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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
233 Confidence vs Ego as a Leader
In this final of our 4-part focus on inspirational leadership, we take a look at the difference between confidence and egotism when you are a leader. As Lau is working overseas for the week, Debs is joined by our colleague and team dynamics expert Lindsey Thompson who shares real life examples.
She takes us through 4 real world examples of ego ruining the vibe: The Micromanager in Chief, The Feedback Dodger, The Spotlight Stealer and The Meeting Monopoliser.
Useful refresher for being mindful of our impact and influence on people when in a visible role.
secrets from a coach. Thrive and maximize your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with debbie green of wishfish and laura thompson staveley of phenomenal training.
Speaker 2:Debs Linz, that's a bit of a weird one. Wes Law, yeah, wes Law? Well, you could say Wes Law. She's actually over the other side of the pond in New Orleans this week. It's impressive, isn't it? It's not bad, is it? So she's a jet set traveller love it.
Speaker 2:So, yes, I'm really pleased that you could sort of step in and talk all about this lovely topic that we've got, which is the fourth in our four part series this month, which has all been about leadership, and we've covered off making the move to first time leaders. What does that mean to people and how we can get the best out of that? We've looked at the stoic approach to leadership, which is one of Laura's all-time fave topics, isn't it when she talks about the stoics? And then we've also done leading through change, because that's a real big topic that's happening at the moment. So the one we're going to talk about today, linz, is this confidence versus ego as a leader. Before we start, as to why I think this is right up your street and why we've got you talking about it is because of what you do. So tell our listeners a bit about what you're doing now. We do talk about you going. Oh, my God, she's incredible, but now you can tell us all as to what it is and why and how this plays out.
Speaker 3:So what do I do? I do what you guys do. You know I facilitate like coach, but what's in my heart is transactional analysis in organizations, which really means I love to get in deep in the organization to understand the structure, the system, the teams and how it is for the people within the organization so I can help organizations identify and then eliminate dysfunction within that organization, whether that's at the structure level, team level or intrapsychically, in the people. What's going on with the people? So the psychodynamics of humans in a team, which I find fascinating. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I love that. The psychodynamics of a team is like oh my God. Whenever you say that when we're in a workshop, everybody looks and go whoa, you can feel that what is that? And then they explore.
Speaker 3:It's that it's that real. I find it incredibly exciting that any team that we're working with or any room that we're working with is a unique organism. It can't be replicated the people that are in that team with their personalities at that time yeah nothing can ever replicate it, which is fascinating by itself, and this is why I love this subject, because the leader, the, you know, the leader in in that organization or in that team, yeah, has such an impact, it does on on that dynamic. So, yeah, it's like yeah thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:No, my pleasure, and I think this has been something that we talk about, isn't it Like leave your ego at the door the minute you step into it, the minute you bring your ego into work, then that's not going to help. And I know that some people will say well, what's the difference between confidence and ego? And I think when we're exploring this and I'll get you to sort of tell us a bit more, but I think sometimes there's quite a fine line between that, isn't it? While they might appear similar on the surface, I always think their roots and the results that that generates are really, really different. Because if you think we always like the fact that confidence is based on grounded, I suppose, in self-awareness, which comes from, I suppose, a great level of competence and preparation and making sure that you've got some level of humility, whereas on the ego side of it sometimes it's rooted in insecurity, needing validation all the time and control and credit for different things.
Speaker 2:So I think you know I was like that phrase where confidence listens and ego talks. So how do we listen more than we talk? And then what do we do when confidence delegates, but I think ego micromanages. So I suppose how do we ensure that leaders lead and are brave and lead with confidence and are wise enough to keep their egos in check? So in your experience, I suppose there is a fine line between that. But what you know, what's your, what would be your wisdoms around that lins, it's an interesting question around ego, because I think you know everybody has an ego.
