264. Back to Belonging: The Power of Psychological Safety in Teams

If you have to watch your back at work, it’s twice the workload: draining energy, morale and motivation. Over time it can lead to burnout, low engagement and good people walking away.

In the third episode of our Energy Refuel & Reset mini-series, we explore the hot topic of psychological safety - what it really looks like in everyday team life (hint: it’s not just what the company website says).

We strip it right back to the core ingredients that help people feel safe, valued and able to speak up: from everyday trust-building to small behaviours that make a big difference in team dynamics.

Plus, we take a fascinating AI twist: what does belonging look like in hybrid teams made up of both humans and AI colleagues? Can we over-empathise with machines even to our own detriment? Debbie and Laura unpack why empathy is our greatest superpower, and how to use it wisely to stay human, kind and balanced in an evolving world of work. Humans cant help but become emotionally attached to those around them (think 'Wilson' with Tom Hanks in the film Castaway) which is both our superpower and our kryptonite. 

A thought-provoking and energising listen for anyone who wants to build (or rebuild) a culture of trust, connection and care at work.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Scene: Energy And Belonging
• 1:08 Series Context And Today’s Focus
• 2:42 Why Psychological Safety Matters Now
• 4:00 The Four Quadrants Explained
• 6:30 Auditing Safety: Learn, Collaborate, Include, Challenge
• 8:35 Tough Conversations And Respectful Honesty
• 11:20 Managing Triggers And Self-Reflection
• 13:45 Clarity Of Goals As A Unifier
• 16:40 Health And Safety Parallels: Just Culture
• 19:20 Diffused Responsibility And Speaking Up
• 21:25 Humans Plus AI: Shepherd Or Sheep
• 24:10 Belonging, Maslow, And Naming Tech
• 27:05 Guarding Human Value Amid Automation
• 29:15 Key Takeaways: Make Space For Difference
• 31:15 Memorable Metaphor: Belonging As Wi‑Fi
• 33:30 What’s Next And How To Connect

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Coming up on this week's Secrets from a Coach. If you fell over and you were in trouble, you're probably more likely to be helped if there was a single passerby than a thousand passerbys.

SPEAKER_01: 0:14

No way. Belonging is basically the human equivalent of Wi-Fi. If we're not connected, nothing else loads properly.

SPEAKER_00: 0:27

Secrets from a coach. Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson Stavely of Phenomenal Training. Laura, you're alright? Yeah, I'm doing well. How's your week been? Oh yeah, it's been good. I've had some good. Nice connections with people. Nice. I've had um there's been, you know, some times. It's always uh that when you're um, you know, running your own micro business or whatever we would call ourselves, where you kind of think, is anybody out there? And actually this week there's been some echoes back from the valley. So uh yeah, I think it's um yeah, those relationships that you form actually people might be really busy or really caught up with stuff, but when people feel like there's a sense of trust and they know that they can uh have good, honest conversations, I think that seems to mean a lot at the moment, which is why we thought wouldn't it be an interesting edge to add into our current four-part miniseries looking at energy refuel and reset. First one looked at how do you keep your endurance as the years go on. Second one, last week we were joined by the incredible Zoe Lewis, who uh runs agile um recruitment, and she was um telling us about some things that can really help reclaim motivation when your tanks feeling a bit empty. Her personal perspective and also professional as a um recruiter, and then this one we're looking at actually it can be exhausting if you feel like you're working as part of a team where you don't feel safe. And so this one is going to be looking at back to belonging. How do we create a sense of psychological safety in teams? So, Dave, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. How hot of a topic is psychological safety at the moment in the world of work? What's your read?

