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Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast
254. Next-Gen Success: Expectations, Etiquette & Role Models
In this episode we explore how to set the next generation up for success at work — and what that means for leaders, managers, and colleagues today. We are joined by the brilliant Katharine Allan who is passionate about bridging the gap between intergenerational norms to create successful and flourishing cultures.
We’ll dive into:
- Expectations — how to be clear, fair, and flexible without lowering the bar.
- Etiquette — the small everyday behaviours that build respect across generations.
- Role models — why what you do matters more than what you say when it comes to leading new talent.
Whether you’re welcoming Gen Z into your team, navigating different workplace styles, or reflecting on how to retain great people, this episode is about building bridges, not barriers.
Practical tips, honest reflections, and a reminder that every generation has something to teach — and something to learn.
Katharine can be contacted via LinkedIn and details of her charity Campus to Campus can be found here
Coming up on this week's Secrets from a Coach. There's a 30,000 to 1 job application ratio for vacancies in the big companies, correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a real moment, isn't it? For a graduate to basically throw their hat in the ring. And these applications, by the way, do not take five minutes. They're a good two to three hours to complete. But it's absolutely fine that you're not the VP of partnerships at some major bank in job one. It's really. You know, that's not what you're aiming for. You're aiming for access to the next rung on the ladder. That's all you're aiming for.
Speaker 1:Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Stavely of Phenomenal Training Debbs.
Speaker 3:Laura, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm doing well. How many poor young people have you given feedback to while they've been stacking the shelves in the supermarket? Based on last week's episode.
Speaker 3:Based on last week's episode. I know I was very mindful of that, actually Law. But yeah, to smile at people, I think, yeah, they're doing a good job, they were working really hard. And just that comment and passing, I did say one to one guy stacked some amazing shelves and he was working really hard and I went that looks amazing.
Speaker 1:And he looked at me as if to go nutter, and that was off the back of our first in our current four-part focus looking at setting up next generation for success in the world of work.
Speaker 1:And uh, last week's focus was looking at, well, what are some of those core foundations that um can can be instilled, and and we had quite a bit of conversation around well, what does that then mean for us? If you consider yourself a a fully grown adult in the world of work, what does that then mean in terms of us um playing our part in instilling those core foundations? And the opposite judgment, not about forcing one generation to emulate and copy what we've done, but all in the spirit of working well together so we can take each generation's best bits, which is a really nice setup for this second focus, where we have a guest.
Speaker 3:We do have a guest.
Speaker 1:And this is the fantastic Catherine Allen who it was about. Nearly a year and a half ago, I think that I met her at a friend's wedding mutual friend's wedding, brilliant and we just hit it off and as soon as I started to find out what her focus is, I just thought, oh my God, me and Debs would be right over this. So we're going to hear from Catherine Allen what her focus is. I just thought, oh my God, me and Debs would be right over this. So we're going to hear from Catherine Allen, who she's the founder of KSA Consulting. She also runs Campus to Campus, a charity, and her purpose is how to bridge that gap between graduates and people then moving into their first role. So I hope you enjoy it, debs. So I'm sitting here with Catherine and I'm so looking forward to this conversation that we're going to have.
Speaker 1:Catherine Allen, you and I met at a dear friend of ours, zoe Lewis's wedding last year and we had a drunk up conversation and we got going. We couldn't stop. So it's a joy to have you on, really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on how we can set up next generation talent. So why don't you give us a bit of background? Who are you? What's your current area of interest? And then we can, uh, get under the under the bonnet of looking at this big topic of maximizing intergenerational talent and all that that means. So who are you? Tell us about yourself?
Speaker 2:thank you so much. Um, it's a delight to be invited onto the podcast and you're quite right, when we first met we couldn't stop talking, so hopefully we can contain our enthusiasm for the next 25 minutes. But yeah, let me tell you so I'm Catherine. I'm a transformation leader, which really, in reality, what does it really mean? It means I pilot into businesses and I support them with everything kind of transformation oriented. So you might be restructuring your teams, or you might be looking at retention of talent, you might be looking at commercials, you might be looking at culture. It's a real blend. I could get a mixture of things kind of thrown my way, but the real thread that kind of runs through everything that I do is that I love intergenerational talent as a theme. I really find it fascinating to listen to the generation younger than me, which seems to be more people than not nowadays, and then the generation ahead, and I think that what we can learn from one another is really fascinating. So I try and weave a lot of that into my work.
