.JPG)
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
247. Connection Is the Catalyst: How Shared Challenges Build Belonging
In this final episode of our Friendships at Work mini-series, we’re joined by the brilliant Tash Costa-Thomas. Diversity consultant, LGBTQIA+ activist, and former performer, we explore how authentic relationships can transform the way we work, lead, and belong.
Tash shares how her early days on cruise ships (yes, sharing a cabin for nine months!) taught her the power of vulnerability and instant connection, something that’s often missing in buttoned-up corporate spaces. Together we explore how trust is built through shared challenges, not just shared job titles, and why the strongest workplace friendships often outlive job roles and restructures.
We dive into the evolution of Pride at work, the realities of queer parenting in policy-light workplaces, and why middle managers carry a heavy burden when it comes to inclusion. Tash’s powerful message? Your differences are your superpower, and it’s often the smallest gestures of human connection that create the biggest shifts in culture.
Whether you’re building a team, navigating change, or just feeling a little out of place, this episode is a heartfelt reminder that pulling together, not powering through, is what really creates collaboration.
Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debs, laura, are you all right? Yeah, I'm really good. You know, I absolutely loved being out and about running free in that forest with you this week. Yeah, as we went and cheerleaded, we did. That's the right expression. I think so. The 110 people that were embarking on one of our dear, dear clients who were doing either a 50K or a 30K.
Speaker 2:In the hottest day of the year, oh.
Speaker 1:God. Now, I know you and.
Speaker 3:I.
Speaker 1:I know, as well as reading leadership books, we also do quite enjoy looking at, like you know, love Island Married at First Sight Between our team. We have a large array of reference material and source material to look at sort of how human behaviour and how sort of team culture emerges.
Speaker 1:But that was quite an extraordinary example of the camaraderie and the connection that formed, because when you have walked through 50k and talked about blisters and lent on each other and you know, shared a flapjack behind a tree, um, just to just to say we didn't do the walking all we did was the cheering yeah, but the, the emotion was incredible, just the yeah and you just know that from that point on, every time um, someone else who experienced that common experience every time they're on a team's call or they're in meeting, there's just going to be this sense of connection.
Speaker 1:That means, you know, I'm sure there's going to be some teamwork benefits as a result of that extreme sort of connection moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think we should give a shout out to the McCarthy Stone Foundation because the work they do to support their communities that you know have an impact on them. And initially they were doing it around dementia, which we know is got, you know, is a part of my you know. Wow, I just think we should give them a shout because the work they did to organise that was incredible and I think you know what they were doing it for. But also providing the flapjacks by the wonderful Nina who we've met before, was again that sense of creating a community and a belonging and that was the camaraderie and the friendships that we saw come through in a really simple gesture and I just thought how powerful was that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really powerful, and I was with a client today where they have spent goodness knows how much resource and time putting together this employee engagement system where people are able to give shout outs to people and like a lot of these things. Just the bigger something gets and the more organised and scaled it gets, the more the magic is kind of gone and actually the magic of rewarding and recognising someone is just that I feel seen, I've had a connection and I'm feeling like you're actually sort of sharing a moment, and I'm so looking forward to hearing from our guest, who you're in conversation with, tash Costa-Thomas, who's going to give us some really powerful insights around. Actually, when you can create opportunities for workmates to have to work together in pressure moments, it does actually create quite a connection moment that people will still talk about years on. And so how do we create those opportunities where people get to really work together and where the goal that you're working towards is bigger than any individual difference that you might have within that team?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely Shall we listen in to what Tash had to say. So welcome everyone. As you can see, I'm joined by a guest, tash Costa-Thomas, and she will actually share with us a bit more about her background. But as Laura and I have been speaking, we wanted to extend our episode around pride and the values in pride and to extend that into July and how it works in the world of work and the friendships in particular. And Tash, who is a seasoned diversity, equity and inclusion consultant and a keynote speaker and LGBTQI plus activist based in the UK, has joined us. And LGBTQI plus activist based in the UK has joined us and, through her consultancy of KT Consulting Limited, she actually works with organisations and collaborates with them to develop their inclusive strategies that address systemic inequities and foster equitable workplace I can never say that right Equitable workplace cultures. So I'm delighted that we are able to talk to you, tash. So, for those of you who don't know you yet, give us a bit of a background as to who are you and what drives your work.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone. It's really great to be here. I love getting into these conversations, so I'm always more than happy to be here. So, yeah, my name is Tash Costa-Thomas, my pronouns are she, her.
Speaker 3:Interestingly enough, I actually have a background that's very different to this space.
