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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
245. Find Your People: Create Belonging For All
In the second episode of our Friendships at Work series, we’re joined by Karl Allcoat, a senior leader in construction and architecture, to explore what it really takes to create belonging — especially for those who may not see themselves represented in the majority.
Whether it’s being LGBTQ+, neurodivergent, or simply feeling like an outsider in a workplace culture, Karl shares his lived experience and practical insights on building inclusive environments that honour difference, encourage curiosity, and nurture connection. We dive into the idea of “finding your people” at work — and what leaders and colleagues can do to help make that possible.
We unpack tools like Spoon Theory to explore how energy, sensory load, and different processing needs affect how people show up, engage, and interact. It’s a rich conversation about learning to meet others where they are, challenging assumptions (including our own), and choosing to lead with openness rather than certainty.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone wanting to foster real belonging — not through token gestures, but through everyday choices that invite people to be seen, heard, and valued.
Expect fresh perspectives, personal truths, and a coaching lens on how to build workplaces where everyone has a place.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training.
Speaker 2:Debs, laura, how, how you doing Really well thank you.
Speaker 1:How's your friendly week gone? It's gone very well. I've been chatting to people oh good, go on, give us the goss obviously in a very in-the-vault kind of way, but around this sort of focus on friendships at work, have you got any kind of live examples that people have brought to you in the one to one coaching environment?
Speaker 2:Yes, I've got plenty, but one in particular is sort of a common theme, which is the dealing with conflict. If there's a conflict situation with them and their friend and they are their line manager or manager, and then that has just it's upset them because they don't want to upset them and they're worried about how the relationship will go after and oh, it just gets very complicated because they just avoid it and then it can be seen as favouritism because everybody who's looking in on it is seeing them not do anything about it and that behaviour, or whatever it might be, is encouraged to keep going and they go. But you're the boss here, you should say something, you should say something. So it's a really yeah, it sort of pulls on the friendships. You know little, you know things a bit.
Speaker 1:And, debs, unlike in your personal life where you can just sort of start to gently neglect a friendship or sort of not go to a gathering where that person might be there, in the world of work it's really tricky to keep avoiding someone if you know you have to sort of work with each other.
Speaker 1:So it's been a really interesting, a four-part focus looking at friendships at work and actually, as we covered in the first episode last week, rather than just a nice to have, having that sense of friendship at work, according to Gallup's stats, actually can be a game changer in terms of creating a sense of engagement. And the focus we've got with our lovely guest who was in conversation with you was around. Actually, how do you create a sense of belonging if you are working alongside people with whom you want to have a friendly working relationship, with people with whom you want to have a friendly working relationship with but you might not necessarily cross paths with that person in your personal friendship network, and how actually that can be really useful from our skills, our mindset and having that kind of variety? So we've got another, carl, who is now a new friend of the podcast, carl Allcoat, and he's a senior manager in the world of architecture and construction, so I can't wait to hear Debs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a really good chat. Actually, I think his push around, his dedication to inclusive leadership, is something that he's sort of encouraged and sort of made happen in all of his career. But he's such a passionate advocate. He's an advocate for neurodiversity in the workplace as well and he talks about how you know, as we're here in a minute, how he's openly autistic but he how he leverages his personal experience from you know, from that and being a member of the queer community, um, into what he does, into creating understanding and insight.
Speaker 2:So should we take a listen? Hi everyone, how are we all doing? We really hope you've been enjoying our series from last month where we were talking about pride and the value of pride and moments of pride, and then what we've done is, because it was so popular, we've actually extended it because, as one of our guests said, you know it goes beyond the lanyard. So we wanted to sort of link this within our topic of July series around friendships at work and actually how this dovetails really really nicely into what we're talking about, both from an LGBTQIA plus perspective, but also, as we find out from Carl, and Eurodivergent perspective as well. So we thought we would just combine the two and chat about that and how that impacts on us in the world of work today. So I'm joined by Carl Alcott, who's a seasoned project manager and qualified architect recognized for his strategic thinking and dedication to inclusive leadership. So hello, carl, welcome, and tell us a bit about you for our listeners.
Speaker 3:Hi Deb. Thank you very much for inviting me today. It's a real pleasure to be here to talk about being LGBTQ+ and also neurodivergent. Yeah, I'm an architect by training, moved into project management a few years ago, really enjoy that kind of bigger picture, thinking around, you know delivering projects and seeing how we can, you know sort of um, bring the design aspect to that as well. You know new diversion and queer, but more specifically, all dhd. So that's autistic and adhd contraction of the two. And I'm a cis gay man so I use pronouns he, him yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I mean, there's so much information there and I'd just like to first of all find out what was it, first of all, that got you into your career? Well, how did you recognize that, actually, I could be a great project manager? What was it that enabled you to find yourself there?
Speaker 3:I think it was.
Speaker 3:It's part of mindset of being problem solving, so seeing the challenge but then seeing how we can deliver a solution, and I think particularly architecture gives you a little bit of that.