Speaker 3:It's, you know, it's our sort of unconscious, sort of defended place of where we go to to make ourselves feel great, yeah, and good about ourselves. And I know I sometimes say that that ego does breed confidence. Yeah, so that, and I think it's beyond self-esteem, it's that self-belief, yeah, you know, in an idea and a concept, especially if we're talking about, for example, I don't know the startup. Somebody must have complete belief in their idea, their ability to bring it to life. And I always say sometimes that ego is absolutely the catalyst that sparks great ideas, but at some point it can also then be the trapdoor to failure, so to speak.
Speaker 3:You know what I think we can certainly see at times. You know it's a bit like you need to have the, the, the ego, to be able to paint the vision and sell this idea and get people on board. And, you know, light the fire of excitement for people. But if you do it too much, you just burn everybody out. So I think it is as a leader comes back to. You know, we always say every great leader needs a coach, because someone at some point is a. You know, if you have. If you haven't had the ability to hold your own mirror up, somebody to work with you to to hold that mirror up for you is is key. So it's not like the ego is a bad word, it isn't. We all. We all have it at some point and sometimes, you know, it plays out well and sometimes it doesn't. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a really I think that's a really interesting definition because obviously, when we do insights, discovery with people, when we handing out the cards, there is always one that has got on it high ego strengths and everybody looks at that card and it's fascinating because they look at it and go. I can't give that to anyone and you know that's, that's a bad thing. And but, as you said, you know, with that level of self-awareness, knowing what you are able to do, capable of all of that, with that humility around it, that is a strength right In the world of work today and I was. I'm fascinated when people want to hand away that card and go. I'm going to keep it because I can't give it to anyone.
Speaker 3:So I think it's always interesting when we're working with organizations where you know the the, the originator of the idea, is still running the business and is the CEO and is no longer like, no longer it's beyond the startup, it's trying to get traction, it's got investors and. But the history that got them here has been their ideas, their thoughts, their recruitment, them driving everything. And that, that, that sweet spot where somebody has the ability to say no, you're wrong yeah.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes the the wanting to be right instead of wanting or needing to do right can get blurred if the ego goes unchecked and they're not taking feedback on or not listening, a bit like you said, your reference that you know not listening because, yeah, what's got them here is shouting, telling, getting stuff done or driving forward. At what point do they do they have the ability to pause and stop and go where? How are we doing? Now we're no longer a startup. So, yeah, you know, we, we do. We do see it where, when you know, not everyone is self-aware to know that they are able to build confidence with listening, with humility. I can be ambitious, but I can still lead with purpose and not my own personal pride.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is always fascinating, isn't it? Because I know I was doing some research around this and I came up with I don't know where I found it, so I need to probably look but there was one thing that came up which I thought was brilliant. There's a couple of egos that could ruin the vibe when you have it, and there was four that I came across. So the first one was the micromanager in chief, and the second one was the spotlight stealer, which I thought was brilliant. The feedback dodger, which aligns to what you've just been talking about, and the meeting monopolizer.
Speaker 2:Yet how many times have we been witness to some of these things happening? And I don't think there's any. You know there's wrong, right, there's just they are, but they can show up in different ways with people. So if we were to say, let's take the first one around the micromanager in chief, some of that is you know, they rewrite everyone's work, they don't trust the team, how can somebody move away from that and get away from micromanaging and it not be all about them, I think that's a really interesting point because how it feels to be micromanaged.
Speaker 3:We may make the assumption that they don't trust me. Yeah, and I was working with a team recently and the the leader that we they'd asked me to definitely have him do some work because he's a bit of a micromanager. But when I did the work with them, what became really clear was why I was saying they were over-nurturing. Ah, okay, so they were almost rescuing people before they could fall Right. Okay, so I won't ask you to do that. If I don't put that on them and I don't, I don't, I don't. I wouldn't expect them to work as hard as that, so I wouldn't expect that that's too much to ask them. And if someone was doing something where they thought they could make an estate, they'd almost step in and go how you doing? Well, how's it going now? And it was. It was really frustrating for the person that we were working with, but actually when we did it, that over nurturing was came was coming through as micro managing, which was fascinating yeah, well, where does that come from, though, liz?
