Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast

258. What Causes Great Workplaces to Turn Toxic?

• Season 21 • Episode 258

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In this second episode of our 5-part focus exploring Thriving Workplace Cultures, we take a look at the dark side of working in an organisation-  what do to when things turn bad. Trust and fairness are key foundations - the give and the get

Notice, Choose and Act

you are not alone, an organisation is bigger than the individual so keep your boundary lines clear in your head in terms of appropriate levels of accountability and responsibility 


We share our new PEACE approach for calmer, more productive conversations and interactions: Purpose, Explain, Accept, Collaborate and Engage:

Purpose - keep eyes on the future win from the interaction  - the why

Explain - your thinking so people see your reasoning - the context

Accept - that it is ok for others to hold different, passionate views - we are not AI

Collaborate - drop the ego to compete and work sideways on  - teamwork

Engage - keep the dialogue open and respect through listening - rapport



SPEAKER_08:

Coming up on this week's Secrets from a Coach.

SPEAKER_05:

One of the outputs of a toxic culture is people leave. But some people don't, can't, won't, don't have the courage to leave. So, you know, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_08:

Behind every senior leader, you know, a well-meaning one probably wants to get out there and be visible and maybe went for that role in the senior leadership because they wanted to make a difference. And then lo and behold, you get snarled up trying to swim through the seaweed of admin, responsibility, all these different stakeholders, all these meetings you're at now. Secrets from a coach. Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson Stavely of Phenomenal Training. Debs.

SPEAKER_05:

Law, you alright?

SPEAKER_08:

Yeah, I'm doing really well. How's your uh how's your week been?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, it's been not too bad actually. It's been busy and trying to um get back into the swing of things, but lots of conversations going on with people that has been fascinating.

SPEAKER_08:

Now I can hear in your little voice you've been having lots of conversations. You've got all your little debtors got a cold voice.

SPEAKER_05:

I have got a cold voice, and I've got me I've got my orange juice here. So thank you, orange juice. Vitamin C works wonders.

SPEAKER_08:

Very good. Dr. Dr. Green there coming in your ears. Um now, Debs, part of the fascinating conversations we've been having is we are very privileged in the roles that us and the teams have because we get to sniff behind the scenes of all these really well-known, incredible workplaces. And whether it's in the coaching room or whether it's in a group workshop that's been facilitated, we kind of get to sort of have a sniff around, an eavesdrop on kind of the state of sort of workplace cultures, like the reality behind all of the uh the websites and all of the lovely marketing and stuff. And uh we've been having some quite eye-opening conversations recently. And one of the ones that I think has really sort of stuck with us is the genuine surprise I think both of us felt when we were talking to those people that work in a frontline public transport environment and just the level of antisocial behaviour that they say they've seen rise over the last four or five years, and how if you were in a front-facing role, um, that actually it's become quite a difficult environment with people behaving in really antisocial ways. So it really got us thinking about from a culture perspective, what is it whether you are public-facing or whether you're internal colleague-facing, what are some of the things that are maybe worthwhile looking out for if there has been a kind of a decline in what you would describe as that workplace culture? So, what's what's been your sort of thinking and reflections on that, Debs?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. And you're right, when you see signposts in like coffee shops or you know, in the supermarkets, and and as you said, where we were, we will not tolerate antisocial behaviour towards us. It's quite sad in a way that people have to put a sign up about just generally respect your fellow human, um, which is always quite scary, really, when you think, are people really that horrendous to others? And yes, they are by this, we know by the stories we're hearing. And it's something you know, we're just like, whoa, what's going on at this moment in time? I think the one thing I have sort of been reflecting on as you were just literally talking there, my mind's going, yeah, well, what I noticed was the camaraderie from those teams internally who work super close with each other. I'm not saying three levels up, but those that are in it with in the, you know, down in the trenches, so to speak, the care and support they have for each other, I think that's what has stood out for me following the conversations that we've been having. They're very together on it and protective of each other, which until you started saying that, I hadn't even really thought about what was the difference, what did I see? And it was that, you know, yes, the rise has gone up, but you find that they're coming together and supporting each other more.

