.JPG)
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
242. Pride and Cultural Identity: The Audacity to Thrive
In the fourth episode of our Taking Pride series where we hear from different community perspectives, we’re joined by the inspiring Bhavna Raithatha—also known as the Mindset Ninja—for a powerful conversation about Pride, resilience, and the layered experiences of cultural identity.
Bhavna shares her personal journey of overcoming trauma, navigating bullying, and embracing her 'tri-cultural' identity with grace and grit. With warmth and wisdom, she unpacks the emotional toll of societal expectations, the pressure of representation, and the deep need for community support in finding a sense of belonging.
Through honest reflections and thought-provoking insights, Bhavna highlights how mindset, collaboration, and empathy are vital tools for personal and professional growth. We explore how leaders can show up with courage, practice authentic allyship, and create safer spaces where people feel seen, supported, and free to be themselves.
This episode is an invitation to explore the richness of cultural education, the strength of self-exploration, and the importance of embracing our whole selves—especially during Pride and beyond. As Bhavna says: Lay down your fear. Do it Scared.
Join the conversation on Instagram @secretsfromacoach and share what helps you stay grounded, open, and inclusive on your own journey.
You can connect with Bhavna via her LinkedIn profile and here is a link to her book Driven: The Audacity to Thrive. Navigating and Redefining Wellbeing in Your Business and Life
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, are you all right? Yeah, I'm doing really well. How are you? How's your week been?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been a busy, busy week, as always. It's like you know, I can't complain One day at a time. As we always say at the moment Law One day at a time. We get there. What about yours?
Speaker 1:Oh, it's been fab. I went to the amazing three-day SoFest oh, yes, yes, you did run by the incredible kirsty lewis school of facilitation and just to be able to meet new people and get new perspectives. It's almost like you get a chance to refresh, reset, yeah and uh, you know, it does make you look at things a little bit differently about how certain people might behave in certain ways and it gives you a bit of compassion. I think, through that, that, that knowledge and just learning about which, I guess, is the real kind of heartfelt intention that underpins our five-part focus, looking at all things to do with pride, values and everyday action how can we learn from different perspectives, different people, to enable us to be able to not just tolerate but thrive in this multicultural, multi-identifying society that we're in all in the pursuit of great workplaces as we head towards 2030.
Speaker 2:Definitely. I know you were buzzing from that. It is always good to meet different people and I suppose you know our guests, our last guests on this series, actually, before we give you a bonus episode and we might have some exciting news at the end, because it was such a popular topic and we had quite a few people wanting to chat to us about it, didn't we Laure. So we may be extending it into July because, as we know, I think, as you'll hear from our guest Sophie and also from Ollie, the lanyard is just not enough. So it's all right to just do it one month, but it's the continuation. So, yeah, listen out for what we're going to be doing at the end and after this.
Speaker 2:But that sort of leads on to Bhavna, really, who we've got today. And, as you sort of said, you know I've been following Bhavna for a long time purely because of her title of the Mindset Ninja. That got my attention first of all and had followed what she does and listens to what she speaks about, and I just think it sort of encapsulates everything that we were doing. So we were very fortunate to have a bit of a conversation with her, weren't we Laura? So should we listen in to see what she had to say.
Speaker 1:Can't wait.
Speaker 2:Welcome everyone. As you know, our series this month is all about pride and pride values and what does that mean for everyday people and how we can actually raise the awareness and education around some topics that people find really challenging to talk about or even accept or even want to explore more. And, as you can see, I am joined by the amazing Bhavna, who is known as the Mindset Ninja, which I absolutely love, and we're going to get her to tell us a little bit more about that in a bit, but Bhavna specializes in helping leaders, entrepreneurs and professionals enhance their performance, build resilience and prioritize self-care. So, bhavna, tell our listeners a little bit more about you, because that is a well. I love Mindset Ninja, but tell us where that came from.
Speaker 4:It's such an honor and pleasure to join you. Thank you for having me Pleasure so Mindset Ninja, goodness me. I've been doing this for 30 years. I started in education adult education because they wouldn't let me on the master's because I was too young. So I thought not wasting a year. Okay, they did my teacher training and I noticed from the young people who were returning to education so I was dealing mainly with adults and I realized how damaged their mindsets were. Okay, and not in a negative sense, but just an observation that they'd been told that they're not good enough. They've been really discouraged and put down, you know, and when that is done repeatedly, the self-fulfilling prophecy arises, as you well know. It does yes, and that must be really hard.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, because so many had dropped out of education in their teens. Wow, you know, there was abuse going on, there was pregnancy. They had to drop out, they missed out on education and it is a vortex of hell. Yeah, you know, because you miss out on so much. And I noticed that and I thought, oh no, not on my shift, not on my watch.
Speaker 2:I love that. What did you do then? Because that 30 plus years ago, this topic and we're talking about pride, but it was there but not really talked about, and we never really understood. You know, I was back in the education system back in the 70s as well, so it just wasn't even addressed if somebody was dropping out, was it? So how did you deal with? Not deal with that? That's the wrong word. How did you deal with not deal with that? It's the wrong word. How did you work with that?
Speaker 4:oh, I reminded them who they were. Ah, okay, okay. So I taught psychology, yeah, at the GNVQ health and social care level, and part of my teaching is about reminding people who they were when they were born. Yes, yeah, and I use the analogy of a diamond Okay, okay, one of the most precious things in the world, coveted by all. And I reminded them that they are more precious than diamonds because there is none other like them in all of our human history. And, yes, we all have all of the facets on board, but not all of them are polished. Yes, that's a good point, all right. And a diamond is polished by another diamond? Okay, and it happens through friction, yeah, and friction is going to hurt like hell if, if anybody's ever had a carpet burn oh times that by a hundred.
Speaker 4:Wow, yes, that's very true, yeah and that that discord, that breakdown, is essential so that we can rebuild ourselves. Yeah, it is, and it is so important, isn't it? It, it is essential, it is essential. Yeah, and the thing is, we need to go all the way down to the original programming. Okay, and I'm mixing my metaphors to hell, so forgive me don't you worry, we love a mix, so fantastic early morning cocktails.
