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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
239. Pride Month - Am I Safe to Be Me?
In the first episode of our special 5-part Secrets From a Coach series for Pride Month, we’re joined by the insightful Steph Constantinides to explore how inclusion can become part of everyday workplace experiences.
Steph shares personal reflections on what it means to navigate work environments where even the simplest introductions can involve careful risk assessments about self-disclosure. She invites us to consider how small actions—like welcoming a new colleague with warm curiosity instead of invasive questioning—can foster genuine belonging.
With calm wisdom and practical insight, Steph helps us understand the moments that can transform a workplace into a safe and affirming space. Her stories highlight the power of empathy, reassurance, and intentional connection.
Join the conversation on Instagram @secretsfromacoach, where we’re inviting listeners to share their own ‘creating safe moments’ stories.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training Debs.
Speaker 2:Laura, are you all right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm doing well. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm all right actually. Yeah, not too bad Keeping busy and juggling loads of different things. So, as always, me and the NHS are having fun at the moment. Oh, wonderful.
Speaker 1:Well, smile, wave, keep breathing, and that's really one of the reasons why we enjoy so much recording these podcast episodes, because it's that little moment in what might be quite a hectic phase of life to take a moment out for you, to invest in your continuing professional development. And we are super thrilled to be focusing in this month of June and we're calling this Taking Pride and what does it mean to bring everyday pride values to life? And we have got a selection of amazing guests and what we wanted to take is a calm, educational approach in the spirit of curiosity and learning. What does it mean? Just taking a couple of different angles around what it means to bring pride values to life. When we were sort of chatting in the prep for this mini -series, I think we were sort of recognising there's so much sensationalism out there. So, yeah, what's your hope that we achieve in this mini-series?
Speaker 2:I think my hope is that there's a better understanding and a better appreciation and an awareness to embrace difference, and that's okay. And if you're not sure, ask and be curious, but come from a kind hearted place of nurturing care, rather than coming from a judgmental place. Rather than coming from a judgmental place, that would be my hope, because I know from the conversations we've been having Laura so far, we're learning as we go as well, which is some stuff that we didn't realise. So it's just the same thing. None of us know everything, but my hope is that it will just raise the awareness.
Speaker 1:Beautifully put and in the spirit of.
Speaker 1:One of our mottos is every day is school day, and you know what does that mean? To be able to kind of learn from, maybe, some of these differences, because it's not going away, it's part of the modern day workplace and, you know, it's what keeps us human, that kind of difference and that variety. So we're going to invite you at the end to have a think about what might be a photo or a scenario that you would like to share that then could be considered one of these kind of pride moments, because I think what's really inspiring is when people are able to share practical examples of some of these great things in in um that actually happen every day, because the news will share us lots of sensational stuff about the problems and challenges associated with this world of LGBTQIA+. Have I said it right, debs?
Speaker 1:Yes, I think you have.
Speaker 2:Laura, I think you've caught it. Yeah, yes, definitely.
Speaker 1:And what we're going to be looking at is what's the opportunity and what does that mean day by day. So I'm super excited, debs, to introduce our first guest in this miniseries, and this is the quite simply amazing Steph Constantinides. So I'll let her introduce herself. Okay, so I'm absolutely delighted to be joined in the studio by yourself, steph. How wonderful to be creating this opportunity and talking about opportunities to bring pride values to everyday work life. So, before I start asking you some sort of questions around this area, tell us a bit about yourself and your background.
Speaker 3:Yeah, first of all, amazing to be here. Thank you for the invite, great way to finish off the week. And yeah, a bit about me. I going real, real way way back. Uh went from ballet to football, so that kind of gives you an insight about uh the world. When I started as a child, uh, skirts to shorts, you know that kind of thing standard. But as I navigate the adult world, my world is largely around working in L&D for corporate companies from Heathrow to Deliveroo to, most recently, mars. So within those roles, every single time I've made sure that I'm in the space of ED&I inclusivity and actually what that means for people in the workplace and obviously their lives as well, because it's not just about the workplace.