Speaker 3:You know you're working with lots of different people, so there's, you know, having to coordinate engineers from different disciplines, you're having to coordinate sustainability consultants and bring that all together into you know sort of a yeah, I suppose it's like making cake you know lots of ingredients and bring it together to you know, final bake-off, uh, presentation at the end, yeah, I suppose project management takes a step back from that.
Speaker 3:So you're you're looking at the bigger picture, even more so with working more closely with a client, seeing how that impacts time, quality, cost, but then also really, yeah, really sort of driving that forward. And I felt like having that design input or design experience would kind of really help me with with that, particularly in the earlier stages of project, where you know we're looking at how that can you know, how can I influence the design positively to you know, produce the best result yeah, okay, I just think it's fascinating because I think it has a lot to do, you know, with the way we process information, how we show up, who accepts us in the world of work, how are we accepted in the world of work?
Speaker 2:so I suppose from your experience, you've obviously described your identity as well. But how has that shaped your journey in the world of work?
Speaker 3:so I'll split it out a little bit because, um sure, I realized I was gay from a young age.
Speaker 3:So, you know, I came out to my close friends and family when I was quite young, so my teenagers years and I think although I didn't really have any kind of issues or concerns around that, it wasn't really much till later, maybe sort of six, seven years ago that I actually, I suppose, really engaged with that, particularly in the workplace, worked for a company that had a sort of fledgling network that was being set up and there was an opportunity to get involved with being part of the steering committee for that.
Speaker 3:And I I said to them it was literally 11 hours because deadline was midday and sent an email saying I don't know exactly what role I can fill here, but here's my attributes or here's what I think I can contribute in a kind of broadest sense. And then that led me on a journey for three years to be part of the committee and end up co-chairing for a year, which was an incredible experience because partly being exposed to so much more of the business, so many colleagues and so much diversity of other types of work outside of my day-to-day role, but also, yeah, I think what really helped me was to push myself out my outside, my comfort zone.
Speaker 3:I'm not one of public speaking but I pushed myself to do that and I think really just getting I think the biggest thing was getting that community yes um, I moved on from that company three, four years ago and I've got, you know, still really good friends with quite a few people who met through that network and I think that that sense of community is what I take most of it, and also, I think, learning from other people's experiences, not just other gay men, but you know, the other kind of parts of the community as well yeah, okay, and that's so.
Speaker 2:That's obviously on one side. And to tell us a bit more about the other side, as you were going to split it out for us yeah, and absolutely so.
Speaker 3:The the new devotion aspect is is much kind of fresher. It's only 2022, so just over two years ago, okay, but I learned some autistic ADHD, so that that's been a still very fresh, still an ongoing journey. Sure, still kind of learning about how that affects me and how I can maybe lean more into certain aspects of it, but also, you know better balance and put boundaries in place, I guess. So I think it's yeah, it's been a bit of a roller coaster in some respects, because there's moments where it's, you know, the penny drops. It's a real eye-opening moment and everything just suddenly falls into place in terms of, oh that you know that's why that happened or that's that's why that situation kind of went the way it did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure um, and there's so many things that just start to line up and kind of domino effect, and that in itself is quite overwhelming, you know, it's almost like you become hyper aware of everything and it takes a bit of processing just to kind of get through that. Yeah, um, I'm grateful to say that I'm kind of I think, hopefully out the better side of that now. Um, but I think in the workplace it has been, has been a bit of trial and error through trying to understand, you know, whether it's, you know, a bit of hybrid working right, fairly the norm now, but, you know, mix of being in the office but also being able to work from home and flexibility around that yeah but also trying to find those kind of other reasonable adjustments that that help me, like having, you know, the noise cancelling headset.
Speaker 3:That allows me to kind of stay more focused yeah, okay, yeah, different things.
Speaker 2:So I suppose, linking it back to what you said about the importance of community, how has that, I suppose, helped you, both from when you came out as gay and also now with your ADHD autistic diagnosis? How has that sense of friendship, community helped you?
Speaker 3:you. I mean, broadly speaking, it's just been having people to talk to in a, in a. It's almost like having a safe space. I think bringing that into the workplace especially is really really beneficial, because you're not suddenly kind of felt like you're just wandering around aimlessly or lost. You know, suddenly have you know someone you can go talk to, and often you know employee networks or resource groups tend to tend to offer that kind of safe space, um, both formally but also informally, I think. So I think and there's something on my, particularly with the new diversion side of things more recently, knowing that, okay, I can go talk to this colleague confidentially and they can just kind of help, you know, put my mind at ease, or yeah, or something like that that just has such a positive impact.
Speaker 3:I think without that, I can understand how, you know, people will continue to feel lost or they don't have the support they need.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I suppose you know, in a way, both are so, so important. You know, when we talk about workplace inclusion and you know that whole network creations, to make sure that you know we have that ability. And you know you've spoken, I suppose, before and we'll touch a bit about this, about masking and autistic burnout. We'll come onto that in a moment because that was some of the stuff we did before. But how can, or, in your thoughts, how can, workplaces create environments where people feel they don't need to hide parts of themselves? So, coming out assumptions, you know all that masking, all of that that goes with it, what you know, what would you say? How, how could workplaces create better environments? You've already said a company set up the groups and, but not all companies do that and not all people have an awareness of that.
