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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
240. An Everyday Guide to Navigating Gender Complexities
In the second episode of our Taking Pride series, we explore the evolving language around gender identity and how greater understanding can lead to everyday moments of inclusion.
We’re joined by the thoughtful and engaging Olly, who shares his lived experience of identifying as a Demi-Boy and what that means in practice—offering a personal perspective that brings clarity and depth to a term many are still learning about.
This episode invites listeners to reflect on their own learning journeys and to approach gender terminology with calm curiosity rather than fear of getting it wrong. We discuss how open-minded conversations and small shifts in language can create space for everyone to feel seen and respected.
Have you had an “aha—I get it now” moment around gender identity or language? Share it with us on Instagram @secretsfromacoach to inspire others and grow a culture of learning and inclusion.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, you all right? Yeah, I am buzzing.
Speaker 2:Are you Tell me why you're buzzing?
Speaker 1:Because it's just an opportunity to learn, and learning is just such a positive thing that you can do, particularly through times of transformation and change, because it just reminds you that every day is school day. Yeah, and sometimes the things that might frustrate us or worry us, it's it's where that might be that lack of familiarity and that lack of certainty and, yeah, and you know, if you're unsure about something then you're really vulnerable to just hearing all the drama and all the hysteria that's out there. And I think one of the joys about doing this podcast is it's just an easy way to tool up on some of these new languages and these new ways of looking at things. So I'm super excited about this week's guest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, me too. I had the pleasure of chatting with Ollie Cooper, who is an absolutely dynamic and versatile professional who has a really strong foundation from the education sector and now in operational readiness and working across change management and process coordination. And what I loved when we talked to Ollie was his ability to just bring alive and I felt like I was in a classroom, which is a good thing because I wanted to learn, and I just love the way that he positively reframed things. So shall we take a listen to what he had to tell us? Laure, hello everybody, what an amazing month we have ahead of. What we're going to be doing with you in the month of June.
Speaker 2:Obviously, the month of June is very well known as being Pride, and we're going to explore that amazing world around.
Speaker 2:What does that actually mean?
Speaker 2:So we're going to bring together different people across different scopes of the Pride community to be able to talk to us about what it means for them, their journey, how they can navigate in the professional space, what's working, what hasn't worked, what are some of their experiences, so that we can actually bring to life people's stories in a way that is right from the horse's mouth, as we like to talk about it and then that's what we've got going on for this month. So, as you can see, I'm joined by Oli. Hello, oli, I'll get you to introduce yourself in a moment. We wanted him to come on our podcast for this month because we believe that he can offer us an amazing richness and insight into identity, personal growth and navigating professional spaces as somebody who identifies as a demiboy and queer, demy Boy and Quit. And then, given Ollie's professional background, which he'll tell us a little bit about, along with his lived experience, we can absolutely have a great conversation about this. So, ollie, tell our listeners a little bit about you and how you've ended up chatting to us.
Speaker 3:Of course, hello everyone. As Deb's introduced me, I'm Ollie, I use the pronouns he, they, and I already got a glowing introduction from you, debs. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:I feel already cheeped and excited. But yeah, I am an LGBTQ plus professional and what that kind of means to me has been a very varied journey and today I was going to kind of talk a little bit about the process that I've kind of been on in terms of self-identification and the the process that I've kind of been on in terms of self-identification and the education journey that I've been on for a little bit of context and because of, probably, the language that I use and you may even notice with some of the scripts that I use, I was a secondary school teacher for eight years working, so there is a degree of the language that I will use and I'll still fall into certain tropes.
Speaker 1:I think as I speak, so you'll probably pick up on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, very much. It's learned scripts, that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3:So yeah, so I was a secondary school teacher for eight years. I went through a growth process through around that. There was lots of work that I did that we'll hopefully discuss around through this conversation. And now I've changed my career path entirely. I've walked away from the education sector and I've started a new role working as and get ready for this.
Speaker 2:I'm ready.
Speaker 3:I'm ready. I'm an implementation and process coordinator. Okay, when I applied for that role, I didn't necessarily know what it meant either. I'm four months in and I'm not still 100% sure how that title really aligns with my work. But what I will say is I'm very much enjoying my time working for the company I'm working for, so it's a big, big positive change at the moment.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that's amazing. And I think when you have a job title that you just apply for, you go, what am am I doing?
Speaker 2:and then you get into it and then you realize, oh my god, this is so cool, yeah but, what I love is the fact that you've had, um, you know the experience in the education sector as well, so you know being able to bring over your experiences from them into a very different environment. It must be fascinating to do. But before we sort of go into that in a little bit more detail, as you you alluded to I love that Can you share with us your journey of coming into your identity as a demiboy and queer? For us and for those listeners that may go, what are we talking about? It would be really helpful if you can just expand on that for us.
Speaker 3:Of course, yeah, yeah. So I identify as a demiboy and my sexuality is queer, and that whole journey to me has been a lot of learning. And it's certainly when you look at people's histories and their coming out stories and things like that. Mine is not. It didn't happen in school, it was much later in my life, really, sort of only 10 years ago or so, in which a lot of it I owe around to my partner, who I'm still with at the moment KP.
Speaker 3:They're non-binary and when I first met them I had never I've been raised in a very heteronormative environment, and so it wasn't until I sort of met and involved myself in a community of different genders and sexualities that I actually then started to have those kind of conversations.