Speaker 2:because you know, linds, where's the over that, over nurturing where? Where does that come from, so that?
Speaker 3:comes from when we talk about parent, adult and child. If I was to have a relationship with a team where I've been the parent and I may have I have that kind of symbiotic relationship where I tell you what to do when you do it a bit like when we do when we've got children and at some point the child becomes a teenager and you go, yeah, I want you home by 10. And they go, yeah, I'm not. And then we go, okay, we need to move to a place of negotiation where I listen to your needs and you listen to mine and sometimes in the development of an organisation, the script has been set. The organisational script has been set by that owner of the business or the head of that business where I'm in charge.
Speaker 2:Right, Okay, got you.
Speaker 3:And that can be very structuring or very critical. And don't do this, do that. Lots of rules and regulations, or it might just be. I won't ask you to do anything too difficult in case you can't do it. Oh so no one learns, basically no one learns. And if that person leaves the team, isn't that you know not? So we always, we always talk about the tell-tale, ask continuum, isn't it? You know, if you've always told people in your team how to do something, but then you don't, like I'm gonna have to do you ever told us? So how do you, how do you move people from a parent-child relationship to an adult, adult space where we, we negotiate and have a discussion about? Well, actually, when you do that. This is how I feel, and what I'd appreciate more is if you allowed me to do this and that real honest, you know, feedback, conversation and yeah kind of resetting the working agreement, because what works then might not work work now, which I'm sure leads nicely to your mic noise.
Speaker 3:It's called the feedback dodger.
Speaker 2:The feedback dodger according to it says ego hates being wrong and it treats feedback like a personal attack on them instead of a growth opportunity. Whereas confidence will say tell me more, Ego says you clearly don't get my vision. Well, that's not how we do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, yeah that's another one.
Speaker 2:That's not how we do it here, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think the challenge is for that. Feedback dodger is it's hitting a defensive place Got you Okay. Feedback dodger is it's hitting a defensive place got you okay, and you know. I think that that defensive place means that person is resistant to change right, okay, and their personal image of how I look right now, yeah, um, is key. You know, and coming, understanding yourself and knowing that actually it's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to be wrong. That is giving permission to the team to make mistakes and be wrong. That really is modelling the way. But being vulnerable is not nice.
Speaker 2:No, people don't like to do it, do they?
Speaker 3:It doesn't feel safe. I had to do something today where I actually had 10 people like to do it, do they? It doesn't feel safe. You know, I had to do something today where I actually had 10 people listening to a tape and recording of me doing some coaching and it was like, oh, it's awful because you're really exposed, yeah, so it's much easier operating that place where I know I'm right, this, you know I've got this nailed and if you're challenging me, you're challenging me right.
Speaker 2:You know not the, not the concept yeah, got you okay, and that's why they don't always take it. But people are scared sometimes, aren't they? If you know? If they've had a negative reaction to the, to the feedback dodger, and they happen to be their boss, you know that's. You know people are very reluctant sometimes to have another go. Or if there aren't, as you said, the contract or how we're going to work together in place. But how easy is it to put that in place in an established team?
Speaker 3:I think there's an element of how you position it right. You know, you know we, you know we do loads of work around this. Giving feedback up is is, you know I think it's probably when we talk in in workshops what's the toughest thing to do, and it's giving feedback up. You know a whole workshop by itself that we can run, but you know there is a way that says this isn't.