Speaker 3:so what's, yeah, what should be good to hear your thoughts on that, carl yeah, I think, and I think in terms of the networks, I think they're they're super valuable and I think quite often probably more so. A few years ago there were a lot of them were set up from the grassroots, so the employees kind of just just started them and then kind of fitted into the formal structure later on. Um, so very much an organic process. I think that's sometimes the best way to happen, because if it's kind of imposed from top down, it's yes there may not be the interest or, you know, actual kind of genuine uh approach.
Speaker 3:So I think, I think the organic group is is best, um, not, I think, not forcing or imposing too much on those employee networks. Yes, they, they have a role in terms of helping to. You know, if the company's got, say, an edi strategy and what have you that, that they contribute to that. But that shouldn't be the the primary goal. The primary goal should be that they're there for the employees, colleagues, yeah, and that they really help provide that support that they need. Yeah, um, and community, I think, in terms of, alongside that, having positive role models, whether that be allies or people who identify part of that community across the business. So, senior members, ideally C-suite down. It's not always the case, but you know.
Speaker 3:No, it's not always no, but a director level down certainly, I think is in bigger organizations is doable. I think you know, linking in with other initiatives that the business might have, whether it be like mentoring. So you could, in a previous workplace they introduced reverse mentoring, so some more senior colleagues were paired up with more junior colleagues who perhaps were from an ethnic background or LGBT plus group or some other different backgrounds, so that learning was then kind of passed on up to the more senior colleagues who maybe didn't have that exposure to particular characteristics. I think those are the kind of areas that are really valuable. I think also in relation to the mandate not mandating certain things, I think you know allowing people to do it in their own time and not not forcing people to come out. Or, you know, be be open about things, giving them the space to do it in their own time yeah, and that's the safety, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and I love the fact you, you know we're always big advocates of reverse mentoring, because I think it is so valuable, because if you haven't experienced anything or you're not in a circle where maybe your friends or family are queer or, you know, have neurodivergent or whatever because there's plenty of people out there that don't experience it to have that ability to understand it from both sides really, and being able to work together on understanding it just takes away what I always call the stigma around it. And I love the fact that you said you know, if you have somebody on the C-suite, even better, because it's driven as well from the top in bigger organizations. But do you think leaders and we do have people listening for this leaders, managers or mainly leaders support neurodivergent and lgbtq individuals in in particularly high pressure industries? Because, you know, like construction or architecture, because that's a high, that is a real. If you get a line wrong on a drawing right, that's disaster. So how can leaders help more?
Speaker 3:I think an individual level. I think again connecting with the reverse mentoring piece. Being curious and educating themselves on these different characteristics is a good place to start Listening to podcasts like this, obviously, yeah thank you taking part of training, but not just like the mandatory ones.
Speaker 3:There's normally a kind of token, edi or a different kind of thing. But you know it's going above and beyond, saying I'm going to learn about this particular characteristic or this particular group or community and sort of really start to delve into that. I mean, no one's going to be an expert. I'm by no be an expert. Um, I'm by no means an expert in being autistic. But you know my, it's my experience. But you know I don't, I can't speak to everyone everyone else's experiences.
Speaker 3:So yeah, and I think, understanding and being open to getting things wrong. You know whether you mispronounce someone or you know some people, for example, prefer being first person language. So I'm autistic rather than I'm a person with autism. So it may seem like quite a small distinction, but you know, some people might might take offense or might might correct someone on that. So I think, but it's understanding that you may get it wrong.
Speaker 3:Or, if not, just ask, ask a question, I think, really at a kind of border level, promoting or, you know, talking to what you've learned or what have you with other colleagues.
Speaker 3:You know, cascading that down to your team. You know we had a great opportunity at a previous company to go in, you know invited to, to like people had quarterly common sessions, for example, so 50, 100 people on the team and one of us would be invited in to talk for 10 minutes about what the pride group was doing, um, what it meant to us and what have you and and that kind of thing, I think, really set the tone for the team and and colleagues say, okay, well, you know our director or leaders doing this, he's invited us here, he's given an opening talk and if there is any kind of backlash. That's not going to be accepted. So I think, really setting the standard from the top and particularly trying to be an ally where they can, but they don't have to be, you know you're never, always going to be an ally for everyone, everyone. But you know, pick, pick one and try, try that I think you know yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:So that you mentioned earlier about oh, you didn't like public speaking, so having to do those things. How, how did that help you, knowing you were having to stand up in front of a group of people? It's not what you would like love to do, but you did it. So how would you get yourself ready for that?