SPEAKER_01: 2:23

Um yeah, it is a hot topic actually, and wherever you're going at the moment, we often get people, you know, what as we say, drop that phrase in about psychological safety. But it's been around for a very, very long time. But it feels a little bit like this is the next thing to, you know, after wellness and well-being. Now we're looking at psychological safety. But like wellness and well-being, it's been around forever, but there seems to be this focus in on it. And I think it has always been there, but because of the raised awareness of it, more and more people are jumping on and going, Oh, how can we make people like psychologically safe? And and one of the questions that I always say is, okay, so what does that mean for you as a team, as an organization? And it's always really interesting for people to unpack what they believe it looks like rather than actually just use that as a buzzword for now, um, which, as you know, is one thing that I cannot stand, is like either do it properly, don't just jump on the wagon and then don't do anything about it. And I think that's the bit that's really interesting at the moment is understanding it for what it means, because you know from your work in the health and safety world law that yeah, health and safety has been around a lot longer. Um, but every now and again it becomes the flavour of the month. And um it's it's not just in these moments, it's all the time we have to be aware of what it takes to create psychological safety. Um, and I love it because there are four, there are four main quadrants um when you're looking at psychological safety. And I know we're gonna go and explore um some of them and you're gonna link it into the work you've been doing as well, Law. But they are basic safety needs for all of us to feel like we belong. Um, and the four are learner, so learner safety. Am I allowed to make mistakes? Can I learn from them? Can I experiment? Um, am I able to ask great questions and discover new ways of being or working? So that's learner safety is one of the quadrants. The other one is, you know, which is sort of one that I just love, is the collaborator safety. So, you know, how do I engage people in an unconstrained way? Um, how do I interact with colleagues well? Do we have a mutual access to each other? Um, and how do we truly maintain open dialogue and you know foster that spirit of great debate, you know, disruptive thinking, but it's done from a safe space from a collaboration to want to learn. So going back to the first one. And then the other one is inclusion safety, where you absolutely know and feel that you feel valued and that people are treated fairly and well. Um, and you feel like your experiences matter, so that I matter in this team, which is super important. Um, and I suppose that links a bit into good old Maslow's hierarchy of needs around the belonging element, which I know we're going to talk about a bit later. But I think it's that feeling of being included regardless of your title or position, um, and that you're invited to openly contribute. So your ideas aren't shut down, um, which you know means you can engage in a in an unconstrained way, which links into the collaborator bit, which means you can discover and ask questions, which links into the learner safety. Um, and then the fourth one is challenger, challenger safety. So this ability to speak up and feel safe and secure to speak up, to share your ideas and express them in a way of creating that debate and discussion around them. Um, being safe to actually expose problems, so not just walk on by or ignore it. It's you know, that feeling that you can challenge the status quo as well, um, and not just stick with it because it's easy. So that challenger safety is something that enables us to feel included, to feel like we can add value, and to also know that we can continue to learn and grow, which ultimately gives us a lot more motivation, but it also enables us to feel like we really do belong and that we do matter.

SPEAKER_00: 6:21

I think that's so handy to hear that being lifted as those four four areas because actually, as you listen to those, that's the first time I've heard those four quadrants. You it almost enables you to do a little audit. So, do I feel safe to learn and potentially um not be the expert here? So to ask the silly question. Do I feel safe to collaborate? So to ask, hey, what are you up to? How can we work together without fear of I'm just going to end up with more work? Actually, we're then going to be able to um treat each other respectfully. So it's so collaborating isn't just dumping work across to each other and doing a runner, but actually being able to collaborate. Do I feel safe to be invited or to ask to be invited around a certain discussion table? And do I feel safe to challenge? So that'd be really interesting, actually, when we pick that up and look at that from um lessons from the health and safety world. But Debs, I just think that's so interesting here in those four quadrants. And I'm wondering how much Amy Edmondson we have to thank for putting this on our radar because that's where I started to hear her name, um, having sort of done lots to promote this idea of psychological safety. And I've got her description here that I just think fits really nicely with what you were saying. So, psychological safety, a belief that one will not be punished or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes, and that the team is safe into personal risk taking. And what I wanted to sort of ask you from a practical point of view is I'm hearing a lot of people saying in hushed tones, sort of muttering it, you know, as a sort of a sidebar, which is it's increasingly not feeling like a safe space for people to ask about political beliefs, thoughts about what might be going on in our wider society, and there seem to be more conversational no-go areas that actually is then making it quite tricky for teams to be able to speak freely with each other. And I've kind of really been sort of um, you know, from a personal perspective, from a professional perspective, trying to work out well, how do you square that circle? And I guess it's somehow looking for the common theme. We're both passionate about doing the right thing, we just have different perspectives as to what doing the right thing might mean in that context. But help me to understand your map of the world, I'll explain my map of the world, and then we can still work in a neighbourly fashion with each other, even if we accept that we might a win isn't just to change the other person's view.

