Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast

256. Send the Elevator Back Down – Giving Apprentices Opportunity to Develop

• Season 20 • Episode 256

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In the final of our four-part mini-series on setting up next-gen talent, we explore what it really means to “send the elevator back down.” We unpack the mindset shift from “prove myself” to “create space for others,” and why apprenticeships aren’t just for 19-year-olds: career-changers and “old learners” are in the mix too. We share practical ways team leaders can balance stretch with nurture, invite newer voices into the room, and leave a legacy that you are proud of.

In this episode, we cover:

  • Stage, not age: Apprenticeships span first-jobbers to mid-career pivots—see the person before the label.
  • Coach first, manager second: How to scaffold learning without overwhelming; build in feedback loops that stick.
  • Share the mic: Spot moments to pass the spotlight and help apprentices land early wins.
  • EQ in action: Why generosity, humility and self-awareness turn experience into impact.

Listen if you are: onboarding apprentices, leading hybrid teams, or ready to swap solo heroics for collective lift.

Try this this week: In your next meeting, intentionally bring in one apprentice (or newer voice). Offer a clear entry point (“I know you’ve been exploring X,  would you share your take?”) and follow up with two questions: What worked? What would you do differently next time?

Speaker 1:

Coming up on this week's Secrets from a Coach. What's that phrase that we saw? Best leaders don't climb the ladder alone. They build a staircase for others.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh, mrs, see the person before the apprentice. Have that ability to balance, if you like, from that structure to challenge, you know, to that nurture piece. So see the person first. I love that, laura, because in theory you're to that nurture piece. So see the person first. I love that, laure, because in theory you're a bit of the expert, because you have been there, you have got the T-shirt, you've probably got the jogging bottoms as well and you're about to get the hat.

Speaker 1:

Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal Training. Debbs, laura, you all right? Yeah, I'm doing really well. How's your week been?

Speaker 2:

It's been really cool. So we cool, so lots of one-to-one this week. So it's been fascinating to see what some of the challenges are and what people are doing and listening to stories around this, you know. Next, new people in the world of work. What does that mean?

Speaker 1:

all of that lovely stuff so linked very nicely into what we have already been talking about yeah, well, this is the fourth in our four-part focus looking at setting up next generation of talent. So we've looked at from kitchen table to boardroom. What does it mean to put in these foundations for workplace success We've had the excellent Catherine Allen talking about. Actually, what does it mean then? High talent, potentially the etiquettes, and those workplace etiquettes is what needs to be really intentionally role modelled. Last episode, I just loved looking at giving effective feedback.

Speaker 2:

Giving and the numbers. I'm still reeling from that amount of young people coming into the world of work. That is, I'm not saying all of them will end up in the world, but you know what I mean. That is just mind blowing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 3.4 million people who are sort of in that sort of first job space. And what we wanted to have as a real kind of focus for this last one was what does it mean to send the elevator back down and to give apprentices a chance to develop? And we've decided not to focus specifically on age. And so tell us why. Because that story, story you shared, I thought, was a real eye-opener.

Speaker 2:

I was sort of surprised because I think the assumption is apprenticeships are for younger people, but they're not the more people. I'm speaking to one company in particular they've had the biggest intake of apprentices this year that are maybe second job as career transformation, coming in trying something different. So the age group, you know, is wider um, from your 19 year olds right up to your, you know, your 45 year olds actually. So it's as big as that um. And then also I was coaching somebody who is also doing their apprenticeship in leadership um, and they they're doing it from their place of work, um, where they're sort of already in leadership, and they're doing it from their place of work where they're sort of already in a job, but they're doing it as they had called themselves an old learner. No, you're an apprentice. So it crosses all age brackets really, and I think that's what we just need to be aware of.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I thought that was absolutely fascinating. And just to sort of remove from this, it's not necessarily just an age, but it's a stage or a phase of your career and this concept of sending the elevator back down. So here's how I understand it. There's a point in your career where you are hustling, hustling, hustling, trying to get a leg up, you're trying to kind of impress, you're finding out how everything works, to sort of whether you are ambitious to move up a ladder, you know, or to develop formally in your role, or just to thrive within your role and working out how to do stuff. So let's say, for example, you're sitting um a meeting, conversation, and in your mind the ego might be pointing towards myself. How do I portray myself? What's the impact I want to have and the influence I want to have? And then there's a point in one sort of career story where you think, hmm, I'm not the youngest person sitting around the table anymore. Actually, without realizing it, I still feel like I'm hustling and trying to sort of do all this stuff.