Speaker 3:And it was amazing because it opened up this, this beautiful new kind of space and understanding of the social construct around me. From then on, the first thing we kind of looked at was, because my partner is non-binary. I usually saw myself as heterosexual, but if they're non-binary then I am erasing their sexuality by saying that, oh, I'm straight, or something like that. So it then opened up this conversation where it's like oh okay, so let's look at other language around this, and we kind of both came onto this idea of being queer because, although it's a term that has been reclaimed by the community in itself, because it was obviously quite, it was used as a slur and um yeah I think now it's more of a really like umbrella term which sits under lots of different things, and I think that with questioning and with folks that are more sexuality fluid, it kind of works quite nicely to kind of give this like I'm not conforming to what society and the social construct is kind of suggesting I should.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm quite happy just sitting under this umbrella term. Nice, and I feel like that's. That's kind of the case for me. Yeah, because sexuality is such a spectrum. In the way I see it, it kind of works as a definition for me and the other side of it with, with regards to being a demiboy, as I said, I grew up in very cis, white, male kind of environment and it wasn't.
Speaker 3:Until you then start to do that education and that research, you go, oh, gender is a spectrum, who'd have thought it? And then you start to look at the difference of like expression and romantic interest and sexuality and how they're all separate and and that can define a person in different ways. And then I go actually, yeah, I, I enjoy painting my nails, um, because that's something that, although it's generally considered more of a feminine expression, it's something that brings me a lot of joy. Same with makeup and things like that. It generally considered feminine sort of expression. But I really enjoy it and so when you look at the definitions behind the term demi boy, what that kind of refers to is majority of the time you feel masculine and I'm more associate with that male sort of output and how in which I view myself.
Speaker 3:But because I don't 100%, it kind of fits into this idea of demi. So I'm not all the time going to be like that. I kind of shift and change with how I'm feeling and how I'm expressing that day. So I think it fits with how I, who I am as a person and that that it's nice to a label. Sometimes it makes you feel part of the community. I know it can be harmful labels in certain times, but feeling like, oh yeah, I have an actual thing now. It almost validates it by having a name to it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I love that and I suppose, oney, one of the things you mentioned was around the language and that's always fascinated me anyway. The language we use is so important and, as you said you referred to the term queer back in the day was slanderous and, as I say, to claim that title now there'd be some people that would be going what. They still don't necessarily understand it in the way it is, but when you think about language around gender and queerness, how has that evolved for you personally?
Speaker 3:I think it's a really great question In terms of the language.
Speaker 3:it's really a part of that learning process because the upbringing that we often have is very heteronormative, it's very gender normative and we just don't really have those kind of conversations as much, and so it wasn't until I started to go hang on a second. There is much more to this. Let's explore it. You start to then get, you go to events or things and you have conversations with people within the community and you learn that language and the impact that it can have on people. So a project that I worked on when I was in the secondary school, part of a continuous development process, I looked at the impact of gendered language within classrooms.
Speaker 3:Okay, and obviously a lot around teachers were very good at scripts, so like ladies and gentlemen, uh, boys and girls, that kind of thing, and it's, it's that second nature. But then you go. Well, hang on a second. If there's this, if you have a young person that doesn't conform to those, those two, um, that very binary way of thinking, then I'm all of a sudden excluding them and thinking about the impact that that could have. And going, well, let's stop using those terms, let's start using folks, let's start using gender neutral language, let's use they, them pronouns, until we are certain what the pronouns of a young person are, so that we're not erasing who they are or shutting down any possibility for them to explore things and have those conversations and questions.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, the language around it's been really interesting and the chance to speak with other people and learn different terms and look at different flags as well that's something that I really love as well. Each of those kind of gender expressions and everything kind of comes with this. This lovely uh space for community and flags is a is a really good thing. I own I own many pride flags, um, for events and things like that as well, because it just makes me happy because I get to wear them as a cape. I love a cape yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have a cape, yes, superhero cape, or superhero cape or super person cape, and this is where people get caught up, don't they? In the language? And yes, and we hear it, and you probably hear it as well, is that, oh, um, what? And people get really struggle with them, they or yes?
Speaker 3:oh, no I can't say that.
Speaker 2:It used to be a workshop, all right, guys, and it used to drive me insane because there was a mixture of people in there. Please don't call everybody, guys. Yes, and it was really interesting to have conversations with people about that and they go oh my god, I didn't even think about it yes so how much of that is? I didn't even think about it. How does that impact on on on people?
Speaker 3:I think that's a great question and I think, seeing it from a school environment and seeing that if you use uh like very binary, focused language and you're not quite sure how to adapt it and in most cases people want to be there and be there supportive for people that have different pronouns or use different language but often, as you say, don't know how there's always useful guides out there. Stonewall's great to looking at how you can make things uh more gender neutral. One of my favorites, I think, is uh like a niece or nephew.
Speaker 3:if you uh make it gender neutral, it's nibbling, which I really like oh my god, I love that sibling, which is like, um, yeah, like your, your brother or sister kind of thing, uh, but yeah, if you gender neutral, like you've got nibblings, which I thought is great, that's cool. But yeah, even things like that and like it changing the language around, you know, uh, the manpower that we will need, or the fireman, fire person, and even even I struggle with it as well like knowing, like operation energy that you'll need to apply, and it starts to sound really weird. But I think that's a really interesting thing because it's how language evolves. Yes, language has evolved so much in the last 10 years, let alone how it might look in a hundred. Um, and I feel like that that can give us a really interesting insight into what society actually views gender and sexuality is based on the language that's currently used around it yeah and, I think, a lot of the like, ignorance and even some of the hate that comes from it.
Speaker 3:It comes from that lack of knowledge, and even that inability to discuss it means it's much harder and it's a barrier to even learning about it.
