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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
241. Celebration of Difference and Allyship
In the third episode of our Taking Pride series, we explore the vital role of allyship in creating safe, respectful spaces for LGBTQIA+ colleagues—especially those who may be vulnerable or marginalised.
We’re joined by the courageous and articulate Sophie, who shares deeply personal stories of moments where a lack of allyship turned already challenging experiences into something far more painful. Her reflections highlight why recognising, respecting, and celebrating differences isn’t just nice to have—it’s essential.
This episode is a call to action for all of us to notice when support is needed and to have the courage to stand by someone or call others in with compassion and clarity.
Have you ever stepped up as an ally or witnessed a powerful moment of support? Share your ‘ally moments’ with us on Instagram @secretsfromacoach and help amplify the power of everyday solidarity.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs Law, you all right? Yeah, I am buzzing with this miniseries.
Speaker 2:It's just so cool, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I know, and it's just such an opportunity to learn, refresh and disrupt our thinking which I know is one of your favourite phrases and the ambition for this miniseries was to look at practical ways that we can bring pride values to everyday life. We've had an amazing selection of guests so far, so we had Steph, who was really talking about what we can do to create a safe environment for someone to be able to drop their armor and be free to be them. We then heard from the fantastic Ollie, who just gave us like a lesson in language and new ways of looking at things. So, rather than feeling difficult and complicated, we just kind of have those aha moments. So it's been great to see some of those Instagram posts coming through of where people are sharing their moments, whether that is their moments where they've created a safe space for someone, moments where they've had like an eye-opening jolt and I'm really looking forward to see what gets prompted by this week's focus, which is all about celebration of difference.
Speaker 2:It is about the celebration of difference. This is with the wonderful Sophie Brown who we have had on our podcast before, actually just thought, um, bringing her back, or I should give her a proper name of Sophie Catherine Bennett Brown. So, um, but she is somebody who is such an advocate and a professional in what she does, of working in her current role but also working across vulnerable communities and people that sit within it and just listening to her around her, not just her resilience as to how people have just assumed or judged her, it's also that self-acceptance which she talks a lot about in this podcast for us, and that ability to still be your authentic self and making sure that you have that opportunity to just be you. And, in particular, I particularly like the fact she talked about for her growing up she was just accepted for who she was, but, as she said and as we discussed, not everybody is in that privileged position to just be accepted as who you are, regardless in how you present yourself. So I thought it was really fascinating to listen to her talk about that fierce compassion. So shall we take a listen and see what she has to say.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, and welcome again to a very exciting guest which, if some of you have listened to our podcast over the years Soph or Sophie I should call her, but Soph was on it a while back talking about her experience but what we wanted to do for this month of Pride. As you know, we're exploring different perspectives and different things and how people deal with what gets thrown at them from being identifying as part of the queer community, and Sophie's going to sort of share it from her perspective, as well as all of the work that she does as an ally and an advocate a big, big, big, big advocate of what this means, both in her professional work and in her personal life and, in particular, how, over her career, has she been supporting the more vulnerable communities? So, soph, welcome back. Thank you so much. We're so happy to have you back. What I wanted to start off with obviously, give us a little bit of your personal journey and how I suppose your identity has shaped your outlook on life and work. Tell us more, soph.
Speaker 3:It's a good question, such a good question. I think from a young age I knew that I felt differently about my sexuality specifically and kind of felt like, you know, other girls might say, oh, I really, she's such a pretty person, I'm like, yeah, I fancy her a bit, and they were like that's not what we meant and I thought, oh, okay, and then you have realized that actually I'm thinking about this in a slightly different way than maybe you are and I thought, okay, something's a bit different, something's something's changing. But, yeah, I've been really lucky, I think, in that my, my mum, it has always been very open about sexuality. It's never been something for her that's been kind of taboo or something that's been negative, and my godfather is a gay man. So, you know, I never thought it was anything wrong with that, you know, initially, and my mum, having worked in aviation, that's not unusual to to be in involved people that are part of the queer community, so it never felt to me like it was something strange, until you kind of get older and get exposed to other people who kind of are quite happy to say that that's wrong and and so, yeah, I've certainly experienced that.
Speaker 3:I've certainly experienced, you know, like a level of bullying that I think a lot of queer kids have experienced in secondary school. But I never kind of saw myself in a victim in that way because I've always been really confident in who I am. Yeah, I've always felt really strongly about who I am and I'm, I'm fine with it. You know I'm, I'm great with it. It's just part of who I am, it's just another piece of of Sophie. So it kind of never upset me in that way, right, but I saw how it upset some of my friends. But you know, they think really differently about this. Someone else's perception of them really impacts them in a way that I don't necessarily experience. And kind of seeing that vulnerability for me was really interesting and I always worked, as you know, I was at the youth wing.
Speaker 3:I did a lot of volunteering there and there were a lot of kids that were part of the queer community or felt like they might be part of the queer community or that was different about their sexuality or their general presentation or their gender fluidity, all of these things, and it seemed like we were able to create this really safe place for them to to want to have that discussion, and so from a very young age, I'd say people were talking to me about that because I was very open about who I was, yeah, felt like they could have that conversation with me, which was great, it's a massive blessing and lots.
Speaker 3:And so I did have those kind of conversations with with some of my peers and some of my friends from a really young age and I thought, wow, our life experience is different. It's fundamentally different to that of a person that is straight, yeah, and even more different if you identify as a different gender. Yes, so right, okay, that's that's interesting, and I have, I have loads of trans friends, and one really comes to to mind at the moment and I thought, wow, his life is really hard, right you know like his life is really different.