Speaker 1:So what's your current area of focus? What are you seeing around you? And I guess what would be really fascinating to hear is why is this such a thing that maybe anyone in the world of work who either leads or is part of a team um, it's useful to have this on on our radar. So what's the context behind it and the compelling reason for why this is a topic of our time that deserves a bit of attention?
Speaker 2:I mean I think it's obvious that between different generations we see different styles, different learning styles, different approaches to life, different approaches to tech, all those kind of things. What I'm really fascinated about by the generation that's coming through into work right now is that academically they are really rich, they're smart cookies, they're switched on, they know their subjects inside out, but the etiquette of coming to work or the expectations of what happens when I actually get there is mismatched. We're not seeing, with our graduates coming through, that they really understand the landscape of work, but also that they understand the landscape of relationships. It's really interesting to watch these waves of young people who have studied hard, who have got amazing qualifications come through and just not hit the mark in terms of relationships in the office and that can play out in a number of different ways. So you might find that, from a retention perspective, you find that graduates fall out of the system really quite quickly.
Speaker 2:You know, within three to six months we're seeing people fall out of graduate programmes that they've worked, you know, three or four years at university to get their degree for and then they're actually leaving those precious jobs, of which there are few. We're seeing a real mismatch as well, I think, in the expectations of graduates. You know, they come into the workplace and they think, oh, I'm about to be promoted within five minutes of being there and their promotion expectations are vast and far-reaching. So the reason I think this is a really important topic right now is because, well, one retention you know the cost of recruitment is high. We really want these people to be the feeders that run through the rhythm of our businesses as they grow. We also want to make sure that they are going to provide multiple different pieces of value across the business. You know, and if we're constantly stop starting with our recruitment and our sort of onboarding of graduates, then we stop starting all the other teams in the business as well.
Speaker 1:So it's a it's a heavy cost to get this wrong right and it's a disruption to the culture, and I think for me it's a really interesting theme just to to see that balance of academia and well, let's just call it life skills, right, and and the understanding of what that's supposed to be like in work and of course, what you and I got so passionate about is this is, or these kind of uh challenges, as you're saying are, are it can't not be relevant that there was a pandemic five years ago that for many of these new generation coming to the world of work would have hit them at a time where they might have had maximum socializing. You know, you're starting to allow to go out, you're, you're getting your own social circle and just where those kind of life skills are kind of learned. Um, and it's really as I'm listening to you talk, I'm thinking about some of the things that we and in our team sort of hear people saying in leadership workshops, and it can sometimes prompt a bit of eye rolling, with people saying, oh, you know the new generation and the expectations, and I think what's quite poignant about the time of us recording this conversation? Here we are in autumn 2025.
Speaker 1:It was 30 years ago that I went to university. So in october 1995 I went to uni and I was one of the last batch that went through without having to add a student loan, but it was just for cost of living, it wasn't for the actual training. So I didn't leave with 40, 50 grand's worth of debt around my neck. So therefore, that sort of desire to get promoted quickly I might have wanted to have done it, but there wasn't a financial need I think maybe quite suppressing is now to up your salary as quickly as you can. So I think when when in a in a workshop with sort of fully grown adults, you hear them rolling their eyes about you know this, this law, um actually, when someone sort of pipes up saying, well, actually, my, my kid is currently saddled with 50 grand's worth of debt, and so it puts a different perspective on it. So what would be your take on what things that maybe existing people in an organisation can do to get this talent integration kind of going well, to help that etiquette, skills transfer?
Speaker 2:I think we take it for granted that the skills of just turning up on time, how to greet people, how to stand up and do a presentation, all these kind of things that we take for granted, that we've probably learned the hard way by watching our peers as we were going through work. I think in the best onboarding programmes that I've seen, they don't just cover the handbook of the office and what your role is about. They do break down the real nitty gritty of how, how to perform, how to be and, I dare I say it, how to be an adult in the workplace. If the meeting starts at nine, it starts at nine, it doesn't start at quarter past nine. They're really having to spell this out, however. In so doing, they are finding that this is actually something that is helping the graduates right. So spelling it out, getting a buddy. So they often have two buddies, so a buddy ahead and a buddy ahead of that, but not in the same team.