SPEAKER_01: 8:54

Yeah, that is oh my god, that's so it is a hot topic, Laura. And you're right, people are finding how to best navigate their way um you know through that landscape. And I think when we look at why belonging matters in a team and to have that ability, um, I suppose to have those open conversations, it's it's that sense of being seen and valued and accepted for who you are, not just what you do. So the more we can understand um each other, so the more we can, as you said, let me look at it from your map of the world. What does that mean for you? I've not come across that. Let me hear your views, or can I share mine? There has to be a level of, I suppose, mutual respect and understanding as well, and knowing that um I can speak my mind, but I'm gonna put a caveat, a butt on that. Knowing what the impact of what you're about to say could have on someone, because I always say, you know, if you I want to you know when people always say to us in a workshop, um, I want us to be honest, um, when you we do the work in agreement, honesty always comes up. And that question I always, always ask is I think that's great. It's a lovely word on a flip chart, right? How can I ask you a question? Yes, they go. So again, I've asked permission to ask the question, how honest are one are they willing to be, but also how honest do you want us to be with you as well? And you can feel the penny just go, oops, I not really thought that far. Because I if no one agrees what that honesty really looks like, and we could annihilate someone. If my choice is to go, I could be super honest with you and I could absolutely annihilate you, but I haven't checked in as to how you want to receive that, or how honest are you expecting us to be, or how is that gonna work in reality if I press a nerve? Yeah, whatever. So there's lots of groundwork, I think, that has to go before it because it's a throwaway comment and we hear it all the time, and I go, and people go, be brutally honest. And I go, yeah, but what does brutal mean for you? Because I don't use the word brutal, and brutal means I'm gonna literally bash you up and annihilate you. That's not who I am, and I wouldn't want to do that in a workshop, by the way, and I wouldn't want to do it outside of a workshop. So let's reaffirm what does brutal mean if we're talking about brutal honesty. And I think it's the same in these types of conversations that are coming around. I don't feel safe to share my view or speak up about my belief about what's going on in the world. Um, and I think that's why there has to be some really cleverly crafted, I suppose, rituals, rules, ways of working in that moment that keeps people feeling safe, not afraid to say their piece, but also it's a it's an opinion, and we all have opinions, but it's a lot about the people receiving or hearing those opinions. How do they manage their emotions within that? Because we get triggered, you know. I mean, we were just having a conversation as a team yesterday, weren't we, about what was going on in your local area and how it was just we all had a different, a slightly different opinion on it. We all wanted the same output, but there were so many different ways you could look at it, and I think that's the beauty of that ability to see it from as many different viewpoints as you can, and then it's your choice as to what you want to do next with that information. It is always your choice. Um, Deb so yeah, I don't know how else to say really.

SPEAKER_00: 12:23

I just think you're absolutely spot on, and linking that between essential psychological safety within a team. I've kind of I was just summarising my mind when you were saying I've I'm free to be me, but I'm mindful of you. So I'm free to be me and to say actually I'm not happy about this thing that I've just read on the way to work, or I'm not happy about this update that's just gone out, but I'm also mindful of you might not like my views, but how do we still work and communicate in a way so we've still got that rapport and that rapport, that sense of we're still listening to each other, and we still like working with each other, even though someone might have some views that you don't like. Actually, life is so complicated now, they don't seem to be this simple, you know, one side and then another side. There are so many areas of grey because there's so much news and so many opinions that are kind of out there. But I just thought I'd sort of raise that because psychological safety, you might have the type of role where calling out and or challenging isn't you can see someone's about to carry out an unsafe act and you've got to step in. Actually, that's quite a black and white scenario. What we're actually hearing more is that life seems quite complicated now with all of these different emotions and thoughts swirling around. You might have a role that's quite global, so you get to hear all sorts of different insights and you're quite used to that. You might have a role that's quite local, and um, you know, how do we work alongside each other in a safe way as we see maybe sort of more divides kind of happening? So I just thought that might be a nice summary. I'm free to be me, but I'm mindful of you. So we may have some views that we don't like, but we still like working with each other because actually the common denominator is we both care about the right thing being done. It's just the method that we might have differences of opinion.