Speaker 3:I think that's a point I pretty much memorized the presentation of my heart, which I mean it's kind of from it's how I prefer to do particularly kind of. The autistic brain likes to, likes to know things inside out, so I kind of knew what I was saying on each slide, without, at that point, without having to kind of refer to them too much. Um, I think the other good one that I think I can't remember, who suggested it was a friend in the business, suggested why don't you open? Open like this. So, rather than just being kind of, you know, always have a hook, you know something that's going to draw people. And and it was, you know, first few lines were my name's Carl. I'm a project manager at the company and I'm a gay man okay so the kind of gay man.
Speaker 3:The gay man was the thing that kind of hooked people in, because I don't think many people expected, um, someone to kind of open with that or be that open. So I think that that was kind of a little confidence boost. I think, to do that, um, and even though I still get very nervous doing public speaking, I think that, you know, doing that kind of quite a few times really helped.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, just kind of build a little bit more confidence to to speak to people about, about it openly and that comes back to you know, I suppose, being your authentic self right and not trying to mask it or hide anything. And I know I touched on you know, just being your authentic self, right and not trying to mask it or hide anything. And I know I touched on, you know, just a moment ago about your autistic burnout and the challenges that you face during sort of things like job interviews and so how, what's the question I want to ask, what is the bit that we, we and I'm calling me a we because I I wouldn't know, if you like, what that would look like, so I'd be really interested to know, you know what, what does that look like for you? How did that come across and how did that lead to?
Speaker 3:I suppose, as you said, autistic, you know, burnout yeah, I think I think with masking it's it's important to recognize that everyone masks to an extent sure, yes you know, everyone wants to try and fit into any social situation or with a group or community. So I think there's there's kind of like a base level almost. I think that everyone does.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But especially, I think, within the LGBTQ plus community and especially new diversion community, is it is much more prevalent, Um, I mean, I think I suppose a couple of examples masking from an LGBTQ plus community perspective might be I think one of your previous interviewees kind of spoke about you know, you meet someone for the first time. How much do I reveal? So you might not refer to your partner in that in the right way or so openly so, or being gay man or lesbian might be, you know, constantly coming out, so it's okay, or might just not speak about yes or what I got up to the weekend yeah sure might kind of, you know, say, say too much sort of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, I think, from a new devotion perspective it's there's. There's various ways avoiding well, making eye contact can be really difficult, for example. So, um, what is like forcing yourself to do that, forcing yourself to smile or or mirror the other person's behavior? To an extent it could also be, you know, hiding certain parts of your like autistic self. So what sometimes referred to as special interest? It might be a passion or particular topic that someone's interested in. You know, we can end up talking for hours about that one thing.
Speaker 3:If someone's interested or willing to listen, but, you know, might like hold back from doing that. So I think that the result of it is that it can be very energy draining yeah sometimes without really realizing.
Speaker 3:So you know, going into the office, for example, or going to a social event, you know it could be really draining, um, sometimes we'll get home at the end of the day and just completely kind of crash and have no energy left to even just cook dinner or decide what to have for dinner. So I think that's, that's where the, the link is, the, the sort of effect on the, the energy levels yeah, okay, and how do you?
Speaker 2:because, obviously, how do you manage then your energy levels? If you yeah, how do you do it? Obviously, how do you manage then your energy levels?
Speaker 3:If you yeah, how do you do it? I'm still learning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we all are actually, aren't we?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. But I think it's something I'm, you know, sort of going through, like you know, trying to set better boundaries and, I think, having a level of flexibility. Yes, it's going to be difficult as an autistic person. It's like like my routine and like my structure. Yeah, um, but I think also, then, you know, trying to trying to be kind to yourself, self-compassion, I think, and a kind of level of self-care.
Speaker 3:So yeah you know, I mean for me going for one, cycling, things like that. Uh, you know that that really helps to kind of clear my mind or just, yes, just kind of if if I've been, you know, getting the adhd coming in or sometimes like I need to move around, I need to do stuff, yeah, I feel like I'm doing stuff rather than set a desk for eight hours, so that helps to kind of release that pressure, if you like. So, I think, trying to trying to find things that help me to do that and a level of flexibility, so, although you know, in the office three days a week, um, right, they're not fixed. So I might, you know if, if I wake up feeling low on energy, I might have to say, okay, well, I'll go into my own instead of today, because I just don't know if I can face, you know, face that, um, I think. I think it's like um, I mean, there's the spoon theory, tell us more because not everybody will know what that is.
Speaker 3:So tell us more, yeah so I forget for the life of me, off the top of my head?
Speaker 2:who?
Speaker 3:coined it, but the principle is that most people have like a spoon, so a drawer full of spoons that they have access to, and each spoon represents like a token of energy, if you you like.