Speaker 3:His experience is completely different and the way that he views life through his lens is so different to mine and what are those differences?
Speaker 2:so just to give us a bit more. You know flavor around that. Fundamentally it's different.
Speaker 3:So, right, you and I go around as cis women. I'm pretty happy to be a woman, I don't mind it, you know I'm, I'm great with that. But I think if you wake up every day feeling like this is the wrong body for me, right, very hard to move through life comfortably. That's hard and you know, it's like little things that we take for granted, like non-binary people, for example, going to work, which bathroom are they going to use? Yes, they're really really difficult and that's like a really simple thing that you and I take for granted.
Speaker 3:Really, it going to the bathroom can be, can be so challenged, yeah, and even it when you go into a bathroom, you can be challenged in that bathroom, like, why are you here? And that happens quite a lot. And I think it's the anxiety and the fear of like, what, what if that happens to me, and that you know, some of my friends that I knew and some of the young people that I work with talk about a bit more later, would avoid that situation entirely. Wow, you know, wouldn't go to work, or would you know, try and work specific hours so that, if they needed to, they could do that at home, and it's like such a small thing as a bathroom that you and I wouldn't think about.
Speaker 2:There's so many things and that's really hard and I know so you, you did a huge amount of work at the youth wing and working with those young people, yeah, and I suppose when you go back to that time and you listen to what they had to say, was there things there that you went wow, they have not got the support of a family, like you said. Your mum and obviously I was with Carl, the supportive family around to go and you know, but those young people that didn't have that, how did you help them navigate that?
Speaker 3:Gosh, I'm sure I was such a small part of it, but I think it's just saying there's nothing wrong with you, you know. I think that's a huge moment to give someone, or to support them in giving themselves permission to be who they are authentically. Yeah, I know that that's not something they can control, that's not something that you know you don't wake up and be, you know want to be gay or it's just who you are. It's just how, how you identify, it's just part of who you are, and so I think a huge part of it was was that kind of authenticity and that permission.
Speaker 3:That, yeah, permission to be who they are yeah um, try and live unapologetically, but it's quite hard, you know, in in one space to to have that and to feel that way and to not have that space to be who you are yeah, and that must be really really tough, mental from their mind, health and yeah, everything.
Speaker 2:It must be really hard to be able to differentiate and I suppose the support that is there, enough support out there now because we've moved on. It was a long time since you were at the youth wing and I know we talk about the work you've done since then, obviously with the vulnerable communities, but is there more that could be done in those setups, those environments, to bring awareness to this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think there's always more that we can do. There's always more as a community and as a society that we can do for any community. That's a minority, absolutely Specifically obviously for the purposes of this podcast queer people and especially young people, because ultimately, they're our future and they need to know that they're safe and secure. Yeah, right, and so you know, places like youth wings are amazing. Then I would love to see more funding for lgbt specific youth youth clubs. There's a lot in brighton that goes on. Like all sorts, for example, are a brilliant charity and they do a lot of great work and they create that really safe place and you'd assume that, being in brighton, that it is. It's you know it is one of the safer places to be, but there's still, of course, stuff that goes on there. That's really not great, but you know, all Sorts is a great charity and they do. They do a lot of good work.
Speaker 3:As I said, about creating that safe place and about, you know, being around people that are like you, I think that's really important. Like representation, representation is massive. Yeah, if you don't see yourself represented in something, it's really hard to think, oh, I'm okay, that's, that's okay for me to be like if you don't see that. So you know, I love seeing, like it's so silly, but like an advert on tv for something of like missus and missus or little things like that, and you think, ah, yay, you know, that's like pockets of joy are so massive to like a queer child sitting at home with parents telling them they're wrong. Yeah, so it's all these things and there's that level of intentionality about that.
Speaker 3:You know, it's not hard to make it things more inclusive. That's why it's quite scary. You know, at the moment, with the supreme court rulings and stuff about edi, it's quite terrifying, not just for the queer community but specifically for, like, non-binary and trans communities. It's so hard and it's so scary. Yeah, so I think more needs to be done in this country for that specific community within the LGBT plus community. That's something I would love to see. I don't necessarily know that I have all the answers.
Speaker 2:Yeah tell me, soph, then what does what does pride mean to you personally, and how would you think that meaning has evolved over the years? I was talking earlier to one of our other guests and we were saying around the word queer, and back in the day that was derogatory, whereas now it's becoming that's accepted. So I mean there are other things that have evolved over time, but for you, yeah, it would be really nice to know what pride means to you personally. Sure?
Speaker 3:I think it's great that we're using the word queer. I think a lot of people that I know have reclaimed that word. It's like a reflection of like this has previously been used in a negative way and actually we see it really powerfully and that we accept that now. I think pride to me is like self-acceptance, equality, inclusion, authenticity, permission to be who I am and to be proud of who I am. Yeah, and that level of resilience.
Speaker 3:I think that comes with that, because it's not always easy, right, and you know, I've had some really difficult situations because of my identity and it's like I can't control that. You know. That's not not, I don't do this on purpose. It's just who I am and I think, yeah, you know, and then it comes that the last thing I really love is is the celebration. It's it's wonderful to be in a room of people that are celebrating who you are and accepting you for who you are. That's really important to me is is that I feel like I've learned in life is I, I'm me, there's only me. Yeah, I've only ever been me.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like how is how have you seen it evolve? I know you just mentioned, you know, the supreme court is like taking it 20 freaking steps backwards, right, but when you think about how that whole community has evolved over time, what would, what's your take on that and what have you seen that's, you know, been different?
