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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
237. A Rebel Alliance Approach to Performance Appraisal Systems
In our latest episode where we take the wisdom from Star Wars and apply to our world of work - and in this one we’re joining the Rebel Alliance to rethink how we approach performance appraisal systems. Joined by HR leader Kerri Fionda-Brookes, she inspires us to channel the Rebels: united with a shared purpose—despite different skills, styles, and backgrounds. We explore how performance reviews can become more human, empowering, and fit for the modern workplace.
We’ll dive into:
- Why traditional appraisal systems often miss the mark
- How to create a feedback culture rooted in trust and shared goals
- What emotional intelligence and team alignment can do for ongoing performance
Because when people feel seen, heard, and part of something bigger, they don’t just comply—they commit.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, you alright? Yeah, I'm alright, had a good week. I've had a good week. How you all right? Yeah, I'm all right, had a good week.
Speaker 2:I've had a good week. How's your week been? Yeah, good. I've been exploring all sorts of different things around how do you get the best out of people and how do you ensure that people are being heard and I think it ties in really nicely with our guest who we've got today, which I know you're going to share, who that is as well. But, yeah, it's been a good one to still on the Star Wars theme, obviously, and still loving it and still making reference to it and collecting quotes wherever I can. So, yeah, it's been a good week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ok.
Speaker 1:Now it's interesting because we're working with a few clients at the moment who are heading into their mid-year reviews yes, performance appraisals, engagement bits because we're working with a few clients at the moment who are heading into their mid-year reviews, performance appraisals, engagement bits.
Speaker 1:So things to do with performance reviews and likening that to the Star Wars theme is you're about to go into a conversation and it's with your manager, about a performance appraisal. Does that feel like a one-to-one with Darth Vader, where you get hot under the collar and potentially get exterminated in that moment, or does it feel like something where there's, you know, a good kind of force sort of to it? So I can't wait to listen to this one, debs, this is with a dear, dear HR friend of ours who we've worked alongside for many years now and she's going to be taking us through her experience of looking to change the culture around performance appraisals and taking maybe a rebel alliance approach to some of those you know, kind of permanent fixtures to performance appraisals. Is there another way that we can do it? That means we can have some really great performance empowering conversations. So really looking forward to this one, debs.
Speaker 2:Definitely Shall we listen in and see what Kerry had to say. Looking forward to this one, debs, definitely Shall we listen in and see what Kerry had to say. Hi everyone, as you can see, we're now well in our series of our Star Wars themed approach to how do we get the best out of people leading, managing and all of that. And, as you can see, I'm joined by a guest today, kerry Fionda-Brooks, and I'll get her to introduce herself in a moment. The reason we wanted to talk to Kerry? Because she is completely immersed in the lovely, wonderful world of HR and there is a bit of an alignment, because my background, for those who don't know, was also HR, and this topic in particular which we're talking about today is a Rebel Alliance approach to performance appraisals and we thought couldn't get a better person to talk about this from her experience. So, kerry, tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, what you do, give us a bit of a lowdown.
Speaker 3:Thanks, deb. So I'm Kerry. I'm currently Head of People Partnering at Leicester Aldridge, a legal firm predominantly based on the South Coast. My background, as you said, a legal firm predominantly based on the south coast. My background, as you said is, has been in hr for a long time more years than I get to mention now predominantly in financial services. So in the banking sector originally, I've done a little bit in retail kind of construction industry. I also took a brief segue, I guess you like, into education. Oh yeah, I spent some time as a secondary school teacher and actually I think that's another interesting take on delivering feedback as well when you're doing that for children. So yeah, performance management, or the topic thereof, is a real passion of mine. I can't comment on the Star Wars bit of it. I have to say Never seen any of them, so I'll take your word on the whole Rebel Alliance approach.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, I think it's one of those that either people have seen it or they haven't, and there's no sort of. I've seen a few.
Speaker 3:No in between. No in between. You're a haven.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's cool because you can still bring the experience. I can, yeah, and that's what we're actually looking for today. It is interesting you said that in the different industries that you've worked in and their different approach to performance management, in inverted commas appraisal, performance reviews, pdr reviews what else do they get called All sorts of random things, aren't they?