Speaker 3:So someone might have 20 spoons in their drawer and they might use five of those to go into the office, do a day, you know, a few spoons to do their physical activity, go to the gym, and they might end up with a few spoons left at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:But, as an autistic person, the same theory applies to, say, people who have other like chronic fatigue issues or other other forms of disability. They might only start the day with half that 20, so they might have 10 spoons and have to be much more careful with how we use those spoons. And it might also be that some of those like day-to-day activities of getting up in the morning, brushing, brushing your teeth, making breakfast, deciding what to do it was like decision fatigue uses up a lot of those spoons. So be very careful with how we use those throughout the day and they're not always replenished at the end as we sleep. So another simple way to describe is you, you know, most people have like a bucket full of water worth, of energy they carry around. Some people only have like half yeah, exactly, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:I've had somebody else said that to me and I, just as they were describing young people, you know, with autism and how their energy flows and what needs to happen it was I thought that was fascinating. I'd never thought, I'd never thought about it from that, but it made sense, you know, and it's just like something I thought was really interesting. So, thank you, I'm gonna maybe ask a bit of a controversial question. I'm not sure, but I'll ask it anyway. So do you feel that the queer community embraces neurodiversity enough?
Speaker 3:I mean, I've not experienced any backlash necessarily myself. I think, broadly speaking, I'm probably quite good at acceptance because as a community that has perhaps struggled, you know, with societally culturally before, that we kind of understand or have an understanding and empathy towards, yeah, new diversion or other other kind of characteristics. So I think, probably speaking, there probably is a good level of acceptance. But I think the other thing that I find interesting is that there's some studies recently have shown that the the ratio of lgbtq plus people within the neurodivergent community is much higher than neurotypical people. So I these various reasons for it. One of them is is potentially that you know similar to what we just said. You know because we don't maybe fit into like societal norms and what have you that?
Speaker 3:yeah we don't necessarily feel like we fit into a, you know, gender identity or sexual orientation. That is is the kind of societal norm. So yeah we may be more kind of open to different traits if you like. But yeah, I think it's quite a staggering amount like extra. I don't have any stats off the top of my head, but yeah, that is interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 2:And I think that's something to you know in the workplace. It's how do we raise the awareness to that, as you said, without necessarily I'm going to say we does that mean, or be allies that will ask the question on behalf of maybe others and then get other people involved, and I think it's that it's. I suppose it's what shifts, what other shifts could we do in the workplace that would, that would help and support and nurture and have empathy and understanding, because if we don't, as you say, fit societal norms, norms, then what else could we do?
Speaker 3:I mean it's.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about this on the way to the office this morning, about yeah the difference between what is the e in edi, but I think the in terms of diversity and inclusion working in places where there's clearly a diverse workforce perhaps, but maybe not they're kind of as inclusive as they could be and I think that is the inclusion comes from. It's not, you know, policy is all in good but you know, culturally needs to be fostered. Um, I think ultimately comes from partly from leadership, but also, you know, not enforcing a particular way of behaving or acting, obviously within certain reasons obviously in a professional environment.
Speaker 3:But I think it's, you know, it's important to allow people to have the space and physical space and kind of mental space, emotional space, to be themselves and not kind of saying that, okay, well, you know, this dress code policy is universal. Yes, actually. Well, this, you know, it's a simple relaxation, it doesn't take much. Um, it's not about turning up to the office and flip-flops and, you know, hawaiian shirts or anything it's.
Speaker 3:It's it's kind of recognizing that there's certain things that you know or, from an LGBT plus perspective, might be that someone you know who's more gender fluid might wear a certain level of makeup, or, as a man you know, as a yes, yes society appearing man but, you know, might want to wear makeup and, uh, nail polish, for example.
Speaker 3:You know that that shouldn't be kind of imposed or shut down something. So I think, I think there's various ways, just, you know, trusting people to be themselves and not, you know, stepping the mark, rather than kind of putting too much, too many barriers in place yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Actually, and and and I think that's certainly what came out of our previous conversations as well is, you know, creating that space to just be curious and understand more, because you know, we don't know everything and I know certainly from what we were doing and even in our previous podcast, when we've spoken to various guests, you know we've, we've gone, oh, I had no idea. You know, now we're all having awareness, so we can't not not have an awareness. So you know, it's that ability to want to know, isn't it? And so, yeah, tell me, help me, support me, you know, guide me, whatever it is. So, I suppose, when we think about how you then balance I've got a question here how do you balance pride and vulnerability when you're sharing your story publicly, especially in companies that may not always be inclusive or have that level of awareness or empathy? You know different cultures, different networks of groups of people. Yeah, know, I'm. You know different cultures, different networks of groups of people. Yeah, how, how do you balance that?
Speaker 3:it can be tricky. It's not, it's not a sort of easy, easy way about it. I think, particularly in the newer office environment or newer workplace it's, you know, there's always a kind of building up, I think, of the level of trust and sort of comfort to be able to be more open and vulnerable. Sure, um, I think I'm much more kind of, I suppose, open on vocal, on my linkedin, for example, and not necessarily things I would openly, just, you know, talk to someone about straight off the bat yeah um, I think it's it's not to hide behind, but it's an easy platform, such to be able to put content up and not have that kind of immediate feedback or reaction.