SPEAKER_08:

Debs, you know, you've just created a little light bulb moment in myself as well, actually, about some of the team workshops that I've been in the last couple of months is where as the external consumer market or the commercial or the trading conditions have become rougher and tougher, actually, those teams where there is that camaraderie, you're right. There's almost like a right, well, we're in it together.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08:

The world out there is pretty difficult and dangerous. So, but actually, we're safe together as a team. And often it's those coming together moments, and when you work in close proximity that gets that sort of camaraderie. So, I mean, I guess that's why you have a workplace culture, because it it keeps you safe because no one individual can be held responsible for a whole retail chain or a whole railway network or you know, an airport. You're protected by the fact that you're part of a culture. And so I guess when you've got a culture that is camaraderie, that has got kindness, that has got is focused on getting the results in, but also one eye on checking each other's welfare as well. I guess that's where you have a culture that could be described as thriving.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_08:

Now, what percentage of workplaces do you think are displaying those behaviours at the moment, Deb?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, without having done a bit of research and gone and asked, um the the themes that are coming through is that's not always present, especially if one of the reasons, you know, um I suppose cultures can turn toxic, in other words, is the consistent, unmanaged pressure and consistency of change and the fatigue that comes with it. Around the multi, I don't know, how many times are they going to restructure? It drains people's resilience. So I think there is an element of leaders and the leadership coming into that to think about what blind spots have they got to that just because they're four up or wherever they might be deciding that you know the investors want us to restructure and save money, cost cutting, la. I hear it. But actually, how much are they really thinking about it on the impacts on the bottom line? And I think that can then create a little bit of, I suppose, well, it's it isn't them and us because they don't understand what we're being put through. Yet they're asking us to cut costs, yet we're we're now laying it up with antisocial behaviour in a frontline role. I'm not one of the ones I heard was I'm not paid enough to do that. So, you know, my local shop was, I don't know how many times it's been, you know, people have robbed it. They the staff will just say it's not worth it. I'm just gonna let it happen. And I think I think one again, oh my goodness, what have we come to? But then where is the leadership in providing that psychological safety for those people to come to work and feel safe and not feel that actually what's the point? The culture is toxic anyway, leaders don't know what they're doing, they're quite dysfunctional anyway. So it it just has to start somewhere. But I think as you know, we sort of talked about just before, cultures don't usually in inverted commas decide to turn toxic. Um, I think it's built up over a period of time when there's a mix of different conditions that go, if you like, unchecked or just get missed, or they get pushed away because it's too difficult, it's in the too difficult box to deal with, you know, like constant restructuring because there's a reason they have to, or leadership blind spots because they're too far removed from what's going on, values, as you said, pinned up on a wall. Um, but are they being lived up to? Because they do look glossy and they do look amazing. But if they're not being practiced in the behaviors, and I know we talked about that on our last episode, Law, then what's the point? And so therefore, I think that's what brings people that group back together to go, well, no one else is lived to me, but you are. So I'm gonna connect with you because you're you're in the same space I am. I'm you're I'm not alone in this, you're with me. And I just think it's it's just fascinating some of the things that can lead to that, and we have an awareness of those is gonna be paramount in order to unpick them, which I know is what we're gonna be talking about on our other episodes is how can we navigate our way through this? I think it's crazy time at the moment, yeah.

SPEAKER_08:

And of course, as every child has probably felt resentment against their parent for being there to prevent you having fun and prevent you doing what you're doing. And I remember clearly, you know, probably shouting at my mum when I was younger, sort of saying, When I have a child, I'm gonna let them just have strawberries, like and this ridiculous stuff. And then, of course, if you do then have that lived experience, you then think, oh my goodness, you know, you just see it from such a different lens. The amount of frontline teams I hear talking about, we never see our senior leaders, they're not visible. When they do turn up, they're accompanied by a photo crew to sort of prove the fact that they were here, and this is in all sorts of different organizations, um, and yet you then got the senior leaders saying, we need people to be more proactive, we need them to collaborate. Um, but until you've been in that role, you can't empathize with the pressure profile because behind every senior leader, you know, a well-meaning one probably wants to get out there and be visible and maybe went for that role in senior leadership because they wanted to make a difference. And then lo and behold, you get snarled up trying to swim through the seaweed of admin, responsibility, all these different stakeholders, all these meetings you're at now. So it's, you know, I think everyone wants the the same thing: a healthy, happy, thriving, financially healthy workplace, or whatever your kind of your end commercial goal is, you know, happy patients or you know, happy and well-balanced students. But the reality is if there's too much stuff kind of that's sort of preventing each way in an organization to work together, then fingerpringers start pointing and everyone starts blaming each other for not doing the job properly.