Speaker 3:Yeah, pdr performance appraisals tends to be typical, typical wording that I've seen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does, and I think you're saying, in the different sectors have different approaches to it and I know, certainly, back in the day, I actually never did a performance appraisal for any of my team. Um, maybe that's why I'm no longer in HR, but anyway, it's another story. But I was always the one that would do it at the. We were at the end of the year and yeah, but I would just have a summary by the end of the year. And yeah, but I would just have a summary by the end of the year because I I would have spoken to them anyway, my team, throughout the whole year. So we never, I suppose, formally sat down and went through a performance review. Yeah, but we were sitting down, chatting, giving feedback and I was just wondering I was well, explore this in a little more detail from your perspective as to generally, how important is it for somebody to have an appraisal of their performance or a performance appraisal? How important is it?
Speaker 3:I think it's really, really important to discuss performance. As you say, no one wants to drift aimlessly through their role, either blindly thinking that they're doing really really well or really worrying that they're not doing very, very well and they are. So those conversations around how you're doing are really, really important. The appraisal bit is the bit that really gets me because, as you say, it tends to be at that end of year. It would be lovely to be a summary, but what tends to be is quite a lot of paperwork, quite a lot of filling out of different boxes that don't apply, and I guess where I've seen it fall down when it's only done in that once a year is when it's talking about things that haven't been discussed throughout the year.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's where it goes wrong right.
Speaker 3:And that's where it tends to go wrong.
Speaker 2:So when you're thinking about that impact on the individual, then if it's left to the end of the year and there's a tick box exercise going on, really what is the impact on the individual then?
Speaker 3:I think individuals I think actually it's twofold individuals and line managers then tend to come to really dislike the process, really disengage from it and actually dread that bit because it's taking time out of the day to fill in a huge, perhaps Word document or whatever your system is that you use. And for the individual, if they've not had any feedback throughout the rest of the year, how valid is it to them to sit down in an hour and be told something that they might have done wrong six, 12 months ago that wasn't addressed at the time? That's going to be worth nothing to them in terms of them being able to make an action about it and being able to improve upon that. Similarly, if they've had no feedback to make them feel good about what they're doing throughout the rest of the year, giving it at that one point in the year is really not in the moment and they can't really live that and feel that. So doing it as a once a year process can be really disengaging.
Speaker 3:If it's done well and it is just a summary and actually all those conversations have happened at some point throughout the year, that's fine, and I won't even touch upon performance related pay and the fact that you might have to do it so and I know that's the way it is for a lot of organizations is they end up doing it because that is the end goal, and then that's what it influences, rather than the message that can really be delivered through it or bad appraisal.
Speaker 2:and then you hear all the stories, don't you of? Well, I never even had an appraisal with my manager, so how do they know what I'm doing? Or you know so, or they did have loads, and then they didn't get the mark that they wanted, yeah and it just, it's not good. If I could ban linking performance appraisals with pay review and bonus, I would, but hey, it's a system that's used, isn't?
Speaker 3:it, it is, it is, it is quite widely. I know, certainly in financial services it's a system that's used, isn't it? It is, it is, it is quite widely. I know, certainly in financial services it's probably even more so. And there was the pressure to fit a curve. The lovely bell curve the lovely bell curve, and then you know trying to force people one way or the other when actually that's not a true reflection of their performance or behaviour throughout the year either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's really difficult to navigate. If you're a manager joining normalization, that that is the process, I suppose. What can a manager do? Because I always used to say that Belker 5% at the top end, 5% at the bottom end everyone else good luck.
Speaker 2:It was a bit like that. And then don't get me started on a nine box grid calibration exercise either. But hey, that's something else. But managers coming in who may this could be their first time to performance review somebody. How would you, or what would you say? How they could run a good appraisal process? What would you advise?
Speaker 3:I think open and honest communication is key, but taking a bit more of a coaching approach can be really really helpful. So sitting down with the individual and asking them how they think that they've performed, asking them open questions so they have the opportunity to give some feedback. Not everyone feels safe in saying, oh actually, I really struggled with this and I don't think I've done as well in this year. So providing that safe environment for them to be able to do that and making sure they make the time that is a big thing, a pressure on everybody's diary. So making sure there's plenty of time for them to sit down and have that discussion, yeah, and is really key as well, I think, when it comes to reviewing objectives targets. The targets objectives are objectives. You know there's this pressure at the beginning of a performance year to make these smart objectives, but I suppose for line managers to remember it's not just the what's that have been done, it's the how's they've been done as well, and to recognize and reward those when those behaviors are what you're looking for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because that's sometimes where it gets crossed over, isn't? It and also where somebody might be super brilliant at doing the task, but their behavior is rubbish. And it's like how do you navigate your way through that type of conversation? Because they're hitting all their smart objectives KPIs, okrs, whatever you want to call them but their behavior is atrocious. How do you begin there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I guess you kind of can link it back to the culture, the environment that you're working in as well. So I've noticed that. What are your thoughts on that? Or you know who do they think is a particularly good role model within the organization. What behaviors did they see that individual demonstrating?