Speaker 2:I think that's really important and that's often why I find, as a neutral party, going into businesses it's quite powerful. Is there's no skin in the game, right? If I go into a business, it's just me going in. I don't, you know, I don't care whether you get promoted, you know, from that perspective it's very neutral.
Speaker 2:And I think when they provide buddies within the workplace who are if you're in the finance team, then they'll get someone from HR or someone from procurement, someone who's a few chapters ahead, who can actually be that person, to show them in a really active way, not in a sort of at arm's length on email, but in a really active way how to show up, what to do, how to you know hold the space in a meeting or how to you know all those horrible things that we've had to learn when we sit through meetings when we were junior and we used to think, oh, I've got something I think I want to say, but I don't know if I should say it yet, I don't know when to interrupt, or, you know, is what I say going to be completely pointless?
Speaker 2:All those kind of things that is probably sort of going on in their head. They will spell it out to them and say to them let's just use this as a playground, you can't get it wrong. So I think those basic tips of spelling out all the things that we know are in our head. So when we were going through that process and giving them those gifts, because, you're totally right, 50 grand is a minimum sort of debt that these students are coming out with, but if they're leaving those jobs they're going to be further and further away from paying that debt off. So incorporating these kind of life skills into the rhythm of their onboarding is so valuable for everybody really, and sets the tone of what to expect.
Speaker 1:And what's been quite surprising this year is still the rumbling conflicts around hybrid working and the sweet spot ratio of working remotely, working in office. What's been your take on some of the best practice that you've seen in your, around, your clients, of how to maximize the benefits of hybrid working and minimizing the sort of the challenges? So I'd love your take on what you're seeing in real life around, because there are many organizations we're working with who are still wrangling with that. What's the appropriate balance? How do you then meet the needs of people at different life stages? So I'd love to hear your take on what you're seeing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, and it's varied, right. I don't know that any businesses have got it completely right. I don't know when we will, but what I'm seeing is, if you say these are the days, specifically, that I expect you to be that very nebulous, and they will almost, in some cases, think that that means it's quite fluid. I can come in in the morning on Monday, but I'll be home in the afternoon, which, of course, we would imagine to be very disruptive If you've gone in, you've gone in, but they will see that as a really flexy kind of two to three days across the span of the week, which I think we can all interpret as not a great interpretation of that two to three days, but I think, if you set the days it's monday, tuesday and thursday in the office, or whatever it is then that then that feels sensible. I do think, though, that, um, because of the debt that we've talked about, you know that students are coming out with I do think that, um, they have mostly got, as far as I can see.
Speaker 2:Anyway, another eye on another prize. That is a real problem with this generation is that they don't think that they're working one job. They're in these corporate jobs in the office and they're quite often having a little side hustle on the side, which I can't claim that you know nobody else does that at all. That's not a generational thing where you know lots of people do that kind of thing. I do think it has more impact, though, when you're new to the world of work, because you're still establishing what your etiquette really should be and your performance and how you're going to move forward, how you're going to make those relationships, and I do think with half an eye out of the room, that's going to be very difficult to do that. So lots of them are working evenings or they've got something else going on, so this is just something that they're doing, and I think in that acknowledgement of that relationship, you're already not really throwing it all in, and I think that's going to be a problem for all the things that you're trying to achieve.
Speaker 1:Now how interesting, because you've just triggered a memory actually of um a line manager, um a leader or in a uh who managed a team in a high street retailer, saying how one of the challenges she was having is two of her new kind of intakes from quite sort of junior roles with really busy roles. Um, one of them had a side hustle of running a cafe and actually the challenge then of what happens if that side hustle like if there's a sickness, that end she would then call in sick her end and then go and cover it.
Speaker 2:And I just thought that was a one-off, but listening to you talking now, has that become quite a trend then to have a side hustle if I mean, I've heard it multiple times and I think it does depend on industry, right, if you come out as a graduate into being a solicitor or something like that, I don't think you see this kind of behavior because the reality is the salaries are much higher to start off going into the world of the work, and the commitment and the accuracy, let's just say, of what you have to do in your day job is so advanced that we can't be messing around with that.