Speaker 3:This isn't easy for me to say yeah, and this is coming from a genuinely good place, and while I value all that you've bought, are you okay, you know, so that we can really get me working effectively and do the best for you, can I give you some feedback? You know, I think, yeah, hitting the spot where they can listen, which is is good for the business, it's good for you and it's it's good to hear it that there, we will listen. But there is also something around the culture that's created. Yeah, yeah, that must be hard. What's the culture of that organisation where feedback is open? It's in the moment. If that's not, there, some of that sits because of how the leader is right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose, as you said, being able to get to that individual and help them see it for what it is, that takes a lot of leader is right. Yeah, absolutely, and I suppose, as you said, being able to get to that individual and help them see it for what it is, that that takes a lot of, I suppose, a lot of awareness and a willingness to want to even make a shift, because, as you said, their persona outside, going outwards, may be this tough and to suddenly come in as a very different individual, must be really hard for some of them to overcome, really, but it's how we can get them to see the benefits of it, isn't it?
Speaker 3:sometimes I'll be running workshops somebody. One of the questions I'll often ask somebody is what is the most challenging piece of feedback or the most painful feedback you've ever had? And when someone says, oh, I remember when I was you know, I was 27 and someone said that to me and that was the moment where they had a choice yeah, they could have gone. Oh, they're ridiculous, I'm not like that. Or they've gone. Oh, yeah, that hurt. Yeah, where's the truth in that? And explored that. And people that are open to that, then we know can become amazing leaders. And they're those kind of yeah, sliding doors, defining moments where someone goes, wow, I'm gonna work on this, or I don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and again, it's down to choice, isn't it Around it? If we go on to look at some of the others, which killed me when I read them, and I've seen this the spotlight stealer I was working with a team only a couple of weeks ago and it was really fascinating to watch that dynamic play out, because the team had obviously worked on something together. Yet when I was finding out how was it, what did it do? The leader stepped in and went yeah, that's all that work that I did and I went. Well, I thought it was a wee and it was fascinating and it was like owning it. Well, I thought it was a good idea.
Speaker 2:That's why I encourage people to do it, and all the time I'm sitting going oh my God, you're just crushing your team over here, can you not see it? So the spotlight yeah, I suppose it demands that solo encore, as I found it Whereas, even though it's the team, they still want you to know that it was their idea. How do people overcome that? Well, I think there's a lot of people that they won't win the happen.
Speaker 3:Oh, I well, I think the reality is, yeah, you had there's a level of self-awareness that knows you're doing it and I think you know, I, we, we've, I know we've been in the room together where you know someone's done that and we can see the room roll in their eyes, crossing their arms, going off. Here we go. You know, I like I think I had that really interesting thing was can't you, can't, you see that's yeah, that's, that's that. That's the reaction. So you know, some people, we know we are, and they may be amazing at other things. Yes, it may be incredible, but that doesn't mean they have humility and the ability to to find out, yeah, how, how they're led, yeah, and that is that. That is definitely that's not about me. Now let's talk about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that moment where you're like, oh, if only you'd be mindful of what you're. Yeah, watch the room, watch the room, but they people don't, because I suppose, as he said, it's the spotlight stealer, but the spotlight is on them, so they're blinded by the light. Right, there's a? There's, because I suppose, as you said, it's the spotlight stealer, but the spotlight is on them, so they're blinded by the light, right.
Speaker 3:There's a bit where you know I always say it's like those kids that go to X Factor and go. I said no one told you you can't sing. It's like what are you doing? Don't do that, that's just awful. But if you don't breed a culture within an organisation where you can go, what's that about? You carry on because you're you're, you are unaware. It's not, it's not within your, it's not within your gift Fascinating isn't it which again, we've seen this a lot the meeting monopolizer.
Speaker 2:And you just think, oh, my goodness me, this person, are they ever going to shut up? Because ego just speaks right, and they just take over. And I know we've witnessed where people are itching to speak and then they go oh, I've got my stage, and they just don't stop. And again, how do people even recognize that they are doing that in the first place? Because there must be some simple tips they could do, as in a confident know. A confident person, you know, or somebody with confidence, will do their prep, maybe have some, you know, pre-planning, think about what the topics are, blah, blah, blah. But I'm just wondering, therefore doesn't an ego-driven leader just wander in and wing it? You know what's your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's an overplay? Yeah, okay. So I think at some point within their script that's gone to a place that what they've created has worked Right, got you. And you know, I think sometimes that facade of you know, let me be the singing, dancing version of me and let me do the show hands and you know that's their conscious persona that says this is how I think I need to be in this role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, got you Okay.