Speaker 3:I come from a background in performing arts, musical theatre specifically, spent many years singing and dancing on stage and then sort of navigated my way into D&I actually through, I guess, my queer identity and really feeling motivated, empowered and, I guess, the sense of injustice, um, based on my own lived experience as an LGBTQ person, um, and being in a queer relationship as well. And that was sort of the initial, I guess, dipping my toes into what at that point I didn't know was equity, diversity and inclusion. It was just this thing that I felt pulled to and over the years that's expanded into now the consultancy that I run and actually the broader sense of inclusion and also how do we create equitable spaces, how do we have conversations, and so it expands not just within LGBTQ advocacy but also racial equity, racial equity, cultural competency as and just identity as a whole. I think actually that's the one thing that I've always been really passionate about is identity and understanding our own unique lived experience and identities that shape how we see the world, but also how the world sees us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. It's so interesting, isn't it, when you talk about that, because I'll see, in your world of performance and we know carl was a performer as well um, you know that that image you put on, that show up, in a way, somebody, something you know is not necessarily who you are can be a real challenge for some people and, I suppose, working. I'll go into that field first, because, obviously, stages of life have evolved as you've moved through and, as you said, you didn't even know what that meant at the beginning, and now it's like everywhere, right.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so what were some of the I suppose one of the challenges around friendships, um, in that performance space because Carl was talking about that as well and we we came to the conclusion that it was different in your performance world than it may be in the workplace, what I call normal corporate land. So what were your experiences?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's really interesting and I've seen this real difference in both those settings and how I communicate with people both those settings and how I communicate with people.
Speaker 3:But I think there's something around the performing arts industry as a whole is it tends to attract those who have already been othered, and it could be on a multitude of different ways, and so there's already this sense of, I guess, togetherness.
Speaker 3:I also think the arts by their very nature are quite exposing, um, and in order to be an effective performer in whatever field, whether that's acting, singing, dancing, whatever you have to have a certain level of vulnerability immediately.
Speaker 3:Um, also based on the fact I remember my first uh job working on a cruise ship you turn up on day one and you meet your now cabin mate of the next nine months and you're going to share a space that's not much bigger than a cardboard box, yes, and so you're already forced to be kind of your authentic self from day one, um, whereas the corporate setting is, it's so much more around. I've got an interview when I have to present a type of way and then and I'm trying to fit the mold that already exists to enter into this organization and then is it safe for me to to be my real self, to connect and find connection and find friendship. And so there's already this hurdle that you have to overcome. Um, well, many hurdles, I think, in a corporate setting, just by the very nature of corporate work yeah, and it's really hard.
Speaker 2:I mean I can, as you said, that I've been in like a nine-foot cabin and I'm sharing with someone I have no idea who they are um, and making friends in that bubble for that nine months. You're so, so immersed in it, aren't you? Depending how long your contract is, and then when you come out of that, that friendship can either stay, yeah, or it can just disappear, yeah, and and it's, how do we maintain friendships, um, in the world of work that continue? What is important for you in that space, in that space?
Speaker 3:I think there's. It's really interesting reflecting back on that because there are there. I remember my first ever contract and the friendships that we developed were. I mean, I got a tattoo after tattoo after that contract and whilst I don't speak to those people on a daily basis, a monthly basis or even a yearly basis, I still feel really connected to them as people. I still very much care about them. And then I think of other people who maybe I see on a relatively weekly basis and I don't have the same affection to those people. And I think there's something around very much the vulnerability shared in that setting where I feel like I was able to be my true and authentic self and that's the self that those people got to know without judgment, and I think that that's a really and it's a really core experience that we've had.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying that it was traumatic, but I also think that's the other way that people bond and hold lifelong friendship is when you've gone through some form of trauma. It doesn't have to be, you know, really really extreme. It can just be. This is a really hard work environment and it was really challenging. This boss was really mean and we've trauma bonded in that and you'll find that people then maintain that friendship far beyond that original workplace?
Speaker 2:yeah, and it's. It is fascinating. So I suppose for you it's when we think about pride and how that has evolved over the years, how you know what does that mean to you personally?
Speaker 3:a long time ago, I think pride was very much just about being able to go to a space and see like, oh my gosh, like there's, there's so many people who are queer and look at us all together and we're all part of this in group. For once, we're not. I'm not in the out group, I'm not the minority, I'm not worrying about holding hands with the person I love because everybody's doing it and it's amazing. Um, and then there was this kind of evolution thanks to a global pandemic um that really shifted what pride meant and all of a sudden it wasn't.
Speaker 3:We couldn't go out in the streets and I really missed that representation. But it really changed the conversation to like why do we celebrate pride? Why do we need to do it? And I think now even more so than ever, pride feels hardcore, like a protest to me. I look at all of the different laws that are being changed, the rights that are being taken away or the people who are not being acknowledged, and it feels political to actually be out to me day to day and specifically to be a person of colour and out feels even more political than ever before.
Speaker 2:Yeah and that shift has certainly impacted on on. You know many friendships right in in the world of work and it's how do you, I suppose, how do you navigate your way? How have you navigated your? And in your consultancy business as well, I'm assuming you have people that go oh, I don't know what to do or how to do that, or build friendships with people that are, in inverted commas, different to me. How have you navigated your way through that and what advice would you give to people?