Speaker 2:I think if we're going into what can reasonably be called office work whatever that could classify as across a different genre if you feel that, particularly when you're working from home, that there's nobody you know really watching what's going on here, then probably I can see loads of these side hustles popping up. And I think the other thing is as well is, you know, to pay off this debt? A lot of these people are living together still. They're still adopting that university structure of four of us are going to share a house. So if all four of us are going to be working from home, then it does slightly move us out into that child relationship again and out of that adult relationship. Your parental relationship is not there in that household anymore, so the structure of how you're supposed to live and be is still quite fluid. Um, and I think that, yeah, I see that all the time that these side hustles are popping up, mainly for cash, but the focus is therefore distracted.
Speaker 1:Are we the old-fashioned ones having this view that you give your full psychological and physical commitment to one employer and you're on a payroll Like is that just a bit sort of quaintly early 2000s? Because this is what I find really fascinating, catherine is are we trying to hold on to these maybe quite quaint, old-fashioned ways of you shake hands, you hold the door open for people, you offer guests to your office, you know a hot drink? Is that old-fashioned? And within 10 to 15 years it's just not going to be a thing because it's just placating to the old people like me.
Speaker 1:Or is this like the death knell for actually what is the engine fuel for industry and commercial success? And I can't quite work out whether we're holding on to something that maybe isn't going to be so relevant or whether it's our duty. As a prep conversation we had and you I just loved your belief around actually the duty of of, yeah, as in the workplace now. So I'd love your thoughts on that, because I'm wrestling with that at the moment. Am I old-fashioned or are these classic terms of engagement for good business?
Speaker 2:you know what, when I used to go to school which let's just say was a while ago um, we used to have to stand up. If an adult or a teacher, whatever it was, came into the room, we had to stand up and stand behind our chair and, um, I at the time don't remember thinking anything of it because obviously that was a respect thing that we had to do and you know you wouldn't have questioned it. I think if we had to do those kind of things nowadays then yeah, that's. You know that's a stretch too far, that is archaic and it is too much.
Speaker 2:But I remember chatting once to a major general from the army and he said that there had been some conversation around whether it would be OK for people who were coming in to do their shift within Sanders to wear jeans on the way in, because they just put their uniform on when they get there and a big psychological study done. And the answer was no. They must come in in their uniform because they're prepped and ready and psychologically they're in the frame of mind to begin the second they get in there, otherwise you're still in social mode or in weekend mode, your brain is not in the same place and there's lots of study about the power of routine and the impact of structure. And I, you know, one of my big bugbears about university timetables is that they're so fragmented. You know you've gone from school nine till four. You know you're going to college similarly quite busy and then you go to university and depending on the course you're doing, you could be having eight to ten hours a week structured all over the shop across the week.
Speaker 2:And I think work gives us an opportunity to provide that structure back again and the routine and the reason to show up. And I think we all need to have a purpose to be able to thrive. And actually our purpose can be deeply linked to the structure of our and the rhythm of our week. And so I don't think it's old-fashioned and I think it would be a real missed rhythm of our life to take out those really nice little thoughtful pieces which actually just allow us to acknowledge somebody else. That's all we're doing is just saying, hey, I, I see you, I respect you, I'm here to talk. If you take that out, I don't know what replaces that. And we talk a lot about the generation behind us or coming through who don't have some of those etiquette. Things do help things move more smoothly. They are innately human and I think it's important for us to keep that fabric in our work and our life love that, by the way.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. So I now feel okay cool. I'm not yearning for some old-fashioned past. These are, these are the sort of the human foundations, I guess, of sort of relationship building. How much of it is? Is this linked to don't want to do these things or a confidence thing? So is it confidence, capability, willingness. So what's your read on it? Because then I think that then gives us, as you know, adults in the workplace and adults potentially child rearing as well, um, role modeling, that to the very sort of younger generation. So how much of this is linked to confidence?