Speaker 3:I've seen some really positive things, actually, like in some great moments of acceptance of you know, there's a lot of people that I know that are super accepting and even, in my own prejudgment, people that I've thought, oh gosh, that's a bit scary, and they've been like, oh yeah, we love that. You know, that's great. We love gay people. And you're like, oh fantastic, okay, that was unexpected. Yeah, you know, and I do see that a lot and I and I do feel that that generally, society are really supportive in a lot of ways, but there are unfortunately, as with everything, some people that that just massively disagree, and I think I think there's this whole thing about feminism, right, and that you can't be a feminist and support trans women. But in my opinion, you're not a feminist if you don't just support trans women, because women, you know like one percent of the population.
Speaker 3:How we're using them as a scapegoat for all of the other problems in the world is like, but that, but that's what, that's what's happening, and unfortunately, they're choosing a really vulnerable minority to do that too, and that's that's what I'm currently seeing is it is a kind of really big shift and a big change, right, I feel like trans people specifically, but non-binary people as well, are being scapegoated for some of the larger issues. You know it's not a person's fault that you can't afford to buy food for your family. It's not a trans person's fault that there's a housing crisis. You know that's got nothing to do with that. One percent, yeah.
Speaker 2:Already have a very challenging time existing in the world and I suppose that sort of feeds into some of the things you're I mean you're on your instagram. It reflects your strong advocacy for the lgbtq plus community and and the and, as you said, the social justice issues that are going on around us today. But when you're putting things out there because I obviously follow you and I go, wow, I didn't know that or I had no idea, and so learning from you, but how do you choose what to speak up about and why, and you know what is it about that particular thing that you go no, I'm gonna share this. Put this out there. What, what goes on for you, soph?
Speaker 3:I think part of it's like that feeling, you know, like when you see, you read something, you think that resonates with me. I don't always know why, but I think, okay, that's, that's like, that's really hit me, that's really impacted me, that, to me, is beautiful, and then I want to learn more about that and I want to know that I know what's going on right, and so a lot of it is like a research is kind of understanding what's going on, and I would hate to put misinformation out there or disinformation out there. That would be really bad. So it's about, yeah, seeing something that I think that resonates with me, that's important. Let's do a bit of research on that. Is that accurate information? I've seen accurate. What else can I share about it? And then I just can't try and put it out there and how do people respond?
Speaker 2:because obviously I don't obviously see all the comments. You might get back on it, but yeah, what's the sort of the mix of comments that you get back because you've spoken up or put it out there but you're not misinformation. I always know from you whatever you put out will be as thoroughly researched and right in inverted commas as it can be. But what sort of responses do you get?
Speaker 3:generally pretty good. Obviously, my following is predominantly queer anyway. So, like a lot of people, a lot of my friends are all part of the community themselves anyway. So it's you know it's unlikely that I'll get negative. But that's not just how it happened in the past. Certainly have you know, people have kind of gone.
Speaker 3:I don't agree with that, whatever I'm like. Well, you can't disagree with facts. You know what I mean. Like, if that is what it's like, you can't say that that's not true. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it's wrong. I think I really want people to have the space to feel like they can have discussions, because that's important, because ultimately, if we don't have discussions, if we don't open it up, we're not going to learn from that, yeah, and people that are otherwise shut off, you're not going to have a positive conversation. So that's that's kind of what I want, whilst recognizing that it's not a quiz person, where person doesn't have to do that. You know what I mean. But me too in you know in the position that I'm in. But you know, sometimes it's been kind of. You know we're not reaching a positive solution here and it's like I'm really happy to have those exploratory conversations and to and to do that until I feel like it's aggressive or like it's you're just here for an argument, you're not here to learn something, and that's.
Speaker 2:We don't need that yeah, and we definitely don't need that, and I think so if you've hit the nail on the head, because the people I've spoken to so far and Laura's also spoken to, you know interviewed some other people as part of this pride pod that we're doing, and that's the one thing that I've noticed has come through, you know, that ability to even want to learn and to be curious to understand. And you know, because I don't know everything, I learned from you as, as you know and I go, I did not know that and, and it's that ability, I think that's the thing that I've noticed is people's willingness to have an open mind and to just research, learn more, and then they may still make a judgment, they may not but that having that awareness and that level of, I suppose, understanding can make a huge difference. And I know you mentioned around, you know the work.
Speaker 2:Obviously, brighton was a big place that you worked at and you actually did a lot with those vulnerable communities down there, with the. You know the housing and the homelessness and everything that was going on there. But if you think about how that plays out for you, what did you notice that was different, or was it not different compared to, you know when you were working with the queer community, because everybody gets impacted by homelessness at some point, right, and it just doesn't mean who you are. But what did you notice when you were in that world? Because it was, I mean, the stories you used to share with us. Sometimes, well, you just blew my mind and it was really hard to get my head around that. But when you think about the intersections, as you say, between queer rights, housing, homelessness and the work, where do you think more work needs to be done?