SPEAKER_05:

And that's not a great place to be, is it, when you hear, you know, the stories, and then I suppose it goes to that far where you then have the you know the clicks forming. And I think if we if we refer back to, you know, we talked about being in the playground on our last series, is that the mentality that we want to role model, create? Um, I would say no, but it's really difficult to come out of that stuff because we can get caught up with it really quickly. Um, and therefore, you know, the sometimes the behaviours we see aren't necessarily the ones that we would want to see, but how often do we uh call them or you know, call them out, or things like that. So I think communication has a huge part to play in in this whole toxic culture potentially being created.

SPEAKER_08:

Let's dig a little bit deeper into that because I think that's going to be fascinating. So, Debs, we've seen that whether it is the internal culture of an organization mirroring the external toxic behaviours that the general public might be displaying, for example, or social media stuff that's happening, um, or whether it is just there's been this slow and steady decline. What's your thoughts on the types of behaviours that, if left unchecked, can maybe not intentionally turn a culture toxic?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, that's such a good question. Um, I suppose microaggressions is a big one. So just, you know, saying something or something off the cuff, or that lovely banter word that actually I hadn't heard of for a little while, but um, so maybe that's gone out of the vocabulary of work, maybe. Um little cliques, as we mentioned, disrespect of others, those side comments that happen, or that if you're in a meeting room and you turn up late for whatever reason, there's a comment that's been made for you know towards you, um, which goes unchecked. You know, that they're sort of the types of things that we need to sometimes call out or be transparent or set up the environment well enough so that people feel safe. Um, because there's a lot of work around psychological safety, right? That's out there and um making people feel safe to come to work and be their best self rather than being punished, I suppose, for speaking up or making mistakes or challenging the status quo sometimes.

SPEAKER_08:

Debs, you know what you just reminded me of? I remember speaking with someone and I genuinely can't remember who it was. So don't worry, I'm not gonna out anyone if you listen, thinking, oh God, they just blow out all our secrets. Um I genuinely can't remember who it was, but I remember them saying how they had they had a boss that um kept banging on about psychological safety, yeah, and um, but would insist on running every meeting with what are the reasons why you don't feel psychologically safe, and then would go, come on, you haven't given your answer yet, and would like, put people on the spot. So those thinking the irony of that, you know. I mean, that's that's just you're running, you keep talking about the theory of psychological safety, and you know, all your team are absolutely dreading coming on the Monday morning catch-up meeting and trying to get out of it and claiming that they got they're sick because they'd rather be sick than a turn attend a minute. So that's crazy. So there's that lack of awareness sometimes about how I think I'm being the all-singing dancing perfect colleague, but actually, behind the scenes, I'm leaving a wake of people that are maybe not well impacted by my behaviours.

SPEAKER_05:

The way that people communicate can get perceived differently depending on your values and your upbringing. And um, as I was sitting down trying to just to be quiet and not use my voice, I turned on married at first sight. I love a reality program. Yes. And um, there's the two couple there that um I think it's Grace and Ashley. I will call them out because I love them anyway. But just because of their different styles or different interpretation of language and intent, you can feel the toxicity coming into it if they're um not going to do anything about it. And I think as they said, I think it was yesterday's or whatever one it was, um, they said our biggest barrier is that we're not we need to communicate more about what that impact is. And I'm thinking, yeah, you do, um, because it was really getting toxic. Um, and they can't get out of the experiment. But they did say had they been on the outside world, they would have left, they wouldn't have had a second or third date. But then that reminded me of internally, then, if you're in a toxic environment internally, you may not be able to get out and exit that business because of the environment or the culture that's being created. So, how do how do you even start to begin to navigate that in a healthy way?