Speaker 2:And try and lead the discussion from there yes, and, as you say, coaching comes into its own in a performance appraisal right, because have you ever come across where the person running the appraisal talks more than the person the appraisal is?
Speaker 3:about definitely. Um, I've had that experience both ways. I've had it done really, really brilliantly where I've got to the end of a performance appraisal and thought, gosh, I feel like I've just done all of the talking for this and actually I've come to my own conclusions. And I've had it done the other way, where the person has talked so much that I haven't really felt like like a tick box exercise. That's the less coaching approach, where an individual really doesn't then feel brought in to the outcome anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then it just becomes a chore, as you said.
Speaker 3:It does yeah.
Speaker 2:And I know you mentioned about the time it takes and I was always advised that, whatever happens, finish on time, start on time, finish on time, don't come late if you are the manager doing the appraisal, and don't run it over. And I mean I'd be interested to see what your thoughts are on that, because sometimes in a one to one appraisal something comes up right and it can absolutely send in another direction. So what can people do in? I suppose what's your thoughts on start time, finish time and want to show as the manager and the employee?
Speaker 3:that you're both willing to engage in the process and to give that trust that this particular conversation you're going to have has got your undivided attention. Yeah, but I think it's also important to recognize that sometimes talking about performance, talking about the way you work, can be quite emotive, can bring up a lot of other issues, potentially some feedback for the line manager, but they weren't expecting as well and actually it's important to make time for that. So if the conversation does go in another way, if diaries are pressured, I would always say you know, we've got this right after, but I really want to continue this conversation. When's a good time for you?
Speaker 2:If you've got the time, great, sit there and listen is always my view yes, but if you haven't, then yeah, yeah, so I put, and that's why I think, when I sometimes you see people, managers that do back to back, to back one-to-ones, like what is that all about?
Speaker 3:I just think you will be drained by the end of the day. You'll be really drained and then that's not really fair on the people that you're seeing at the end of the day when you haven't got your energy levels. If you can space it out and diaries allow, that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and going from there. So, if you think about where you've seen really great appraisals happen, you said you've been on the receiving end of good ones and not so good ones. What has been the biggest difference, would you say, with the person, both people in that space where it's been a great appraisal? What have you seen?
Speaker 3:I think with the great appraisal there was a lot of taking my feedback, so a lot of coaching as we talked about, a lot of open questions to ask me how do I think I've performed? What have I particularly enjoyed? Not just looking at the list of objectives and actually talking more broadly about my role and then making time during that appraisal or that review to talk about development. So what do I want to work on, where do I want to go and how do I see myself possibly getting there? So it was a lot of feedback from me and then the line manager was able to feed in their opinions as well.
Speaker 3:Where I've had it, where it was not so good, was where it was very heavily numbers and target focused. I mean, that's probably a personal perspective of mine I'm not one for the numbers and the detail, but also it felt like I was just trying to make numbers on a page and actually I think being in education, being a teacher, being in the public sector, that is quite difficult. There are a certain number of targets that you have to hit, that your classes have to hit, yeah, and it can feel very much like you're just trying to tick those off at the same time. Yeah, I got you.
Speaker 2:And I suppose it's where, then, does the richness from the conversation? Because, as you said, if you do them well, they're just the best thing ever, aren't they? Yeah, because what do you get out of a great appraisal?
Speaker 3:I suppose it's a sense of pride to know if you have done something well, to actually be recognised for that. We talk a lot about performance-related pay, but actually what might be really meaningful to you is hearing that you've done a good job on something I think clarity I mentioned at the very beginning, rather than just drifting through your role naively thinking either you're doing really well or you're not. Some clarity around how you're actually performing. But also a bit of a roadmap. Not that everybody wants to get the next job up or the next promotion, but people want to know where they're going and how they're doing. So a bit of a roadmap for the next 12 months 18 months, however long you want to make it, and I suppose also a knowledge that you're not going to just do this again in 12 months' time, that you actually might have conversations sooner than that if anything's starting to go wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely All right as the case may be. We talked a lot about feedback and it is all based around feedback, but the relationship that you have with your direct report, or you know if you're the manager, and vice versa, how important is that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's really important. I talked a little bit earlier about having the safety and the trust to be able to have two-way feedback, and that's really, really key. And I think that's where the relationship that you have with your line manager comes in. If you feel like you are able to say I don't feel like I'm doing particularly well at this thing and you don't feel like there's going to be any really negative repercussions, but support for you, that's really really useful. But similarly, the safety to also tell your line manager if you're not getting the support that you need either from them. And that's where having a relationship that's quite open really works with these types of meetings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that can be quite scary, can't it Very, to give feedback to your manager. So how does a manager create the safe space that then that person is okay to do that? How do we do that?