Speaker 3:Certainly with queer kids, because you know there's a lot, there's a huge homelessness crisis in this country. Anyway, right, yeah, there is. Yeah, yeah, it's a massive, massive issue. As you know, I feel very strongly about homelessness you do. And it's a massive, massive issue. As you know, I feel very strongly about homelessness you do and to disagree with a lot more that we as a community can do, we as a society should do, and what the government should do as well. So there's, like it's a three-pronged approach. It's massive, the problem is huge and there's a lot of ways that we're failing these people because, ultimately, the person, in my opinion, the person you see on the street is is a family member. You know, that's someone's mum, that's someone's sister, that's someone's you know, sibling.
Speaker 3:It yeah, important and and we've lost that a little bit but I mean, what I found out working in in the homeless community in Brighton and Hove specifically, is that LGBT plus young children are massively, disproportionately, affected by homelessness. Right, you must have surprised to hear that, because you're in Brighton, you're in the gay capital, you know, but actually there's still a huge issue there because people come out to their parents and their parents say not my, not my child. Uh right, applications come in. So I was part of the young person supported accommodation panel and we'd get referred cases directly from city councils and that sort of thing and a lot of it. You know I was had to be listed as a vulnerability because affecting people you know their sexuality was was a huge issue in their kind of home life. But yeah, as I said, LGBT plus young people were disproportionately affected by homelessness and so we'd see a big, you know, community, especially trans children. You know we were having pretty young trans people coming into our accommodations having no contact with family or no support from family and in a way, we're lucky because we are in a very openly queer place. So that was great and obviously I'm very open about being queer myself.
Speaker 3:So, you know, engaging with with young people, that was easily done and it was, you know, it was obviously very intentional, with posters and everything. There was like a whole section that had, you know, information about how to be an ally and all these things. So so I think it felt like a safe place, hopefully for those young people straight away. But what we also saw was was young people that were questioning. I don't think they were questioning, it was just safer to say that they were questioning rather than saying, no, I am actually trans and that's that's how I identify, so we would see that as well. So we'd see not only, you know, young people that were questioning coming into the hostels, but but that number increasing of trans people that we have increasing steadily over time because they're feeling of safety that they could be the person that they were. So, yeah, so I'd see a steady kind of increase of LGBT plus young people living with us over time. So I think, yeah, people often assume that that's not the case.
Speaker 2:And it's really interesting. You're saying the community, you knowrian community, absolutely. You know it's a great gay capital, yet you would think the acceptance would be different. But obviously maybe I'm being naive, but I just think it's not accepted somewhere, anywhere, sometimes, even though you do come to a safe space, like people come to london because they think you know it's a great place to be and it's sometimes the worst place you could be as well and it's and it's. How do people who can find support and help, where can they even start to look for that support, especially if they're you know their families have just gone not my problem. Out you go and put you out on the streets. Where can, where can people find support or help?
Speaker 3:It's so hard and I think you can find some really good stuff in your area and there is stuff that's really good that's community-led. So there's often like community-based projects that are working, that are really really good and that I don't know. Chess club for gays on the tuesday, that was something that we'd like refer people to brilliant, yeah. So it's like little things like that, then all sorts that I mentioned earlier. They do a lot of work as well, but there's like gendered intelligence, there's mermaids, there's lots of really great places that you can go to access help and then sometimes, just by connecting, they can then say, actually we're doing something over here, oh, we're just doing this right and that's really good, like not a phase. For example, is another really really good charity that I've done a very minimal amount of work with um and yeah, they're fantastic, and so there's.
Speaker 3:There is a lot out there that you can access, but you've got to know where to look and if you're not in a safe place, that's hard to find. Yeah, you've just got to do a little bit of research and there are, there are things out there, but so much more needs to be done, I think, to see a community kind of led project that's done in community centers all across you know all of the boroughs. That would be fantastic and just to have like one lgbt night or something like that, yeah, create that safety, to create that space that young people specifically can go to and from to to feel part of their own community and not feel like so alone.
Speaker 2:You know it'll be so impactful yeah, and I think it's that that belonging is. We're like. You know, we all want to belong and if we feel that we're not, it is a very lonely place to be, and I suppose for you. I suppose asking you have you faced any challenges in the workplace that um around identity and how have you navigated them?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean. I think a lot, unfortunately, like when I've said historically that I'm married not in my current role but people kind of don't give my relationship the same legitimacy that they would a straight relationship Okay, tell us more. And things like oh, you know that response, you know. But if I was a straight woman and I said me and my husband are going out, they'd be like oh yeah, that's fine, you know, it's not questioned, yeah. But if I've said before, yeah, my spouse, I'm going out, they're like what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what do you mean? What do I mean you know? Like what do you think you know? And like it's important to me to, to be open, to be who I am and to be very confident in saying that, because not a lot of us can be, you know, or it's not always historically been safe to do that. So I'm very comfortable in doing that and I want to be that person to say, yeah, I'm in a you know, I'm in a different relationship with yours kind of thing, and people sometimes are it doesn't matter and that's the ideal reaction. But sometimes people, um, don't love it and they're quite happy to say, like, what do you mean? That doesn't shocking, that's shocking. I was like. What do you mean? It's shocking to you. It's the same as your relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just slightly different, just slightly different. Yeah, and I just want to pick up on that part because I know. Before we came on and started chatting, I said how do you want me to you know? Refer to your spouse. And I said is it wife? Wife? And you said no, it's spouse.