Speaker 3:So I think, like I say, doing some of those talks you know, opening with that kind of line of I'm gay and what have you, I think those are the kind of situations where by opening up offers others. I think it kind of disarms some other people and offers the opportunity for them to be more vulnerable. So I think it works both ways, whether you're, you know to be TQ+ or new diversion or another sort of community identity, people who aren't part of those communities having a level of vulnerability. And I think that's where you know some of the most powerful and impactful and it's kind of, you know, captivating moments I've seen or been part of is where someone does share their lived experience and typically all of the webinars and stuff or lunch and learn type type things for for pride month and and those where people are actively involved and like actually it's expressed how they felt or what, what happened to them. I think that's that's where, even if someone else can't relate directly to that experience, there may be, you know, some kind of emotional level or some kind of there'll be something I think most people can can relate to.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think it's. It's also about not limiting that, you know, those kind of events to people who are just part of that community. Yeah, remember there was a women in construction week event that previous company organized and it was, you know like oh, you know this, this person in the business. They're amazing. And we've got like four or five women and I join the course like where's the man on the panel?
Speaker 3:yeah you know we need, we need. We need men to be represented and to be able to yeah sure be part of the conversation because otherwise it's, it is just being exclusive. So I think I think a level of vulnerability and making sure that you know there's different ways of connecting, being vulnerable, with others who may not identify directly with that community.
Speaker 2:It's really important, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I know we always say that that you know, if you look around the table and you're making decisions around culture or strategy, or you know, have you got the right people around the table?
Speaker 2:And that's always been one of the things that I've always think yeah, actually, no, you don't. And as it goes back to that, you know leadership team going and recognizing that, isn't it? And going, oh no, we're not. Actually we haven't got representation from across our organization so we can't make those decisions because, as you said, we haven't had those lived experiences but we need to understand them more. So, having that, you know, I suppose, open as much as you can culture it's safe to be, you be vulnerable, share your story and encouraging that, because you never know who you're going to impact right, or you never know who might go wow, that's, that's me, you know. And suddenly they've got a role model or somebody who's supporting, helping and helping and and it's it just makes it, I suppose is it more acceptable or a level of acceptance for that individual to know that there is, there is somebody else out there which could befriend and become part of that community, to understand it more, which is so important, isn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, absolutely, and I think I think the shame is sometimes particularly lgbtq plus and and neo-divergent uh, not everything about them is is kind of hidden, but I quite love it, as you know, something internal so it is. It is always constant process of coming out in one capacity or another and I've been fortunate. I've had one or two colleagues before that have been there, but the sad thing is that they've maybe not been out or public. Yeah, so I've been able to have, you know, private conversations with them. We'll go to them for that kind of chat, but not, you know, it's a shame that they're they're not kind of able to to do the same. But you know, I completely understand that. You know they're they're doing what they can to help and that's and that's, that's all we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's all we ask, isn't it? Is that do what you can where you feel comfortable to, but don't just shut it off or, you know, block it out as if it's not. You know it's not there because it is, and, I think, raising the awareness to it and not just talking about it, as you said, in different the month of june. You know we talk about black history month in october. It should be an ongoing conversation throughout, you know, the year. It shouldn't just be absolutely, you know, I know it raises the awareness more so because we need to, but it's the ongoing conversations that make the biggest difference, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, so if you think about, if you think about what you then do at work to keep those conversations going. How do you do that in your workspace?
Speaker 3:I mean a classic one I've.
Speaker 3:I've got my, my rainbow lanyard yes, yes, um I mean, I think I think some of those you know, I mean I had seen a few colleagues that joined, yeah, before pride month. I think I had seen a few colleagues with them prior to June. So my hope, you know, is that you know something like a rainbow lanyard is is worn all year round. Yeah, I would wear mine all year round. Um, you know, there's other things like the, the sunflower hidden disabilities lanyard for green green and the other one I tried doing that before. Unfortunately, I have that many people ask me about it.
Speaker 3:That's interesting, yeah but I think it's probably because it's not an obvious one, whereas most people recognise the rainbow.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:So I think there's kind of smaller day-to-day things that don't really cost or take any effort really, or wearing a little badge or something that kind of encourages. You know, it might not encourage conversation with everyone, but it might encourage conversation with yeah, someone sees it and thinks oh, what's? That or you know someone who is curious and wants to to find out more or understand what the business is doing, or you know your personal experience so I think those, those are the kind of simple day-to-day things.
Speaker 3:I think I mean it's kind of ongoing conversations with people, you know, sort of with my manager, for, for example, around you know reasonable adjustments and that's, you know, set something out. But that's a you know evolves. It changes over over time, so needs and things change. I think, just trying to keep keep the conversation going, you know, try to post a fair bit on LinkedIn, try to keep it varied. But you know, sometimes it might be two months of just purely autistic related content and then, yeah, and there's some pride stuff or something completely different.