Speaker 3:I think, by acknowledging their own mistakes in the first place. You know, if something has gone wrong, they say oh gosh, guys, that was me. You know, I'm human, we all make mistakes. I'm really sorry. I messed that bit up. Asking for feedback from the get go and making people feel like that's okay yeah, a bit of vulnerability, I suppose, to show that they're human too. You know, the same process applies to them and actually this is the only way it's going to work is with them being able to take on feedback from their direct reports.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, because I always love that as well, and you mentioned around that creating the safe space to do it, and there's always this debate goes on do you do it in an office? Do you walk and talk? Do you do it somewhere else? I mean, in your opinion, what works?
Speaker 3:I don't think there's a one size fits all approach. I think it's really down to that relationship that you have and how your particular line manager likes to work. You know, I don't mind at the moment, loves to go out and get some fresh air and some clarity and go for a walk. I love a notepad so for me, walking sometimes if I'm sitting down with my direct reporters is a bit, is a little bit hard, and I also love my coffee and I'm a bit worried about spilling it if I'm walking.
Speaker 3:That's a lot going on, I know it's a lot going on, so it's really down to the relationship you have. I know that we have some teams who love to do kind of a walking lunchtime and they do an update and a debrief on a walk because it's great for them, gets them out of the office, gets them some fresh air. Others, as I say, prefer to sit down with a lovely hot drink, stay in the warm. So it really is dependent upon your relationship with your line manager.
Speaker 2:So it's about again asking that individual. I do remember one story where somebody was actually giving a performance appraisal that wasn't necessarily a very good one for the individual and they went and walked it and that was like, okay, how did that go? It didn't go very well, as you can imagine, because the person walked off and didn't come back. So how do you, I suppose, have an awareness of what's right, what's wrong?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I suppose you've got to think about the messages that are being delivered. I think what's always key is to make sure you're not into a public space. So if you're in the office, somewhere's private, that you can have that discussion openly Again. If you're out walking, even more so, because you never know who you're going to bump into. And if you've got a more difficult message to deliver, you might prefer to be sat down somewhere. It might make it a little bit easier. You can maintain eye contact. You can really gauge how the person's feeling.
Speaker 2:It's quite hard when you're stood side by side and walking. Yeah, definitely, because that's yeah. I never forget that one. That was one that stood out. The person just never came back.
Speaker 2:It was like oh my goodness, yeah, that's not gone so well but that didn't go well at all and it had loads of repercussions. And I suppose one of the other things you come across a lot, probably Kerry, is when you inherit a team and then you are then the person responsible for their performance appraisals and looking after them. How do people get the best out of them? Because we've seen it work where somebody has inherited a team and they haven't necessarily been managed in the right way or their performance hasn't been managed and there's more troubling things going on than maybe that person expected. And then we had the other side where somebody has just been amazing and they don't want their manager to leave and they don't want a new manager. So how does somebody get through that in a way that still holds the space and the relationship if you've inherited a team?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's open and honest. Again, it's saying I'm you, I've got to take on some of the feedback that I've been given, but I'd really love to understand your point of view of how things have gone and how you're feeling with the current situation. And it can work both ways. You can have people that perform brilliantly and it's not necessarily been recognized before and, similarly, those that have drifted along being given a good rating, perhaps because a previous line manager didn't want to have a difficult conversation either, and that's quite hard. That's probably one of the hardest that we come across, and certainly not necessarily with my direct reports, but in teams that I've supported from an HR perspective. That's where the most difficult conversations happen, where there are issues that haven't perhaps been addressed before, and then it's down to someone new that has to address them.
Speaker 2:Okay, and that's really hard, isn't it?