Speaker 3:I think it's interesting. We look at difference and we often focus really heavily on difference, and I think, particularly within LGBTQ community. We've got a lot of labels and so I think people see the labels as division and difference and sometimes even polarization, and I actually think the difference is that just for people to be identified Otherwise you know the words of Kimberley Crenshaw coining the term intersectionality if we don't have a name for it, then we can't solve the problem, and similarly, if we don't have a name for certain identities, then they go unseen. And so, whilst that's one side, there's also this commonality and I think it's around recognizing that, even if a person is other to you or different to you, they're probably having a very shared experience, is they're probably different to the majority a lot of the time, and all of us in some capacity are different to a majority, and it's around finding that kind of common connection that can help really bond, and that's where you often see those.
Speaker 3:You know, I love watching tv shows where difference is thrown together. Um, and it's really. We watched one recently, my wife and I uh, outlast. It's an American based show. People are thrown into the wilderness for like and as long as they can survive, and it was really interesting to see some of the friendships, and one in particular. You had this you know, uh, 20 odd year old black guy from inner city, you know deprived area, and he ended up forming this incredible, beautiful friendship with this 70-year-old white Texan hippie woman and it was just incredible to see that. That's such difference, but the friendship that was formed was so powerful, more so and more deep than the homogenous groups of people who looked and had similar experience yeah, and I suppose that's fascinating.
Speaker 2:Is it because you mentioned about in group, out groups and how that? I suppose that can play out in different groups as well, because sometimes people think, well, I'm okay, I belong to any community, right, but I'm not going to let anybody else in or I'm not going to bring you know, so it's how do? How do I suppose, managers in the workplace navigate their way through that, because sometimes we work with line managers. You probably do as well that go. I've got such a diverse mix of a team I don't know what to do for the best. And, yeah, you know. So I mean, in your experience, have you seen any shift in management of that, or should more be done, or what are you thinking?
Speaker 3:It's really interesting. I've just come off a session actually talking specifically about belonging. I've just been delivering and the kind of like the key concepts, and I think the important thing to know is that belonging is a fundamental human need. We all have that sense of wanting to connect and belong and feel part of something, but the other side of it is that belonging also gives us a sense of identity in who we are. So if I belong to a certain group, that's also how I identify myself in the world is by connection to that group, and so I think that that can be a really powerful tool for managers to understand it's not necessarily about everybody belonging to one group, but recognizing the sense of identity that comes when people belong to the groups they belong to.
Speaker 3:The thing that I find quite most often, though, when it comes to in corporate settings, is that we have kind of the senior senior leadership, have this kind of corporate understanding of belonging and what we're trying to achieve and corporate values and you know the culture that we want to create, and then we have, maybe, the people right down on the ground, kind of front level staff, who can attend the groups and they can go to the activities and they see the employee resource networks and they're part of it. And then you have the middle management, who are key in creating it, but they feel squeezed from both sides and often actually don't have an outlet. But they're supposed to be the conductors of the culture of belonging, yet they're sort of left floundering in the middle of nowhere. And that's often actually what I see is that the people who feel like they have the least sense of belonging, but they have to be able to make everybody else feel like they belong.
Speaker 2:And that's really testing on their own mind health right, and if they identify as queer as well in the workplace, it can be a real challenge and I know we've been speaking to various people about some of the challenges people are faced with as being a manager, because they understand, yet they're trying to bring people around and create friendships across different cultures and everything around it and they struggle with that. And if there was one thing you would say to help them, what one thing would you say to them that they could do better at, be better at or do differently?
Speaker 3:I mean the immediate thing, but it's a really hard thing to do and I know why it's not done is to be vulnerable in that and to say you know, I don't have all the answers, it's really. But I think that middle, quite often people in that position are either there by default maybe somebody else left and it's you're there it's, either you're there just through tenure you're the longest person that we've had, so it made sense to promote you and so I think that often people in that kind of management position, often ill-equipped in what we call the soft skills yeah, they're the hard skills are the hardest to master fluffy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like what they're definitely not fluffy, trust me to uh, to meet a microaggression and receive it with openness and kindness. And and you know, compassion is not easy or so. And so I think there is like there's a certain level of being able to um, to be able to have that vulnerability and say I don't have all the answers, but I think that comes. The way that that comes is when we allow our team to be vulnerable and we give our team that grace and therefore, hopefully, they, they offer us the same grace in return.
Speaker 3:The most ineffective sort of management I've seen is when it's this is my way, I feel like I have to do it this way because somebody else is watching me and you feel all of that pressure and therefore it almost feels like a dictatorship and therefore nobody is able to thrive. And it's interesting because I've been in organizations or supported organizations, where that can be department to department, right, yeah, where I've been in focus groups and and I can almost tell without knowing, without somebody saying I know which department you've come from by what you're sharing in this focus group, because you're having this real positive experience versus this person. It was the same thing I keep hearing is super negative and it it's manager.
Speaker 2:Um is the is the one kind of differentiator yeah, in those moments, and I suppose it's how do we equip people because, um, I suppose one of the things we're looking back in organizations is you know what, in your experience, what are some of the most common misconceptions um, organizations do have about the lgbtq plus and inclusion? What do you see?