Speaker 2:So, um, I think just just not, not not feeling like you have to do things all the time, but yes you know, keeping the conversation open and finding ways to to maintain that with with people yeah, okay, and I, and I suppose it's then creating that, I suppose, friendship circle that people can connect with. And, as you said right at the beginning, the connection piece is really key, isn't it? And the feeling that you belong and that you matter, and that can only come from conversations and raising awareness and talking about it. So, if there was a call to action that you'd like our listeners to consider, what would that be for you? What would be your call to action?
Speaker 3:I think it's probably two or three things I'd say, I think. Firstly, I've already spoken about it being curious, so don't be afraid to ask questions, don't be afraid to get it wrong. You, you know, you won't know and understand everything. There's always new terminology coming out, there's new understanding, new research. So, I think, just be open to that and don't be afraid to do that.
Speaker 3:I think challenging judgements, be it your own and those of others, challenging those of others, may sometimes be more difficult because you're actively saying to someone don't do that, or that's not the right thing to say, or that could be taken offensively or something. But then, reflecting back on how you, you know, acted or something you said, maybe, uh, would that be in the moment or 10 years ago, I don't know, but you know, I think, I think that kind of self-reflection is really, really important. And I guess, uh, you know, in relation to being curious and open, you know, try to have empathy, yeah, with other people. Um, and it's, you know, like I said before, trying to, I think there's. There's normally some kind of way that people can connect, even if it's not, you know, like I said before trying to, I think there's normally some kind of way that people can connect. Even if it's not you can't identify with that specific thing There'll be some kind of experience or connection that you I think everyone can make in some way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that and I completely agree with you actually. So I know we could continue this conversation because it's fascinating and I really appreciate your honesty and sharing with us just a little part of your story and who you are. So I really appreciate that, carl. But if people want to find out what posts you're doing, I want to find out more. Maybe you want to reach out and have a conversation with you. How could they find you?
Speaker 3:I'm happy if people find me on LinkedIn. Okay cool, I think my page is just linkedincom and then my name, your name. Cool, after the standard.
Speaker 2:okay, carlorg all right, we'll make sure that that's on our blurb. That goes out with it as well, and but I just want to say a huge thank you, carl, for your time as well. I really appreciate that and it's been really fascinating and I've just loved chatting to you. So I really appreciate that and it's been really fascinating and I've just loved chatting to you, so I really appreciate that, thank you.
Speaker 3:Pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Take care, see you later. Bye. So, Laure, what?
Speaker 1:did you think? Absolutely loved that and you know this is such a hot topic of our time because there isn't really a workshop that certainly I run now where neurodivergence or neurodiversity or even just the language and I've learned you mirror how anyone sort of self-describes isn't there kind of on the radar? It did make me giggle, debs.
Speaker 2:Go on. What bit made you giggle?
Speaker 1:So when Carl was saying how key takeaway call to action was being open to learning and challenging yourself and sort of others' behaviours from a judgment point of view, and I was immediately taken back to this hilarious little kind of interplay that had happened at the weekend. So I've met up with a couple of new professional friends, and one of them happens to be a lesbian. So in your mind you sort of think, oh right, you know she's going to know all the right lingo in all the right ways. Anyway, they're, her and I are egging each other on getting more and more excited, sitting there with her wife and a mutual friend, um, about how, what films we liked.
Speaker 1:And then me and my friend started doing impressions from the indiana jones film. Right, and it's the character called short round who has, uh, you know, an accent that you know appears to come from, uh, from from hong kong. And um, anyway, her and I get in rowdy and rowdy in this cafe doing these accents. Anyway, the two of them looked at us and went I don't think you can do that anymore okay, we're like what?
Speaker 1:like that's part of our showpiece, doing accents you know from from Indiana Jones. And it was a really interesting little moment, debs, because it was like a mirror moment yeah and in my mind I'm thinking I could take this two ways.
Speaker 1:I could sort of roll my eyes and go oh for goodness sake, you know another thing that you can't do world's going PC mad, that kind of stuff. But actually my mind thought actually thank goodness you brought my attention to it, because I hadn't even crossed my mind that doing some quotes from some 1980s films might have kept people laughing for 20, 30 years. But maybe now it sort of runs the risk of someone not being okay with that. And now I know that I can't not know that. So maybe there's the time and place to save doing those kind of those impressions. But it was just so funny because I'd made an assumption that because Lucy is part of the LGBTQIA plus community, she'd have everything ticked, you know, she'd know all this stuff.
Speaker 1:But the two of us just went kind of rolling into this rabbit hole merely sort of with each other anyway, and it was just a moment of actually in the world of work to maintain friendly working relationships with people. That also is about being mindful of what might make one person laugh actually might be a barrier to rapport for someone else. And that's all right, because I love some things that I find funny and not so funny, you know, and actually part of that, like the checking we did at the start, is being able to gently let someone know. Actually that's probably not so funny now and then in the spirit of having those not conflict conversations but those learning conversations.