Speaker 1:

But actually, if there was like a series of levels within your career that represented, you know, stages, you're not at the first stage anymore, actually, without realizing I have this privilege or this position or this experience and actually sitting around that conversation table, should it be better to point my ego towards us? So actually I could say I've got some interesting thoughts here and and put my thought forward. But actually if I'm above halfway in my career, would it actually be a more noble thing to send the elevator back down and without stitching anyone up, but but to enable them to shine? Say, debs, you know, I know from your apprentice position you've had some interesting ideas and I pass you a convenient way to step into that conversation. And basically, is there a point in our careers where the ego needs to shift from you're not the new person anymore? At what point does the need to impress others? Does it actually become more impressive to create opportunities for people that are newer in, at a newer stage, lower levels down in that sort of experience, to have chances to shine?

Speaker 2:

oh, my god, I love that law because in theory, you're a bit of the expert because you've have been there, you have got the t-shirt, you've probably got the jogging bottoms as well. And you're a bit of the expert because you have been there, you have got the t-shirt, you've probably got the jogging bottoms as well and you're about to get the hat. So you're right. But that is fascinating because how many people do you see certainly when I observe team meetings sometimes, where there's still the ones wanting to be heard, wanting to put it in, and don't necessarily consider the audience or who's around that table or who they could welcome into the conversation? And that's just fascinating because I yeah, it's not all about you, because you have got tenure, you're there for a reason you are the expert. And if you can pass that knowledge on to somebody else, why would you not? But maybe that's just my naivety, because there's.

Speaker 1:

That's probably why we we would never be employed by anybody, because but there's too many going here's the rub right when you speak to senior leaders and when we have us on our team. We have huge privilege of having all of these kind of private conversations with people. Most of the decent senior leaders certainly I've interacted with still feel like they're making it up as they're going along, still feeling like they have to be politically savvy because maybe there's been a round of redundancies and actually they're as nervous about the future as maybe an apprentice sort of might be. At least an apprentice has got a 24 month plan yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2:

They're not going to get rid of that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, a senior leader on an SLT sitting on a table might not actually know that.

Speaker 1:

You know sort of what that sense of certainty is. So I think what's interesting is this isn't about bashing senior leaders or people that have got more than 20 years under their belt. It's whilst you're feeling like you are still in that hustle stage, actually, from someone who is newer in in, you look like you have got it all sorted and you've got all that experience. And, yes, I think it could be hugely humbling when people express I get nervous too for presentations. You know the relief that can bring to people when they know, oh, you get nervous too, yeah, but don't let it stop you. You know sort of push on through nerves is not a sign not to sort of do something but yeah. But then there's that sweet spot of not just holding on to all of those opportunities to shine yourself. And could it be that the most inspirational leaders are the ones that create opportunities for others? What's that phrase that we saw? Best leaders don't climb the ladder alone.

Speaker 2:

They build a staircase for others yeah, oh, missus, I do like that, get a tattoo of that debs, I'll get that one.