Speaker 3:I think that there's, and maybe it's just through I think this comes from media in general is just the representation, that of how our community is represented in mass media, right?
Speaker 3:So I think one of the most common is that everybody had a really traumatic coming out story, is that everybody is, and whilst we, when we actually think about this, we know it's not the case, but in terms of the behaviors, everybody's able-bodied. The most of the community is white, most of the community, like it, is neurotypical or, and I think that's how things are catered to. So we'll do sort of pride events that center around the networking or the big party or the big or that everybody in the queer community likes to socialize or is of a certain age. And you know, I think there's it's all of these stereotypes that are fed to us through over years and years and years of media representation, right, and actually there's a very different. And also I think there's this misconception that everybody who is maybe out or is known to be out is content in that identity and feels great about their queerness and feels empowered by it, and that's not the experience of everybody.
Speaker 2:That's a massive assumption that people make, then, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 3:um, just because I'm at the pride network or I've attended the thing, doesn't necessarily mean that I'm not still grappling with you know, for me I've mean that I'm not still grappling with you know, for me, I've technically been out since I was like 16, but it doesn't mean that I don't still grapple with how I fit in and the expectations I have. A massive thing where, after my wife and I talk about it, where, being a cisgendered woman in a lesbian relationship, people always try and put us in heteronormative roles. And, you know, based off of that, people would say and I always have quite a strong personality compared to my wife is a much more of a kind of a softer person, um, on first impression, and so people always default me to the man in the relationship. Okay, and being, oh, you must be the like, if I, if I want to put it, you must be the guy in the relationship.
Speaker 3:And for a really long time I've really struggled with it used to manifest as if we were going out and my wife was wearing heels. Well then, I have to wear heels, because I don't want people then to see me as the guy. Oh, you're wearing a skirt. Well then, I'll wear a skirt right. So it's really interesting people think that, oh, because you're out and you're comfortable with being queer doesn't necessarily mean that you're, like, fully comfortable in that identity and what that identity means to you, and you don't still get impacted by how society sees you within that identity?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it happens all the time, doesn't it really? And then I think it's really interesting because you talk a lot about systemic change, right. And I think it's really interesting because you talk a lot about systemic change, right. And I suppose one of the things is how do we create real sustainable change? Actually, what does it look like in practice? As you said? So that association or just pigeonholing you into well, you must be that that's just crazy, right? So how do we do it in practice? So, as you said, with all what's going on in the world today and I know our previous guests through our June series, talked a lot about the impact of media and what's happening in the world today generally but, yeah, how do we what? And what does it look like in practice? Sustainable change?
Speaker 3:I think it's around conversations and continued conversation. I think for a long time and we saw this, you know it became change that like having a pride logo and celebrating pride in the workplace wearing a lanyard and like that's valuable, but then it just stopped there and didn't really do anything different after that.
Speaker 3:And then, like we kind of got oh, oh, like a pandemic happened and, ok, like 10 years later we kind of had a change. And I think it's around continuing to have the conversations so that every year Pride is going to look a little bit different, because every single year something different is happening on the planet and we're having different experiences. I also think there's something around do a lot of work around cultural humility, which is, um, I guess, broken down in a. In this perspective, it's, um, the ongoing process of self-reflection, self-critique, but also with the view to when you meet people wanting to learn from them, um, and meeting somebody and respecting their values, their beliefs and their behaviors.
Speaker 3:Right, and I think that there's something around, in the same way that society evolves, pride evolves, but individuals evolve, and so meeting the pride conversation with, not like I have all the expertise and I know everything, so this is what you need, but actually like, who are you, the person in front of me, and what?
Speaker 3:What's beneficial to you this year for pride? Cause last year it may have been, I know, coming out of a pandemic. Everybody wanted a party. I want to be able to be with community Right and and really acknowledge that and celebrate that, whereas now it might feel a little bit different. Actually, it's a little bit like okay, maybe we really have to get into our policies and review the systems that we have in place and how we're supporting our staff on a more structural level, because that's what society is reflecting back at us right now. Um, and the important thing I know for my trans friends isn't about oh, are we going to have a trans party? It's around what's your healthcare policy in the workplace? And like are you getting suckered into the bathroom debate and will I still be able to go to the toilet at work?
Speaker 2:right, that's the more important thing versus like, let's all have drinks for pride yeah, I get you, and I just think that that was one of the um. So my follow-up question around that was what makes a good ally, beyond the rainbow flags and hashtags, actually, so what do you think makes a good ally?
Speaker 3:I think it's funny. My wife and I were having this conversation today, um, specifically around um, racial allyship, uh. So I'd had a couple of experiences recently that really required that and, um, the question was kind of posed was, like what's needed, like what does that look like? And we often talk about like speaking up and speaking up being this kind of outwardly confrontational thing. But I also think that, to me, speaking up should always be about conversation full stop.