SPEAKER_01: 14:13

And I suppose that's how I suppose managers and leaders and you know peers can navigate their way through it. Is to I've written one of the things when we were thinking about that was make space for difference. So, you know, expect different ways of thinking and working. I think go in with that, the ways of communication will be different. So if you have that expectation that that that is how it is going to be, then you're not gonna be as surprised or shocked or like, well, that's not what we do around here. You know, it's not that, it's around how we can position that with regards to, you know, we if when we hear people say, Well, we all think the similar or we all think the same, and I go, but do you? Yeah, when I I love that in team coaching where when somebody does the royal we and we all think the same, and uh no, you don't, you know, and I I mean I don't say it like that.

SPEAKER_00: 14:59

But I was saying breaking the sophie in a moment.

SPEAKER_01: 15:03

Yeah, literally, what really? No, you do definitely do not all think the same. You may have common themes, but you definitely don't think the same. None of us do. We all have different nuances to our thinking. Um, and I think that way around, rather than if we hear that language, because that can squish lots of belonging and creativity and collaboration and safety, it's around you know, actually being aware to expect that different perspectives help us make better decisions. So embrace that ability to learn, going back to learner safety, that actually, yeah, you might have a different opinion, but I might learn something from that. Again, it comes back to what do I then do with that information? Um, and it's up to me because if, you know, I think Laura, if you said something and I'm I'm going, oh, bloody hell, I don't agree with what Law said then, and I carry that away with me, then that's more about me than you because I haven't dealt with what is that triggering within me? What is it that triggered that thought, that feeling? I haven't worked on myself to understand what it was exactly as to you know, why am I going, you know, after the conversations have happened. And I think it always comes back to self, you know, think what didn't I like about that? What was it that it triggered in me? And it could be anything. So that is, I think, really key to understand first. What is it?

SPEAKER_00: 16:23

I love it. And I was just thinking, if a comment I'd made had got under your skin, yeah, then actually there's uh there's a bit of work my side to be mindful, and a bit of work your side, which is develop a thick skin enough to be able to work with sort of differences to then preserve your energy. Because I guess that's that that skin, you know, is it using that as a metaphor, is your physical boundary so you don't fall apart, and it's almost having that psychological boundary of um, well, I recognise you see things differently, but as a team, we are I mean that's why you need goals, you need an idea of team identity that's not just do we all believe the same. We might all have different beliefs and different perspectives, but we've got a higher arching vision which gives us something to work towards, which actually is, I think, what some of the teams I've been working with recently have found a challenge. Because there's so much rapid, ongoing, evolving change hanging onto a vision that is the overarching vision of where we're all pointing towards that North Star or that kind of guiding light. When that's a bit shady or it's not particularly thought through, or it's not been communicated, then you've got a lot of people looking around at each other rather than all looking forward at the uh at that kind of sort of goal. So I think the stronger the goal and the vision, the easier it is for a team made up of difference to be able to align and unify. So I think that's an interesting call for leaders is how how how how much clarity is there around what are we going for, what's the win, how do we combine our efforts so you're not just left with everyone looking at each other going, Do we all believe the same? Because chances are that doesn't happen these days.

SPEAKER_01: 18:00

No, it definitely doesn't happen. And I think in a way that's a good thing. Otherwise, you know, it's that sometimes creates that silo mentality if everybody is thinking the same way, um, and it you just have blinkers on. So when somebody different turns up and suggests something else, everybody looks as if to go, what? You know, but we've always done it like that. Yeah, we know that. Um, and I think that's that's what happens. It's laziness, I think, as well, Law, to even think.

SPEAKER_00: 18:30

Let's link that to some interesting concepts from the world of health and safety.

SPEAKER_01: 18:35

Oh, yes, this is your bag. Let's do that.

SPEAKER_00: 18:37

Let's roll up, mother cut. So I remember having my mind blown, Debs, by the concept that if you fell over and you were in trouble, you're probably more likely to be helped if there was a single passer-by than a thousand passerbys.