Speaker 2:

That's so cool but it's so important. I think you know, when we think about if we're gonna striking that balance, as I suppose, from that ability to invest and and challenge in the right way and nurture it's quite tricky to to be able to create that space, um, to give apprentices that time to learn and grow um, set them up well, how do they, you know, how do you do that? You know, show them that they do matter to you, um, and also stretch them appropriately, not on the stretcher, but giving them that opportunity, recognizing, like, make sure they're having small wins throughout it. And, as you said, I love the fact, you know, acknowledging that that new person is that apprentice is sitting around the table and they will have different ideas. So the fact that your, I suppose, awareness to invite them into the conversation, for them, that impact could be massive and they will look at you as that inspirational leader that was was there to help them grow and learn and develop and was being nurtured in the right way, but was also, you know, providing safety as well as encouragement so that individual can learn and grow um, and I think otherwise you can run the risk of that apprentice being underused or just being given the crap jobs or not being invested in. So they disengage because you know you're not challenging them without nurture as well, a bit like we was talking about last time on feedback. Giving them too much to do risk of overwhelm and anxiety because they're knocking their confidence because you're just not giving them that nurture space to go. It's okay.

Speaker 2:

As you said, I felt as nervous during my first presentation. I hear you, I understand you. I've been where you've been. Let's work out how we can do it together. Because you've been there, you are the expert that person's going to look up to you, so why not give them something back? Am I just being naive? Am I just hoping everyone's nice?

Speaker 1:

I don't know if there's a point in your career where you think, right, I am now the expert and I now consider myself in the upper echelons of all my experience. In fact, they're the people you don't want to hang around with because they're sort of really closed-minded.

Speaker 1:

So there is this kind of catch-22 yeah, that's true on the one hand, as you navigate your way further and further in your career, is having that growth mindset, that curiosity stuff that I know you're so passionate about, and also recognizing that the longer you've been in the world of work or or involved in it, the more experience you have accrued. And actually there's some things, there's some hard won skills and hard won wisdoms and and you know phrases that you know you can, you can pass on that actually can really make a difference. And I think where I was sort of planning this, prepping this, it isn't sort of necessary, just formal mentoring and formal coaching moments and one-to-ones. It's those little opportunities in that moment of I could take a bit of glory for me. Or do I at this point send the elevator back down to someone else around the table with whom I know is going to be OK, to be able to have the little bit of spotlight and given others a chance to shine?

Speaker 2:

I think you're right. I suppose does that take a level of comfort within yourself that you're big enough and ugly enough to recognize that you have earned that wisdom. You've learned it yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And what is?

Speaker 1:

it that enables people to do that? Is it humility? They are generous, yes. So I think they are generous characters as in, willing to share some of that kudos then with others. And I know you're the same as well. I've had conversations with leaders where they probably should have been a bit savvier or a bit tougher or a bit grabby with experiences, because actually maybe the shareholders or the CEO execs or haven't necessarily seen it, but they're still proud of how they acted. You know, rather than sort of bagging all this stuff, I think they're really strategic around the legacy. So maybe there's at some point in someone's life where they think, actually, what is it I want to leave behind as a legacy for this role that I'm then in, and then those practical moments where there's sort of opportunity to do that. So I think it's it's, yeah, generous, really thinking of the big picture, about the legacy they want to leave and um and then creating opportunities for that.

Speaker 1:

But I think that's I think that's a fascinating question, debs are leaders born that way or are they made that way, you know? Is it just chance? Is it just luck, if you happen to have a leader who is willing and has the capacity to have that sense of confidence that I don't always need to look like the best one here. Actually, the best leader I can be is to enable my team to shine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think we have seen those leaders that have just done that. And you think, what is it about them? And I love how you, you know, generosity is great, and I wonder how much of that is linked to their levels of emotional intelligence as well, because we know, right, old Daniel Goleman talks about you know, 80% of your success will be based on your levels of emotional intelligence rather than your IQ. And you just think, yeah, how self-aware, how intelligent emotionally are they? How much work have they done on themselves? How have they received feedback? Going back to what we were talking about last week about the impact they had on somebody, because they reacted in the wrong way. So I wonder how much of that is because they've learned along the way themselves and they just want to pass that on.

Speaker 1:

Well, thinking back to insights, right, and you know I just love the wealth of experience and knowledge you've accrued over the years around the insights discovery psychometric tool.