Speaker 3:But I also think that speaking up can be actually speaking up to an individual, and so, right now, even the forms of allyship that I do to other queer folk is that when I see something happening, or even when I don't, I'm just going to check in with you, actually like how are you doing? How are you doing with? I've just seen this happen, or I haven't seen your presence for a while on social media, or I haven't, we haven't messaged her. I just want to check in, like how are you finding the world right now as you? Um, and I think that that can be a really impactful and powerful form of allyship that I think people kind of get stuck on. Well, you know, the policy is this or we can't do that or we can't change that. But what you can do is you can speak to a person and and show that you are visibly standing with them yeah, um, and that's you can.
Speaker 2:We can all do that, right, yeah, for whatever reason, um, and who knows what goes on in people's minds it's it's always fascinating is to, because people are people ultimately. And I suppose, when you think about your stages through work, because obviously, as you said, you know you've got young child, so how did that create what you know? What've got a young child? So how did that create what you know? What sort of ripple did that create? Because you mentioned about people will assume you're the guy in that relationship. Um, yeah, how. And now you're you, your parents, you know how is. How has that evolved?
Speaker 3:oh wow, there's, where do we start?
Speaker 2:where do we start.
Speaker 3:For anyone here who is a parent who's recently become, oh, you know, you just asked me, like what's the meaning of life? Literally? There's so many different layers to that. In terms of, I think foremost is to kind of context is that I was the one who birthed our child. So, from a like just birthing parent perspective and all of the hormonal identity changes that that entails, um, for me personally, I had no concept of what have I done, like how it was going to transform who I am as a person. Um, she turned two in May and it's only in like the like the last seven or so weeks since she turned two that I feel like, oh, this is who I, okay, this is who I know, who I am. Again, like it's taken. They talk about matrescence is the transition from um through, from being pregnant to birthing and becoming mum, um, and they say it can last up to two years.
Speaker 3:It lasted the full two years literally, you were literally yeah, I felt every single moment of that and so, and then you layer that with being like a queer parent and the kind of intersections of of that, and then just like when we take out the queerness of it and we just look at like the transition of becoming a parent, parent in the workplace and parental equity and parental equity is often focused through the lens of heterosexual relationships, um, and actually where does parental equity sit in when we're talking from a same-sex, or adoptive parents or foster parents, non-binary parents, right, and all of these additional elements that I think make the workplace a really kind of intimidating and unnerving place and, I guess, a really ambiguous place.
Speaker 3:It's filled with so much uncertainty when you add in all of these other intersections, um, that I feel like for a long time, workplaces just kind of go well, yeah, oh well, we don't know. So, yeah, like you get statutory maternity pay and like there we go, sleep to HR, and you're just kind of left, and so I think it's a really, really challenging additional layer.
Speaker 2:It is, isn't it? Because I was talking to somebody earlier, actually, and they were looking at their whole maternity, paternity policy, or family friendly policy, as they called it, and it was really interesting that just they've said we don't do enough, because they've been listening to different things and thinking, ok, it's a standard old policy, as you said, and she said, but how do we change that? I said, just change it. You know what do you want to change? How might you change it? You know things from there. But the fact that they're a small organization that are already thinking about this, I was just like, wow, I haven't heard. Maybe you have, in your experience of people, you know organizations that are actually considering what does that extra layer look like? Because it's not, you know, just male and female, right, there are so many different things and and it was really interesting to hear them start to go I don't know how we begin and it was like, okay, well, actually I'm talking to somebody a bit later that may be able to help you, yeah yeah where do they begin?
Speaker 3:yeah, it's one. I mean, it's one of these things that I'm saying, interestingly enough, like one of the main kind of talks that I was or have. The problem, the talk I've, even most this year so far, is actually in parental equity, um, over and above everything else. So I see it a lot more in the workplace and it's coming up, which I just boggles my mind anyway, because we're in 2025 and like, how much of the population is a parent in the workplace? Yeah, okay, well, that's by the by um, but still it's, it's very much through, and I think that that's I mean without blowing my own trumpet.
Speaker 3:That's where I have a unique position, where often, when I come to these conversations and I'll talk about it, and every single time in a conversation where I'm talking about parental equity and, yes, I'll say you know, for intents and purposes, a lot of what I will be talking about, because most of the research is through binary parenting and heteronormative parenting, and so that's all I can give you from a data perspective, but I'm going to give you my personal perspective. There will always be queer parents in that chat that like. Thank you. Thank you for like, for naming us and for acknowledging us, and so I think, first and foremost, you may not have the answers, but acknowledge the moment, acknowledge the challenge, acknowledge that these people we do exist, is the beginning step. You don't have to come with all the answers, but sometimes I think that's the problem that happens is that because we don't have solutions, we don't have answers, we just don't talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is mad isn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we just hope it goes away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not going to go away, and that's the you go. Come on, put your head above the parapet, let's talk about it. But for some it's super uncomfortable and, yeah, I suppose if people then are having, or they haven't got friends at work but they have them outside of work, that must be a minefield sometimes if you know you're from the queer community, to navigate your way through that. If you're not getting that extra support and it's again, how do we, how do we create that environment where people can be themselves? Um, and I know that's a somebody said to me, um a couple of weeks back that oh, you're just, you know, pie in the sky, it's never gonna happen. I went, but why not?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's your opinion, and yeah yeah, we got into a little bit of a conversation about it, which was very interesting, um, as you can imagine, but it was really interesting around you know, I suppose, also what's giving you hope right now, because with everything that's going on in the world in the fight for queer is so liberation and equity, and especially from a parental perspective as well, um, what is giving you hope?