Speaker 2:And then you know, and I now can't- not know Exactly, then it becomes a choice then, doesn't it? Yeah, it is interesting, but the fact is that you obviously had a good enough relationship with you know them to be able to go hang on a minute in a safe space rather than end up, you know, being taken hr or a complaint or a grievance raised against you, because that can be the risk sometimes as well, that people don't call it and go. It's not really appropriate. I prefer you wouldn't use that language, or or or, um, because then then they just take it away and up and report it to somebody else and then it has to be investigated. So, um, yeah, the fact that they called it out because it was lack of understanding or awareness, or or or, but it was really good that you had that connection to be able to do that, and that's what it's about right?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and Devs, I think this is going to be crucial over the next couple of years because it is becoming more and more where people are saying I'm just so upset. Someone went straight to HR because they said I said something that was inappropriate. Why didn't they come to me and tell me, and then we could have talked about it, rather than it now being on my record, and it just creates a real sort of sourness. So, yeah, I think you're onto something there. The more friendly we can be with each other at work, the easier it is to give friendly warnings. So then you don't get yourself caught up in some hot water that doesn't reflect actually the type of person you are.
Speaker 2:It was just an offhand comment that maybe just went a bit awry In that moment, and I think that's it, isn't it, and that's the relationship piece that you have, and that's why building relationships in the workspace are so important, and also creating a level of understanding of you know who am I working with, you know what do I know, what don't I know, and it's that I need to find out. But I think, yeah, the more awareness we have, I suppose it's that ability to have that level of emotional maturity, like we were talking about, to be able to know what to do, how to do it, and be curious and not just hide it you know so or ignore it, because that's not going to help either.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so I now know it's okay to say okie, dokie, dr Jones, hold on to your potatoes. It's okay to say that in an Essex accent.
Speaker 2:Yeah but not in any other, because that's where I come from. That's where you come from Exactly. Oh my God, I love it, I love that. So what would be your share, the secret? Based on that, then?
Speaker 1:Laura, oh, my share the secret would be I know exactly what it is, so there might be someone in your personal or professional radar who is looking to set up some community groups and some networks within their organisation. Maybe things have got a little bit kind of disbanded and disjointed because there's remote or hybrid working. And then he said rabid rabid working there. Rabid rabid working.
Speaker 3:That's another, that's another podcast.
Speaker 1:And yes, and get them to listen to this, because I think what was great with Carl's practical examples of how those networks can make all the difference when you're looking to create a sense of belonging quickly with people and with all sorts of people. So, yeah, I really enjoyed that. So, anyone in your network who has an influence over creating networks, get them to listen to this and then if that gives them just a little bit of confidence to push for something, then you know that's a great win. What's your call to action?
Speaker 2:Oh, so my call to action will be I think you picked up on it right at the beginning, and I um carl spoke about that as well was about challenging judgments and just, I suppose, being curious and asking questions around them and just before you judge somebody, because you, as I always say, you know you, we all come with a backstory and you know that chance encounter you have or that friendship you built. You're not going to know everything, so, yeah, I would say, challenge any judgments that somebody's had. That would be my call to action, in a respectful way, obviously and, you know, with nurturing and compassion at the heart of it. But that's what I, that would be my call to action. Don't ignore it. Nice one, debs.
Speaker 1:And it's doing it. You know, being a good friend, if you see someone at work is about to put their foot in it, then you know that's what a friend would do. She'd say should we just prepare?
Speaker 2:how we start, exactly, so keep the networks going as well. Yes, yeah, balance and boundaries, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, balance and boundaries. So I'm looking forward to our conversation focused on this next week, deb. So we've done a why friendships at work make all the difference from an engagement point of view. What does that mean, then? To create a sense of belonging with people that you might not naturally network with outside work, but you need to because you're inside work. So thank you again to Carl Alco, some brilliant takes on that from a senior management perspective.
Speaker 1:The third focus that we're going to be looking at what does that mean? To create great working friendships and working relationships when working hybrid or remote. So I think that's going to be really interesting to hear and just share some stories. We've seen where it's working really, really well. And then we've got our fourth episode, where we're going to be joined by a guest looking at how actually work friendships evolving over time can be a game changer in terms of helping you deal with whatever might be relevant in your life at that point in time. So, um, yeah, where friends inside work can actually help the stuff that's going on in your real life outside work it'd be a good one, so looking forward to it, but make sure you have an even friendlier week this week law yes, debs and no.
Speaker 1:Quoting from 1980s films?
Speaker 2:definitely not try and avoid that.
Speaker 1:It's fine to quote the words but not the. No, please try and avoid that one law this is my learn, because every day is school day. Debs, absolutely. Just because I'm 48 doesn't mean that I've matured at that same level as what another 48 year old might have.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:Being mindful, right, being mindful yeah. But, still having fun, but in a mindful way.
Speaker 2:Yes, more considered. But have a good friendlier, friendlier week.
Speaker 1:I will you too.
Speaker 2:Debs Take care.
Speaker 1:See you on the other side. Love you, love you. Bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever changing world of work. Bye.