SPEAKER_08:

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I guess one of the one of the key things is is is it's not about you. Like you're you're sometimes groups of people act in a way that is you you what you say might matter, but it's not everything. You know, the group is bigger than than the individual in in when you're in that particular environment. And I guess that little magic thing of notice, choose, and act. So to be able to notice, ooh, this isn't great, to then um, you know, have in your ears actually sometimes things are not all right. And it's okay in my mind to think, I'm not enjoying this team environment, or I'm not enjoying this new um vibe that a new leadership team is bringing in, or where there's been a merger and and a team that you work side by side with, do things in a really underhand way, and yet your team has always prided itself on integrity. You know, it's yeah, if you're starting to spot some things, and what's our colleague Lynn's always says, Yes, your tummy feels it first sometimes.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, the ick, isn't it?

SPEAKER_08:

The ick as she calls it.

SPEAKER_04:

And if you're saying she does call it that.

SPEAKER_08:

Yeah, if you're finding yourself sort of chatting with, you know, um uh housemates or partner or you know, friends or whatever, just saying, Oh, things aren't feeling great at the moment at work. Um, I I I think you know, how how do you keep yourself safe in that moment? Because everyone might be so caught up in their own drama that they're not actually listening to the impacts they're having.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and I think one of the outputs of a toxic culture is people leave. Um but some people don't, can't, won't know, don't have the courage to leave. So, you know, it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_08:

But the other again, I'll just join up some dots as we're sort of chatting this through. One of the things that brings some of these organizations that I know in both of our minds that connects them is there's either a reality or a perception of limited resource. Yes. If you are working in an organization that happens to be absolutely creaming it in at the moment and everyone's buying your stuff and everyone thinks you're fantastic, actually, you know, the the till of an organisation is like WD40, it's a lot easier to rub along colleagues you don't really like when you're getting free beer on Thursdays, you've got a cafe just for ice cream around the corner, you know.

SPEAKER_05:

Finish work at 1.30 on the flight.

SPEAKER_08:

It's a lot easier to put up with, you know, difficult moments when actually everyone's feeling quite nicely pampered because there's a nice cushion of profitability or success. I think where this stuff really comes out is what can what can bring out toxic behaviours is when it feels rough and tough and everyone is fearful about their jobs or fearful about the what pressure that might be building up. When the resource seems to under uh not not meet the demand, that's where I think some of this stuff can come out.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, that's such a good point, Law. Because I think that then is a bit of um, I suppose it starts to erode the trust and fairness that people expect in the workplace. Um, because if somebody feels they're, you know, they're overworked, because there's been so many changes. Oh, well, I know that person's not here anymore, so you're you're getting that as part of your job. You know, how long does it take for you to go? I cannot cope with this anymore. Um, I'll do my call to action now because it fits nicely with that. Talk to people about what's going on for you, not collude on it, but just talk to randoms outside. But knowing that you've got a support network around you, I think that is the most valuable thing. Because if you're in that environment which is feeling not nice, then you can it can impact on your self-belief and your confidence, and it can knock you back and you forget how great you are. And then, you know, just because this one hasn't quite worked, doesn't mean the next one will be the same, because you're still that same person who brings the same qualities and uniqueness into any role that you choose to go to next. But yeah, it's it's a that trust and fairness, once that starts to be eroded. I think you're on a slippery slope. And yeah, I mean, what should what should leaders do? What can people do?

SPEAKER_08:

Um, and actually that trust and fairness, I've done some thinking about rat debt so bear with me. I've got an idea to run past you. Um, and actually that trust and fairness, I've been heard it described as the give and the get. So this is the yeah, the the give and the get. And and doesn't feel like it's kind of you know in sort of balance. Um, otherwise you start stealing from the station recover, don't you?

SPEAKER_05:

Did you follow me round when I was no one values me?

SPEAKER_08:

I was gonna help myself to these brightly coloured neon postings just to get a sense of yeah, of balance, equitable. I hate my boss.

SPEAKER_05:

Let's not encourage that, yes.