Speaker 4:So that was what I wanted to impress upon them, more than any other thing they would ever learn in their lives. Yeah, okay, I don't let anyone tell you who you are. Easier said than done, right, very much so, because everybody's told them who they are. That's why they're sitting in front of me exactly.
Speaker 4:You know my students, my clients, my leadership, everyone yeah at some point has had a negative person or people or culture or situation, programming who they are? Yeah, definitely Okay. And that programming can be very corrupt and that basic programming affects everything we do. So you know, every app that we open within ourselves, if the basic code is screwed, damaged, tainted, the apps are going to malfunction. So you may rock up as a leader, as a CEO, as a you know VF or whatever. Pick your alphabet. That doubt within you and your heart is fluttering every time you're in a meeting, thinking when will I be called out? When will they see who I really am? When will I be marched out by security? Okay, that happens, it happens all the time that.
Speaker 2:That's the bit that always scares me, because I know you. You say I. I'm intrigued to know when did you actually take that and own that mindset, ninja, as your own? When did you go right, I'm having that and what was the point for you?
Speaker 4:dear god that the, the moniker, is a few years old yes, but it's so powerful still. Yes, oh yes but I owned that, you know know, taking responsibility, taking my power back very early on, very early on, because I had a murder attempt when I was at uni in the first term. Wow Okay. Okay, because over the summer holidays I worked with somebody who decided that, oh actually, I really really like you and you are going to be my wife.
Speaker 2:Nice Okay.
Speaker 4:Yes, and I was like no, no, absolutely not. And so I was stalked. And then, you know, he rocked up at uni and pulled petrol on me and tried to flambé me. Wow, okay, and at the time there was no trauma counseling, there wasn't anything like that. We're talking 1992, right, yeah, yeah, so that was my first term of uni. So there I was trying to deal with this incident that could have ended my life, while trying to really refocus my mindset and focus on my studies and my exams and passing, because you know, being Indian, you have a much higher standard too.
Speaker 4:So you know I didn't get a chance to process that trauma. You know it was packaged and, yeah, I'm still standing. All good, let's carry on okay okay. So you know from that, from all of the other stages, from being told no, you're too young to do the masters and wasting a year of my life being told that you're too young, you don't have enough life experience, right it's like please would you like to ask me what my life experience is yeah not just assumptions yeah, yeah, yeah, assumptions, yes, okay and and actually that that rejection was more traumatic because for me it was like oh my god, I'm wasting a year of my life, right, okay, okay, because my original academic trajectory was to go into medicine and to heart surgery.
Speaker 4:Okay, because I lost my dad to a heart attack when I was nine, right, okay, we got the phone call. And we were here and he was back home in Africa. Oh, wow, okay. So we got that 6am we were here and he was back home in Africa. Oh, wow, okay. So we got that 6am phone call. He's gone when, yeah, he's passed. And so instantly widow with three children.
Speaker 2:Wow, okay, that's a lot.
Speaker 4:So then I, at the age of eight and a half, stepped into the role of co-parent. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:And that's a huge responsibility. It is a huge responsibility. As an eight-year-old. Yeah, it's massive. Yeah, and I suppose, looking back now at that, what were some of the norms in inverted commas that was expected of you as an eight-year-old then?
Speaker 4:Go and pay the bills to the london electricity city board. British guests, go and do the shopping right. Um, take care of the siblings. Not allowed to play out because there was a lot of racism and there was a lot of, um, you know, bullying and violence. Okay, we had dog poop shoved down the letterbox. We had people weeing through the letterbox. Wow Okay. And I wish I could go back and just snap the letterbox now. That would have been a tiny little bit of justice.
Speaker 2:That would have been. But hey, yes, that is when you stop and think about that and you talk about that now. What were some of the things that you look back on now and go, wow, at the time, horrendous. No one should be put through that at all, no one. But we always say, don't we, that there is always some level of learning from that or awareness that gets pre-used.
Speaker 4:So what was yours? Resilience, right, okay, yeah, you know, rather than you know, sit in a corner just rocking and overwhelmed. I got angry Right and overwhelmed, I got angry right, and for me it was like no, no, no, no, you know, you do not do this to me. I, I will deal with whatever comes to me, but to the babies, yeah no, no, yeah, that's a no no absolutely not and and I will push back harder than you've stepped forward Protecting Absolutely.
Speaker 4:There was a girl who bullied me every single day in the new school and she would take my dinner money so I didn't have food, wow Okay, and I didn't know what else to do because there was her henchwoman. It was like they looked like a really badly drawn cartoon Got you.
Speaker 2:It's like the Queen Bee and Wannabe book, isn't it? There's that book that's called that. Yeah, yeah Get in the clan yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay, and I was horrifically abused. You know, she would take me to the end of the playground, where the teachers were not, and get the boy to put his hand down my top and grope me, wow, okay, okay, and hold my hands behind my back and kiss her shoes. Right, wow, that's appalling. Okay, and there was no one I could tell, because I couldn't go home and tell my mom because she was traumatized and bereaved Already, okay, and she was traumatised and bereaved Already, okay, and she was working for an organisation, not an organisation a warehouse in Allgate. Okay, yeah, okay, and she was literally being treated like a slave, right by the Asian owners. So we don't have to go far. Sometimes it's your own that's screwing you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's really hard, isn't it it? Because when you, I think, when you come into this world, you have this wide-eyed oh my goodness. And then over time, and everybody suffers trauma at some point in their life and, as you said it, it just sort of chips away at that diamond, doesn't it, and dulls it even more with the different things.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, how you shine through that, absolutely thinking about you and your obviously the work that you do now, and surrounded around your identity and what that means and in this topic, we're talking about queer identity as well. But what does, what role does cultural and queer identity play in shaping the well-being, mental well-being, the leadership of people, potential? How does that play out now? Based on your experience? You obviously went into, obviously, therapy, supported yourself, supporting others, being that voice, making sure that nobody should be treated that way, and I can understand the resilience and and how we always end up in these sort of environments, don't we? Because we want to help people. Ultimately. That's why I ended up doing what?