Speaker 3:That's really, really tough because you can seem a bit like the bad wolf coming in and giving the difficult message, but I suppose it's slow steps to building trust that this is what I've noticed. How can I support you with that and constantly checking in so that that person doesn't feel like you know you're the new person attacking them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I suppose that flips to those that maybe have never had an appraisal at all before. And suddenly they have. Yeah, and suddenly it's come like on the agenda that the company, the organization is suddenly going to introduce this performance management approach. And and it always has that negative connotation, doesn't it? Whenever you meant performance management, people always go to the thinking what have I done wrong? But it's not necessarily how it should be.
Speaker 3:No people seem to associate the word performance with managing performances and managing someone out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:They always seem to associate performance with underperformance. I prefer to call them development conversations rather than performance, because you can cover how someone's performing in their role as well as what they might want to work on or need to work on at the same time, and I think that frames it in a slightly more positive light as well. Generally, though, when people hear managing performance, they always presume it's because something has gone wrong, rather than something is going right. Yeah, it do.
Speaker 2:And that always made me smile. It's like but don't you want to know how you're doing? You know and go from there good or bad. So what would be the key fundamentals to a great appraisal? Because, as you said earlier, there is no one size fits all, there is no right place to do it, wrong place to do it. But what would you say are some of the key fundamentals to having a good one-to-one conversation with somebody about their performance?
Speaker 3:So certainly time, as we were talking about earlier making the time and having the time to do it. I think encouraging two-way feedback is really, really key. I think ensuring that you have examples, particularly of good performance and perhaps not so great performance, because it can be really confronting in a performance review to be told that you're not performing without any sort of reason as to why. And if you're going to give those examples, either for underperformance or great performance, then provide a way forward or suggestion of a way forward, and get the employee to ask for their opinion on how they think that they might remedy this. People will be a lot more bought in to whatever that outcome is if they've had a chance to input to it yeah, yeah, such a good point, isn't it as well?
Speaker 2:and I think also that goes to how fluid is your performance appraisal system, because if people have been set an objective, because that's how they do and they've achieved it, it doesn't mean it's that's it, it you can, you could, and that sometimes happens. Well, that was on my objectives at the beginning of the year now you're asking me to do that.
Speaker 2:It's gone and then, it's like well, how do you, how do you navigate as a manager? I suppose your way through. Well, yeah, you did an amazing job and you've done it. And here's another one. You know for the rest of the year yeah, and I suppose it is a.
Speaker 3:You know I'm looking for stretch for you because I want to help you develop. You know what would be the next opportunity for you. Do you have capacity for, etc. Etc. So again, that that communication as to what they're looking for and what they can work on. But, being quite upfront and honest, this piece of work was done. That was absolutely brilliant. What's the next thing you would like to tackle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and going from there and then supporting them to do that as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, to be able to do it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So there definitely isn't one size fits all. So if there was some words of wisdom you would pass on to our listeners, whether they are in an appraisal it's their appraisal that's happening, or they are running the appraisal or the performance review. What would be your words of wisdom, for both sides, I suppose?
Speaker 3:I suppose it's keep an open mind. If you've had those conversations throughout the year, it shouldn't be a surprise. That would be the ideal scenario that no one goes into that discussion bringing up or discussing something that's not been touched upon before. Yeah, that would be the ideal scenario. If that is the case, then keeping an open mind as to what is to come and approaching it, I suppose, with a bit of a growth mindset for both as to okay, this was great, this was not so great. What's going to be the way forward for us both?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I love it, and I suppose that means there has to also be quite a level of self-awareness on both parts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that can be the difficult bit, particularly around continuous feedback and employee-led feedback. That can be quite hard sometimes because people don't always want to talk about themselves and you get people doing all sorts of different things in that situation because it's uncomfortable for them. Either they'll say everything's great, because they don't feel safe to say it's not, or they feel like they have to go the other way and be extremely modest and extremely humble, just in case something's wrong that they haven't caught, and so they don't actually sing their own praises either. And it's about those coaching questions to make them feel comfortable that they can actually put forward their true opinion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that, I love that. So if there was a call to action from you for all those people out there, what would be the one call to action? You said open mind, two way feedback, great communication, building trust relationships. If you could rewrite the rule book around managing performance and and if you like taking a rebel approach to performance management. What rebellion would you bring in?