Speaker 2:raising the very, very young generation. You know there's there's huge um research that proves that the benefit of being super present with your young person impacts their confidence as they're growing up. So if you are, as an adult, modeling, being on your phone all the time, being distracted, whatever that relationship is with your screen will be deeply imprinted on that young person and I think there's no denying that. Obviously the generation who are in their 18 to 24, they are the ones who have all grown up with a phone, with social media. The attention spans are small, the distraction, the doom scrolling, the reliance on this device and in fact during covid, which we've touched on, then you know, all of that got really hemmed in even tighter than it was before. So the social world that you have is just a relationship with a screen and it does impact confidence.
Speaker 2:Because if you haven't practiced, you know, even we know now, having done, you know, 20, 30 years in work, we know that we were not confident even sitting in a meeting at the beginning. We were worried about using our voice beyond. Hello, I'm Catherine. You know, using your voice in a meeting was a big thing. The first time you presented was a big thing, something you'd stay up all over the overnight panicking about you know, and then suddenly you're on a stage one day and you're talking. So it's all a journey in the sphere of a one-way, non-communicative relationship using your own voice, with your phone. Then you know, we don't even call people anymore. Everyone just texts and sends a WhatsApp, don't they? So we don't rehearse how to have a conversation very much, and so actually, if you are at home on your phone not really chatting to your friends on your phone to catch up with them and then you go into the office, I can imagine that that's a huge leap conversationally to be able to get into that space, and if you're one of three graduates that might have been taken on into a new company.
Speaker 2:It's not like there's loads and loads of you bumbling around that you can huddle together and practice as a group. It will be very much happenstance as to how much you get the opportunity to do that. I suspect there probably is a willingness to do it. I do really deeply feel that this generation still needs a lot of parenting, and I mean that in the kindest and most sort of mentor type capacity. I do feel they need us to show them. Let them do it. So it's very, very much mentoring and free reign, but but still demonstrate it and provide opportunity for them to try stuff and get it wrong, um, and that's really important, I think, to improve their confidence oh my god, thank you.
Speaker 1:I got a real goosebump when you were saying about that kind of parenting thing, because this pandemic, this AI revolution we're seeing, it's happened on our watch. Do you just sort of stand back and judge and sort of think, oh well, them lot don't get it, or are we compassionate and sort of look at what we can do to sort of rise, you know, rise everyone up together. I've got a couple of practical questions for you. You blew me away on our little pre-chat. Am I right in my notes? 64% of jobs cannot be filled in SME, smaller businesses.
Speaker 2:That's correct, yeah.
Speaker 1:Therefore, let's say, someone's listening and they're part of a small organisation. What would be? What are you seeing is helping attract the new generation into viewing an employer to be one of choice. So what could someone that maybe that doesn't have a huge brand name and the sway in that way what would be a couple of things that you've seen have then enabled that click moment of someone going right? There might not be a famous brand, but actually that looks like a really good role I want to apply there. So what would what could an sme do to become more attractive to the next generation smes have?
Speaker 2:got more jobs generally, that will suit early career talent. So the the desire is there, so smes and startups deeply want suit early career talent. So the desire is there. So SMEs and startups deeply want that early career talent. And it isn't just because they're sitting there with smaller budgets. It's often because the dynamism of those small to medium businesses lends itself to the fact that they're still a little bit into throw yourself in mode. They do want people to roll their sleeves up and maybe you're going to be doing a throw yourself in mode. They do want people to roll their sleeves up and maybe you're going to be doing a bit of project management, maybe you're going to be doing a little bit of events. You could be a little bit fluid in that role. And corporates are much more structured and much more hierarchical in a way, whereas SMEs are not. So it's a great opportunity for an early career graduate to join an SME because there's so much potential for them to have a variety of different skills that they can then, you know, take to another employer. But for SMEs to attract that talent and I really, really, really despise this because I don't like social media, but some of the brands that do really well, even in a small way.
Speaker 2:Um, on social media and when I say social media I mean linkedin. I do think this younger generation does understand that linkedin is important to getting a job. I also think that they think tiktok is important to getting a job. So there is a there is a real different approach to this, but it's those like your ambroise versus your broadsheet, very much. So, yeah, there's a serious page three situation going on in the TikTok camp, but I do think that it's the ones that aren't preaching, it's the ones that are giving really handy, useful life advice, who look like they're fun to be around, who look like they're happy to talk about the culture.