Speaker 2:I did because I don't like injustice or unfairness and treat everybody as an equal. But obviously we know the world's not like that. But for your experience going into that world and then moving through into your identity of people and cultural and queer identity identification what, how does that play a role? Tell?
Speaker 4:us more about that. Oh my goodness, it plays a massive role because again we go back to the operating system. Our culture informs who we are.
Speaker 2:Yes, of course, like they said, you're going to be my wife. Yes, yeah, yeah, back in the day. Yeah, an assumption.
Speaker 4:That's it. That's it. But I've had pushback from communities from around the world. Right, yeah, you know, because the the second, an indian person or a black person, talks about culture and community. It's like, well, we have this too. It's like, dude, you know, sit, breathe, okay, I'm not talking about a specific culture, I'm talking about culture generally. Yeah, yes, you know, for the human species, because all of us have the good bits and the bad bits. Yeah, okay, and you know, our greatest power is in collaboration and community but why is it so hard?
Speaker 2:why is it so hard? Oh my god, it it again. I mean, I know we haven't we've only got a few hours to talk about that. We haven't, we've only got a little while. But this is a massive I appreciate that's a massive question, it is a massive question.
Speaker 4:Why is it hard? Because people are frightened, people are comparisonitis. Yes, that's nice, okay, yeah, okay, and we could do a whole series on it. We definitely could, right, if we step back and just have a global perspective, a supervision, for example, it's comparisonitis. Yeah, you know, trying to keep up with the Joneses, but who the hell are the Joneses and who are they trying to keep up with Exactly? And who says they're right? You know so it's that sort of magpie shiny thing syndrome. Yeah, and we forget that we are the shiny thing.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that we are, yeah, and we forget that we are the shiny thing. Oh, I love that we are. And it's when it gets squished or dulled it's that can be really difficult to come back out of that and I, probably from you, know your own experience, as you mentioned, sort of as an Indian woman as well how, how, what impact has that had on you over your lifetime to get you where you are today? Dear God.
Speaker 4:So I was born in East Africa, so I had my Indian culture and my grandparents were shipped over by, you know, the British Raj. Yeah, okay. And I don't know any of my history beyond my grandmother Right, okay, because she was married off at 12. Right, okay, yeah, okay. So she was a child when she was brought across as a bride Right, wow, you know she used to sit and speak with me, that I used to go to sleep with my doll oh gosh, heartbreaking, you know. And as a therapist, with the work I've done with sexual abuse and childhood abuse, yeah, that eviscerated me. Yeah, I bet.
Speaker 4:You know, because that's my blood. Yeah, right, so I had that Africanized Indian culture. I had my African culture. Yeah, you know that that was, and will always be, home. Yeah, I've been here, you know, 40 plus years. Yeah, I turned 53 last week. So, you know, from the age of eight I've been here, you know, and when I open my mouth people think I'm a plummy middle, you know, middle class English lady. Yeah, okay, all right, and I've had incidences where people have looked at me and and of like, oh, it's you.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is Okay, double take. Yes, it's me yeah absolutely.
Speaker 4:So, you know, that's one level. Then, coming to the UK and being part of the UK community, you know. So that's three cultures that I've had to adapt and attune to so that I can fit in. I'm not here to come and change things and build my own kingdoms. You know, my guru's teaching is wherever you go in the world, be a good citizen, serve your community. So this is my community and I am serving to the best of my ability. Yeah, of course, right, yes, so that that that's the cultural element. So when I go into an organization, I can see the world sitting in front of me. You know people, beautiful people, who've given up so much to be here, like I did. Yeah, right, my friends, my home, my father, my, you know, little family that I had. Yes, you know, my place is my route to school through the little forest. Yeah, you know all of those little things that we take for granted, yeah, true, you know, those become almost touchstones of grief, yes, of loss, yeah, of things that we have to incorporate.
Speaker 2:And then we think the impact that then has on our mind health yes, it is huge and our own general sense of well-being and belonging.
Speaker 4:I suppose that's the thing Absolutely Acceptance and belonging. Yeah, exactly how have you?
Speaker 2:navigated that? Because, as you said, people hear your, as you said, plummy accent and then you show up and they go oh, that's not what I was expecting. How have you navigated?
Speaker 4:that it's not been easy. I can imagine there's been a lot of rejection. You know, when I worked in retail, my goodness me, you know, I had a manager here shouting at me and literally spitting in my face and foaming at the mouth, you know, because I was serving a customer and for me, you know, customer service was God, because that's what you're paying me for and it's about making sales at the end of the day. You know, I was just a plebby, 13 year old, yeah, but that level of excellence. You know. My formative education was in Africa, in a Catholic school. Right, okay, okay. So, yeah, up there Standards. Yeah, we didn't have the opportunity to be little kids. My first class in the UK, uk junior school, I walked in and the teacher was showing me around and they were making paper lanterns, right.
Speaker 2:I like died.
Speaker 4:Blew your mind, right okay, honestly, I nearly died. I think I cried because it was like, oh god, this is baby stuff. Right, got you? Yeah, right, and I'm eight and a half. I, I am a bloody baby. Yeah, yes, but because of that education and you know, we were expected to be at a very high level. And here, you know, you've got eight and a half and I'm there, sort of 16, 17.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say that's a big gap, isn't it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I was forced to bring it down, okay, and and and I. That's one of my greatest regrets, right, okay, to this day it is my greatest regret because I lost all of that by having to come down yeah, got you, okay, you know, and and and, then sort of build up again, yeah, when I shouldn't have had to.
Speaker 2:You know, today we have the gifted and talented, talented strands in school yeah, exactly, you know, I would have been on the super highway, yes, but back then that wasn't a thing, was it no, no, goodness me so how did I manage it?