Speaker 1:Wow, thank you. I'm just imagining you now in a little tutu, oh, and then your little shorts. Either way you were getting your legs out. Both those hobbies. Oh, it's a joy to have you on. So I'd love to hear from you what, at the moment, are some of your areas of passion around this space, and then we can kind of delve a little bit deeper and then you can give us sort of more insights. So, in terms of that ED&I space, as you said, what are some areas that you feel really passionate about?
Speaker 3:For me it goes on a more holistic kind of passion, and for me it's almost just allowing people that are in the business or, like I said, connected to the business in some way, to just thrive by being themselves. In loads of topics you'll hear about authenticity or a sense of belonging, and Edie and I plays a part in that. Whether we're talking about it or not, it really does so. For me, the passion in this space is about how do we enable and equip people to feel safe, to be themselves, because ultimately, when you look at the workplace, that leads to productivity retention, business goal alignment. It leads to everything good. There's not a bad drawback to this. So, quite simply, my passion is to enable people to be themselves by either me being in a space, me talking to others, me being a mentor, me coaching people in that space, or with that challenge that they're going through in, whether it be identity or external factors. Yeah, that's kind of where I am at the moment. Oh, I love it.
Speaker 1:What has been some of the feedback you've received from people that you've supported and mentored? That demonstrates to you the impact that's had on them demonstrates to you the impact that's had on them.
Speaker 3:This is a near and far question I can go to from holding my partner's hand in a London underground waiting for a tube and some young female walks up to me and says just by you doing what you're doing right now, you've given me the confidence to go and like be myself. And it was incredible, incredible. I didn't know this person, they were just walking along in the tube, but just by me holding my partner's hand at the time, it made an impact to someone's day. That's kind of not intentional. At the time it was just me holding my my partner's hand.
Speaker 3:But then, when you scale it into a more intentional space Me mentoring people in the business who are struggling with their own identity not even telling others, but struggling with themselves and of course I've been through that I've thought, no, I don't want to deal with this, I'll deal with it when I'm really old, so I can live a good life and not be challenged in that way. So I think the people that I've mentored, who have struggled with their identities, have gone on to, of course, use me as a sounding board, but have gone on to open their you know honesty box up and live the life that they know they want to, but they're too afraid to do that, and for me that's I mean, that's a gift. You can't buy that for Christmas, can you?
Speaker 1:So what would be useful for me to have in mind? So let's say I'm welcoming a new person onto my team and it's the first 90 days of them in role. What might be some things that actually it might not be on my radar to consider but just by hearing some thoughts from you of what you've experienced yourself and heard from other people experiencing probably should be on my radar if I wanted to be intentionally doing good in my role, and not necessarily the manager, but as a good colleague. So what would be some things that you think actually, if they're not on my radar, it's probably quite useful for them to be put on my radar.
Speaker 3:I guess the first thing I'd say is a new person adds a new dynamic, right? And so my first suggestion would be with a new person, what kind of team culture do you want to have? Because the culture will always change, it's forever changing. But with a new person, what kind of team culture do you want to have? Because the culture will always change, it's forever changing. But with a new person in the mix, it's going to change again. Right, and so when I think about either a colleague or a manager, what they, what they should be thinking about, it's not telling the new person, right, right, this is the culture, this is how we operate. It's asking them first how do they see a positive culture?
Speaker 3:Because, from what I've understood throughout my time in different organizations, the cultures that thrive are the ones that are created by the people. You can't tell people what the culture is and hope that they adopt it. Yeah, of course you can. There's no such way, just can't, sorry. You can, but the effectiveness of that I don't believe can be as strong as when you allow the people to make the culture. Yes, you're aligned to goals in the organization, but the culture yes, you're aligned to goals in the organization, but the culture, the heart of that team comes from the people. So why wouldn't you start with the people? That would be my pivot to not what I can do, but what I can enable for the new person coming in. And then, likewise, the current people almost collaborate in understanding, because we all need to understand from a new perspective and a current.
Speaker 1:Makes total sense. Yeah, total sense. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, about how the challenges that can happen when you're just asked to describe yourself so interestingly, because I have had some people disclose along. So I've been running and writing and designing workshops and training courses since the year 2000. So I've got 25 years under my belt of seeing all the little things that you think, oh, I don't think I should have said that or oh, I'm sort of spotting. You've had an impact and I know us as a team and yourselves have got years between us of sort of being there running meeting spaces and facilitating, hopefully, some good sessions.