Speaker 1:

So whether you are into insights or whether it's disk profile or anything that's based on the sort of Jungian sort of times sites, or whether it's disc profile or anything that's based on the sort of union sort of times, I always remember you saying on one of the sessions we were running with leaders, about how there's a point at which the people energy needs to dial up when you become a leader, because it's not just all about you and actually a leader is all about the team.

Speaker 1:

And there's that point where there's that shift from it can't all be about you, otherwise you know there's potentially a thousand people who are within your you know direct line or indirect line who potentially are going to get smothered rather than kind of sort of flourish. So I just always remember that mic drop moment of where there's actually and you know the links to the union types and that kind of stuff there's a point where almost there's that wake-up moment of oh this can't just all be me being charismatic and forthright and always there out of the front. Actually there's also the other half which is checking behind me. Is everyone all right?

Speaker 2:

Is everyone with me?

Speaker 1:

Because the definition of a leader is you've got a follower, so it's the followership that is actually the skill set.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a good catch actually, laure. And I suppose how do we do that with apprentices coming into the world of work in a way that enables them to thrive and to learn and to develop or changing career or having something else, I think, acknowledging their prior experience. You know, just because they have got the title apprentice, they would have had other experience. So you know, asking them, what strengths and experience could you bring into this role? So, a bit, like you know the transferable skills we always talk about, you know we can take them anywhere and it's not about taking them back to square one, it's about progression route, as you said. It's about them progressing on the next stage of their journey. So, again, reassuring them that, um, it's not, they're not starting from scratch because they're not, um, it's just about how do they formalize new skills. So, again, the language we would use around it, I think for those that are coming into it from another role or retraining or whatever I think can have a massive impact on that person not feeling part of it.

Speaker 2:

Because you know I mean credit where credit's due for people going into second careers or wanting to retrain, as something that must be quite daunting to walk into a room, certainly with the person I was talking to.

Speaker 2:

They're what are they? Mid-30s, early, yeah, mid-30s, late 30s, and they're actually going into a university to do their apprenticeship and study. And they said they pitched up on day one and they felt like they were the oldest person in the room because you think, well, that's no age. But it was really interesting to see that. Actually I was really nervous to turn up in a room where it's actually they're really senior leader, lots of confidence, but to put them back into that stage of, if you're like learning from scratch, um, they were nervous about showing up. So you know, that was interesting because I'm going to watch to see how that relationship dynamic and um, because they're very astute and they would say, yeah, but I'm going to learn from them what I need to know to be able to manage my team when I go back, because there's lots of young people in my team but then I can also impart some of my knowledge for those that never worked before.

Speaker 1:

So I love the way that he approached that because it was that nurture um and learning, learning mindset so what were some practical things that that could be some snippets so from this client how many did you? How many um apprentices do they?

Speaker 2:

have as an intake.

Speaker 1:

So they have 198.

Speaker 2:

Last year they had, I think, 200. So roughly 200 apprentices come into their place of work every single year. Wow.

Speaker 1:

And what are some practical things that you know, having sort of heard that storyline for at least a couple of years now. What are some practical takeaways that could be opportunities to send the elevator back down?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think explicit guidance can help avoid misunderstanding.

Speaker 2:

So, you know, don't assume they know the basics, because they may not, I think also overloading them too early with stuff. You want them to learn, you want them to thrive, and they're probably really open, but certainly within this industry, what they're doing is they've got a very good plan as to how and they're managing that with people that are quick learners, those that need more reflection. So all the way along they are, if you like, having conversations as to what's working, what's not, making sure feedback is in place, regular feedback loops, and also making sure that that apprentice feels included and supported throughout, because obviously it's a big investment for an organization to bring on 200 odd people and if they're not protecting them in that right way, where they can have time to learn, which they do, and scheduling learning, and not just in the first couple of months but throughout the, you know, the tenure of their apprenticeship is keeping that consistency going. So, yeah, I think they can do a lot. I think coach first, as I would say, and then manager second.