Speaker 3:The managing performance is not once a year. That would be my tagline, I suppose Brilliant. It is not a once a year exercise. It is a continual progress or an evolution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I love that. I love that as we move forward in the universe, it continually evolves and we have to evolve with it, right? Yes, definitely, as we get stuck behind. Yeah, going from there, kerry, I mean, we could chat about this forever because it's such an important topic and I think it's certainly in my experience forever because it's such an important topic and I think it's certainly in my experience, maybe in yours this was always the one that new managers dreaded, existing managers dreaded at times.
Speaker 2:There was a handful that loved it, because they do it the right way anyway, and I always think it's such an important topic to say it's a conversation, right, and build that relationship with them. So, you know, it's been an absolute delight to speak to you about this. We have to get you back and talk some more, um, especially around the feedback piece, because you know that is what will unlock everybody, won't it? So, yes, yeah, we'll have you back to talk about how do we give great feedback to people and receive it and hear it and do all that lovely stuff with it. But how would, if they wanted to find out more about you, or you know what you're doing at the moment, how can people find you?
Speaker 3:I'm on LinkedIn. I'm more than happy to get messages, calls. Yep, come find me more than happy to chat.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I love that. We make sure that everybody knows where you are and where they can reach you from that. I mean, kerry, it's been a real delight to speak to you around this, because it's one of those topics that is a bit of a Marmite topic, isn't it, and I think we just need to just cut through all of that and make it as normalised as possible. It's just a conversation between two people, isn't it?
Speaker 3:That's the fundamental of the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, isn't it? Well, I want to say a massive thank you. It's been good to see you and we look forward to having you back on another one. But thank you for your time, kerry. Thank you, jess, take care. So, laura, what did you think about performance appraisals?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so good to hear Kerry.
Speaker 3:It is isn't it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, it's so good to hear. Well, as always, she just speaks so articulately and so intelligently about you know, this real big topic and there's so much change in society at the moment. You know trading is, depending on what industry you're in, might be really tough trading conditions at the moment, and what does that then mean to keep your people motivated, performance focused and doing it in the right way? So I just really love her approach about a human first approach to managing performance, because you can't not talk about performance, because actually a performance conversation is a motivating one Absolutely. What are the expectations? Where are we heading? What does that mean to set me up for success? So I loved it. How about you? What did you value from it?
Speaker 2:I mean it was like music to my ears because we had a good conversation about our take on performance appraisals and I always said I never did them in my HR days.
Speaker 1:Such a rebel alliance.
Speaker 2:I know it's like what and because I had had conversations throughout the year, so it was really interesting and we were talking about the pros and cons and what I loved was like music to my ears was the fact that it's all about taking that coaching approach to it, and that, for me, in a nutshell, was it. It's a conversation which is all about the other person and she positions it really well about that two-way conversation, feedback, being able to understand people, get to know them, build the relationship, so trust is built.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love it. So thank you, kerry, a joy to have your words of wisdom there. Yeah, so I guess my share. The secret would be, if you've got a friend that works in HR or anything to do with the people management aspect of stuff in the people team, get them to have a listen to this, because sometimes all it takes is listening to someone else's experience. It might be a completely different industry that carries in to you, but actually listening and being able to transfer wisdom across into yours, you can sort of get some change happening, just one step at a time.
Speaker 2:Definitely, yeah, definitely. My call to action would be you know, get to know your people well and prep for that. It's just it's such an important conversation to be having. Recognizing one size doesn't fit all, so your ability to adapt to that individual is super important. And being able to, if you master the techniques of great questions and observations, a bit like Yoda, and then dropping that observational feedback in as well, I think, yeah, do yourself a favour and get yourself in the right space to do it. That would be my call to action.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wonderful, love it. So, Devs, this was the fourth in our five-part Star Wars inspired focus.
Speaker 2:I can't believe we're nearly coming to the end. I know.
Speaker 1:Looking at what can we learn from a galaxy far, far away. In honour of May, the 4th day, so the time of recording is in the month of May. Yeah, looking forward to our final one next week, and that is you and I in the Millennium Falcon cockpit together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, With Chewy.
Speaker 1:With Chewy. What would Chewy do I?
Speaker 2:can't make that noise.
Speaker 1:No, no, we'd probably tear your arm off if you were beating at cards. Exactly Cheating at cards, but we're going to be looking at battling Death Star workplace dynamics. I mean the fun we're going to have with this we are. So, yeah, join us for that one, and looking forward to that Debs. In the meantime, have a fantastic week you too. Look after yourself. May it be full of Rebel Alliance positive, feel good moments.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that. I can't wait, but have a good one.
Speaker 1:Oh, you too Take care, love you.
Speaker 2:Bye.
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