Speaker 3:So help people understand the difference as to what it is for them to be your spouse, okay so I'm married to someone that is non-binary, which sometimes for some people falls under the trans umbrella, and yeah, so my spouse, might they use pronouns, they them yeah, and for them it's much more comfortable to be referred to as spouse. So that's what we do. So I I'm happy personally to be wife or spouse or partner, like whatever. It doesn't really impact me. I think for someone that's non-binary, that's obviously really significant and the pronouns are really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, because I know everybody, as you said, look and go, yeah, and it's like they don't know what to say, how to say it and, as you said, it's just getting people understanding that there is differences everywhere. But find out, ask, be curious, get questions. I know, obviously, before we talked about your cancer diagnosis with Bracogene and I know you had some crazy experiences in that field at the time with you and your spouse. So, and when you think about now, when you reflect back on that because how long ago was that now? Three, four years, five years, oh, my goodness, five years ago, wow and when you reflect back on that and you think how has it changed? First of all, what was your experience, because it just was up really, and then do you think has, how has it changed what? First of all, what was your experience, because it just was up really? And then do you think it's changing in that that area, when you know people rock up with their spouse?
Speaker 3:I don't know, I don't know. So, yeah, you've heard this story before, but, um, yeah, we're in the room with a, with a surgeon, and we're talking about my surgery. So I had a bilateral double mastectomy with implant-based reconstruction and I well just thinking back on it like is this real life?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, did this happen?
Speaker 3:yeah. So I went into this room with my spouse and we were sitting down waiting to see a surgeon and he comes in and he's talking about my surgery and he's going, yeah, so you're going to look quite different when, when you've had the surgery, and I said, yeah, it's like quite a big surgery. I have thought about that, um. And he said, yeah, well, you know, you're not, you're not going to look kind of similar. And I said what are you trying to say? Just kind of tell me what you kind of try to say. And he said, well, your nipples, you, you're not going to have them anymore and that's going to look really different and I don't know how men are going to feel about that.
Speaker 3:So, when you are looking to kind of, you know, get a husband, you're, you're not gonna. That might be hard for you. And I was like, whoa, wow, so many things are wrong with that situation. Um, and I was like you've got a lanyard on. You know, you've got like one of the NHS rainbow lanyards on, you've got all the gear and no idea.
Speaker 3:Like I was like I cannot believe this. And I was like you know you're sitting there with with my spouse, that I've introduced you to the person I'm married to and obviously want to stay with. That's like an example of like my relationship not being legitimate in comparison to, uh, a stroke presenting relationship, because I'm pretty sure if I, if I was with my husband, that wouldn't have even come up true, but um, but anyway so and I was like, wow, so you obviously don't think that this is a legitimate relationship. You're obviously like a man's feelings over my feelings, which is really interesting and that plays a lot into like there's a lot of things that are said to like gay women, specifically bisexual women, pansexual women, you know, like you've just not found the right penis yet, which is genuinely something is that what gets said?
Speaker 3:yeah, what just not happen. And even like specific people being like you've just not had my penis. Yeah, that's what people said to me. I was like what do you mean? That is insane, that is mad okay wow about this doctor.
Speaker 3:So, like another um, that was quite triggering because I was like I've heard this in a different way in different situations before. Sure, I don't respect that um. And then, yeah, that was like it just complete lack of respect and understanding, that of what is going on. And it was so interesting to have my body centered around. You know, such such a huge, significant thing that was happening to me about body image and about changing um, to have that centered around a man's feelings was really, really challenging for me to hear and I think in that moment I kind of took a minute and I thought what's going on there? And, you know, cake next to me was like oh, how do you feel about that? I said not great, yeah, but I said so.
Speaker 3:And then I was like that's unacceptable. The way you speak to me is unacceptable. I don't want you to see me again and I certainly don't want you looking at my body again. Yeah, and the nurse there was a nurse in the room too, kind of like chaperoning, and she was like, yeah, literally okay. I was like do you think that's acceptable? Because you haven't said anything? You're sitting there gawping and I agree with you, but you haven't said anything, right, okay, and that's like that phrase silence is violence. You, you know, it's so true, like, yeah, that's something there in that moment and been supportive and been an ally, because you're also wearing the, you know, rainbow lanyards, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not doing anything, yeah, and actually that silence is violence thing. I think that is such, that's such a powerful statement, right? So, because how often and you must see this in your current role, right how often do you see that approach being taken so much?
Speaker 3:I think I don't always, you know, like blame the person that's not saying anything, because sometimes I don't know what to say. Yeah, sure, I'm scared of confrontation and some people don't know what to do, and I get that, you know. And I'm not saying that everybody needs to be on the warpath to talk about about stuff, because that's not, that's not everyone's prerogative and that's fair enough. But I think if you see injustice unfolding in front of you and you don't say something about it but you feel strongly, then I, I, I that's what I have an issue with. I think that if you see something that's unjust and you see something happening in front of you that is unacceptable, you know, I, I, I would encourage anybody to to stand up and to have a voice and to say something, because we are each other's support. Yeah, we have to be. Yeah, you know, part of the queer community is very supportive, like that you know, spoke to one of my queer friends in that way.
Speaker 3:I would say something about it you know to be rude.
Speaker 3:It's not like I'm gonna stand up and be like, oh, you've been awful, yeah, yeah, yeah about. It's like this phrase I'm not calling you out, I'm calling you in. I'm trying to bring you to this conversation about why what you've said is wrong. There's an educational piece, right, and some people don't want to hear that. I'm fine, you don't have to hear that right now, but even just to challenge someone is good enough, because they'll think about that again yeah, yeah, exactly, and I suppose that links into we never know what that impact that's going to have right on people.