Speaker 3:I think the moments that I do get hope from are when I see some small form of action or recognition, um, or acknowledgement or you know, and even actually the hope that I get is it's interesting, you know, beginning of this year, everyone's going, oh well, like DNI is disappearing, like no one's doing it, and but I still draw hope from every time I get an email with someone saying hey, tash, I will. You know, my organization is doing this and we're currently looking for a speaker on this, and would you be? That gives me hope. People are still emailing me, still messaging me on LinkedIn to have these conversations and want to have these conversations. They may not always be perfect. They may still need to have a lot of work being done in terms of what it looks like.
Speaker 3:You know tomorrow that this week I'm going to go and actually, ironically, deliver um, anti-racism training within a local pride organization in the southwest of the UK and actually not far from where I grew up, and that gives me hope because you're an organization with a demographic where you're situated whereby actually, the majority of your demographic is white. I know I grew up here and so it'd be really easy for you to just be like well, we cater to our demographic and we're doing fine, and actually the fact that you are taking the time to invest in actually, how can we do more. This is it may not be a lot of people here, but you're one of them. You were black and queer growing up in this part of the country, and so how do we reach you? How do we reach young versions of you?
Speaker 2:um, and that that gives me hope that people are really willing to like get in the mud and like do the hard stuff, just do the hard stuff, and, as you said, we, you know people don't always get it right, but no, having the conversation, which is what you said earlier, is like, you know, I may be completely off the scale, but have that conversation with me so I can at least understand it, and I suppose it's thinking about the future. Really, you know, if you could shape the next decade of pride, what would you prioritise?
Speaker 3:I could shape the next decade.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the next decade, because, as you said, it's come so far and the pandemic hit in the middle, which shook everything up again, and we're halfway through this decade. So what would? What would I suppose? Yeah, if you could shape it, what, how would you? What would be your magic wish?
Speaker 3:I think it's about being conscious, um, about how we, to be honest, actually do you know what? I would stop it. I'd almost want to stop it being just a month. Yeah, I'd actually, like I recognize the importance of June being pride month, um, but there's sometimes I feel like that's like it almost ends up being counter sometimes, because your, your feed gets flooded for a month and you see it everywhere and then it just kind of disappears. And I see this with when I support employee resource networks where, like the chair's like exhausted by the end of June. I know so many of my friends are exhausted by the end of June, and so I feel like like I love the fact that this conversation is extending through July, and I think that that's what I would do is like make it. You know, how do we ensure that that same appetite, response, willingness to learn exists all year round in everyday conversation and it's not just, oh, we're only going to do it then and then, like pride's done Well let's start thinking about Black History Month and October.
Speaker 2:Yeah's the next one. You could read. You could read it, can't you? You go, oh gosh. Okay, we should be just chatting about this, normal as in everyday conversations. Yeah, and that's something all of our other guests have said. It's just about having the conversation and not, as you said, not just focusing in one particular time. It's great to raise the awareness and, you know, enhance it, but the conversation should continue and I suppose employee resource groups must, as you said, must have their work cut out.
Speaker 3:So exhausted by the end and like all the budget gets put there and only there and it just yeah, and I know, you know they're competing with lots of other things, but I think that's also the other thing is that it seems like they're competing lots of other things, but I think that's also the other thing is that it seems like they're competing oh yeah, but then we're competing with Black History Month. Oh, but then we're competing with Disability Awareness Week and actually there's intersections there. Like Pride can feed into that. Disability Awareness Week can feed into Pride. It can certainly feed into like Black History Month and recognizing the plight of neurodivergent black and brown folk throughout history. Right, and I think like that's where we get this polarization. Actually it's about recognizing, kind of coming back to what we're talking about earlier. Is that that otherness and everybody feeling that sense of otherness? And actually how do we find that commonality? And yeah, I mean intersectionality is something that I feel very passionate about, just based on who I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I would say we have to get you back to share more about that, because we wanted to continue the conversation and you know, just, you know, highlight that it just doesn't stop. It's like I think it was Sophie that did say about it's not just wearing the lanyard and the badge it's it's we and you know what else go beyond that and the badge it's it's yeah, and you know what else go beyond that? And I was talking to um, somebody from pride 365, the organization, um, who was brilliant to talk to, and um, and they were saying around, you know, they were talking about the fa and foot. You know rainbow laces and yeah, and they're doing some work around that at the moment. And you're right, it's not just a one and you're done right, but it's how we overcome that no, and we can't underestimate the power.