Speaker 4:I did the best, I knew how, while trying to juggle a culture that said to me Paki, go home, right, yeah, that through dog poo in my yeah, through your door and stuff you know that almost broke my nose because I stood up for my little brother who was being bullied.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that had this girl, you know, follow me home every day after school and say if you tell anyone, I'm going to kill you and I'm going to kill your brothers, right, you know it's like wow. Now I look back and and I would have loved to sit her down and say are you all right? What's going on? Yeah, exactly, okay. The bizarre thing was when I started lecturing, one of my jobs was intake. Right, okay, one intake. She was sitting in front of me applying to be on my course. No way, wow, okay, okay. And it took me a minute to sort of bring it down and remind myself that, excuse me, madam, yeah, who are you today? You are not that child. Yeah, wow, wow, okay. Yeah, who are you today? You are not that child. Yeah, wow. And to look into those eyes, wow, you know, I could have taken revenge at that moment and really given her a hard time.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but that's not who I was.
Speaker 2:No, and also you took, as we said in coaching, is that you take people as they arrive on that day. In that that moment don't you and, as you said, we didn't you wouldn't have known what the backstory was for that individual. You knew your backstory but, as you said, you could have gone one of two ways in that moment to it's a choice, it is a choice. I think that's it, isn't it? It's a choice, yeah.
Speaker 4:And it's what do we do with that choice? This is it. And the thing is, we all have choice. Yeah, we do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a big believer in that we all have choice.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we can choose this path or that path and we can make excuses for each one, okay, but it takes a lot of strength, I think more than anything else to you know, despite wanting to punch their lights out, to not punch their lights out, and that's just humanity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is.
Speaker 4:Yes, you know, that's just humanity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and some people will yeah, some people will go down that and not think of the consequences of that and and I suppose you know, coming from your background, your culture, your learnings, having to adapt to three different cultures in one term, yeah, and this expectation of, as an Indian woman, you would get married to a man and raise a family, and and and. But that wasn't your story, was it?
Speaker 4:No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2:Do you want to share with us what your story was?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you know, my mom isn't a traditional Indian woman. Okay, there are traditional elements. Because of her trauma, because of how she was, you know, she had what we call a love marriage, so she chose who she wanted to marry, okay Okay. But her mother-in-law was, you know, cruella Deville times a million. She was a nasty, nasty lady. She hated us, she hated my mother. She would humiliate her in town. When you live in a small community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everybody's watching.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So she is not a traditional woman who says you know you must, is not a traditional woman who says you know you must. But, bizarrely, I was raised to be a good daughter, a good daughter-in-law, a good housewife, a good mother, you know, and I've never, ever wanted to be a mother. I raised my siblings and I did my duty to the world.
Speaker 2:You did that at a young age.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I lost my and I lost my childhood. Yeah, I lost my childhood, you know. So it took me a long time to learn to socialize and, you know, communicate with other human beings, and I've made my business communication with other human beings.
Speaker 2:Literally. That's what you now do, isn't it All the time? Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and you know, one of my keynotes and one of my trainings is how to survive as a triculture kid. Yeah, yeah, okay, because you're going to have triculture kids and, you know, double culture kids and quad culture kids sitting in your offices as your employees, navigating this, that and the other. You need to know how to interact with them and make them a part of your organization. Yes, rather than being treated like an Indian, why are you eating that? Why are you doing that that way? Why are you wearing this this way? Why are you wearing that perfume? Yeah, why are you saying that word this way? Uh, because, darling, this is not my mother tongue.
Speaker 2:This is my third language yeah, yes, and it's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, right, the assumption that we are not like me. So you know why are you not like me? Madness, right? Yes, and it's how many people have presented with that every day, especially in the queer community? That must be really hard, because they're being questioned every day, like you were, and it's. How do we enable people to just take that moment and recognize them as a human first, not judge them on however they're presenting? How? Yeah, what would you say to people to embrace difference?
Speaker 4:lay down your fear. Please find the courage to lay down your fear. Lay down the sword and shield for a minute, okay, because we, we are not a threat. We are not a threat and people look at me and see me as a threat, but how should they see you?
Speaker 2:as a human being. Yeah, first and foremost, yeah, and be curious. If you want to know more, ask a question, isn't it?
Speaker 4:dear god. I've just spent a week in Ireland and you know I love accents, all sorts of, but the Irish accent, oh God. You know. It's like I want my wife to be Irish, please. I love that, honestly, and I was gagging to go out and just eavesdrop on conversation and just hear the accent, Just hear it.
Speaker 2:I know you do get drawn to accents, honestly.
Speaker 4:But you know, coming from a multicultural place, you know I lived in London for 30 years and I was in the East End, so I grew up with the Caribbean and you know Arabic and Muslim communities and you know I had Irish friends, I worked with Irish people and that accent. And when I was a case manager for an EAP Employee Assistance Programme, you know when I was referring clients to our affiliate network, oh my God, I loved, you know, to phone Edinburgh and speak to my scottish clients just to hear yeah, yeah and and just yeah. You know what's the weather and and literally just have a 20 minute conversation that shouldn't have lasted 30 seconds.
Speaker 2:You know, just talk to me please, but be curious.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yes, because, look, we come from different places on the planet, okay, from different continents. We are a multicultural, we are a global community, now, okay, and that translates to our homes you know multicultural families to our workplaces, to our networking, all across the board? Yeah, it does. We are multicultural.