SPEAKER_01: 19:12

No way.

SPEAKER_00: 19:13

Because it's what's known as diffused responsibility. Somebody somewhere will do something to help. No one else is helping, so maybe that's the script I need to follow. So it links to bystander apathy. Right. Whereas if you're the only person walking past some poor woman that's fallen on the floor, of course you would then instinctively go to help that person because you're a hundred percent of the um option to help. Whereas if there's a thousand people walking along a bridge, you're 0.01% of that option to help. You're part of that part that solution. So there's some interesting stuff around um, well, if no one's challenging, then we just accept that. And potentially that might be some unsafe behaviour that's making people feel a bit kind of weird with that. So I think there's been some interesting stuff from the world of health and safety, and where Amy Edmondson really brought this term of psychological safety to life, Professor James' reason was key with um part of the incident and accident investigations with some of the big industrial incidents that have happened around what led to people not feeling safe enough to say actually that was never being done the right way. We've been doing it the dangerous work-around way for months, if not years. So it's become custom and practice, even though it was unsafe working. And he talked about creating a just culture. So is it fair how um challenges are dealt with? Are people um blacklisted because they've been seen to be troublemakers because they keep talking about the fact that something's not safe? So, in the world of health and safety, I think there's some very, very um uh you know, powerful and quite sad examples of when you don't have a sense of belonging as a team, i.e., that's someone else's problem, diffuse responsibility, or I don't feel like it's uh I'm gonna be treated justly, so I don't feel safe to be able to challenge, then some really awful things can kind of um happen. So that sense that you are being able to speak up if things aren't right, like you mentioned, that collaborate that um challenger uh aspect of psychological safety. But what I think is gonna be quite interesting for us, by the way, Debs, this is the robot's AI bit.

SPEAKER_01: 21:24

So Oh, here we go. Right, I'm listening, right? I'm I'm strapped in ready, I'm up for it. Listen, give me the robot speak.

SPEAKER_00: 21:30

So, what I think is gonna be interesting for a lot of us in the various different random roles that we have is with reference to tech and technology being part of our team part. So, you know, let's say you're a team and you run a call, you work at a call center together, half of your manpower might be an AI chatbot that is responding on your behalf, and the difficult ones then come through to you. So, this concept of there being real mixed teams, so humans plus AI working to get working together from the customer point of view, it's a seamless customer experience, or it should be. Um but this idea of working alongside non-humans. And what I think is going to be quite interesting is um are we the sheep that just does what the AI tells us to do? Or are we the shepherd that is still having the ultimate decision about whether something happens or not? And I remember having this kind of flight of fancy when um I got a I got a new car about six, seven years ago, that was when I started to be interested in robots. At what point do I just comply with the car giving me instructions? Or to what point do I defy and go, no, actually I am gonna slow down, even though you haven't told me I need to slow down? And that's about having your wits about you, able to be aware of what's my role in the in the in the scheme of things here. And the link between that and safety is a quirk I think that our grandparents and parents wouldn't have had to think about is up until about three years ago, we only had to be concerned about fellow human behaviour.

SPEAKER_01: 23:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 23:06

Now, in the ever-evolving world of work, that just might be something else to add into the mix, which is how safe and reliable are the non-human agents in our world of work, and at what point are we the shape sheep? At what point are we the shepherd? And what does that then mean to be able to learn, collaborate, include, and challenge some of those AIs that we're increasingly relying upon? So I don't quite know what we do about that, Debs, but I just thought I'd land that because it's it's an interesting build, isn't it? James Reason wouldn't be talking about AI, it would have still been in the sci-fi world in the 17s and 80s. Yeah. Amy Edmondson's talks a lot about psychological safety, but only really from the human aspect. But we're seeing increasingly more human AI jobs where you're using a bit of human and a bit of AI. And I just wonder what that's going to mean to create a sense of team belonging.

SPEAKER_01: 24:02

That is fascinating. You know what you've got me thinking about is going back to the good oldy Goldie Maslow's hierarchy of need. Shall we have a quick look at that before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_00: 24:14

During the war. Oh, we love that one. Go on, get out the equivalent of Elvis. So Lore. Refresh me, Debs. Refresh me. Refresh you. Lore.