Speaker 3:I think the challenge is, you know, I say the person, anyone's personality, comes to the role. Yeah, okay, they bring certain things to that role and that role is unique within that organisation. There's challenges for that role in the organization and there's challenges, yeah, in that personality, in our personality, for that role got you and, I think, other in other times and I think we've seen it sometimes over the last few years. You know, for example, a leader 25 years ago was very different to the, the leader you'd need to be in 2025.
Speaker 2:right, yeah, that worked yeah, it worked then, yeah, that worked then yeah and I I am that works.
Speaker 3:I'm sticking, I'm staying with the script that I created for myself, because that's the safest option, yeah, whereas to try something new means I've got to be, I've got to have some humility, I've got to have some vulnerability, I've got to ask how I'm landing. I need to be seeking feedback, and we know that leaders that seek genuinely seek yeah, genuinely seek negative feedback, yeah are more effective as leaders, whereas people that seek was that all right, did I do good there? Lovely thanks. Reaffirming, reaffirming feedback just keeps me saying, yeah, I'm, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. So I think, when it's not, I think we usually get people working with us when they realise how they are isn't working, yes, or no longer as effective as I thought I was. I don't know why my team is disgruntled with me. I don't know why my team's unhappy, and then we're in that really honest space that says how challenging do you want us to be? What feedback would you like us to give?
Speaker 2:What have we observed? Yeah, yeah, and it takes a lot of courage.
Speaker 3:It never, ever ceases to amaze me how much, how vulnerable people are. You know I'm so privileged to be in the position to work someone through. Help them work through that self-development space where they can emerge, you know, stronger, wiser and more able to to do what they want to do well, yeah, I think it's brilliant.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what we're going to do. We're going to in a moment. We're going to um, just touch on briefly when. How do you start to deal with something, with an ego leader, if it starts to become a bit more abusive and coercive or narcissistic or misogynistic, which is the word I can never say, because it happens. So shall we explore that in a moment, linz, and see what we can do with it? Okay, okay, linz.
Speaker 2:So it can be painfully real right out there in the world today, and I know there's no size one size fits all strategy around it.
Speaker 2:But if we're thinking about, how do we start to overcome that, if somebody is crossing over into that abusiveness or coercion or narcissism, whatever it might be, because if you feel it, you're not overreacting to it by asking how to handle it, and a lot of people won't necessarily ask how do I handle that until they've left the organization and it just disappears.
Speaker 2:And I think, because that type of leadership can be really toxic and very damaging it's how do you create that environment where we can, I suppose, call it out? How can we actually assess what's going on, knowing what the situation is we're finding ourselves in and also what do we do to act upon that and how do we protect ourselves as we go through it? Because I know some people have certainly through coaching, have had that experience and it's heartbreaking that another human can do that to another human. And I know we only ever hear one side of it. But it's enough to challenge that individual and not know what to do. But if we were to think about what is it that maybe drives a narcissistic behavior in somebody? What's deep? It's deep. I I know we're going to light touch this one lynn the deeper the childhood trauma, the more of a narcissist we can become.
Speaker 3:Okay, you can all have narcissistic. So I so dislike the person that I really think I am. I'm going to put on this front and then I'm going to go through my life utilizing people like coffee machines right to get what I need. And if I don't, if I've, if I've used it, I'll spat you out. I'll go onto a new coffee machine, so to speak, and that's the broad brush approach. Yeah, yeah, the challenge. I think the challenge we've got in in organizations where you know we've got our organizational script playing out and then we've got, uh, somebody who may be having narcissistic traits or toxic traits as a leader which will have an impact on how it feels to work within that organization or that team. Yeah, and you know, if we've got somebody for example, you know, with our script drivers, if you've got somebody who has a please others driver, for example, that means they're literally programmed to want to please someone, right?