Speaker 2:So that's something that I think is a really interesting concept and I think the more, yeah, I'm a true believer, the more you go. I don't know what that means is to ask if you're not sure, and that's in anything, but a lot of people fear it, or you know, don't come away with you. But going on to you, know if you think about, as you said, what does being a demiboy, as you said, mean to you and how does that have shaped your sense of self?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, from a very personal point of view as well, I think that it comes from that level of self-awareness and self-esteem. I think understanding more parts about yourself gives you a lot more self-autonomy and ability to know what your needs are and what things you look for. Ability to know what your needs are and what things you look for, um, I really, I really think it's very useful to break down, like sexuality and gender identity, like I think it's. It should split. I think it's five different things that I read it it was so. You've got your, your gender identity. You've got your gender expression, how you, how you show yourself, yeah. You then got your romantic sexuality.
Speaker 3:You've got your um, like physical sexuality, um, and then you've got your biological sex, which is almost like the last part, where you look at biological male, biological female, intersex, that spectrum yeah and so, looking at yourself and breaking it down to those like five things, it can give you a lot more self-awareness and be like, oh yeah, no, I am romantically attracted to men, but not necessarily physically attracted to them. Yeah, and it just gives you that like self-awareness and self-understanding and like, oh yeah, express a bit differently, like, yeah, I am a demiboy and I'm comfortable with that as an identity. So, yeah, I think that is really fun to kind of learn more about yourself. If you ask yourself those kind of five questions, almost you get to learn a little bit more about what you like and who you are. So, yeah, I think that's always something I'd recommend.
Speaker 2:I think that's definitely something. And now, whether that comes from the fact that you're always you've been in that environment, you're always learning and always curious and wanted to know. But you're right, we always think that you know people that have a great level of self-awareness, are able to adapt and flex in any situation. Around that, and when we think about navigating our way through in the workplace because that can be like a whole nother world, how have you done that? In being you know, being out in professional environments, from the classroom to corporate settings, how have you navigated that?
Speaker 3:It's a really interesting one because obviously it's these part protected characteristics, characteristics what I am doing is not wrong, but it's it's always that, especially in a school environment, looking at it in terms of well, how will I be treated, especially when you're dealing with young people that yeah parts of their brains perhaps have not developed about social grace or um, about being careful about the language they use and other things and empathy and things like that, and putting yourself in those positions where you you may be challenged like why, sir, why are you wearing nail varnish?
Speaker 3:right, yeah and then going okay, well, now we have to explore this conversation. The main main reason was um, I often like bit my nails because of anxiety and things like that, and so when I painted them, I couldn't see them, which was so good, and there's a tip for anyone that bites their nails and wants to try it if you can't see them.
Speaker 3:I see there you go but because I worked uh, I used to work under a visualizer, which essentially was a camera that projected up onto a big screen, so my hands were constantly under it. So I always wanted to make sure my nails look good, because there's 30 children that are going to be looking at them right now and, yeah, and I think in the most cases the children were really supportive there would always be some people that just it would just they wouldn't be able to comprehend it, understand, like why on earth would I ever do this? Yeah, but it wouldn't bother them that much. We kind of just get on with it. Where, if I'd have other people that would be really excited oh, your nails like this today sir, like oh, I painted them this color.
Speaker 3:And like oh, that's great mine are this color and being able to kind of have fun in that space especially. Yes, it's not something I've been able to do, it's only been in the last few years that I've been painting my nails and then being able to then have those conversations with people that I've never had before, like, oh yeah, I'm thinking about green glitter next month why not?
Speaker 2:exactly, it's really exciting, yeah it's about being you, isn't it, I suppose, as well?
Speaker 3:very much so, and I think being unapologetically you as well is a really powerful thing, and particularly for teachers, they are role models to so many people. Yeah, they are, and being able to present yourself is that I am care, I am confident about what I am doing and I feel comfortable being my genuine self, and I think that can be really impactful, particularly if you are looking at a marginalized community and you're dealing with young people that are so confused, have so many questions. To see an ally and to see somebody that is so supportive and unapologetic as I say, who they are, that can be really powerful. They're like oh, I can be like that, at least they've got something to kind of strive towards.
Speaker 2:Even how does that play out in in corporate world?
Speaker 3:it's an interesting one because obviously it's, it's around.
Speaker 3:I come to work and I work on my spreadsheets and I work on the projects I'm doing. I have conversations with people. My sexuality doesn't often come up in those conversations, right or wrongly, and so you don't often. Those kinds of things are not often discussed and not necessary to discuss. But, that being said, it's me coming into the workspace knowing that you know I am Demi Boyd.
Speaker 3:There may be other people out there with non-gender conforming identities that I'm never going to know. But, seeing things like putting pronouns on email signatures, I'll make it clear that I put he, they or mine and the conversations that it can start because like, oh, why have you put they? Then it's like, okay, let's explore that. So again, I'm putting myself out there to gently have that conversation with people without it being confronting in some way, because I think it can be, as you've outlined, like quite challenging to have those conversations if they're like, oh, should I approach this or maybe I shouldn't? That could be offensive and I think if you come at something just trying to learn and to ask questions in a genuine manner, there's never anything wrong with that. I think always be careful around who you're asking, if you can do your own research beforehand.
Speaker 2:That's much better rather than putting the onus on a marginalized community to tell you something that you can go and look up yourself Exactly, especially now, when we can and we have access to so much information, especially now, when we can and we have access to so much information.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Whereas maybe back in the day, as they always say, that wasn't as easily accessible. So you know it's like it would have got misunderstood in whatever way and there isn't that education around it or that willingness to even explore it. And I think that's what you know when you're looking at authentic inclusion as well, and I think that's what you know when you're looking at authentic inclusion as well. You know what does that look like for non-binary or gender non-conforming folks at work. What does that look like?
Speaker 3:I think it's feeling safe in that space and protected. I know you kind of look at it from a policy point of view that your equality inclusion policy make sure it's covered, folks that are trans, make sure that is. It is supportive of people that have different sexualities, and if those are challenged then they are dealt with in the same way racism or sexism is dealt with, and I think that can make you feel quite a lot safer in your role. It's important to remember, though, that policy is only one thing Culture eats policy for breakfast.