Speaker 2:That's why my book is multicultural yeah, and your book is really good, isn't it that the audacity to thrive as well? Is that? Yes, that one is a really good, but we make sure people have the link to that as well thank you very, very much no different, but I think it comes back to what you said when, um, we spoke before the whole. Be curious, have compassion, yes, how can you have? Have empathy in order to create, yeah, just an understanding, right, yes, and acceptance. Do the work on yourself, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:And for a lot of people that is hard because if you're set in your ways and concretized in your mindset, okay, to chip away at that and break that is hard because first of all, you have to realize there's an issue. Yeah, yes, yeah, okay. If you're a leader, if you're a CEO, I've had a situation with a colleague recently where you know they were told no, you can't go on holiday, sorry, what I'm telling you, if you go on holiday, there'll be consequences. It's like, sorry, what planet are we living on? Yeah, okay, it's booked, I've applied for leave. You know I've gone through the procedure. Yeah, why are you telling me I can't go? You just can't. I'm telling you Right, okay, Right, okay. And you know part of my work no, all of my work is based on my working with employees, of having been an employee and being shouted at and bullied by a manager. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Of having seen my mother, my father, my siblings be treated differently by racist managers and actually stepping back and studying it that, okay, let me just watch this, because I don't want to. You know, use the racism card. Yeah, anytime we call it a she or he or they are just using a racism card. It's like sit yourself down. Yeah, it's not that, unless you've walked in my shoes and experienced the pain of rejection and missing out and, you know, being overlooked for promotions and whatever, you have no idea of what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:No exactly, yeah, what you're talking about. No, exactly. So tell me then, in relation to that, how important is allyship within a community or in an organization, in particular, particularly and when we're looking at it from that workshop perspective, that authentic allyship, like obviously one of our guests talked about. It's not just about the lanyard, which isn't, but people think they've done enough, but it's the. What does that authentic, yeah, allyship look like in the workplace, especially from, I suppose, those leaders who want to support queer employees but fear, in inverted commas, getting it wrong. Oh, dear God, how long have we got to talk about this? One Bhavna, another 12-part series, yeah, another podcast. What does it look like?
Speaker 4:Be human. Yeah, it comes back to that. Be human, be human, be human. Take that bloody badge off, okay, and step down from the pedestal. Yeah, put down the ego, yes, okay, show up as a human being, because our workplace is our second home. We spend, you know, between 8 and 15 hours there. Yeah, we do all right. These people, you know, from from a psychological school of thought, these are our family, our extended family. You know, you've got the good parent, you've got the bad parent, you've got the you know supportive siblings, you've got the crappy siblings. Yeah, okay, all of those dynamics are at play at work. You know that's why people get so incredibly hurt when they are treated badly, because it's like but I love my job, I've, you know, stayed for hours after work. We didn't ask you. Yeah.
Speaker 4:We didn't ask but, yeah, but. But if you say no, yes, if you turn up at eight o'clock and you leave at the end of your shift at four and no, I'm not here to you know, go and socialize after work, because I actually have a life. Yeah, you're not a team player, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2:We hear that, your podcast aside, or yeah, or people will go meet, meet, meet, gossip, gossip, and then you'll get isolated Absolutely. Oh, it's just horrendous. We've seen that happen, but I suppose it's. How then do leaders have the courage then to have, I suppose, those uncomfortable but necessary conversations about inclusion, necessary conversations about inclusion? How do, how do leaders even do that? Because we, you know I'm sure in your experience as well, bavin, I know in our experience we've seen people avoid conversations. Oh my god, yes, because it's uncomfortable, too difficult, or or or. But how do you help leaders develop that courage to do that? By being being fair, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, by literally going, you know, to the baseline foundation of how would you like to be treated? Yeah, as a human being. Forget your badge, forget that title. Yeah, okay, forget the six figure sums, I don't care. Yeah. Right. What kind of human being are you? Yeah.
Speaker 2:For us. I think now this might be just my idea because of the work that we do, we can see it from the other side far more quicker Now this is my, my own opinion than maybe somebody that hasn't necessarily had the skills, the training, the awareness, the life experience. Life experience. So for those, as you said, because people will get, if you, if you asked a question of a man, so well, actually, what, what type of human are you? Um, are they even ready for that question?
Speaker 4:some people, no, they're not no, I get a lot of push back and a lot of anger and a lot of spitting feathers, right, okay, okay, and it's like oh, that's delicious, because it shows me where you are 100.
Speaker 2:That's what you are, that's right. Okay, let's start here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, okay spit away my love, yeah keep going.
Speaker 4:It's allowing me to sort of look at where you are at in your mindset. Yeah, exactly. You may be at different levels in other parts of your life. Yeah, here, right now. Where are you at? Yeah, okay, so how would you like to be treated? Right, and one of the examples I use a great deal and I always have, is if I rocked up in front of you as an employee, as a colleague, as a teacher, as anything, how would you deal with me? Yeah, what would you need to know about me? Yeah, what would you want to know? Yeah, yeah, okay, what kind of?
Speaker 2:questions. Might you ask exactly? And we always say that don't we don't just tell people who you are first. I'm a believer in going okay, I'll tell you a bit about me, just so we have some you know, you can get a sense of who I am. But that next bit goes so no, tell me about you. What do you do? That's you know? What do you love, what do you hate, what's your impassion and and and it's just having those conversations.
Speaker 2:Who are you? What makes your heart sing? Yeah, but I suppose, going back to what you said earlier, if somebody has experienced trauma because maybe at that time they did open up and were truly them and then got crushed and they do that's going to be even more difficult. Yeah, because they do right. But how do we encourage, maybe, people that have been traumatized and are now guarded, or more guarded, rather than go quiet and not say anything? How do we encourage that voice to still be present? We create the right environment, right? So it's just really down to the culture and the environment the owner should not be on that person.
Speaker 4:No, you shouldn't at all they should not be carrying the weight.
Speaker 4:Yes, you asked me a question about you know how can a leader make it a safe place? How can they be a good ally? Yeah, even though they're scared. Okay, do Right. Okay, be ready to screw up. Yeah, be ready to make mistakes, because that's how we learn. Yeah, right, you know you may throw the dice and you may get the numbers you want. You may not, so you throw again. Yeah, right, so you know, if you are a compassionate human being with empathy in your heart, then courage is a given. Yeah, even though your knees are knocking together.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly your heart's bounding Do it scared, but do it, because you will either win or you will have a lesson and you can do it again. Yeah, one thing about being human beings, you know for as long as we're alive, we, we get to try and try and try. That's how we've evolved to be here today. Okay, if, if we gave up, you know, trying to learn to walk when we were babies and every time we tried we fell, yeah, we'd be crawling on our hands and knees yeah, yeah, but it's that, it's that evolution.
Speaker 2:And as you go back to what we said earlier about wanting to understand, learn, grow, develop and be willing, I think there's a level of willingness to even want to, and it's because you've got to have a will to want to explore, want to be curious, want to ask questions. Absolutely and again, don't, they don't yeah, they don't.