Speaker 2:You know, quite often when I'm speaking to grads, the last thing they're interested in is what happens in their job role. The number one thing they're interested in is benefits, which I find innately laughable. But I need to question myself on whether that's reasonable or not. But they want to or not. But they want to know benefits and they want to know about culture and to them benefits. I think if they've got the structure in the workplace which frees up the time for the benefits, then you wouldn't find so much fluidity between these two things.
Speaker 2:But, um, yeah, if, if brands can show off their personality, then I think that that's the. That's the key to sort of wading through this and show that off in your job efforts. Don't talk about, you know, 25 days holiday and we have a really exciting pension scheme. There's nothing exciting about a pension scheme, even to us, so it's definitely not going to excite a 21 year old. So talk about the things that make your office or your workspace great. All the sorts of things that make your office or your workspace great. All the sorts of things that they might really get to work on. That's quite exciting love it.
Speaker 1:The second stat that made me go no was am I right? Again in my notes there's a 30 000 to 1 job application ratio for vacancies in the big companies, correct? Yeah, 30 000 to one. Oh, my goodness. So that potentially is so that that's, that's that. Lots of people that are going to get disappointing thanks, but no thanks responses back. So I mean, that's, that's, that's a that's a cut and thrust environment there, isn't it? 30 000 to one.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also just ridiculous because, let's say, I'm the person receiving these 30,000 applications, how am I going to decide as an individual which one's the one that's going to get through the net? I will just go sift through the top ones and then just pick one, because I can't possibly search through 30,000 applications. So it is very much a lottery. And, yeah, that stat specifically came from one of the top consulting firms that I know a lot of graduates apply to and it's not unique. And even in some of the businesses who are not the top consulting firms which quite often grads go for, but some of the more medium but quite well-known brands, you're still seeing the applications in the thousands. And I think it's because, as a graduate, you've heard all these big names nobody at university is going to talk about you know Jeff's gym around the corner as a business to go and work for. They're going to talk about the big brand names you see on the telly. So all they've done is gone. They're the places I need to go and work and also they've placed a load of success. If it is that I'm not working for let's just say Google it's the end. I can't find a job. I'm going to have to carry on working where I'm working now, in my part-time role or whatever, and I think it's.
Speaker 2:You know, it's a real moment, isn't it?
Speaker 2:For a graduate to basically throw their hat in the ring and these applications, by the way, do not take five minutes, they're a good two to three hours to complete and then you think, oh, maybe I've got a chance.
Speaker 2:The reality is, the chance is so small and it will have absolutely nothing to do with whether you're good enough or not, so it can be a real, you know, thump in the chest for our graduates. And then also, they then sort of go well, where do I turn if they then turn to another one of those big brands and we go through this experience again, the, the ripple effects of that. If our confidence, we might assume, is starting at a fairly low point, that really is going to impact their ability to um, continue to seek work. And I think that you know we need to, at the university level, but also at the parental level, articulate the breadth of other opportunities that are out there and where to search for them, because no one's going to get more than 12 jobs fulfilled by those 12 big employers. So we may as well start elsewhere and get earlier as success oh, I love it.
Speaker 1:I don't know why, but the metaphor of it being like a catwalk was within my mind, and I remember a good friend of mine that she's a designer at a well-known um fashion brand and she said that the real hope coutures out there. So those huge, big, you know very famous designers designing, but you know they're incredibly expensive outfits they're actually only designing for eight women around the world. There are a handful of women around the world that can afford a 750 grand gown, but you design for those eight to 12. And then there's the trickle down effect, you know. So it's so that just sort of just it stuck with me about how it's not that you can't get on the catwalk, but it's recognizing for what it is.
Speaker 1:There there is, there is maybe a handful of opportunities, and I think that metaphor of it being like a lottery is a really good one, and I'm thinking if I had a 21 year old child who was in tears yet again having missed out on that or on getting something they'd worked really hard for. That's a really good context. A parent or a caregiver, which is that's all right. You know, you're not, you're not spoiled goods, it's just a laundry. So what else could you be doing in the meantime? That actually gets you onto that runway, maybe in a slightly different way. So I think that's that, that call to explaining the breadth of work out there and opportunities. And I love it when you speak to people and you find out their zigzag career stories and you know the amount of people I've spoken to who have really big jobs that are highly visible. When you find out what they were doing 20 years ago, there's not always a direct line up. There might be some random cul-de-sacs that people were in.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, same for me. Yeah, and I think that it's a. It is such an important point to go back to. Why is it that you are trying to get a job? Like you know, you've come out of university, you've got your degree in your hand. Why is it you're trying to get a job?