Speaker 2:It's a guideline, right? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly 100%, and I think the culture kind of comes with the conversations that you have with people on a day-to-day basis, and even for me, it's this conversation I'm looking at at the moment with my line manager. We don't really have a supportive LGBTQ plus space for our colleagues or our customers and is that something that we could explore and go forward from and feeling that I am welcome to have that conversation in a workspace, that I am trying to make those improvements and it's being met with support rather than kicking it down the road, kind of thing that makes me feel like, oh, this company is trying to actually try and make a difference here and they're supporting my approach to try and make those improvements.
Speaker 2:So that's, something.
Speaker 3:I feel gives you that security, even though it's about making it nicer for other people almost as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get that. I think that's brilliant if they're embracing that and willing to go. Oh yeah, because we know demographics move and go, generations move on and you know we think of the aging population that we're in and where we're at now and when we're 70, 80, 90, you know, 50 years from now, 40 years from now, that has got to be talked about now, right, so that people, again, there's not this exclusion, it's like inclusion, which is so important. Again, there's not this exclusion, it's like inclusion, which is so important. And I suppose, when you're thinking about it, from the way that work can encourage, embrace, make a difference, listen, be curious. What do you think are the main things that organisations need to consider?
Speaker 3:Ooh, that's a good question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a curveball question, I'm just yeah, anyway, let me just let me just fix that for all uh, for all businesses.
Speaker 3:I think the key. Thing yeah, let's do it, let's, let's, let's create a list right now.
Speaker 3:Let's solve it here we go I think the first thing is to is to listen to what the needs of people are and not discount them. It's's really easy to. If someone is being loud or are upset, they can just say oh, that's just how they are. Why are they like that? Why is it that they are in a position that they are being? They've come and got cross, angry or upset? Is it because they're not getting the support that they need? Is it because there are things that are not, that are actively working against them at the moment? I think it's really difficult to make everyone feel safe and secure if they don't feel listened to. So, having opportunities and feedback chances where people actually listen to a lot of, like you said, we did.
Speaker 3:I know it's a bit of a buzz kind of term, but it genuinely does make a difference if you're one of those people that raised that as a concern and it was listened to. It breaks down this like monolith, that is a business into more human based like oh, I'm actually being listened to. Yeah, that can be really powerful, I think, in terms of trying to make change and making people feel safe in their roles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, and they're really simple things to do, aren't they? It's not like it's not rocket science, it's general. I'll listen, okay, I don't know, but I'm gonna ask and be curious and have that level of creating a sense of understanding, um, you know, so that I can. I would say, you know, I could walk in your shoes. I would never be able to do that, but I can ask questions about it to find out more. Um, and I think that's the. That's the difference, isn't it is that willingness to even want to know and put it forward in there.
Speaker 2:Going back to what you were saying around in your education, in the school environment, because obviously we're creating, you know, the future generation right, and we're going to be working with Gen Zs very soon and Gen as are coming through and all of that lovely stuff. So it's about getting ready. But, as a former teacher, how did you approach inclusivity in your classroom at the time, especially, as you mentioned, for queer or questioning students? Because you said, said that age, everything is like so much information is coming their way. Should I be this? Should I be that? I don't know. What does that mean? How, how did you approach that?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think that's a great one and it was a really difficult thing to do within a school, because you are bringing almost part of yourself and putting it into a classroom and showing weekly well, on a day could be 300 odd children and being careful about how much you share and what your intention as a science teacher which I was is what am I actually teaching? But I think the first visible thing that I did was just have a pride flag up just show that I actually I am an, an ally, I am supportive, and it gives an opportunity to ask questions as well, that I think that we had little badges on lanyards and things like that which just showed that we were allies. It was just a visual representation that I am here to have that conversation and support you if you have questions, because people then felt more comfortable to stay at the end of the class. They obviously do it in front of everyone, but they would stay at the end. They go so.
Speaker 3:So what? You know what? Why? Why do you paint your nails? Or you know what? What does it mean to be bisexual? And they're incredibly nervous, but they know that they're in a safe space to ask those questions and I think allowing that opportunity to ask those questions and being supportive of that made a big difference.
Speaker 3:And, as I say, I think that the language that I used in the classroom as well, that I wouldn't just assume pronouns of young people because I didn't know, and it didn't matter that I used they, them with them, because they didn't have an issue with that, and some of them were sometimes like I'm not a they. What are your pronouns then? Oh, she, her Brilliant. I'll use those from now on. Thank you for telling me, yeah.
Speaker 3:And just normalizing that kind of conversation and it leaves them so jarred by you being so open and having that conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, brilliant.
Speaker 3:Okay thanks, yeah, now I know yeah exactly and just starting that ball rolling with them as well. No-transcript interested to ask questions and for us to have an open forum and have that conversation and, I think, allowing for that space to happen, even though it wasn't necessarily the right thing to do in terms of the national curriculum, like no, we're preparing young people for the world ahead.
Speaker 3:this is an opportunity where they are interested so let's, let's, let's have this conversation so that, I think, is another way that you can be supportive in a, in a space as if with young people anyway yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I think there's also an argument. You could do that in the world of work as well, though, isn't it? Yeah, that is true, that is true and I know some organizations do that, don't they? They have the um groups that they've set up and it's got more and more. But I suppose it's how does how do? How does how do um? You know organizations embrace that, like you say, because I believe is it. Am I right and understand you set up a support group at the school as well?