Speaker 1:One of the things I have learned over the years is just even asking people about have you got children or how many children have you got? I have absolutely learned because people have disclosed various things. To me it doesn't actually need to be on the table as part of an identifier, because that is a hugely emotive topic and it might feel like an easy breezy topic for one person but for someone else it might completely disrupt their ability to concentrate for the day because it's just been a question that's kind of ruffled them. So that's certainly something that I have learned in that I, you know.
Speaker 1:Question number two, after what's your name, is have you got any children? I just know that is not the type of thing to blurt out because whether it's intentional or not, and the other person might not let you know, it actually might break that rapport in that moment and it gets in the way of that sort of trust building. What are some other things that maybe you've learned along the way that might be useful to share about, even in the way that we have those early interactions with new colleagues and asking questions? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because, you know, every day is school day and I just think it's fascinating. Sometimes we don't realise the impact we're having on what one person might feel is a very bland question but for someone else actually has a real impact.
Speaker 3:I mean, there's so much to unpack in that. I think the first thing that comes to mind is something that a current organisation done was for a get to know each other incredible online technology tool. Everyone's around the world, so we couldn't meet up in person, but one of the first things we did was we used mural. Right, oh, yes, I've heard of mural. Yes, yeah, incredible tool. I really really rate the tool.
Speaker 3:But essentially it was this template and there were 12 houses, 2d houses on and basically in different rooms of the house. Just picture like cut in half, like a doll's house, just picture like cut in half, like a doll's house, not a doll cut in half. And then in different rooms there were different questions. So, what book are you reading right now? What's your passion? What do you want to have in your garden? How would you? What would you put on this shelf?
Speaker 3:And it was really wonderful because it was up for interpretation, and so I guess one of the things I'm thinking about is, instead of those direct questions that maybe we sometimes gravitate towards because it's maybe ingrained in us from a young age and generations before, I guess I'd Again flip that to have a more holistic view of what somebody values in their life and allow them. So, for example, one of the people who was sharing their house, they had pictures of their kids and, for example, when you look at me, this is a topic that many people talk about Like you just mentioned, I don't want kids and there were no kids in my house and actually that's just the way I like it, and there won't be kids in my house going forward because that's by design. Again, that's a massive topic. Oh why? Why don't you want kids, dev? Like is there? No, I just don't want kids.
Speaker 3:Ok, but I digress. So it's just really nice because you can put what you want on A and what you feel comfortable, which is, for me, intentionality behind the question or the task. You want people to feel comfortable, to feel safe in order to give information or share what they want to share, order to give information or share what they want to share. To do that, that doesn't come from you asking a direct question that comes in the way of hey, this is what we're offering, you decide, you decide the strength that you want to go to or the. You know it's not a one size fits all question and answer, so don't make it one.
Speaker 1:Love that as I was listening to you talk. So don't make it one love that. As I was listening to you talk, I was thinking right. So is it maybe about asking questions with the intention of curiosity and learning about that other person, rather than asking questions with the intention to be nosy and judge?
Speaker 3:love that. Yeah, you said it in 10 seconds.
Speaker 1:I said in 90 seconds yes, if I really want to do a doll's house now, then I'm going to have a great big jigsaw sitting on that kitchen table.
Speaker 3:I know it, I know whose house that is.
Speaker 1:I don't know what's happened to me, Steph. Is it a Thursday? Yeah, it's even starting to come out on Wednesday nights now.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness so in terms of sort of some of those everyday kind of moments. So our whole premise of Secret Summer Coach Debs and I, you know, and the team right from the start, was about what can we all learn in this rapidly evolving landscape of work where, you know, our parents weren't talking about things like this, like what? How do we sort of keep up and what does that mean to be sort of forever evolving? Where might there be some unexpected moments of truth where this stuff comes out? So if the pride values, so first of all, maybe, what do you consider are some core pride values that absolutely have a place in every workplace? And then where might there be some moments of truth where that could sort of get tested?