Speaker 3:which then is a weak could be used as a weakness. Yeah, okay, because they are. You know, we'll often. We often call them the people that they they're the say nothings. Right, okay. Instead of saying, oh, that's a bit rude, or what what's that game? They will say do you know what? I'll nothing, I'll just let it go. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Let it pass yeah.
Speaker 3:But that's an interesting dynamic that will often say nothing for them Ah, okay, but often you'll find if it's in defence of someone else, you'll often hear that, oh, I'm not having that Okay. Of someone else, you'll often hear that I'm not having that okay. So I think this is around, this has been really clear on your own self-worth and your own boundaries, around what is okay and what's not okay in, in, in how we work here or how you're spoken to me. You know, sometimes we're not really sure. You know you kind of want to say something that was a bit rude. Yeah, because you're checking it out. Yeah, and I think that that is also the challenge.
Speaker 3:If any psychological games are playing up, playing out in the team, you kind of question, you know, you know we've seen the drama triangle play out a million times over and over. You know sometimes you're going, oh, is that? Oh, was that a dig? Was that? Yeah, was that okay? And if you're feeling something, oh, this is, oh, it feels a bit, I don't know, I'm not sure if you're thinking about it or feeling odd, it probably is yeah, okay, because your feelings are there to give you a bit of a warning, aren't they really?
Speaker 2:but it's checking them out first, isn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, those people that are more sensitive will feel it as they walk in the room like it just feels horrible in it. Yeah, it just feels weird. Um, yeah, but what will be happening to you? Yeah, got you might just be something you're you're you're experiencing. So if you've got someone, for example, with a, with a, b, strong driver, I'll go. You know what? Just crack on and carry on, yeah okay.
Speaker 2:So I suppose you need to sort of ask yourself if you're getting a sense of, or feeling. Just ask yourself, I suppose, is this just an isolated or a bad day, or or is it a pattern that's starting to emerge so you can sort of be more mindful about it? I suppose um, is it impacting on my mind, health and my sense of safety? I think is you've got to ask yourself that as well.
Speaker 3:I always, I always say check the gateway, yes, and we always say what you know. So what? What am I thinking at the minute? What's that feeling I've got and what have I just seen? What's the behaviour that's making me feel? Because there's a gateway somewhere that will tell you, if you can break it down into what's the gateway to it. To it, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then asking yourself is this okay?
Speaker 3:Yeah, is it okay. If my child was 17 and joining this organisation, what would I say? Don't come here, or come here, you'll love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's interesting to check in, isn't it? Would you tell someone, a younger person or someone just your own family, would they come and work here? That's that pub test, isn't it? We always say would you tell people where you work if you're going down for a pub or go for a drink somewhere? So looking at it from there. But I think it's an interesting one, this one, because the other one, I suppose, is which could lead into the meeting monopolizer that we talked about, was this the misogyny piece may show up like where they might talk over you and they might dismiss your ideas in a meeting, so they monopolize it. But they could also be demonstrating some of that behavior as well, and again, I suppose it's based on their scripts, as you were saying. Would that be fair to say?
Speaker 3:some of its scripts, some of its personality yeah okay, that's.
Speaker 3:You know, we'll often work with someone who is really good at their job, but if I had to describe them, I'd say they're a lone wolf. Oh yeah, okay, got you. They are great going out in on their own, you know, defending and going out into the world, but suddenly you've got a team to take with you. So, instead of being collaborative, going you know what's your thinking, we're like, no, not doing that, no, it's a ridiculous idea. Let's do this because that's how they're, that's how they are. That takes a lot of work to go. Okay, maybe it's the wrong job. Maybe leading people and we've got people where we've gone. Definitely don't. You know some people. It's not you know some people, you're, they're great as a process driver or they're, you know, doing something more strategic where I haven't got to kind of galvanise the troops to come with us. So, yeah, sometimes it is just how you're hardwired. Yeah, but I believe everyone's capable of change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm with you, linz. I think, yeah, unless there's something fundamentally, but I think, yeah, there's always something that you could maybe unlock within them, that's if they want to right, which is a choice unlock within them, that's if they want to right, which is a choice and we I know I was talking about this today.