Speaker 3:yes, that's right, I set up a rainbow alliance we called it so. I think support groups are a really powerful thing that any school or business can do, because it creates a safe space for people to go to to have those conversations where they may not be able to have them in their normal life. Sure, and particularly for young people in the case I was in, a lot of their parents wouldn't be able to have those conversations or, in some cases, wouldn't be supportive of those conversations. So it gave people in a very isolated community or a very marginalized space to have allies around them, either because they shared their identity or sexuality or they just had a connection with them.
Speaker 3:And we ran Rainbow Alliance for a little while. It kind of started at humble beginnings and then I took over and we started to run more events. We held our own pride events with silent auctions and raised money for charity, and we also started to push back against certain things the school were doing and trying to get gender neutral changing rooms or gender neutral toilets and things like that, and it was a really powerful space for a like-minded people to go. This is something that we are feeling. What can we do about?
Speaker 2:it.
Speaker 3:Okay, let's collect these ideas and then approach the relevant people and it just means people feel listened to and there actually feels like there's progress being made. And I think that's a really powerful thing that if you are sitting in something you're uncomfortable with whether it's your sexuality or identity or something else if you can see active progress to changing it and improving it, that validates that you want to do more of it and encourages others to see that and go yes, let's, let's keep this ball rolling yeah, so.
Speaker 2:I think support groups are a really powerful thing that any school or business can have to allow that open space yeah, and I think what you said, you know you, what comes through is listening, just being heard, heard, just being listened to, being given that safe space to explore. You know, not asking. Well, you tell me what it's all about, actually doing your own research as well and then asking questions off the back of it, which is, you know a lot of what you know Laura and I are doing for this month is going. Well, I know that much, but I don't know that much. So what can I do to find out even more? And I think that is the bit that you go oh my gosh, I now get that. You know, like I've just learned nibblings. I love that.
Speaker 2:I never knew that so everything around it is so it's. So being that inquisitive mind, I think, is really important and we, we can all do that right. It doesn't just stop at some point in life. It continues to evolve, doesn't it, if you want it to. But I suppose, thinking about where you're at now in the work and the work that you're doing, and that intersection of identity and change at work, how does your queer identity influence the way that you lead and or facilitate transformation in the workplace?
Speaker 3:I remember this question that Carl asked me a little while ago and I was like I did stump me for a little bit and it's still a very difficult question to answer, I feel. But on reflection, I think being queer and being aware of other communities and other people's uniqueness and their, their different things that make them tick, um, I know we've, we've done some work around uh sort of insights and, uh, I know that I bring a lot of blue and a lot of yellow. Yeah, and in knowing, knowing that in itself that people work in different ways, and recognizing that that I'm going to have to bring, if I'm bringing in change, if I'm looking to, to alter something, I know there's going to be resistance. Yeah, and that's okay because it means that if someone is resisting, it means they care yes and they want it to work for them and they want it to be a positive experience.
Speaker 3:if I'm looking to change something, so it's about bringing those people on board and having that open and honest conversation with them as well, and I think you can really get into change and driving forces behind it if you involve those kind of people that are resistant to it?
Speaker 3:Yes, and you can see. Well, if you feel that way, then this person feels this different way. How can we involve everyone in this? Because transformation unfortunately takes it's not a straightforward process and improvement and building and learning they those are things that are hard fought, but we have to keep doing it. And although humans are creatures of habit and we like things being like yes, this is my routine, this is what works for me, if we don't push outside of that comfort zone and look to make our lives easier and better, things don't change and naturally decline over time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very true, but yeah, yeah, and I think we always say if you want to make any transformational change for yourself, your team, your organization, whatever you have to let go of some of the stuff that's not helping you and let to let come the new stuff with that open mind and open heart and open willingness is what we always say, which is really interesting because I suppose, when you're looking at, thinking about or looking at the parallels between identity exploration and organizational change, being comfortable in the, you know, in the discomfort and challenging conversations yeah, how does that, how does that play out for individuals to be able to know what, how, when to do to get the best out of their relationships that they build?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think a lot of it is around having those challenging conversations and being able to, as you said, being comfortable in that discomfort, because you are going to be trying to put change in place. You are going to be upsetting the status quo and for somebody that's been very comfortable in the position that they have been in, they may be not as aware of the impact it's having on other people and being able to go now. You've been in a very positive position right now because of your upbringing, because of the position you're in within your business, whatever it might be. But there's all of these lovely people over here that also want opportunity for growth and change.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, being able to have that conversation around tolerance and, um, sometimes morality, I think is a really interesting one, and there's always this um, it's one that I come back to and I think it's a really interesting one. And there's always this um. It's one that I come back to and I think it's a really interesting concept. It's to do with tolerance. Yes, and I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's the paradox of tolerance. Tell us more, and oh, I'd love to, because I love this one. It's this philosophical concept that basically suggests that if a society extends tolerance to those who are intolerant, it risks enabling eventual domination of that intolerant behavior. So essentially, if you are tolerant of everyone, you are also being tolerant of intolerance. It means that over time you're just going to end up with an intolerant society.
Speaker 2:I've never thought about it that way.
Speaker 3:Okay, I know it's really cool, karl Popper 1945. But yeah, it's one of those ones where it's like oh, as a person, I want to be lovely to everyone and I've worked through being a people pleaser because I recognize the downsides of it. But getting to that point where you go actually, no, I don't need to be tolerant of you right now, because what you are doing is actively being intolerant and being comfortable with challenging that and going no, no, we want this is our goal is to be tolerant and to change and make things positive. And if you are actively stepping in that way, I can't be tolerant of you in this situation because you are actively counteracting what we are trying to achieve. So that's a really interesting one the paradox of tolerance.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I love that. I'm'm gonna find out more about that, but it's not until you have these conversations, you go.