Speaker 2:Like, obviously that experience you had with you know with that surgeon was appalling and that could have really impacted you. It did I'm not saying it didn't, but it did. But for somebody who isn't as self-aware and unapologetically themselves and very confident in who they are, super resilient and different things, that would have had a massive impact on them. And I know some of the work that you were doing around the person-centred, trauma-informed care that must have come up time and time again. And how does that play out in your work life now? Wow?
Speaker 3:So I think it's really important to me to be person-centred and to be trauma-informed. That's like the golden thread through everything that I do. Yeah, that be. You know my current role, my personal life, engaging with friends and family, like you have to be person-centered and that's the very crux of like trauma-informed support. Right, absolutely well, it's about that person. It's about understanding that there's some level of trauma, I think really realistically, in everyone. Yeah, you know, like with the person in front of you.
Speaker 3:So if you're looking at me and if you're speaking to someone that's vulnerable, that's dealt with, homelessness, that's possibly a prison leaver, that's also queer on top of that, that's going to add that extra layer of complexity, especially if, for example, like if we're talking about a black trans woman, her experience of life is going to be so significantly different to everybody else's, it's fundamentally unsafe. I mean, the last time I checked, the statistic is that a black trans woman will live until she's 30 years old because she will either take her life before then or be killed by someone she knows before then Wow, by her partner. I don't know if that has changed. So I mean that's something I probably want to research again, but sure that's wow, that's horrific.
Speaker 3:We're talking about human lives here. Do you know what I mean? It's it's like awful. I can't comprehend that, you know yeah and so when, when you're having conversations with people that are significantly vulnerable, you have to be trauma-informed and you have to be person-centered, because you're not going to get, firstly, the information to support that person, but they're not going to want to open up to somebody that doesn't really care, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:or doesn't even understand the words that are coming out of their mouth, the impact they're having.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, exactly that's that's important to me in every single job I've had is to have that approach, and I'm I'm lucky because I've got really significant training in that. So I, you know I do understand that really fully and I and I try to embody that in everything, and certainly in my current role. You know, I'm still around people that are really vulnerable, that do really struggle, and a lot of that is due to historic trauma that manifests in a different way. Yeah, it manifests when you get a bit older. So if you've got, like some level of adverse childhood experience, let's say it's often that that is then reflected later on in life in some social behavior or, you know, some level of prison experience because the coping mechanisms aren't there, and that's that's significant and that I see a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean I'm with you. It should always be about the individual, right. However they present to you, it's yeah, they are human underneath. Whatever you might think, they are still a person that has a heart that beats right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah very important to lead with compassion and empathy to do that and you have to be open to that as well. And don't get me wrong you know like in the days where I've worked with homeless people, there's some like objectively terrible people that I've worked with. If you want to, you know people that have done really, really terrible things and have behaved in a way that is just entirely unacceptable. Um, but at the time it was my job to work with that person because ultimately, I don't want that person to go out into the world and to cause that problem again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've got you to see some level of compassion and empathy for them as a person, kind of almost regardless, but also totally, regarding the thing that they've done. Yeah, they. I see you in your fullest. I see you and from what you've done, and I think that you have the best version of yourself inside you somewhere. We just need to get to it, because I don't you want to be bad, yeah yeah, exactly in inverted commas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I'm focused on that, a lot of power in vulnerability, but there's a lot of power in having that conversation and just saying that's where I'm at and it's not being afraid to have that conversation, is it with you know?
Speaker 2:just to say, you know, I have no idea. Help me understand. Even you know what's going on for you and I don't walk in your shoes, so I need to have empathy to to even aim to understand what's going on, with that ability to be curious and non-judgmental, I suppose, and, as I say, just treat people as a human being. But it's interesting. So, if I want to go back to what you said, your family, your mum, you know, brilliant. So who inspired you growing up or today, to live, I suppose your authenticity authentically you, that's the word I'm looking for. Authenticity authentically you, that's the word I'm looking for. An advocate so fiercely, wow.
Speaker 3:I don't know, that's a really difficult question, but it's a really nice one, I think. Do you know what it's so funny? I'm going to say this, carl oh, okay, one though, because Carl, as you know, kind of like me, we've always just been who we are, yes, and we can't help that. I think we're just. It's just, we've always just been who we are, yes, and we can't help that. I think we're just. It's just, we've just fostered that for each other. And we literally had this conversation the other night, didn't we about? We did authenticity and about being who you are and then finding your people. And Carl is, is my people, is one of my people, um, and I think we've always just been who we are and we've always had that experience and it's it's never changed. So he was a massive part of my life and still is. But growing up, it was me and Carl and we were who we were and that was fine you know it was never.
Speaker 3:It was never anything that was was wrong or was a problem because of us. And so and I love how Carl looks at the world and sees the world often in a different perspective than I have, because he, I suppose, like you, like me, wants everyone else to live their authentic life. So you feel very safe and supported in that environment with him, and so, yeah, he was a huge part of that. It was, yeah, it's completely fine. My mum, on the other hand, is also very much who she is. What you see is what you get, and I love her.
Speaker 3:I think that's really powerful and she kind of made me feel like that was okay for me to feel like that, despite her not being gay. I thought, well, she says she is who she is and she's absolutely I would describe her as unapologetic, as you know, definitely, and that's great and so like, okay, she's like that, so I'm gonna be like that. You know, I've never not had that, so I'm really lucky because I have had that in my life. Yeah, you've had good role models as well, exactly, and then, kind of, when you see that representation on tv and you see people and you think, okay, they're who they are and they're really strong about it, and you know there's a lot of people that I follow on Instagram and on social media that are you know, completely unapologetically who they are, and I and I intentionally follow people like that, obviously, because I'm like that's what I want to see, you know.