Speaker 3:I mean I don't know if you've seen the Norway the Oslo Pride trig video that was kind of going everywhere around like the symbols and like don't underestimate the power of that symbol, of a pride flag, and so it's then being okay, like we have that symbol. What do we do behind that symbol? We have that symbol, what do we do behind that symbol? Because it still means the world to me. Yes, I'm British and I'm here for the Union Jack, but this is the most important flag to me and it means the most to me when I see it in places. I will definitely do pride flags spotting when I'm travelling.
Speaker 2:Because I think that's it, isn't it? Because you do spot it and Bruce, before you would not have noticed it. But then when, as soon as it's out there, it's like you know the same, as you know you everybody. Somebody says look for a red car, and they say look for the green car, and you go oh well, I can only see red cars.
Speaker 1:But you know it's the similar thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:the more you are aware of it, the more you see it, the more you notice it, the more you can be hopefully curious and inquisitive and, yeah, explore to understand better from there. Oh, my god, I love this conversation. So I'm gonna have to ask you one last question, because I know, um, if you, I suppose what's the question I want to ask what advice would you give to your younger self, knowing what you know? Now? I know that's not planned and I've just landed that question on you, but what would you say?
Speaker 3:I should actually. It's emotional.
Speaker 2:Oh, bless you.
Speaker 3:I would say that not that it was a big struggle for me coming out that like it wasn't that but I would say that your intersections, the various different isms and others that you have, are going to ultimately be your superpower. All of those environments that you are in where you feel this is just like I don't. I'm different here, and it's not necessarily that I don't fit here and I don't belong. I just feel really different here and it feels sometimes uncomfortable to be different. Um, that is going to be your superpower. Going forward, um, and to know that like and I guess to say this to like a future, younger self and like to be the representation that you didn't have. Um, I guess that's the thing like we started this with, kind of what fuels the work, and that, ultimately, is what fuels the work is that I want to be the representation, the voice, the visual for the little brown queer girl growing up in Plymouth.
Speaker 2:I love that. Oh my God, I can feel it. It's like, well, when you ask that question, you go, oh God, yeah. So I really appreciate that because you're right, that's we can see people there, that's what makes the biggest difference. And you're not alone then. And it's like, oh, but it's, how do we encourage that? So, oh my God, tash, this has been such a great conversation to have with you. So how do people reach out to you and find you.
Speaker 3:There are lots of different ways so you can probably. I'm actually very present on LinkedIn so you can search Tash Costa Thomas, that's obviously Costa. It's about forever going to be saying this thanks to my wife K-O-S-T-E-R. Not like the coffee, not the coffee brand. Yes, thanks, wife for that one.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, find me on LinkedIn. You can also find me on Instagram, which is TashTee UK, and then my wife and I have a platform, also on Instagram, which is around really that representation, that queer representation now, especially as we're a same-sex couple with a child living in a camper van travelling around Europe. So, if you want like real niche representation, that is us and that's Breaking the Distance on Instagram. So any of those spaces you can find me in.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's amazing, and we'll certainly make sure people are aware of that as well. But it's just been a real pleasure to talk to you, tash, and I cannot thank you enough for your time. And, yeah, I say we could speak forever, but people will reach out for sure, because I know what you have to share is something that's so invaluable that why would we not chat further to you? So, thank you for your time today and look forward to chatting again. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3:Bye. Thank you so much for having me. Bye, bye.
Speaker 2:So, Laura, what did you?
Speaker 1:take from that. I absolutely loved it, really fascinating.
Speaker 2:Because I've loved how she talked about how inclusive are we? You know, do we reach out to people? Do we observe what's going on and feel obliged, not obliged, feel the need to want to go? I see this is going on in the world. How are you?
Speaker 2:Because I really enjoyed when she talked about checking in with people and making sure that just because they might be, in inverted commas, different or they're the others, actually it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:You can still be human and reach out to people and build that friendship with the camaraderie that you create with it. Um, and I think it links to performance, as she said, because the friendships you create in your work will ultimately impact on your performance. And I like the fact that she said you know, when you're thrown together in an environment like she was an ex-dancer uh, ex-performer chucked on a cruise ship for nine months with people she had no idea who they were, so therefore you had to be you and to be vulnerable in that small group really helped her and the friendship she made from that are still part of her life years on. And I know you've experienced where you've just been thrown together in into you know, an unknown situation for you, where you were all different, and so, therefore, you were able to create a friendship in that moment, which you continued. So how did that feel?
Speaker 1:oh, my god, that was amazing. So it was part of the school of facilitation um. So fest that's run by am kirsty lewis and this amazing collaboration is created of coaches, facilitators and trainers and, um, on a whim, I kind of went oh yeah, I'll go to that. And I sort of booked back in nine months ago to come and go on this facilitator festival. And then so the night before I'm thinking, oh my God, I'm going to have to share a tent with two randoms, and of course everyone is thinking that. So, because everyone sort of went, oh my God, we're going to sort of share a tent, there was just this shared thing of oh well, actually we're all feeling a little bit wobbly about it. There was a camaraderie and a bit of a connection. But I was also just thinking actually about how I chaperoned this weekend at my daughter's dance show.