Speaker 4:And again it comes down to fear. Yeah, yeah, okay, anybody listening this and they're thinking, oh my god, I couldn't do that. Why just sit with yourself and ask yourself why, yeah, okay, what is stopping you? What, what, what are you telling yourselves? What scripts are going on in your mind? Yeah, that are stopping you from taking action. Yeah, okay, and one of the biggest ones is I don't want people to think I'm foolish. I don't want people to laugh at me. Yeah, feel embarrassed or stupid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, own it, own it. And our colleague Linz talks a lot about scripts and what that means and how it plays out in our adulthood and where it maybe came from. And those conversations that you have when you get under the surface with people and I'm sure you've seen people that may be silently struggling with some of that stuff and you know it's being able to offer that support, isn't it, without overstepping the mark or being fearful of saying something wrong. So what can people do in that space? Have, have the courage to say it. But what else would you advise people to consider?
Speaker 4:Reach out to a hand of friendship, right, okay? Okay, you know. So you may not feel comfortable talking one-on-one with somebody because you don't have the words. So go and find your mentor and have a chat with them. Go and find a coach and have a chat with them. Come and speak with me, yes, you know, and let's work through that operating system. Let's look at the coding, yes, okay. Or we can do hybrid coaching yeah, where we look at the coding and we look at how you can speak to that person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, just having a safe space to explore it with somebody. Like you said sometimes, your, I suppose, your experiences enabled you to welcome, I suppose, the opportunity for people to have a conversation with you. You're not closed off, you're not somebody who goes. No, I'm not talking about you. You'll go, let's chat, and I wish more people would do that. Yeah, let's chat. We're going to have differences, but then everybody has differences in some way. It just depends on the impact, doesn't it?
Speaker 4:God, it does, it does and it takes us back to our diamond. It does, yeah, and all the different facets. You know, no two diamonds are alike.
Speaker 2:No, and that's incredible when you think about it, isn't it Right, yeah?
Speaker 4:And as that's incredible when you think about it, isn't it right? Yeah, and as you know, life has happened and we've grown, mud has been chucked, and mud has been chucked and and by the time we get to awareness, we absolutely believe that we are mud. Okay, you know, like the buddha statues that they found covered in mud, yes, covered in mud and then when they tried to lift them, they were like what the hell is going on?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, and actually they'd been covered in mud to protect them from looters during the war. Yeah, there was solid gold inside.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I hadn't even thought about that, actually, but that's such a good way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah, you might have to dig a bit deeper that's it the mud is.
Speaker 4:You know other people's opinions, other people's thoughts and beliefs and all the thing they vomit on us yeah, yeah okay, and, you know, cover us with that stench, but that's not who we are.
Speaker 4:no, and it's about I wrote about this earlier today boundaries. It's about actually realizing this isn't. This doesn't feel okay for me. Why does it not feel okay? What can I do about it? Yeah, okay, and you know, one of the things that, especially for women leaders, one of the things they find hard and then they become really harsh right, you know, devil wears Prada level heart. Yeah, that level Okay, but she had a heart. That's not strength. Strength, that's self-protection, that's fear yeah yeah, that is fear. Okay, that's the imposter condition.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's not a syndrome. We're not. No, it's not a syndrome. I'm no, we're definitely not okay, and it's.
Speaker 4:It's born off and fed by fear yeah okay, I want to be strong, I want to appear strong, and so on and so forth, and you think, darling, you are not strong no, you are far from strong and and literally if, if we pull at that thread, you will unravel like a spinning top.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know that's why we love the job we do right. That's why we are in this, because we can unravel people in a way that keeps them still safe, with love and honest who they are. Yes, exactly, care and compassion, yeah, definitely I love that with love, tenderly, tender, oh, tenderly, it's a nice word. So, when you're thinking about, I suppose your book which we make was the audacity to thrive, and I suppose how do people thrive, especially in our as and I'm in our, you know queer people? In today's world of work and today's world, what's your view? How can people thrive?
Speaker 4:oh my god, I love that question by being themselves. Okay, we're kind of apologetically themselves. Yes, yeah, okay and thriving doesn't mean, you know, being out there like, oh, I have arrived. Yeah, I mean, if that's you, you can hey crack on, you know, and, and I do when I'm giving keynotes, because it's like you have no idea what I've done.
Speaker 4:Yeah, to get this point, and I want people to you know, listen and be inspired and motivated and electrified. I love that you know when the light goes on in their eyes. Yeah, okay, so how can thriving can be as simple as being able to sit with yourself and feel peace. Yeah. So, important. To rock up at work and not feel frightened or anxious, or sad or depressed, or just that stillness of knowing who you are. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Of having chosen you of putting your own oxygen mask on first. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it takes time. It takes you're not, can't be fixed overnight, can you? Yeah, yeah, yeah it's not something that happens overnight.
Speaker 2:No, it isn't because remember it.
Speaker 4:It's going to take a lot of water to wash that mud off yeah, I'm gonna hold that.
Speaker 2:That is such a good way of looking at it and, as you just said there, yeah, you've got to want to wash it off, but you, yeah, to see the shine beneath and that comes from within, right, it's such a good way of looking at it.
Speaker 4:It is there it is there and every human being alive has felt that little glimmer every so often. You know when they're sitting or talking or doing something or thinking about a project and they get that wash of energy come up.
Speaker 2:You know our goose pimple moments yeah, yeah right where that's their true self saying hello, yeah, and you want to get more of that, don't you? You want to encourage that and not then push it back down again, which some people will do. Yeah, and that comes through by doing inner child work?
Speaker 4:Yes, it does. Yes, okay, with the majority of the whatever clients I've worked with throughout my career, I have incorporated inner child work into our work. Yeah, yeah, I think you have to have to. You have to because, yeah, you know, as we're growing up, you know we're happy, fun, jumping in puddle people, okay, even those who have gone through horrors that we can't begin to imagine, they have microscopic moments of glimmer where it's like, yeah, I want to jump in that puddle or I want to do that beautiful in the moment thing, okay. And then something happens where you know life impresses upon us that we need to pack it in and get on with it and become serious yeah, so chronologically, we start going growing up or aging, Aging.