Speaker 3:Coming out of our script also means we're losing some of our safety yeah, okay so it's not something you can do. You know, we do you, so let's just do this and everything will be fine, because there's almost like a bit of grieving for what I'm losing. Okay, you know, that's why that coaching space is so important to make someone feel safe, and I'm working with someone at the minute who had a belief about his team, which was don't trust anybody here.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 3:Which was a really strong belief. So he was very much head down, get work done by himself, because he didn't trust anybody within that organisation. It was an anxious organisation, it was triggering him and that piece of work where we said is it everybody? Oh, there's a couple of people that I trust, yeah, so is it? Don't trust anybody?
Speaker 3:so no, I can trust some, okay so reframing it I'm not asking you to trust the world, I'm not asking you to trust everybody in the organization, but if we were to go with trust some, what would that look like? Yeah, got you and that's putting down some of those defenses out, coming out of my defensive script position to go okay, because what would happen if you let them in?
Speaker 2:yeah, oh my god, it's, isn't it? When we talk about this whole confidence versus ego and how do we do it? There is so much to it, isn't it? But I think, as you said, it sort of starts with that ability to have a great level of self-awareness and, as you say, actively seek out that feedback if you're in a leadership or a manager position to go what am I doing well, what am I not doing well?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think there's an element around. I think it's almost like I don't think ego is good or bad. I think it's almost like using it like a tool. Yeah, yeah, you know, if you were to go, you know, we know, when we're running a workshop or something, you know, you, you you've got to look like you're competent, and we assess how competent someone is by how confident they look. So sometimes, just pulling on a bit of ego that goes I can do this, I've got this, you know that bravado, I've got this, I'm good at this stuff, whatever it is, you know, that's a great tool to be able to pull out of your bag for that moment, but it is recognising that it's not the only tool in the bag and actually at times that tool is going to turn into a club.
Speaker 2:That's a good way of looking at it. Actually. Yeah, what do you want? Yeah, put it away, put it away. Yeah, but I suppose it's the cost, isn't it, of if people don't get this bit right, the overall ultimately impacts on people, the organisation. It's not a great place to work, all of that. It has a massive impact, doesn't it if? If people aren't aware of it and I suppose that's part of becoming aware and looking I love. The fact is the culture. Is it ingrained within it? Can it be shifted? How long will it take? Can you be bothered? I suppose that's the other thing, isn't it asking yourself can I be bothered?
Speaker 3:yeah, and I think eric b thing isn't it Asking yourself, can I be bothered? Yeah, and I think Eric Bowne always says if you're a bystander and doing nothing, you're still playing the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah very true, if you're seeing it play out and you're not calling it you're still in it.
Speaker 2:You're still in it, yeah. So it's about that, isn't it? I love that. So I think this has been fascinating, linz, because we started off with that looking at. What does it mean? How do we recognize it? How can we overcome it? What are some of the things that we can do?
Speaker 2:And, as always, it comes back in that having a great sense of self-awareness and being secure in who you are, knowing all your warts and all right, which is what we always say to leaders is what are you good at? What are you maybe not so good at? How might you overcome that? All of that lovely stuff that we do? But yeah, it's been fascinating to understand that. It's a lot deeper and I suppose working across it and understanding it is really, really important. So if you were to give us a bit of a call to action, I'm going to ask you to do the call to action and then share with us what would be your call to action. If you find either you are that ego leader at times or if you're spotting it in others, what would you say?