Speaker 3:The first one off the bat for me is all about company policies. If I'm going to be honest, for me, pride values or any kind of inclusivity values should be front and centre within policies. What are we doing for the LGBTQ plus community, for example, in terms of our health benefits? Do they include hormone therapy or same-sex fertility support, for example? And then I would say another one is and this is something that I've personally experienced is what are your uniform standards? Now, this sounds really bizarre, but if you're in an organization that has a uniform standard guidelines, you know whatever you want to call it. For me and I've felt the harsher end of this, but for me it's really important that organizations look at their uniform policies. Are they inclusive? And this small, what many would say is a small tweak or a small thought, could be the differentiator between someone feeling comfortable at work and someone feeling like they don't belong and that their company doesn't support them. I've worked in companies where, in the uniform policy, females got this and males got this, and the only way that you could bypass that was to change your gender on the system or get your male counterparts to order their uniform and hand it over to you, and the problem with that is everyone gets an allowance, so you're basically stealing it from that person. So you had to like buddy up real good so you could get a uniform that worked for you. Now I'm sure many uniform policies in organizations are inclusive, but one thing that I would urge companies to take a look at work with their LGBTQ plus, erg or resource group, whatever resource group they have just to sense, check it Like does this alienate a population within your organization and what changes I would say a small could you add to just alleviate that pressure? To just alleviate that pressure. Sometimes it's hard enough being in that LGBTQ plus community. We don't need things that could be simple, more complicated. So that's what I'd say. And then the other thing I just want to say to that is I'll speak for myself.
Speaker 3:Coming out is never over. It never stops. So I had a question last year what's your coming out story? I don't know if you've ever heard that, but I get it quite a lot. What's your coming out story, steph? And my first question back is which one do you want to hear? Which one? The one where I'm open to myself? The one where I verbalize it for the first time to somebody? The one where I have to come out to my GP because they're asking questions and I'm like, no, I really don't need that, you need to trust me. Or the one that I have to come out to with a financial advisor or my new team or a new friend because they're asking about my boyfriend, like it never stops.
Speaker 3:Coming out is never over, and sometimes and again I speak for myself, depending on my energy levels or what I'm gauging from other people it can be scary. Sometimes I don't always feel like I have my armour on. You know, when you're not sure about the environment you're going into and you need to put on that invisible armour just in case anything comes your way, that is a bit negative. Sometimes I don't have the energy to put that armour on, and so I answer in a very neutral way Is that me? No, but sometimes I'm not. I'm not. I don't want to say strong enough, but sometimes I don't have the energy to have that conversation.
Speaker 3:And so and I remember this really, really clearly I was working with someone in a previous organization. It was me and this guy. He was six foot something and we were going, we were on a job together for just the two of us and he asked me about my relationship. And you know I did this instant risk assessment okay, because I've been in really dodgy situations in London and all that sort of stuff and I did a risk assessment and I thought I'm going to lie. I'm going to lie because we're on our own.
Speaker 3:He's six foot. Yes, I've done kickboxing and I'm four or five belts in, but I've probably run quicker than him as well. But I don't have the energy for this and maybe I'll never see him again, so what does it matter? Anyway, I was neutral. No, I wasn't neutral. I said I had a boyfriend.
Speaker 3:I basically told the story but just made it male. Anyway, we ended up working together again and he asked me about the boyfriend and I said listen, I've got to tell you that that was a lie. The boy's a girl, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, he said why did you lie? Like why, just out of curiosity? And I told him, I said you know, I don't know you, I didn't you know, it kind of didn't matter. But also I had to protect me in that situation. It's the first time I've met you. You know, I don't know your beliefs or your what. So you know, I had to kind of protect me first. And he said you know that I feel really bad because you basically hid what was like important to you. And I said it's not on you, I did it for me, I didn't do it for you. But now I feel bad because I know I've lied.
Speaker 3:And so there's this dance that people do, that I've done my whole life. Is that quick risk assessment? Do I have the energy and, quite honestly, do I want to share this part of me with this person, or do I have to sometimes? So I would say, give people a little bit of grace. They might not reveal for the first time that they've met you. Hey, I'm gay. I've been gay for, you know, 17 years and I ride the flag on a Saturday. I don't know like, just give people a bit of grace and they will, if they want to tell people their story when they're comfortable. And again it comes back to how, how safe is that space?