Speaker 2:And number one, probably at this very early stage in your career, is money. That's all. That's all they want, and obviously it has to be something they're interested in and you know all those kind of things. But the reality is, how can I access some funds? And then the funds give you the freedom to say, while I'm practicing in this pool, I'm going to take a look over there and I'm going to see what else might be out there. But it's absolutely fine that you're not the VP of partnerships at some major bank in job one. It's really, you know, that's not what you're aiming for. You're aiming for access to the next rung on the ladder. That's all you're aiming for. You're not aiming to be at the top of the ladder, just access to the second rung on the ladder. And I think if you break it down to that kind of level, you can't be as deeply disappointed as perhaps if you thought you were going for the whole ocean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's brilliant. So give us some takeaways what you're currently working on that people could find out a bit more about, and what would be some words of advice for employers out there and, I think, parents out there as well.
Speaker 2:There's two big things on the horizon for me a retreat in the autumn, a fab blend of strategy and resetting and focus and indulgence and just a bit of time for yourself, and so that's taking place in the cotswold in november with a beautiful, beautiful set of guest speakers. Um, separate to that we are. I also have a cic, a charity that I started earlier this year, which is supporting student mental health, and it's called Campus to Campus. So go and check out campus to campuscredituk to learn more about what we can genuinely do as an action to move this generation forward out of, you know, low confidence, loneliness and poor mental health. We're hosting a summit at the beginning of November, so my November is going to be bonkers, it's going to be busy, but that's what we're doing. But yeah, if you, you know, I do transformation programs for large corporates, so reach out if you're interested wonderful.
Speaker 1:It's just been such a great conversation, so wrap us up with a few kind of uh amuse bouche to just uh kind of give us something to to chew over. So what would be your um words of recommendation for employers out there to maximize this new generation of talent, and what would be some words of comfort or reassurance for parents, for who maybe this is, this is a very live topic on their radar so for corporates I would say you know, don't assume.
Speaker 2:The things that you know that make up the, the reality of how we do relationships in business are obvious to graduates.
Speaker 2:Make them spelt out so blindingly clearly that they can help themselves on this journey through everything from timing to etiquette to speaking up in meetings. I think that would really help retention and general happiness in the workplace. And I think, from a parental point of view and speaking as a parent myself, I think trying to understand genuinely that, all the important things that do make up your young person's life, and listening and leaning into those. We can't get rid of those things. We aren't going to remove social media and phones, but we can start to set some boundaries, we can start to be more present with them and we can start to really um, you know, begin open questions.
Speaker 2:I'm really interested about your event that you were doing at work. Tell me more or try and provide network or connections. You know it's remarkable to me to watch young people are so good at um wanting, even if they're not so strong in the relationship and the confidence skills they're so good at wanting to be entrepreneurial in their approach to life, so helping them to bring that out of their personality and support that I think is really important.
Speaker 1:I love it. Thank you so much, catherine Allen. It's been an absolute pleasure having a conversation with you, and we're sober how fab is that. I bet you're going to be quite dry until you've got November under your belt. So I'll meet up with you in December and we can have a big old chat about it. But thank you so much for your time. It's been a really, really a fantastic conversation and I wish you every success for your November. So we'll put in the details in the overview how to get in touch. Thank you so much. Look after in touch thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Look after yourself thank you so much. Oh, my god law, what an amazing conversation that you had. It was. It just blew my mind with the stats that she was coming out with. You know, I just was like what. I went back and listened to it and just went seriously, you know 64 percent of jobs cannot be filled in sme, smaller businesses.
Speaker 3:Wow, and what she was saying about those? Smes are good places to learn how to thrive in the world of work and you have lots of autonomy and you don't just have to go over after the big boys and girls in the organisations that are out there. And how many people apply for one potential graduate role.
Speaker 1:That was it, blew my mind Laura, yeah, yeah, it was massive, it really. I just absolutely just hung on every word as we were having that conversation and I think, as I mentioned as well, it was 1995 that I went to uni, During the war.