Speaker 1:

I love that language reframe coach first, manager second, because actually even when you think of the word manage, manage almost sounds like dealing with a contained product that you've got now and managing that that's okay. So it doesn't sort of step outside the lines and you're almost kind of managing and containing it and actually that's maybe not the ideal for someone that is in that learner kind of mode. So coach first manage next because you haven't got the full finished article. Well, mind you, we never the full finished article we're ever finished.

Speaker 2:

Are we're ever finished?

Speaker 1:

are we.

Speaker 1:

And then that links full circle to the topic that we've got Even if you don't feel like the finished article, because you're a growth ready, open mindset mid 50s, late 50s, early 60s it's nothing really to do with age more years behind you in your career than you have ahead then, like it or not, you potentially are sitting on a privilege of experience that, without realising it, might not feel like it's any easier, but you're already halfway up or towards the top of that kind of career set of experiences and just sort of de delinking.

Speaker 1:

This isn't about promotion and sort of going up through the sort of the ranks, it's. It's. It's going through those experiences. And yes, if they, if you've got 10 000 meetings under your belt, you'll take it far less personally if someone doesn't say thank you for your presentation. Yeah, if you've got one meeting under your belt and no one says thank you, you're going to take it far more personally because it's a hundred percent of your experience. But the more meetings you got under your belt, the more you just realize, oh well oh well, can't please them all the time.

Speaker 2:

I think that comes back to that recognizing that actually I'm going to send that elevator back down and I'm going to give that person opportunity to, if you like, be proactive, rethink it. Not just turn up at the meeting and hopefully it works is to maybe take that extra little bit of time and check in with them and go. I know you're at the meeting about blurb. Um, you know what's your thoughts around that. You know what, what? Maybe research. Have you done so, again, setting them up for success? So not just leaving them to find out that, oh, I shouldn't have presented that. I don't know when I should present it's. It's guiding them through that.

Speaker 2:

It's like riding a bike isn't learning to drive your car for the first time. You don't know what you don't know and I know that's your one of your greatest models but you don't know what you don't know. So why would you not step in and nurture that individual and help them so that you create that structured approach to their learning? But you've also given them an opportunity to not just be chucked in at the deep end, but they know you're there to support them and nurture them and walk alongside them and I think, checking in afterwards, how did you find it? You're not trying to get the dirt on it. You'll just genuinely care that that person has a good experience or learns from their experience, rather than go oh, it'd be better next time. Don't be dismissive. I think you have a conversation.

Speaker 1:

I love the fact that right from the start, you were sort of almost shifted the perception of an apprentice.

Speaker 1:

So you know, when I think of an apprentice, I've got a brand new rucksack and a pencil case and I've been shown the bus route and you know the perception of what someone might have as an apprentice.

Speaker 1:

But actually, if there's someone sitting there who's got, you know, a fully fledged family that they're supporting back at home, yeah, who has, uh, you know, has, as as a whole, had a whole life sort of of work already, the perceptions in this ever-evolving world of work, and I think that's, you know, what was key we were so excited about this four-part mini series yeah is what might have been when we were between the ages of 17 and 21, what might have been appropriate in terms of how giving feedback, what an apprentice meant and what it meant to be the new person, what it means to then have those foundation skills and actually to have huge, amazing levels of education is sort of one part of that recipe for sort of effective work, and I think that's why we were so excited about this focus in September is actually, what does it mean to then set up the next generation of workplace talent and what's our role that we all have with all of that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. I think that leads into my call to action law See the person before the apprentice. Have that ability to balance, if you like, from that structure, to challenge, you know, to that nurture piece.

Speaker 1:

So see the person first and actually I bet that must be a massive buzz having the chance to mentor and develop fresh blood into the world of work.

Speaker 2:

I I mean what a buzz to know.