Speaker 1:wow, oh, my god, you are. Oh, do you know what I've always loved working with you? Steph constantinides, uh, first off, your surname is so satisfying to say, which is why it's not just steph, it's steph constantinides, but your ability to articulate these moments are just. You just got such a gift at doing that and I want to build on that gift If there were some takeaways that you would like to sort of leave us with. So, thinking about the next five years, so this has been a shape-shifting decade. We're at the midway point when you think about the next sort of five years, getting us towards 2030, what are some challenges on the horizon around this space and what are our opportunities that you know the good people that want to do as best that they can by other humans can be doing to do well around this.
Speaker 3:It's a really good question and I think I'm not going to bring the finer details in. We've seen governments change their stance on LGBTQ plus rights in plus rights in the uk, in other countries around the world and, quite honestly, some organizations are following suit. You can see it in the news, you can see it in the statistics where the uk stand, for example, in terms of their policies and and legal stand-ins for the LGBTQ plus community. And so what I'd say for today, for the next I think you said five years, right For the next five years, is I'd say that now, with such, I feel like we've gone a couple of steps back, if I'm honest, and that's scary.
Speaker 3:It's scary on many levels, and the actions that have been taken are marginalising a marginalised community, and what I would say is as a human, quite often we have more power than we think we do. We have the ability to change someone's day in a heartbeat. Case in point, I was holding hands in the tube and that young female came up to me and said hey, you changed my day, and so what I would say is any micro action that you can do small, medium, big, it doesn't matter to either shine a light on something that doesn't look or sound right, for example, uniform standards, or if you've heard someone and they've said something inappropriate, and I've said this, I think, on LinkedIn. It doesn't matter who it is, from CEO to your colleague on the left or right. It's not okay and hierarchy doesn't play a role in this. So I would say, the things that we have to do from today for the next however many years is we have to act as an individual.
Speaker 3:What is in my span of control? How can I support if I'm in the community? How can I support the rest of my community? And if I just want to learn more, if I'm not part of the LGBT community, can I support them? How can I make my space more aware? And also, how can we combine the two? They don't need to sit separately. Surely we're stronger as a unit, and that is, I mean, pride month is, all you know, people in the LGBTQ plus community coming together, showing their strengths, showing the greatness of those individuals. But within that are many allies, many, many allies, but we should be making safe things happen, because ultimately, that then leads to allowing people to be themselves. Coming back to it full circle. Everybody wins.
Speaker 1:Steph, next time we're standing on a train platform, can I hold your hand please? Can I hug you? I want to hold her hand.
Speaker 3:Are you going to sing?
Speaker 1:No, definitely not, my God. Our one listener over in Latvia will definitely not subscribe. Love it, oh, Steph. It's been an absolute joy being in conversation with you, Debs, and I always end with a share the secret and a call to action. I'd love to hear from your thoughts just to add that into the mix for someone that is listening in and thinking oh, do you know? It's really got me thinking what would be one call to action and who do you think would be someone in someone's family or work network that you would want to be reaching out to? So who do you want to be influencing as a result of your really fantastic insights on this conversation? So call to action and share the secret.
Speaker 3:I would love to be influencing people who are maybe struggling because it's not easy, regardless of the age you are or the part of whatever part of your life you're in. They're the people that just need a little bit of extra support, and sometimes no one would know, and so that struggle on the inside when you're trying to navigate life, is really bloody hard. So I would hope that if there is anyone who's listening to this that maybe is struggling or has never even thought about it, but it's, there's a seed, and I've had that seed. Like I get it, and I would just urge talk to someone that you trust. Start there. Maybe don't start with AI, because I mean, we embedded the information in an AI. Don't even get me started on that.