Speaker 2:I don't know if people grow up sometimes. This is it. I like that aging.
Speaker 4:The beautiful bub is left behind, wondering what the hell did I do? Why did you leave me behind? Okay, and it's there alone, frightened, frightened, worrying about what people think about it.
Speaker 4:speak to an anxious child and that's what you've got yeah exactly okay and, and with me, the inner child work is encouraging my client, you know, with all their suited and booted and titles and degrees and all of that, it's like put it to one side love, put it in a drawer. Yeah, okay, let's go and reconnect with that inner child. Yeah, let's see who you really are. Yeah, yeah, okay so that you're the adult self and you can be grown up at work. Yeah, but you can also be crazy yeah and have fun and jump and have fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, be the child. Yeah, that wild child again. Yeah, jumping paddles, I like that absolutely, can I?
Speaker 4:share something with you. Yes, of course, okay, and disclaimer here. All right then, I love dinosaurs. Oh, okay, yeah, I'm crazy about. I have a dinosaur tattoo.
Speaker 4:Oh, my god brilliant okay, absolutely loved them, and I hadn't spoken to anybody apart from two people about this because I thought, oh my god, they're going to. You know, my credibility will just go through the floor, right. And I went to visit the same friend again a couple of years ago, last year, landed at Dublin, and she said, could we please go to IKEA, do you mind? And I was, like no, wandering around and I saw toy dinosaurs on their displays and my inner child started bubbling up. And there I was you know 52, wandering around, trying to act an adult. The more dinosaurs I saw, the more I lost my mind. You couldn't hold it in, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't. And, and you know, we went, we went past the toy section because you can't help it, and it was just dinosaur. You know big cages of dinosaurs? Brilliant, yeah, I lost my mind. Did you get one, though? Four, my?
Speaker 4:friend bought me four dinosaurs, oh my god brilliant, makes fun of me to this day, you know. But I had my four dinosaurs on the big trolley you know, to Ikea, super proud of carrying my dinosaurs why, would you not?
Speaker 2:why would you not be unapologetically?
Speaker 4:you right my goodness, and this year for my birthday. She said what do you want? And I said I love bubbles. Right, get me a bubble machine.
Speaker 2:So I've got a little t-rex bubble machine brilliant I expect to see that next time you're on a stage, a keynote, where out comes a dinosaur, and you'll just put him on the side, my colleague Laura, who obviously is my co-host, she will take around with her panda and her fox, because she talks about having that foxy mindset, panda mindset.
Speaker 2:And so we rock up at workshops with these toys that are massive, but it creates such a great conversation to have. So I think it's so important to connect back with what makes you smile, because it just brings you joy, and that's what we want, isn't it? So it's really important. So, babna, let me just ask, because we could chat forever and we'll definitely have you back to talk about other things, but if you were finally, I suppose, thinking about where we are, and it is Pride Month when we're doing this, but, as we said earlier, as we were chatting, it's not just one and you're done, it continues, right, but what does Pride mean to you personally? Not as a professional, but as Bhavna?
Speaker 4:Seeing the rainbow when I was in the closet, when I was married, and I loved my husband. I loved him with every cell of my being. I've never loved anybody like that in my life. But stuff happened and I had to come out and, you know, it happened in a very catastrophic way and the thing that kept me going was, every so often, seeing that little rainbow somewhere and grinning like a fool yeah, okay, you know, and just feeling that little hope that maybe one day because I told myself not in this lifetime, ah okay, I had absolutely drawn a line under it and not in this lifetime because I'm committed to this man. I love him with every cell of my being. You know he's my best friend, my lover, my partner, the one who's got my back. Yeah, and of course I had his back.
Speaker 4:Yes, but love means you tell the truth in my book, yeah, and I had to come out and be truthful with him and it is the hardest thing I have done and I've done some hard things, you know. So for me, it, it, it, it was that little crumb of hope. You know the read that I was holding on to while I was in the depths of hell. Yeah, you know, and I contemplated more than once about chucking it all in. I bet I was like, do you know what? I can't because I couldn't take the responsibility of hurting him. Yeah, got you. Okay, you know that was unbearable for me to contemplate. And yet I realized, hang on a minute, everybody's living their life. I'm helping clients, you know, with their coming out journey and with their transitioning journeys, and I'm sitting here dying in my own cage.
Speaker 4:Wow, okay, right so you Wow, Gay Right. So you know, pride. It is an essential, essential representation for everyone that has been discriminated against, Everybody that has been buried alive in their glass coffins by families and cultures and all of that colonial bullshit. Ok, because this homophobia and transphobia is a scourge of colonialism. Yeah yeah okay, excuse me. And the export of the notion of sin. Yeah, you know, and I've written about it extensively in the book for organizations to sit down and read. Yes, and challenge especially for leadership.
Speaker 4:Read that. If you're scared about being inclusive as a human being, okay, because it's for leaders to create that safety. Because if I'm a leader and I'm leading the team, yeah, people are watching me to take the cue. Absolutely, yeah, if I'm being an asshole and excuse me, yeah, guess what I'm giving them permission to do. We don't have to look far, we just have to look across the pond to see, yes, what's going on and how people have been enabled to really be nasty serpents. Okay, and that comes back down to us to the moment, okay, to the whole. Point. Of pride is about proudness. Yeah, it's about stepping up and being proud of who you are, how you are, yeah, how you're showing up in the world. Yes, okay, it's not about one day waving the rainbow flag, or you know no wearing the lanyard.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, and I know that you know. Oh, my goodness, yeah, I could get incredibly controversial.
Speaker 2:I won't do that to your podcast. We won't do that on this one. No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 4:But you know, these are conversations we need to have. Yeah, definitely, yeah Right, because you can't be waving a flag and putting people down.