Speaker 1:

I would hope so You've made that impact on a whole new generation. So I think there's been mindful of your power as well with that. I think so.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a good catch as well, laura, because yeah, why would you not? I mean, I know we always say you know that next generation are going to pay our pensions, you know, and if we're not looking after them, then what does happen further down the line? So I just think, if you're a decent human being, why would you not give your time back? Somebody gave you their time when you first started, so you know. Why would you not give it back? You know, and just look at it from a different perspective. Come at it from. My purpose in this world is to pass my knowledge on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you know what they say. All your previous line managers are either a lesson or a warning. That's true, and you can decide whether you're going to be in the tell me about the best boss you've ever had or tell me about the worst boss you've ever had when that person is in their mid-stage at some leadership workshop talking about leadership skills.

Speaker 2:

I love that. What would be your share? The secret, though.

Speaker 1:

Laura. So my share the secret would be okay. If you know that and there's a friend of yours or a colleague of yours who is going to be having an intake of fresh young blood into their organisation, get them to listen to this. I think your link around investment versus challenge, versus nurture and those specific questions you had, I think, is gold dust and not just about dumping someone into a shock situation where it's fight or flight, but setting them up for success. I think that was some really practical, brilliant stuff there.

Speaker 2:

Because we spend so much time at work, Laura? Oh, we do, Debs.

Speaker 1:

Especially in this hybrid work. You know, you literally might be spending more time in your bedroom with a colleague online than you might be with a real life human. You know, and that's the reality of hybrid work, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So why not make?

Speaker 1:

it work, absolutely. Work has never been quite so personal, you know, and it's impacting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1:

All sort of areas of our life. So here we are at the end of our current can't believe we're at the end of it I've loved this series law it's it's.

Speaker 2:

Um, I suppose being able to do the research on it as well has made me think as well. And that's what we always love. You know, we, you know, we always learn and we go. Oh, my god, like that stat that you shared on the last one, that's still that three and a half million people, between what was it?

Speaker 1:

17 and 21 yeah, potential coming into that world of work is still mind-blowing who were coming of age through the pandemic through, yeah, which is they were 12 to 16 through the pandemic. Now that is an unheard shared experience that we've all had and I think it's going to be fascinating. You know, you and I have both always been interested in 2030. Yes, because it's the end. We're in the midway point here and it's going to be really fascinating to see how all of those things start to play out.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, very exciting I've loved it, me too.

Speaker 1:

But, debs, you know, despite what the news might tell us, I still do have infinite hope for, on the whole, the majority of people who are in the world of work just want the easiest day possible, delivering the best service or experience that they can. You know, on the whole, and hopefully On the whole.

Speaker 2:

On the whole. On the whole, I would say you don't have to love someone or take them home with you, but you do have to learn to work with people. Don't have to love someone or take them home with you, but you do have to learn to work with people. So, because ultimately we, we are in work a lot longer and longer than we're ever going to be if they push the pension age out, um, so why would you not want it to be a great experience?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, yeah, spot on, devs, um, spot on. So I am super excited about our next mini series. What are we doing? We think it's going to be all about culture. What makes a great workplace? Culture? Which we thought was quite interestingly time because there's lots of awards and all those types of things that are in this sort of award point of year. So, uh, yeah, they'll be interesting. Look at what some of the research says and then bringing it in with some guests and also some real life experiences. So Debs have a wonderful week.

Speaker 1:

You too, laura. Enjoy, yes, enjoy pressing those buttons on the elevator.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, come on people, let's go down together, alarm, alarm.

Speaker 1:

There's a weird woman in the lift that keeps telling me what to do with my life.

Speaker 2:

Well, she's asked me so many questions. Oh God, Can you just be quiet?

Speaker 1:

Well, have a good one, oh, you too.

Speaker 2:

I'll see you for our next.

Speaker 1:

I'll see you next week. Yay, love you. Love you Bye. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoachcom, or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating, as it's easier for people to find us, and if you want to know more, visit our website, wwwsecretsfromacoachcom, and sign up for our newsletter here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work.