Speaker 3:I don't want to see stuff that's going to make me feel bad about who I am, so I'm not. Yeah, those accounts I'm going to follow people that are, that are unapologetic, that are part of the queer community, that are spreading awareness, that are doing that social justice yeah to me well yeah, you know, and I've and I've got amazing queer friends. You know, I've got really, really special, amazing queer people in my life. That that's inspired me every day yeah, and I love that.
Speaker 2:and I suppose you know, if we think about what advice you would give for anybody listening in who might have you know, who might be of a younger generation or might have their own children, and they think, wow, I've never even considered any of this. Um, what advice would you give to a younger, queer people who want to make a difference in their communities or public service? What advice would you give them? Just do it, just do it.
Speaker 3:I love it, like if you have an idea that you think is good, then it's probably good, right, it's worth yeah, it's worth sharing and then just do something about it. Nice, someone get, get, get on it go get on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't, don't stop, yeah, don't stop.
Speaker 3:Why should you? If you think it's a good idea, then why isn't it? Yeah, they take it to someone. If you've got connections with someone, try and see if they're interested. Build that traction, build that um, you can do with it. Yeah, something so small, right? You know such a tiny thing actually is huge to somebody else, so you never know the impact that you might truly have on someone yeah, and I think that's really important, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and and that ability to know that you can, because you can, and have that belief which you obviously had instilled in you from a young age to go yeah, you can do whatever you want to do and you can be whoever you want to be and just be you, and I think that's so powerful, and I'm conscious that not everybody has that growing up. As we are sort of celebrating Pride Month, what are you celebrating this Pride Month? I think?
Speaker 3:in line with what I spoke about earlier about the Supreme Court stuff, I'm really wanting to highlight and celebrate our trans family and our non-binary families. I think really, really important. I'm really excited to go to Trans Pride this year with my spouse and really feel that spirit together with other people. But, yeah, I think we really need to spotlight and, yeah, hold in really high regard our trans siblings and our non-binary siblings, because they need it so much right now. Yeah, it does. It takes people that are not in that community to stand up for them. Now we really need to be the full, fullest allies and and be that force for change for them and with them. You know, like hand in hand, and do that and do whatever we can to uplift that specific part of our community they really need the most right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so, and, as you said, it doesn't matter, it's the support, the human beings you know. At the end of the day, why would you not care? But hey, not all of us function that way, right? So one last question I suppose I would love to ask you, soph, because as always, you have such a wide breadth and depth of knowledge and I know I learn from you when we have conversations. But is there a moment, big or small, that made you feel especially proud to be who you are?
Speaker 3:Oh, my word. Yeah, I think there is one that really sticks in my mind about this conversation that I was having with a young person. So I'm at work with a young person. They're really struggling. We know that there's been a lot of risk related to them and it's like really significant risk. So we're really worried.
Speaker 3:I'm thinking, okay, we need to have a breakthrough at some point. We need to know what's going on with this young person. Yeah, this is important for, like, their life moving forward. So we're just sitting down, we're just talking. We're just talking and I'm like right, enough of this shit. I mean, let's, let's strip it back to what's important. Let's just be real. Let's just have a real, genuine conversation. We're humans, we're flawed. What is going on with you? You know, and I and I said this is a bit about me, this is the stuff I've experienced in my life, you know, know, this is who I am, this is my authentic self, and I think that moment of vulnerability and real kind of raw conversation then allowed for them to open up Right and say, yeah, this is what I'm experiencing.
Speaker 3:And I was like, okay, breakthrough, yeah, breakthrough moment. Now you can do something with that right Exactly. And I was like there is so much we can now do because I know I have possession of the information that means I can help you and I want to help you and you're worth helping, so let's do that. And those kind of amazing conversations I've been able to have with young people. But that specific young person, I was like wow, I feel really proud of that Because I think what got us there was being open about our sexuality and having that shared experience, that shared understanding, being open about our sexuality and having that shared experience, that shared understanding.
Speaker 3:And there is this like kinship that comes from that. You do feel like, oh, yeah, we're a little bit more connected because you're part of my community. Yeah, I've got you because you're part of part of me and I'm part of you in a lot of ways, and so that enabled us. That. That went further than me being a professional and then being a young person. It was just like a moment of we're just people, we're connecting on a deeper level about something this is genuine. Yeah, that felt in that moment, felt really powerful, and then we're like do some really great stuff after that. So that's the moment I feel like it was really big yeah that it sounds like it.
Speaker 2:I've got goosebumps as you were saying that, because having the confidence to even go cut out the bullshit let's's just call it as it is what is going on and get under the surface just enabled that person because you shared to go. It's safe to do that, and I think that's what's really admirable about having having the kahunas to even have that conversation. Sometimes it makes such a difference. As you said, you'll never, you never know who you're going to impact on right and who needs to hear it when they need to hear it. So to finish this off, soph, we always have a call to action on our pod. So if there was a call to action from you, what would you give us as a call to action?
Speaker 3:Wow, Such a nice question. Thanks, go on. I think it's about the celebration of difference. That's really powerful. So I'd say we need to celebrate our differences, but we need to protect our community, truly protect our community, wow.