Speaker 2:oh yeah, that makes sense yes, but you never have normally an opportunity to even consider that, because in the intent is, as you said, to be tolerant, but the flip of that is also well, yeah, but you're driving a different time, a way of being or behavior in that. So I think that is interesting. So if we, if we bring into where we are today and thinking about you, know what we're doing, and pride and representation, what does pride mean to you today? And I know that meaning has shifted over the years. I've experienced it and it's always evolving and changing and learning. So but what does it mean to you today?
Speaker 3:I think it's a something that's evolved for me as well over time, and I think initially it was around feeling a part of a community and being positive and amplifying the voices of marginalized communities and showing visual support, being in those spaces. And over time it's kind of gotten to a point where I'm like, hang on, let's look at where pride came from. Pride pride was a protest. Pride originally started, obviously 1969. We're looking at stonewall, yeah, and that unrest that kind of followed with that. It was because they were pushing back against the status quo. And I've started to see pride a lot more as a protest and going no, no, society is needs to improve, it has a great opportunity here and it's not happening. Yeah, so I like to.
Speaker 3:I recently went to the um, an event organized by the Trans Liberation Group in Bournemouth, and it was a rally, a march that went through the town, and it was a brilliant opportunity to listen to speakers in that space being angry and wanting change and being passionate about that and being part of that and being like, yeah, it isn't good enough, we do need to do better, what can we do?
Speaker 3:And that inspires you to contact your mp with the your. You know our discomfort in the situation and that you want to see that change. And I think pride gives us a beautiful reminder that, no, things aren't there yet and, yes, let's be positive about the journey we have made, but we're still not there. Yeah, the there's a lot more support for folks that are gay and there's a lot less discrimination around that, but there's still, like our transgender folks, they are still being being left behind and I think it's like no, no, that fight's still going, don't give up, we still have more to do. So pride for me is that being part of a community that said, no, we're not done yet, let's keep pushing, and that that is like that puts a fire in my belly I'll put my cape on again.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say, let's put that cape on, I think, and that's that's it, isn't it? Because I suppose it's links with the, just the general importance of being accepted and, yes, you know you mentioned this earlier about being part of something, of belonging to somebody, a community, and I suppose that, in the importance of acceptance, is massive, isn't it? And when we think about, yes, yeah, you know who or has helped us along the way to feel proud of your identity early on, you know who. Who would that be if you have anybody, or what helped you to do that?
Speaker 3:I think I, as I said sort of at the start of our conversation, I really owe a lot to my partner KP being able to ask so many questions to them and being able to learn in that space and being able to just to have that door opened and go oh, there's more things out here.
Speaker 2:I should probably explore this exactly um, and that's just one.
Speaker 3:That's just one person, and I owe an awful lot to them yeah but their community space that you can also be in can be really powerful as well, and I owe an awful lot to them. But their community space that you can also be in can be really powerful as well, and I'm going to shamelessly name drop here for the roller derby league that I am a part of.
Speaker 3:And for anyone that doesn't know what roller derby is. Oh my goodness, look it up. It's a contact roller skating sport. It is brilliant. It's a team-based sport where you are roller skating on the track with two teams. There's a team-based sport where you are roller skating on the track with two teams. There's a jammer on each of the teams. The jammer passes the opposing team skaters to get points. It's a beautiful game. I love it, but it's also delightfully queer as well, in the sense that it's an incredibly supportive space. The team that I'm a part of Dorset Roller Derby and I'll share some links and things so you can get in touch with them if you're interested, if you want to come and learn to skate um or be involved in the community.
Speaker 3:It is a unapologetically supportive space where you have lots of different genders, lots of different sexualities that come together because they feel safe and then we hit each other whilst we're wearing roller skates love that and I think that it's that it's being in that community and then having that team sport element to go with it yes, it just reinforces this beautiful space that, oh look, we can all exist together in harmony.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with our differences still do work together to achieve an objective. Yeah, and that, coupled with my love of roller skating, it just it's beautiful and I really enjoy what we have grown the league into over the past few years and it's come a long way and because of the change that we wanted to put in place and what we wanted to improve and what we wanted to stand for and how we wanted to be inclusive and seeing the impact that that's now had with the people that we've brought on and the, the positive space that we have, that that I feel has been so validating for me to exist in and to help grow. It's like I did. I did that a little bit that was part of it.
Speaker 2:I love that. And again, as you said earlier, you know out of these small moments where and then it just like snowball gathering, doesn't it all the way and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and people will then become more intrigued and interested and want to explore, and that it has to start somewhere, isn't it so? So for you, what voices um in the lgbtqia plus space inspire you right now?
Speaker 3:I think it's. It's relevant to who's what's going on at the moment. As I say, the the Trans Liberation March that I went to was really powerful to see some voices of people that I follow on Instagram or and we, we had come into the school to work with us and it was benny cara.
Speaker 3:Um, benny cara was a deputy uh head teacher, I believe, at the school that they were working at, but now they they wrote a book, um that they're the author of. It's a little guide for teachers diversity in schools, okay, and it just gives us a little bit of an outline as to how you can make in a classroom more inclusive, how can a school be more aware of microaggressions and how can it counter it to try to make a more inclusive space where you do not, um, erase those marginalized communities and actually amplify those voices.
Speaker 3:So that was really powerful to hear like, oh, there's a book about this, great, I can learn a little bit more. And then the actual person came in. You get to shake their hand. How cool it is meeting role models was was kind of fantastic in in that regard. So, yeah, those having someone like that was was very powerful for me, um, to see that, oh, it can be done, we can do this in a school environment.
Speaker 2:We can do this and which you obviously proved with setting up the rainbow alliance and and, as you said, creating opportunities for the young people to have conversations and and ask you questions and explore.
