth, thinking I've got to have a conversation with my daughter about this, about wasting money, I literally was about to walk down the stairs with toothbrush still in hand, about to sort of have this conversation, I thought, right, I know, we're preparing for our stoic related podcast.
Speaker 1:What would a stoic view on this? They'd probably say hold fire for a moment and practice emotional mastery. So this is the fourth one. So, whether you are a leadership role within your household or within your own head, or within a formal team or an informal team, the fourth principle from the Stoics would be practice emotional mastery. Stay calm in chaos. Don't react impulsively. Pause, reflect and act with reason, not emotion. And the quote from this Epictetus and I know our colleague Lex loves this it's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
Speaker 2:Yeah definitely that is such a big thing. And I think that ability to manage your impulse and catch yourself before you lose it and you know, I know, when we're talking about that emotional intelligence part as well, that self-regulation of emotion, so you're not taking the you know, just a straight road to straight through the middle of it. You're taking what we call the high road, so you're pausing and reflecting rather than just reacting. It can make a huge difference. And just pausing and thinking about what it is I'm going to say how am I going to say it, rather than just believe you can win it because you've done it before but you don't know the audience. So I think, yeah, that's such a, it's such a big one.
Speaker 2:You have to not be unemotional that's not right Cause that's not authentic then but still have a level of emotion, but not be a master how you use it, and we can all do that and the impact it has. Just watch the ripple effect of whether you chuck it out your toys out the pram. Watch the ripple effect. Or if you pause and respond by asking questions, being curious first, the difference is like tenfold. You can just see the difference with people that you're interacting with. Yeah, I love that one.
Speaker 1:But I think that's where it's useful having almost like a third party authority figure that you carry around in your head, because you know for many years I had what would Debs do?
Speaker 2:And I remember that then helped where.
Speaker 1:You know, typically when I'm feeling comfortable, it's the impulse to speak up. That is the one that I need to sort of just tread a little bit carefully with. But do you remember that scenario I had where there'd been a really inappropriate comment that had been made on a training course I was running? Yes, oh my God, I was so shocked by it, I was just stunned silence, and it was a hugely deeply racist, offensive remark that was made in the morning check-in and I'd never experienced that before. This was about 15 years ago now. That's a long time ago now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember that, but it was shocked because I just stayed silent, because I just did not know how to respond. So actually the impulse control was keep quiet, be a good girl, don't say anything, because I don't really know what to do here. But the emotional mastery to then practice from that is actually where are my values on this? What would Debs do, wwdd, what would Debs do? Or what would Dolly do? Or what would a stoic do? Actually, that's the core value that's been trodden on right there. And I'm not here to look good as the trainer, I'm here for the good of the people I'm in. So that was a real stoic test within that, so sometimes it's not just about keeping quiet.
Speaker 1:It's actually about speaking up when there is something that is really unpracticed. And I hadn't experienced those adverse conditions before. Now I have. I know what to do. So that's the other benefit of the third principle of embrace adversity.
Speaker 2:The fourth principle yeah, and embracing adversity as well.
Speaker 1:The third one embrace adversity, because it then enables you to feel more confident for when the next things come up. That's really true. So the fifth one and I know this is I'm sure you'll have a lovely call to action from this. So the fifth one and I know this is I'm sure you'll have a lovely call to action from this serve a greater good. Leadership is service. Seneca emphasised contributing to the common welfare. A stoic leader puts the mission and team above ego. And listen to this as a quote. This is from Seneca. Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness for kindness.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that one. Yeah, yeah, I do love that one. I think that's what's that? What's um Gandhi's quote serve your. Lose yourself in the service of others. That was another quote that you know somebody that we worked with years and years and years ago actually used to say to his teams as well. And you, just when you stop and think about that, it's like, yeah, how am I serving my fellow man, woman, you know, whoever it might be? And I think that it's like, yeah, how am I serving my fellow man, woman, whoever it might be? And I think that's what's really important. And for me, this is where personal purpose comes into it. How do you create your own, I suppose, personal leadership philosophy? And so it's aligned with who you are, with your values. What do you stand for? Which is what we do on a couple of our workshops is to so, who are you? Because who you are is how you lead, and how you lead is who you are right. So you know, to be able to identify what is that for you can make a huge difference.