Speaker 1:And there's nothing quite as character building and friendship forming as they're going is the right dancer on stage. So, even if you're behind the scenes and not front of house, that the show must go on. We're working together for something that has like a purpose and a meaning, is really bonding. And you know, there's a little secret smile that all of our chaperones will give whenever we're dropping our kids off at dance, of like oh yeah, you're one of the gang even though we may never have sort of interacted sort of before.
Speaker 1:So I just think what Tash was saying about how sometimes it's the event that creates the need to work together, even if you might not have chosen each other outside work, but from that some really amazing friendships can form. And those two women that I randomly shared a tent with, we've now on our WhatsApp and we're sharing you know know sort of uh you know stories and advice and a really helpful kind of sort of resource and that's well.
Speaker 2:That's where friendships are so important, and I know that was our topic for this month, right, and I think you know tash sort of speech says about. You know, there's no judgment. If you're in a proper friendship, it's I'm here to support you, I'm here to work with you, connect with you, and so therefore you have a common connection. So finding that common connection is what brings you together as friends, and you may go on to keep that friendship. But I think you know that whole.
Speaker 2:What we've been talking about this whole month is I think it's been really powerful to talk about the power of friendships. And some people will be in your life as friends for a very long time and some may not be, but that's okay, because at some point you've bonded together with a lived experience and therefore you will always have that connection in some form of another, and that's what friendship's about, right absolutely yeah, and this was spawned from a conversation we had a number of months ago around actually friendships rather than just a sort of guilty, accidental byproducts of having to work with each other.
Speaker 1:What Gallup's poll shows is when you feel like you've got a best friend at work, you're far more likely to be engaged and want to deliver your best work. And if we think about our own little gorgeous work collective, we're all friends, we've become friends through work and there wouldn't be a major life celebration or event where we wouldn't invite each other at now, and pretty much every wedding or big party I'd go to. When you ask, you know, because I'm partying all the time, debs, you know when you step out.
Speaker 1:When you step out that helicopter at Cannes.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, and you watch the lovely, wonderful people walk around.
Speaker 1:When I say helicopter, I mean Uber, and when I say Cannes, I mean slug and lettuce. Keeping it real, lord, keeping it real. Keeping it real and you're trying to open up your wine box, I mean pour the champagne. And actually, at those events, a lot of people, by the time you sort of get to a certain age, the people you've gathered are ones that you've met in work, and so my sort of share, the secret would be and it'd be great to hear your call to action is if actually you are just really wanting to create more opportunities to create common connections at work, because if you're feeling a bit lonely and isolated, I bet someone else is as well. What could be something that you put on the radar that gives a team of people a goal to focus on? That's just bigger than maybe the individuals that are in it. So you've got that sense of kind of working together as a collective, and then from that you know the morale and that energy is more likely to flow.
Speaker 2:So that would be my share this evening Get someone else to listen to this and rustle up some teammates. I love that. My call to action would be similar to what we've actually done through June as well and we continued this in through to friendships as well, because I think they work really well together was continue to have conversations with people. That would be my call to action. Check in with people. If you see something going on in the world and you know that that could be impacting on somebody in your team, find out how they're doing. Just check in with them. That would be my call to action.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nice one, Debs. So yeah, big, big call out again to the McCarthy Stone Foundation and all of those walkers. You are truly inspirational.
Speaker 2:Oh, completely. Yeah, Rather than the me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and we didn't even just bring the flapjacks. Actually, that was Nina.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was Nina yeah.
Speaker 1:We bought the speakers to play disco music. Yes, we did play.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will survive. Keep on walking. It was hysteric, it was brilliant.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you said that friendships have been formed. Yeah, yeah, and of course this marks the end of our four-part focus on friendships. Yeah, for july it's been really fab, hasn't it? So we've got august is coming up soon, I know summer holidays yeah, and that's a five-part series um deb, so we love the spf out absolutely, and spf, we're gonna cover, stands for self-preservation focus.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's what we're gonna look at. So how going to look at? So, how do you look at yourself and, as the sun is shining, you don't get burnt out? Exactly, that's going to be a really good focus. Can't wait for that. We're going to keep them nice and cheap and cheerful, like a little city break. So each one, like a little bucket Bucket is paid. Yeah, and that's going to be looking at. Yeah, how do we, how do we apply spf self-preservation?
Speaker 2:focus love that. So, um, devs, have a fantastic week you too, and I look forward to um some spfing with you next week. Wonderful look after yourself. That is quite a visual image. Hey, let's just leave it there now. I.
Speaker 1:I was going to sit in the shade. Thanks, deb, much as I appreciate the opportunity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, let's just yeah, should we go? Let's leave now I think, yeah, I love you lots Laura.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love you lots too, Besties.
Speaker 3:See you later. Have a fab week.
Speaker 1:Love you, love you.
Speaker 3:Bye.
Speaker 1:We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact, at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, no-transcript.