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

Let me refresh you about Maslow.

SPEAKER_00: 24:36

Yeah, it's page two of every leadership motivation sort of model.

SPEAKER_01: 24:39

Everybody brings Maslow out. Yeah, but I'm still the most that people haven't seen it. But basically, for those that haven't, it's a triangle. There's always a triangle. It's got layers to it, um, starting with the basic needs, safety needs, belonging, love needs, the recognition, reward, and then self-actualization at the very top. Um, and Maslow talks about one of those layers is the um belonging or love and belonging need. And it is about feeling connected to others, being accepted as part of a group, having meaningful relationships and feeling valued, included, and cared about. And I think it's the bridge that bring, you know, belonging acts as that bridge between simply surviving but also throughout but and thriving at work. Just as you were saying about that, you know, we work with the robot, the AI, and you know, the second line person might be a human. It just got me thinking, how do you therefore feel connected if your AI bot is the first level of answering a customer call? So, how do you create that connection with that, which isn't a human? And I'm thinking that's it, how do you accept it as part of your group working together? That's part of who the team is. So, how do you start to accept that? It just got me thinking about that. And do you have a meaningful relationship with it? I mean, it just blows my mind as to where this is going. But as you were saying about that, it just got me thinking of basic, basic belonging from Maslow back in the 70s, is about those four key areas. And yeah, I don't know, Law, where do we go with that?

SPEAKER_00: 26:16

Well, Debs, very quickly, and I know it's a bit random, but you're making you remind me of some of the research that I got involved uh interested in when I um had my first wake up and smell the silica moment about how there's a human compulsion to name things. I mean, you've named your flipping um chat GPT.

SPEAKER_01: 26:34

I did, Arthur. Yeah. So whether it's feel like he belonged.

SPEAKER_00: 26:39

Exactly. Now, that's the risk there, Deb. Yeah. Because when you see things like police handler, dog handlers, and hearing of people that have jumped in to save their dog because they are literally their right-hand work colleague, but it's a non-human, you then hear about um soldiers that have risked their life going in to save the drone because they've worked alongside that drone for years and they've named it. And actually, the reason why we have technology is to be the doer so that we don't have to do those dangerous things. But there's there's there's a dilemma. The longer you work alongside something, the more there is a human need to connect, belong, give it a name. And interesting, I remember reading the report. A lot of soldiers called their um drones that they worked alongside, um, ex-love, ex-lover.

SPEAKER_01: 27:31

Oh wow, really? Wow. Yes, because that's really interesting. Because this piece I was doing on it as you were talking, it's belonging is the emotional foundation that allows people to feel secure enough to take risks, be creative, and perform at their best.

SPEAKER_00: 27:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:48

Which is what you're saying, isn't it? It's like it's mind-blowing when we think about where is that going and how do we feel this sense of belonging, but I'd say belonging to what?

SPEAKER_00: 28:00

Yeah. And and and what you'd be trained in is to be aware of that fool's gold almost of starting to emotionally connect with a bit of tech that actually is replaceable, whereas you, as the human agent, are irreplaceable. And maybe that links then to as a just linking it back from a management perspective, how do you create that human sense of there might be 30 within our team, but we're all irreplaceable, we're really valuable. Um, let's actually spend some time having some human interaction because here we are in 2025, we're mid-decade, by 2035. Who knows how the world of work is going to evolve? But the same things that can harm you, can hurt you, can degrade your health mentally and physically are likely to still be similar because you know, us humans aren't going to physically evolve within 10 years, but our environment then is. So, how do we make sure we look after each other? So I know a lot of our episodes tend to arrive at the same point, but from a psychological safety point of view, yes, it's been talked about for years, but I think there's an interesting edge that we might just worthwhile having a bit of a think about is how do you then still keep the human safe and protected? And let's not squabble about individual differences and beliefs. Yes, because there's gonna be more of that. I mean, I can't see things calming down, there's only gonna be more noise. And how do you create that sense of psychological safety where you're coming home to your team? We have different beliefs, and I'm free to be me, but I'm mindful of you.