Speaker 3:So yeah, obviously it did inspire you yeah, and that allowed us to then connect with other schools as well and show and and have those conversations with different students in different classes. And I think it would be great if, if businesses could do more of that as well. So if there is a support group, that the other support groups could reach out to them and be like, oh, our business is doing this, what are you doing? What success stories do you have to share that we could potentially implement for us? And I think that opening those things out is really good. I think the challenge that comes with that is visibility is great, but without security and protection it's dangerous, and so it's all well and good. You can stand in the middle of the street and shout and scream about your sexuality or your identity. People probably won't like that and you put yourself in danger. So until that positive support and change in culture is in place, you've kind of got to be careful with it.
Speaker 2:So it's a sad truth, unfortunately, unfortunately, but I like to think that the wheels are turning in the right direction and we will start to see more of that positivity one step at a time, it would never have, you know, I mean otherwise, we just stay stuck, and that's not, and we haven't as a, you know, as a whole race, we have not stayed stuck, um, which is a good thing as humans, I suppose somewhere exactly but just to sort I. We could talk about this for ages, but just to sort of bring it up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm enjoying it. I know it's so cool.
Speaker 2:What would you tell your younger self stepping into their identity in school or in the workplace?
Speaker 3:Be proud of who you are and learn about other people, and the reason I say that is because I learned very late in life about the differences and different people because of my very heteronormative upbringing. Sure, it allows me to, if I could say that to my younger self and just be like be proud of yourself, be your own role model, if you can, and and yeah you know.
Speaker 3:Live in that truth in regards to you want to. You want to learn more, you want to be a better person? Then educate yourself and be comfortable that you don't know things and that's fine. Um, and being aware that, yeah yes, you don't know everything now and you're never going to know everything, but that's part of being human. It's about learning and making those steps along the way.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, being yeah being your own role model. I think is a a hard thing to do, but if you can get to that point, if you can build your self-esteem and know that you're making the right decisions and being proud of yourself, that, like little internal, it's something I it's really works for me and I know it's not great for everyone. It's that little internal voice, mine's incredibly positive. So if things are difficult it does spur me me on. But I know for other folks that internal voice is very much the opposite.
Speaker 3:it's fully negative, like you're not good enough, you're never going to be good enough yeah and I think having more positive self-talk and making yourself more, and recognizing when you are going, you're having a bad day or you're having negative thoughts. Let's let's challenge those thoughts. Let's provide evidence to the contrary of how you are feeling and let's explore why that. Yes, that is a thing you are thinking right now. Let's explore it and let's create a plan to improve from that. So yeah, challenging unhelpful thoughts, that's been something I learned through counselling.
Speaker 2:It's very useful. I know we do a lot of that as well. My last question well, maybe maybe last second to last question is um, what would you like allies to better understand about being a demiboy and queer in professional settings?
Speaker 3:I think, just just being aware of differences within a professional space, that you are going to have people from lots of different backgrounds and lots of different identities and sexualities and families and backgrounds and cultures and religions so much more around a human being. That advice I would give to anyone would just be don't assume that you understand someone based just on how they look or a conversation you've had yeah if you want to.
Speaker 3:If you want to get to know someone, then get to know someone yeah I think we're in a position where society and and businesses are so focused on particular goals and objectives it's almost defiant to go. Actually, you want me to just make these very like basic level connections with other professionals so that I can learn from them and in and better myself and grow the business. Be a human being. If you kind of like that person or you want to know more about that person but have a professional relationship with them, learn more about them, have a conversation, yeah, don't be afraid to to have deeper relationships with people within a work setting, because it allows you to trust that person more and it does and facilitate those conversations with them more. So, yeah, be defiant and like people that you work with.
Speaker 2:You're not going to like everyone. I like that. No, you won't. But you can help to go find out why and what is going on there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly being curious about it.
Speaker 2:So if you were to give us, our listeners, one call to action, what would that call to action be?
Speaker 3:I think the call to action for everyone listening is to never stop learning, and what I mean by that is keep educating yourself. If you are not that marginalized community, or even if you are, listen to the voices of others and be prepared to amplify them, because, yeah, the more we make noise, about this.
Speaker 3:the more we make noise about this, the more we make language and conversations around gender neutral language, using the term nibbling more often, whatever it might be, make those things normal and make it more expected, and so therefore, those that are not as aware of it or haven't learned get that opportunity to learn and allow for that social progress and improvement within society and individually as well yeah, brilliant, I mean.
Speaker 2:Oh, my god, and everything you've spoken about go, yes, yeah, and, as you said, it's just being a decent human yes, um which I always go on about just be decent, be kind, compassionate and care enough to want to know or find out.
Speaker 2:Don't be narrow-minded or blinkered and have your be unapologetically you, as you said, as well. But, um, I just want to say a massive thank you, um ollie, for taking the time out to talk about this, because it is amazing what you know, what you've. You've transitioned careers as well. You've explored different avenues. You're making it that ability to get people to think differently in the world of work as well, and I think that's just incredible and I love that. I love it to bits. But I want to say a massive thank you for your time. So how do people reach out to you if they want to know a bit more about what you're doing or where they might be able to connect with you? If they've resonated with what you've said and went oh, actually, I need to somebody. Um, you know why would I not talk to Ollie? Where can they find you?
Speaker 3:of course, I think the best way to to get in touch with me if you're not going to come and do roller skating, probably through my LinkedIn, and I'm going to be like, oh, what is my LinkedIn? Uh, because I sent it to Carl but I didn't actually um do?
Speaker 2:we didn't print it off around it, I think yes, we need to have a look at what it is I've got it.
Speaker 3:I have got it I think it's 75, but that could be wrong I I think it might be 75 that sounds like it was right, even though you're giving your age away there as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, is that? Does that give? The age as well if you put your date of birth on it, it will yes, I wasn't born at 75, absolutely. I want to know what I was going to say. What does 75 mean?