SPEAKER_08:

I hate my boss, but I love these merch, these pens in bright pink. Um, so yes, I've done some thinking now, because we're sort of, you know, all on YouTube now, which is why we have to Oh yes, we are. So we have to do our hair each time now. Anyway, so although we've we've always videoed it, we're kind of uh, you know, we're we're um doing our bit on YouTube. So it'd be brilliant to get your um thoughts on this if you think it's any good or not. So in answer to what do we do about it? So the focus we've had on this episode has been about what causes great workplaces to turn toxic. And I guess, yes, if it's so bad, you might be kind of preparing to exit. Um, but if you're thinking, no, I think I can think I can still bring it back. So this isn't rescuing and losing yourself in and all of it, but maybe preventing toxic moments becoming permanent, so sort of catching it quickly before it sort of catches hold, which is the same for any relationship, really, isn't it? I mean, it's yeah, it I imagine relationship counselling is based on giving each other feedback before things rot, you know, and and and you just can't sort of stand aside of each other anymore. Um, but the uh that's a whole nother episode. A whole nother episode. Um, so uh yeah, so we've got this thought around how if there's lots of drama, like what would you not want the contestants on Married at First Sight to do? What you probably want wouldn't want them to do in the first 24 episodes is to bring peace to any interaction.

SPEAKER_05:

Very true.

SPEAKER_08:

Which probably means in parallel, that's what we actually want in our real lives rather than reality TV, is if actually you're thinking, I can see some toxic moments, I don't I want to catch it before it sort of lands and settles. And then this is our sort of look at well, how can you bring a bit of peace to your approach? And where peace stands for purpose, explain, accept, collaborate, engage. So let's say you've got an interaction coming up, and you think, oh dear God, like the last one was just icky, and like there was two days of chat after that one hour meeting on Monday because it created so much kind of tension or sort of drama. So then think, okay, what is the purpose of this meeting? So therefore I can keep our eyes on the prize about what we're here to discuss. Let me explain my thinking if I think there's something a bit controversial or a bit provocative. Let me explain my workings out so people can see where I'm coming from. Let me accept that people might not be happy. There may be some challenge, but that's why we have humans and not AI, to not just blithely comply with what we tell it to do, and then them say, What else, boss? You know, we we've got humans to be able to um meet that meet in the middle, which might be a better outcome than had everyone just compliantly accepted. So accept that that you might get some challenge and people see things differently, and then rather than competing for who's going to be top dog, collaborating to enable the team win, because the competition isn't each other's ego, the competition is your market competition, or um, you know, whatever your um auditing requirements are or uh um anything that keeps you kind of trading legally, and then the E for the end of peace is engage. So seeking to keep that rapport enough to be able to um work with what's your phrase you say, Debs? You you you you don't have to take people home with you. I know you've got loads of phrases. I'm gonna say which one? Which one? Just referring to our tattoos, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, you're you're on the right lines here. You don't have to pe take people home and love them and live with them, but you do have to get along with them at work, yeah.

SPEAKER_08:

Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, you've got double job. You've got the job you're doing that you're paid for, and then you're doing the job that is, you know, where you've just got all sorts of drama going on. So that's our peace thing. So part of this peace accept, collaborate, engage, and cooking just a little mantra that might be a healthy one. If you're about to step into an interaction, you think, oh, yeah, I can there's some stuff that's going on, and you think, no, it's too good to lose, actually. I love my job. I'm just hating the people at the moment. Let me, what can I do to uh to to play my part in just and catching things before they turn permanent?

SPEAKER_05:

No, I love that actually, that piece purpose, explain, accept, collaborate, engage. That takes a huge amount of self-awareness as well, though, doesn't it? To know that your intent is to go in with that piece in mind. And I love that.

SPEAKER_08:

Yeah. All right. I reckon that I reckon there's more for this, Dev. So the first episode in this five-part was looking at how the fact it's behaviours and stories that kind of shift culture. This one has been looking at, well, what turns a great workplace bad? So what causes great workplaces to turn toxic? Um, and then we're going to be looking at three other different perspectives around looking after yourself, be mindful of your impact on others, and where are there some skills from the coaching and mediation world that can be useful everyday skills as part of that thriving culture at work?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, we could talk about this one, couldn't we, forever? But as you said, you know, it'd be good to hear people's comments on it. Um, yeah, so reach out, as you said, on our YouTube channel um or send us an email because we'd love to hear what you think. Because I think this topic isn't going to go away. No. Um, it feels there's more going on. But well then we would love to hear from a company that is has not got a toxic culture. Yes, if you're the one out there, please come and talk to us because that would be amazing. Because there is always a yin and a yang, right? So then you know, whilst we're hearing this, there must be some that have nailed it and are getting it right. So um that'd be cool. But Law, I I know I shared my call to action, but what's your share the secret?