SPEAKER_01: 29:33

Yeah, I love that. Oh my god, this is definitely a whole episode on its own, isn't it? We'd love to hear, listeners, we'd love to hear your thoughts on this because we have literally just made those connections between, you know, the work that Amy Edmondson's been doing, you know, the psychological safety stuff, the Maslow, which has been around forever, the AI, you know, that's now come around. I mean, it's just mind blowing as to where it could go. But at the end of the day, I think it's still. If you're a decent human being, you will do the right thing, but you have to be a decent human being, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:05

Yes, Debs. And to wrap up, Tom Gerity does some fascinating stuff with um psychological safety and what that means from a health and safety perspective. And I love his phrase, you can't fix a secret. So linking back to your four elements, how do we create uh an environment where people feel safe to challenge? So um so people feel safe to sort of speak up.

SPEAKER_01: 30:24

Yeah, Debs. Oh my god, I love that. Wow, what an interesting little um thought journey we've just had. We've literally gone on, yeah. Welcome to our brains, everybody.

SPEAKER_00: 30:35

Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_01: 30:36

Well, uh, one listener might be entertained, so uh they might be entertained by that, going, oh, now I know why they come up with rack wacky ways of doing things differently.

SPEAKER_00: 30:45

Absolutely. Um, listen, how do we extract from here some kind of tangible takeaways? So yeah, your trademark call to action and my share the secret.

SPEAKER_01: 30:55

Oh, that's a good one. So I think it I'm gonna go back to thinking a bit of a reflective question for self. So to use with teams as well, I think you use it with self and your team. So asking them or asking and of yourself, when do you personally feel most included and valued in this team? And what's one thing we can do more or less of to support that? So be have be how ask a reflective question.

SPEAKER_00: 31:22

Nice. Uh very impressed by your ability to be able to tie that down to a tangible takeaway, Devs. So I asked you to go first, I'm thinking, how am I gonna arrive at this point? Um, but that's completely inspired me because I'm thinking share this with someone. If you know someone with whom the um the sense of psychological safety is just depleting and it's not feeling like a good space at the moment, and maybe they're using you as a friend to sort of as to kind of vent their thoughts or frustration. Get them to listen to this, and and I guess the desire for all of our episodes is get a bit of fresh air to your thinking, to get a bit of a bigger perspective, to know you're not alone. This is a real hot topic, and it's such a privilege that we and the team have to be able to sniff behind the scenes of all sorts of different industries, and that sense of creating team belonging. And the link between that and energy refuel and reset is work is even more exhausting if you feel like you're constantly having to watch your back. Work is much more energizing if you know you work in an environment where everyone is watching out for your back. So it's that sort of camaraderie bit.

SPEAKER_01: 32:29

Oh my god, I'm gonna leave you with something that came up that I must tell you was around belonging. Um, I I wrote down here belonging is basically the human equivalent of Wi-Fi. If we're not connected, nothing else loads properly. Microp moment.

SPEAKER_00: 32:47

Yes, Debs. I absolutely love that.

SPEAKER_01: 32:51

Yeah, let's connect properly, not like half a signal.

SPEAKER_00: 32:56

Absolutely, and you've got to really cherish those BT engineers in your life because they're the ones that keep us going.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

Oh my god, this has been so cool, Lau.

SPEAKER_00: 33:06

Yeah, oh thank you. Love chatting about this topic. Oh my god, me too. Looking forward to next week's and next week is the fourth in our fourth part focus, looking at energy, refuel, and reset. And that is the empathy edge, leading with heart in a tough world. God, that sounds like a men's aftershave advert, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 33:24

I thought it was gonna, you were gonna belt out a song then. A ballard.

SPEAKER_00: 33:28

Oh my god, that feels like a Gillette byline or something. Yes. Leading leading with heart in a tough world. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01: 33:36

There are other shavers out there originally, by the way.

SPEAKER_00: 33:38

Shavers. Oh dead.

SPEAKER_01: 33:43

Oh, have a good one.

SPEAKER_00: 33:44

All right, love you.

SPEAKER_01: 33:45

Love you. Bye.

SPEAKER_00: 33:50

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