Speaker 3:now I'm confused. No, exactly as I say, I'm now questioning what it was, so I sent it to carl. Here we go. It is literally just wwwlinkedincom. Forward slash in forward slash. Ollie hyphen cooper there's no numbers at all.
Speaker 2:Ignore that numbers at all. I mean, you must that? All right, I'd say. I say, put the lottery on tonight. But they don't have 75 on there don't they?
Speaker 3:no, I don't think so. That's true, that's true, but yeah, I'd be very happy for people to reach out brilliant.
Speaker 2:Well, make sure that gets into the um show notes as well. But I want to say massive thank you for taking time out and and just us that you know your advice, your wisdom, your guidance. It's been super helpful and I've learned loads, as we've been chatting as well. So yeah, thank you for your time.
Speaker 3:Thank you. I've had a wonderful, wonderful opportunity to speak with you. I always enjoy chatting with you, deb, so I'm very happy to have given my time today.
Speaker 2:You look after yourself and we'll see you soon.
Speaker 3:Yes, see you soon. Yes, see you soon, take care, bye so law.
Speaker 1:What did you think? I feel like I've read the new section of the highway code about new rules of the road and smart motorways and and I just sort of think you know there's such an easy analogy to driving on motorway because when I first learned to drive there was no mobile phones. There was no smart motorways?
Speaker 2:there was no these dynamic speeds.
Speaker 1:No sat navs, no sat nav. And you know you can't stop progress, progress. And if you want to continue driving on the road, then you know part of that license is that you commit to um understanding the new rules of the road. You know that's part of being a safe and compliant driver. Yeah, and maybe there's the same parallel in the world of work. If you want to be there in the world of work these days, part of that is being able to understand and find out new ways of describing stuff. So I've learned loads of new words and I know Debs you introduced me because you'd obviously spoken to Ollie- yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you shared with us, as the team, about this new word.
Speaker 2:So your massive takeaway was yeah, just that awareness of how people want to the pronouns. And what I took away was the word nibblings and I went what is that? And? And you're hearing when he talks about it, and that's if you're, if, rather than a niece, nephew, you have a nibbling. And I just said, oh my goodness, so that doesn't even pigeonhole young children, people, even that age. So that ability to reframe and understand the nuances around language I think is super important. And I know we talked a bit about and I know with a few of our guests we talk about the word queer coming from the queer community, because back in the day, back in my days in the seventies, queer was a bit of a derogatory word, whereas now the queer community is embracing that as a great word and I think, yeah, that makes sense, why would we not? So, yeah, so I learned about nibblings, which I loved, absolutely loved. So it was brilliant. What about you?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it sort of gave me pause for thought about just how important language and and words is, and I was thinking of as you know, I've been doing a bit of work in the states recently clang oh, mic drop and you're going back, aren't you law?
Speaker 1:oh no I know, I know. Yeah, yeah, deported. No, uh, no, um and um. Yeah, I've noticed that I've never heard the word folks being used quite so much, and that is just. I think we're certainly in the industry that I'm working with. That's the way of if you want to gather a load of people together in the room, you say, okay, folks, or those folks over there, and I've never really heard that word, but I like it. I think it's an easy way and it doesn't take any energy for me to just use the word folks rather than guys, as you said. Yeah, you know what's the loss for me, but if actually that means everyone in that room feels included, why wouldn't I? So that's what I really took from. Actually, there are certain moments where certain words will stick out, and so why wouldn't you just jam up on some of the new ways of describing it? So, yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 2:He was so good, wasn't he? And I just loved his passion and enthusiasm as well for being, you know, a forerunner in setting groups up or enabling safe spaces. And again, like Steph, it was about creating safe spaces for people and to be who they are and know safe, protected spaces really, which humans want, and I just thought that was the underlying message that came through how do we create safe environments for people to be them, and I really love that. So, and I think that, linked into my call to action actually on this one law which was listening to Ollie, was around that learning moment again. So where you had, I'd love you to share with us through our Instagram page at Secrets from a Coach is what has been ah, I get it now moment, and it makes sense to you. So, if you have a moment in time where you learn because of a conversation you had with somebody, share that on our Instagram, because we'd love to hear your story about the oh, I get it moment.
Speaker 1:That little jolt kind of learning jolt. Yeah, that's aggressive and my call to action would be who do you know in your life with whom has been saying things recently about oh I don't get all this new stuff, it's all overwhelming, it's too complicated. Get them to listen to this. And our hope and ambition for this five-part focus was an easy listening, low drama, just focusing on curiosity and education to equip and empower us to be able to make, to do what we can in those moments to bring those values to everyday life. So, yeah, who do you know who's said recently oh it's all above me, I don't understand, it's all too much. Get them to listen to this. And hopefully this is, you know, the opposite of sensationalism and just bringing a bit of a practical approach to it.
Speaker 1:So, devs, this has been our second one yes, we've got two more guests and then we're going to do the bonus fifth episode where we're going to sort of tie it all together and give some sort of key takeaways. So we're looking forward to next week. Thanks again to Ollie for a fantastic conversation and if you want to contact Ollie, we'll have his details in the podcast overview description. So, debs, in the meantime, have a learning filled, amazing week.
Speaker 2:I will, and you too, laura, and get your passport ready and make sure it's up to date.
Speaker 1:Look at that photo again. Oh God Look at that photo.
Speaker 2:I love that, but have a good one though, Laura oh you too. See you later, love you, bye.
Speaker 1:We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secrets from a coachcom, or follow us on insta or facebook. If you're a spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website wwwsecretsfromacoachcom and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work. You.