Speaker 3:Oh, I always say use the power or the potency of the team Nice, not in a negative way, in a game-playing way, but being able to look to each other. Together, we are always stronger. You know, I think Eric Burns said that very few people can pull themselves up by their own psychological bootstraps or keep their moral compass intact. So, knowing that and thinking well, who am I checking in with? Yeah, who do I check in with? Is my moral compass intact? Who? Who can pull me up from my bootstraps and give me my honest feedback? Because if you don't have those people that you can think of, there's something about the culture or the climate. That's. That's not that it's not happening. Yeah, that's really cool. I love that. What's your part in that?
Speaker 2:yeah, because you, we all play a part, don't we? And it's having the yeah, that's really cool. I love that. What's your part in that? Yeah, because we all play a part, don't we? And it's having the courage to even hear what could be and what you might like to do and, you know, going from there.
Speaker 3:I think it's a really useful question. All the way along, wherever you are in your journey I hate that phrase, that journey Wherever you are to say so, who do I go to? Who's the person, who are the people I pick that phone up to and go, can I check my moral compass? Yeah, say, I need you to pull my moral, I need you to pull my big straps up for me. Is it me? Yeah, you know, you know, we know who we, yeah, us, yeah, but then you know, if you can't name them, then think about then who do I? Who, who can I choose? Because it might be that I've got a strong driver. I don't want any help from anybody. So if you were to go, okay, who can I choose? Who would be my go-to? Who do I cultivate?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because that's when we're talking about that real team.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that. Oh my God, I love that call to action. So I suppose that, yeah, share. The secret from me would be to just check in. I suppose Check in in with yourself and don't be the feedback dodger that killed me when I read that have the courage to understand what impact you are having, but that all links into how intelligent you are, emotionally right, which is a whole nother topic we could talk about. But this has been fascinating, linz, and as always, we know that you give so much of insight and make it practical and real so that we can go oh, that makes sense. I understand it. So I really appreciate you joining and doing sharing your experience on that, because this series has been all about leadership, whether it's with a small L or a big L, we are all in that position of how we can navigate our way through the journey, as you said.
Speaker 3:If ever I become the meeting monopolizer, because I love talking about ta too much, it's permission to tell me permission to tell you I will linds, no worry.
Speaker 2:I mean, rather than just roll my eyes or fall asleep at you go, oh, here she goes again.
Speaker 2:The thing is, it's fascinating, that's the thing. But there's an eagerness to want to know more, isn't there as well? But, yeah, keep it to the agenda. Sometimes it's difficult, isn't it with us? So we go from there. So this has been amazing. So thank you, linz.
Speaker 2:So, as I said, our four-part series is coming to an end as we sort of head into our next, which means we have a shiny new topic that we're talking about and we base this around a theme. Believe it or not, linz, we're going to talk about Star Wars as our theme, and we're going to talk about Star Wars as our theme, and we're going to look at what does it mean to access your inner Yoda in order to have a powerful presence? So we're going to do some exploration around that. This is Laura's favorite topic. Obviously, the droids keep us safe. So how can we engage teams with new techs? We're going to explore what that means and how that can help us be even better. And then self-belief in the workplace, which is the forces in you. So how can we do that? So they're just a few sprinkling tasters of what we're going to bring in our next series. So, um, yeah, so I'll be speaking to you again, I'm sure about some of those, the rebel alliance maybe? Oh, I'd like to think I'd like to challenge.
Speaker 3:You know darth fader's leadership, yeah, the climate he created in his leadership team yeah, says it all. You can never watch these programs now can you films without investigating it sadly, my, my, my teenage daughter the other day just looked at me and just said can you just turn?
Speaker 2:it off for a bit. So she was. She was comfortable not to be a feedback dodger, wasn't she? Yeah, oh, my god, linds, I just thank you very much, and I know laura's having a ball in new orleans doing her stuff and bringing people together. So, um, thank you for your time as well and look forward to the next one.
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