Speaker 3:During the war, and that's like 30 years on.
Speaker 1:My God, that's a different, the difference, the difference, sort of thing. And we were having our conversation in our team meeting about people that are in our radar of applying for graduate placement yeah, positions, yes, and there's just not the number out there that there might have been then before. So, no, that that opportunity to to learn that etiquette. So, um, yeah, I thought it was fascinating.
Speaker 3:I loved how she, um, she was sort of saying about you know how mentoring or mentors play such an important part in enabling people to buddy up in different organizations and and how they can learn off of other people and learn off each other. And I know we've worked with various organizations that do do that. But you know there are some that don't even think that's a good idea or wouldn't even put that on their radar. So I just I just found it incredible, um, and also the. It came back to what we were talking about last week, actually, laura, about you know, setting out clear boundaries and what's expected. Because you know, when she said that, you know the nebulousness, even that's a word of saying to you know somebody who's coming.
Speaker 3:You know, as a graduate, you know two or three days is fine, um, but they will see it as well. I'll do that's my two or three days, because I've done half a day here, half a day there, a whole day here. I've done my time, whereas, you know, if you like, we and I include us in that see, coming to work for a day, it is a day nine to five, not, oh, a couple of hours here or there. And that really made me think and go. Yeah, if we're not creating clear communication, to go a day means nine to five, not half an hour here, half an hour there, otherwise we're. Yeah, it's just chaos, isn't it, and people get frustrated because they haven't communicated effectively. Basically, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Yeah, oh, it's just brilliant. So thank you so much, catherine.
Speaker 1:And the contact details for Catherine are in the episode overview. So listen, here's my share of the secret, debs, and I'd love to end on your call to action. So if 64% of those jobs in small, medium enterprises are just still vacant and they're just not getting filled, then I think this would be a good listen for anyone who is in hr or the people team, some of those smaller, lesser known organizations where that would be an amazing role, absolutely. You know a graduate to then enjoy.
Speaker 3:So get, get to get, get, uh, get your mates who are in hr to listen to this and then I also think, though law just sorry on that I also think small business owners, um, who run their own small businesses, should also listen to this, because they're missing out, potentially, on a huge talent pool, and if they are smart and lift their heads up out of their business and look at it, I think this would be really and such a fascinating one for them to listen to and just to get them to think different yeah, good, catch Debs, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, love it. So what was your call? What was your call to action be?
Speaker 3:oh, I think my call to action would be be a mentor, that's it, just be a mentor, um give, give that time to somebody who's coming up in their first job as a graduate. Give them the time, the space to listen and be heard, um, and just be a great mentor for them so they can learn from you. But also, we know how important it is um that reverse mentoring as well, so you'll always learn something um from a young person that you never would have thought of before and and that keeps you young. I think that keeps your brain young. It doesn't keep. It stops you from being stale and one of those old fogies that sits and only does so much and reminds me of the lady with the post-its that told me we're not doing this exercise again.
Speaker 1:That that's still embedded in my head um so yeah, so I think, be a mentor yeah, nice. Oh, in fact, deb's, that's very interesting talk about reverse mentoring. So next week's um focus is going to be on giving effective feedback and what that then means to uh, to role model and deliver um uh feedback in a way that is palatable and inspirational and does what you need it to do. So I can't wait to roll up my sleeves and get into that. But you're mentioning about reverse mentoring, so, um, I'm off to seattle next week.
Speaker 1:Um, and actually, there's been a setting, so I know so there's been a specific requirement from the client big, big client that to purposely mix up the tables and to actively encourage reverse mentoring. So it's not just the people that have got 20, 30 years under their belt industry experience.
Speaker 1:It's then those people also listening to the people that have got one to two years experience. So that was specifically on what the client was really wanting. Was that reverse mentoring, and how, the quicker we're able to share that information and that insight around um fresh eyes as well as wise eyes, then, um you know, the smarter that team is. So, yeah, reverse mentoring. I think that would be a good thing, maybe to pick up when we look at um feedback on our next um episode. Yeah, oh, we'll have a fab week then you too, lovely, enjoy seattle.
Speaker 3:Love you, seattle, love you Bye.
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