Speaker 2:I picked up a quote from someone. I wrote it down because they said they want to be a CEO and I went oh, that's interesting, I want it's all about them. Who wouldn't? But I reframed it and the purpose-driven leader might say this I want to build environments where people feel safe to grow, take bold risks and create value together. So the mindset shapes every decision differently and I went oh, how cool is that? Don't need to say I want to be a CEO. You just put that statement out there and you'll automatically be put up there as a real. Oh my God, you're a leader to be followed. Yeah, so language plays a big part in that as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, I absolutely love that. And you know final little nugget my husband's job hunting at the moment and he's got a couple of sort of jobs on the radar and one is his front runner and he said I had an interview with this woman and I want to work for her. I'm not even too bothered about what the job is. I've been looking for years for an inspirational leader and I think this is the one.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. That actually was what has kind of carried that job above the other options is actually, I just really want to be led by that person. I think she'll bring out the best in me and I thought that was a really interesting example of the tangible benefits of a leader who was there for their people. Yeah, definitely, Debs. We've got the Stoics from two and a half thousand years ago.
Speaker 2:Here we are. We've got Dolly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've got Dolly from you know who's sort of current. So what would be a call to action? And I'll do a share the secret for those listening in, for whom this is a relevant topic and you don't have to be a leader now to be able to apply this. This is leadership in any part of life, whether it's domestic, professional, commercial charity, whatever it may be. That's a scenario that you're in.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a scenario that you're in. Oh, that's a good one. There's so many. So for me, I think it would be my call to action would be create meaning for yourself as to what it is why you're here, over status. So what is it you're offering? What is it, how will you serve others? What will you do to, I suppose, practice all of those things that you've just listed before, actually, and being able to make good decisions based on integrity rather than impulse? So I think, yeah, asking yourself that question is this about me or is this about the greater good? And then that would be my call to action Stop and reflect on who am I doing this? For me or them? And for me, it should be all about the other people.
Speaker 1:Oh, love it. My share of the secret would be if you and a colleague are kind of thinking you know, this is my year, I'm looking at all of the things I see around me and I'm thinking I would do it in a different way, well, maybe this is your year to get your confidence up and actually put your hand up and say, actually I'll take the lead in on this, because it's not about your charisma, it's about your character. So and in fact, we're seeing lots of books written about the quiet leader, the introverted approach, so why not you? So grab a colleague, get them to listen to this, and then you can have a little lunch and learn together and maybe set yourself some objectives, just to be able to gently check in on each other. Love that.
Speaker 1:So, devs, this has been our first in our four-part focus. Look at inspirational leadership, really looking forward to the next one. And, um, I love it when you talk about the whole 90-day plan thing. So if you are about to take on a team, or if you've inherited or just gone into a new scenario as as a leader, or it's on the radar, we're going to look at how do you make that first move to leader? It happens once in your career. Yeah, because once you got it on your CV, that's it. It's part of your identity and there are some really cool ways of just looking at that first 90 days so you can start well. So I'm really looking forward to that one, devs.
Speaker 2:Oh, me too. In the meantime, have a very stoic week, won't you?
Speaker 1:Lorne, I will Dig deep sister.
Speaker 2:Yeah, keep checking in on those philosophies and come up with that. Yeah, oh, brilliant conversation. I've loved this one.
Speaker 1:I'm stoic, yeah, me too. Me too Doing to enabling yes, that's it what we're doing to enable not do. Yeah, we need a country and western approach to some stoic philosophies.
Speaker 2:That's what we need. Yeah, we do, don't? We Love it.
Speaker 1:Well, you too. All right, then, love you Bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact, at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work. You.