SPEAKER_08:

Oh, my share the secret is if you are currently sitting nodding along to some of these hair-raising stories that we've shared, and you've thought, you know, this is how I'm I'm feeling, or you've got a friend or a colleague who has just been sort of commenting recently about how things have changed a little bit in their workplace, get them to listen to this so they know they're not alone, that this feeling isn't final, and as you said, the importance of having a support network out there can make all the difference.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I love that. And bring on next week then. Yes, Debs.

SPEAKER_08:

All right. We'll always keep our sources anonymous and confidential. Absolutely, and secrets from a coach.

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, we do hear it, but as you said, but that is just what we're all living with at the moment. And if we're not talking about it, then it doesn't, you know, it doesn't feel real, and therefore you you are not alone because if we're hearing it, I'm sure others are hearing it too. And the beauty is communication, right?

SPEAKER_08:

Absolutely. Keep talking when work is good, it's so good. Yeah and you know, when people reflect towards the end of their um careers about what work has given them, or being, you know, in involved in any work, whether it's paid or unpaid, in the house, outside the house, it's that sense of having done stuff and achieved stuff and being able to be part of something that's bigger than you. So um that's our kind of thing. Is how can we take some lessons and some insights from some of these things so we can make work as as good as we can?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, brilliant. Love it. I look forward to next week, Law.

SPEAKER_08:

Yes, Debs. Have a thriving week. I will, yes, I'll see you on the other side. You will.

SPEAKER_03:

Love you. Love you. Bye.

SPEAKER_01:

I had the chance to work with Wishfish on a really large project for one of their clients focusing on EDI. It was such a brilliant experience because Debs gave me the freedom to be as creative as I wanted while also offering guidance and reassurance along the way. And that balance meant that I could bring new ideas to the table, but I always felt supported. So working alongside Wishfish on something so impactful reminded me just how important it is to combine creativity with structure, and that's exactly what Deb's made possible. So thank you, Wishfish. Um, I really loved working with you and the team.

SPEAKER_07:

Happy birthday, Wishfish. And Tinka here from ABI to buy. The experience I've had with Wishfish has spanned over my goodness, nearly two decades. Wishfish has been there every part of the journey and hopefully will continue to be there going forward. So in celebrating your birthday, I get celebrate the impact you've had on my life and my career.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh my word, where do I start? Debs and Wishfish were my absolute rock during one of the hardest chapters of my life. Debs helped me to visualize my future beyond the trauma, understand my strength and my worth, and to move through challenges calmly, well, mostly, carefully and positively. I came through in good shape and ready for a future in which both my business and my wider life are happy, secure, and focused on good things. I am eternally grateful to you fabulous people. You are making a real difference.

SPEAKER_03:

Happy birthday, Wishfish! I've had the pleasure of working with you for probably the best part of 15 years, which I've enjoyed very much. I think you provide some excellent content, some great support and challenge, and always ready to listen and find a way of getting stuff done. So I wish you all the very best and lots of bubbles and celebrations for the next 20 years.

SPEAKER_02:

I had the pleasure of working with Wishfish and the wider Wishfish team on the design and delivery of a leadership program for over 400 employees, and I couldn't help. Been more thrilled to work with them. Not only do they bring their deep expertise in the LD field, but they possess an uncanny ability to get right to the heart of your business and tailor any solutions accordingly.

SPEAKER_00:

To Debs and to the Wishfish team. Wow, happy birthday, happy 20th birthday, 20 years. Wow, what an achievement. My journey with the Wish Fish team goes back, well, 13 years. I had the pleasure of being on one of the cohorts, a previous employer in a previous life. And the training I received and the coaching I received from the Wish Fish team. Bit of a light bulb moment for me. Opened up my eyes into the world of a new potential and a new way of leadership and a new way of coaching and mentoring than what I'd seen previously. And just want to say a massive, massive thank you for helping me on my career journey. And then as I then progressed, I've had the real pleasure of working again with you, I guess from a more client perspective, and what we've achieved in the last few years wouldn't have been possible without yourselves. I've enjoyed and loved every single minute of working with you on a kind of partnership basis and work walking hand in hand through challenges and uh resolving them. So I can't say enough about you guys. You're all fantastic. Um I know none of you believe that you're that fantastic, but you are. Happy 20th birthday, and here's to many, many more, and huge successes. All the best and happy birthday. Congratulations.