Speaker 2:No, exactly Because it's not congruent, is it? It's not congruent. That's the work that you do around, being comfortable with who you are. It's joining you from where you think you should be to where you actually are and putting you together and going. That's who you are, and I suppose if people wanted to explore more about that for themselves but also leaders out there that were you've created this sense of curiosity in them from listening to this today. How can people find you?
Speaker 4:oh god, come and say hello on linkedin.
Speaker 2:Linkedin okay, we'll make sure we have all your links and handles on it for sure, absolutely so you can find me on linkedin.
Speaker 4:Yeah, come and visit my website. It's everything I do. Tell us what your website is, so justbeyourselfcouk Brilliant. I love that, okay. And. I'm just working on another second website called the Audacity to Thrive Brilliant For workshops and keynotes and so on. Lovely, that will be going live soon.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, we're looking forward to that, yes, and we'll definitely be able to sort of keep an eye out and make sure that gets put out as well. But we could talk for hours about this, because what you've done is you've just sort of scraped the surface of the things that you're talking about, and if it's enough to pique curiosity in people, then reach out and find out even more about what you do, because you have a huge array of expertise and experience out there, talking keynote speaker on radio, on panels, on so much that we've only seen a very small part of the impact that you have. So it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you and we were just so buzzing when, yes, you said, yes, I'll come and talk to you, and we just went yeah, thank you. So it has been an absolute pleasure and we will make sure that people know where to find you and, um, as I say, we'll get you back and we'll be talking about some of the other stuff later on in the year as well.
Speaker 2:I just want to say thank you very much for showing up as you and sharing your stories and and it sounds there's more, which is fascinating, um, but with the wise advice around and suggestions and considerations for people as well. So I want to say a massive thank you and for your time today. Pleasure very much. You look after yourself, thank you so, law, what did you think?
Speaker 1:I mean there were some such mic drop moments there, weren't there from the murder attempt when she was, yeah, you know, at 18. I mean, it was just to be able to hear someone's experience and then, of course, you can't help but contrast it with your own thinking. God, I was not having to deal with the challenges that she had when she was 18. I certainly had some challenges, but to be able to just empathize and have a bit of compassion with some other things that might be going on, that impact stuff, it was really enlightening and I think my main sort of takeaways were she just delivered some real nuggets. Do it with fear, yes, and there was just some really lovely kind of expressions that she was using about how work. For many of us, it's your second family, yeah, it's your second home, and, um, lay down your fear and do it scared, that's it those are two things.
Speaker 1:I thought oh god, that's good phrase it's good, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, and I think that bit around, you know, she again, you know, reinforces the fact that you know we all have a, you know we all have a choice, really, and self-acceptance is a journey, not a destination, and we're always evolving and I think how we, how in leaders, we can have empathy and be able to understand, you know, she said, are really vital in the world of work today, and I think that's what we're hearing a lot more anyway.
Speaker 2:But I think you know her personal experiences have certainly shaped her story as we go through, and it was, you know, it was amazing to listen to and it was just crazy to think, as you said, 18, I never, you know, had anything like that and never even experienced it or anything like that. So to hear her talk about it, you know, was really empowering and also linked into her personal choices that, she said, define our paths in life. So her choice as to how to respond to different things that have happened over a career, I just thought was incredible and, as you said, you know said, just do it scared and come over, because fear stops people taking action right. So how can we overcome some of that and take the action that's needed, because if you're doing the right thing, whatever that might be, but not jumping over hoops to get it, but doing the right thing from a place of congruence and authenticity and genuine kindness and care, then why would you not? So, yeah, it was really powerful. Good way to end our series, I think it was.
Speaker 1:The challenge is, of course, is a lot of people are feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this information because they're busy enough as it is just trying to cope with the day-to-day. So my share of the secret would be, if you've got a friend or a colleague who's feeling just a little bit overwhelmed by all of these things to do with creating inclusive workplaces and it's a very noisy world that we're living in at the moment and if they've got an hour's commute or they've got a little bit of a drive or a little bit of a journey ahead of them, get them to listen to Bavner and I guarantee that you'll arrive at whatever your first commitment is in your working day just with a little bit more of a capacity to just see what might be going on behind the behaviour. So yeah, that would be my share of the secret.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, I suppose my call to action I'm going to take from what she said about. You know, pride is about being proud of who you are. So I think, just check in with yourself and you know, am I proud of myself? And the answer should be yes, and if it's a wobbling answer, then maybe have a deeper conversation or look a bit deeper. But that would be my call to action. Yeah, think about, are you proud of who you are?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Love it, debs. And so what an incredible mini series that we've had. Yes, and so much so we're're going to, for the first time ever, record a bonus episode. Yeah, and that's our opportunity to uh, convene with carl as well, to be able to have a conversation around, because he was having lots of conversations with our guests in the kind of craton of this mini series. So, yeah, we're going to get our three heads together and just reflect what have been our learns, what have been our takeaways, and what does that mean in terms of some recommendations that we can all put into practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, whether it's big, big, big behaviours or those little behaviours to enable more inclusive workplaces. So I'm really looking forward to that, Debs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, looking forward to that, and, as we said, we've got a couple of extra specials, haven't we that we're rolling into July as well and linking it into the world of work even more and some of the impact that has as well. So, yeah, it doesn't stop here, it continues. So it's been. I really enjoyed listening to the different guests we've had, laura, and it's just been fascinating. We've all learned something along the way, which is what it's all about, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, because we're not robots. No, we're definitely not Every human is different. And those leaders, those colleagues, those organisations, those industries that can lean into and embrace and welcome difference are probably going to be the ones that will have more creativity and therefore future-proof resilience in a world that is increasingly becoming led by algorithms which isn't a bad thing but that counter of the human spark of difference, alongside that machine kind of rigour, then I think that's where the sweet spot is. High tech, high touch, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, mic drop. Well, I look forward to speaking to you next. Well, actually, on our bonus episode, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I look forward to it. Absolutely. We've got too much just for four parts. We need a fifth one.
Speaker 2:I know we've got to go more and more. Give you more. I love that, but you have a good one, lord and I will catch up with you soon. Yeah, see you later Love you Bye.
Speaker 1:We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work.