Speaker 2:That is. I think we should put that on another tattoo for you, and I'm sure Laura will say I should have that as well. But I think you know, all jokes aside, that is so simple but really, really powerful, right, yeah? And it's not hard, is it? No, it's not no, but we make it hard, don't we? In life? Yeah Well, soph, I want to just say how do people obviously we've mentioned you're on Instagram, but how else? How can they find you? Because obviously, the work you do just doesn't sit in a you know 40 minute chat with you and me. I mean, you do loads of you know other work around that. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3:I mean it's probably the best place. To be honest, okay, yeah, so I'd say instagram is probably the best place. I'm more kind of like active on there than I am anywhere else. Yeah, okay, I'm in the street. If I have a chat, I'm happy. Yeah, I mean, I'm nice, my large Elton John glasses, but um, yeah oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:And what's your? What? How do they find you on Instagram? Because I can never remember your, your little, whatever it is.
Speaker 3:Fia Bennett, but Bennett's got like five.
Speaker 2:T's just to confuse everyone okay, so say that out again. Fia Bennett Fia Bennett f-i-a-i-a-b-e-n-n-e-t-t-t-t-t. Yeah, not as many as that. Yeah, I love that. So I mean, as always, it's a pleasure and it was a no brainer for us to get you to speak about this, because, as I know, you know, I've had personal experience of the way that you do advocate and you do share, and I've learned a huge amount from you that I had very little awareness of, and I just want to say, you know, thank you for sharing and not being afraid to so to you know, to spend time chatting to us as well, and I hope you know I really appreciate that from you, soph. So thank you.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. I love, love this podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh, cool, and we'll see you on another one, I'm sure, hopefully. Thanks, soph, have a good one. Bye, so, law, what did you think?
Speaker 1:I feel really inspired by listening to Soph and actually I think my listening to just how fiercely passionate and empathetic it provides almost an opportunity to have a bit of a mirror moment of thinking. Actually, where have there been some scenarios where maybe I've missed whether it was intentional or accidentally opportunities to be an ally and to sort of do the right thing in that moment? So I found that, yeah, really just that, the protectiveness as well as the empathy, that's just what came out. I just thought, yeah, it's about doing the right thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's really simple, isn't it? It's just that do the right thing, and I love that. When she quoted that lanyards are not enough, and I just thought how right is that Just because you wear that, lanyards are not enough, and I just thought how right is that Just because you wear a lanyard doesn't make any difference.
Speaker 1:Oh, but Deb, that story she shared is horrifying. I had to listen to it again. Actually, I just I couldn't believe that in this day and age there was, in a professional environment, there was that level of closed-mindedness and fixed perception as to what it means to be in a relationship. I just couldn't believe that that happened. I can't imagine what that felt like at the moment.
Speaker 2:I can't imagine how it must have felt, but I really thank her for sharing that because that was so personal and very real. So her ability to show her own vulnerability to us, I think was just very privileged to have heard that. But I think that sort of leads into my call to actually share the secret around your ally moment when have you found your person? I'll use Soph's words there when have you found your person? So what we'd love you to do is if you share with us your moment to do is if you share with us your moment, your picture or quote or a memory or a story about your ally moment where you found your person. We'd love you to put that on our Instagram or post it up there, which is at secrets from a coach or one word, just to see what types of experiences you've had as the listeners out there as well. That's what we would love you to do.
Speaker 1:And, I think, inspired a little bit by that story because it just really stuck with me.
Speaker 1:My call to action would be if someone in your friendship or colleague network has the type of role where they're interacting with people in a vulnerable moment so maybe they're a service, they deal with service users, or a frontline position, or where you're dealing with people who need your help and, like Sophie was in that moment with a white coat and she needed help, and just that impact that can have I mean, that's the story that just sits and, you know, would have had some sort of knock-on effect with it.
Speaker 1:And yeah, and again, it's just a bit of an opportunity to learn and refresh. And maybe there are some scripts and the questions that you've asked that 20 years ago might have flown and then now it just doesn't fly quite so, quite so easily. And, yeah, do you want to keep knowingly, um, excluding someone and downplaying someone's experience in that moment? And, um, you know, or do you not? Do you want to open your mind up and then look at some ways to do it differently? So, yeah, my call to action would be if you know someone who's got a type of role where they are handling people in quite sensitive moments. What are some things that just get you know a couple of stories that we can stick in our minds and mean we're a little bit more mindful.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, so thanks. Sophie, that was really inspiring yeah, it was always love talking to Soph and I think that's um for me, it was about just the awareness of how do we protect the community. You know and and help and support and you know, understand and be enable people to be their authentic self. So, yeah, I hope your week is very authentic as well, law, and you have a good one absolutely plastered up to the nines in makeup.
Speaker 1:I mean the amount of products that go into me looking natural, debs.
Speaker 2:I would never have known. Honestly, Laura, seriously, You're shining bright there. I love that. Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Filter.
Speaker 2:Well, filter or not, have a great week won't?
Speaker 1:you. I'm looking forward to our fourth and final guest that we've got um in a week's time, and then we're going to do our bonus. Fifth episode, where we wrap it all up all in the spirit of what can we learn?
Speaker 1:and and also, pride doesn't. It isn't for just for june, it's like a dog's, just not for christmas. Pride isn't just for june. Um, what are some things that we can take so we bring on some positive momentum and progress. So thanks again to Soph. So, devs, love you lots. Have a fab week you too. Laura, love you lots. Bye, bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work. Thank you.