Speaker 3:For once, let's not start with AI, and my call to action is whether you're in the workplace or otherwise, how can you create an environment made by the people In a friend group, in your team, in your wider team? How can you start with just curiosity before the nosiness part? Maybe even just get rid of nosiness. We don't need that anymore. It doesn't serve anybody and actually sometimes it makes people feel awkward and then you never get to the curiosity part because they've shut their shutters. Stay curious and be kind. My God, there's so many species in the world and I'm pretty sure that humans are the only ones that discriminate world, and I'm pretty sure that humans are the only ones that discriminate. Just be nice, that's it. And that is for free. You don't need a degree, you don't need a course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Oh, steph, it's been a joy being in conversation with you. Thank you so much for your time and your just brilliant way to articulate the truth in such a clear way and in an empowering way as well, because there's always something that we can then do to make things a bit better. So, as we hold hands, walking off into the sunset to sit down with my jigsaw yes, you can touch my jigsaw, it's a privilege, absolutely I feel hugely inspired. So, thank you so much, and the organization you're currently with, my goodness, they're lucky to have you. So, uh, yeah, enjoy your next step and adventure. Thank you so much, darling, thank you thanks, laura.
Speaker 3:It's been really cool, so thanks for having me pleasure oh my god law, how cool, how cool was that?
Speaker 1:is it she an absolute dream?
Speaker 2:yeah, her voice. I love listening to what she has to say and the way she connects it all and started at at one point, went on the journey around and then ended up back at the point that she started with. I thought it was just, it was just amazing. I really enjoyed listening to what she had to say, with some real key moments that sort of came through on that.
Speaker 1:It was absolutely a moment of a jolt of learning that I had when she was saying about how you know, every day there might be a coming out story. Yes, Does she feel safe? What was the bit that you liked? It was about the armour.
Speaker 2:Armour. I love, yeah, I love that armor that she puts um, sometimes we'll put an armor on because she's not sure. And she said, I think she puts her armor in inverted commas just in case, um, she needs to protect herself because she's not aware of the people that she's with or the person that she's talking to or working alongside, because she doesn't know them and they don't know her. So so I just thought it was really interesting that she's always have this level of alertness, I suppose, and a level of awareness of her own safety, and I think, yeah, that was the bit that really shook me, really, because sometimes you just walk in, don't even give that a second thought, and yet, if you're coming from the queer community, I think, that awareness to keep yourself safe I hadn't realised just how heightened it was, and I love what she had to say about that as well.
Speaker 1:And some really practical examples of what slight tweak could make all the difference to someone in that moment. So you're going to take us through some call to action. I am so in the spirit of learning and kind of progressing. These things and some of these things might feel quite complicated and enormous, but it's those everyday actions that can make a difference and move things on. And then I'll do my share, the secret, and then we'll, yeah, kind of hopefully we've had an opportunity to do a bit of learning and then think for the week ahead actually, what does that mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely so. My share the secret, going back to what you said right at the beginning, would be to share with us on we thought we'd put it on our Instagram page, so we'd ask you to upload it onto our Instagram page, which is at secrets from a coach, all one word your moment. So share with us your moment, your proud pride moment, where you felt safe to be you and you felt like you didn't have to put the armour up, like Steph was talking about. So that would be my share the secret Share with us your pride moments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, marvellous. And then my call to action. So we're sort of swapping at the moment. My call to action would be who do you know in your life, whether it's your work network or your friendship network, who has the type of role or the type of everyday experience where they do a lot of meeting and greeting and working, maybe with the general public? Get them to listen to this, because I think that example that Steph gave about that icebreaker with the house- yes, that was good.
Speaker 1:That's definitely something I'm going to take on forward, because part of our role is creating environments where people meet and greet and have to introduce themselves, and it's just and it's going to enable me to just level up that a little bit more and who knows, then, the positive impact that could have.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, if you know someone else who has a role that involves lots of introducing and connecting people inductions, orientation meetings, where they've got the type of role where they're asking someone else to tell them information, get them to have a listen to this because it just again, might just add a little bit more to their toolkit so we can bring these everyday pride values to life. Yeah, brilliant. So, debs, that was the first in our five-part focus because, even though there's only four Fridays in this month, we're going to do a bonus fifth episode because I think there's just so much learning we're going to take from this. We're going to kind of bring that all together and give us some handy practical takeaways after we've listened to all of our four guests. So I'm looking forward to next week, debs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too, laura, looking forward to it for sure. So, in the meantime, have a really good week and I'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 1:See you on the other side, and big thanks to you, steph, for giving us so much learning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, loved it, have a great week Debs. Love you bye. Love you bye.
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