Secrets From a Coach - Debbie Green & Laura Thomson's Podcast

265. The Empathy Edge: Leading with Heart in a Tough World

• Season 21 • Episode 265

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In this final part of our 4-part Energy Refuel and Reset mini series we share 3 scenarios that demo the need and the challenges around balancing empathy with edge. Caring personally, challenging directly and practical examples for how to do this with peers, direct reports and managing upwards.

SPEAKER_00:

Coming up on this week's Secrets from a Coach. So the opportunity is to refine that energy, not by chipping away at that person's self-esteem and self-belief. So it's not about gaming or you know playing games, it's about clarity upon expectation.

SPEAKER_01:

I will ask because I care. Um, and rather than just give up on it, I'm gonna explore with you as to what we can do.

SPEAKER_00:

Secrets from a coach. Thrive and maximise your potential in the evolving workplace. Your weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish and Laura Thompson Staveley of Phenomenal Training.

SPEAKER_01:

Devs. Law, you alright?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I'm doing well. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm alright, actually. I'm still buzzing, actually, off of last week's little chat that we had because I just thought it was just amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my goodness. So if you haven't listened to it, this is the uh this is the main thing. We started off talking about the power of psychological safety, which is the third in our four-part focus, looking at energy refuel and reset. So in our first part of this four-part uh mini-series, we've looked at finishing well, keeping strong for the long run without burning out. We then had the incredible guest, Zoe Lewis, who gave some really poignant um pointers and tips for reclaiming motivation when your tank feels a bit empty, particularly if you've dealt with redundancy. And then last week, so we started off around psychological safety and teams, and then we sort of don't know how devs went into the world of AI and robots and how actually part of maybe the future skill set we're gonna need is how to work alongside non-human elements in our teams. So if you're working with a chatbot or an autodialer or whatever that bit of AI might be. And actually, one of the things that us humans might need to watch out is it's in terms our in turn our superpower to empathize, but it also can be our kryptonite, so hearing stories of people breaking their back to protect the machine that they're using, which is there to make safe manual handling, for example. So actually, how can we ensure that we don't necessarily use and abuse our um non-human counterparts, but also we remember that they're there to help us stay safe and uh you know, kind of endure whatever performance standards that we're needing to meet. So it was an interesting one, wouldn't it, Debs? We got really excited.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh yeah, we did because we realized that actually as humans we can't help but empathise with people. And I know that's something around you know, some people see it as something being soft or you know, but actually empathy is far from it. I think it's the bit where you you are actually, if you like, doesn't mean you agree with people either, empathy. It doesn't mean you rescue people. Um, it's simply acknowledging the reality of someone's where they're at, with their internal world, before you respond or guide to them. So you know what we're not making, we're not sort of being have not avoiding tough conversations either, because sometimes having empathy with that little edge can can can actually be quite a tough conversation to have with somebody, but because of your understanding it from their map of the world, as we always say, um, it is definitely anything part you know being a soft, overly soft skill to be an empathetic leader or to think empathy isn't um isn't something we should consider. I think it right now it's the most, I think it's one of the most important things to sort of consider along with compassion.

SPEAKER_00:

Debs, love it. Got a reflection on that. I've never met I've never met anyone or heard anyone explain in a in an exit interview. The problem is my boss is just too empathetic. That's why I'm leaving. However, I do hear high performers and people with whom they might want to retain in their organisation leaving because there's lack of vision, standards are slipping, or they feel like there's not um uh they're the right cultural morale around them. So I think it's going to be super interesting to look at why we've called this the empathy edge. So it's empathy, it's the empathy bit, but with that edge that ensures that we're not getting lost in that emotion, but we're using that emotion in an intelligent way. I'd love to hear your thoughts, Debs, on there's a couple of little scenarios that people have shared with me recently, which um I'd love to hear your thoughts on what it means to bring an empathy edge to real life in that moment. So I was chatting with a group of new managers on a management session the other week, and they are an international-based team, but the majority of people live um in or around the city and there's where the where their office is, and there's an expectation for people to come into the office three days a week and certain days of that week. However, one of the managers was saying one of the big challenges they've got at the moment is their superstar, so the one person in the team that really is bringing in the goods at the moment, okay, has a tendency to not turn up in the office when they say they're going to last-minute messaging, saying actually I've decided to not come in, which then has a knock-on effect with the rest of the team being able to be efficient. Thing is, how does that manager address that to bring some of that rigour in, but without spoiling the sense of psychological commitment because that person is delivering fantastic work? So, what would that mean to bring an empathetic edge to that situation?

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Oh my god, there's so many angles to that actually, Law, as you're talking. One, how can one person have so much control? Um, and where is the you know the kahunas of that leader manager to manage them well and set the expectations in the first place? Um, but I think actually to be curious, if you know I would, as their leader manager, I would be more curious about what is going on for the individual. Yes, there's an expectation being set that they turn up because why would you not? Because everyone else is, so what makes you different? Um, but yeah, I think it will be around open, curious, open questions to sort of making sure, I suppose, that you're finding out what's stopping that individual from doing it. So, you know, what is the hardest part of this for you turning up at work? Good question. Yeah, yeah. What is the hardest part of that? And not putting the guilt on them to say, well, the rest of the team do it, so why should you, you know, why shouldn't you? Because and what support would you feel helpful right now in order to get you to come in three days a week? Because that's the expectation we have. Because those cut just those two questions alone can enable um the responsibility is with them and the while keeping the connection with you. So there's an element of being curious, not jumping to to fix it for them or to help them with it, but I think also to just say as it is, you know, what is it? What's stopping you? Um, what's the hardest part of this for you? So you're getting to understand why they, you know, they think they shouldn't, you know, they're too good to turn up to work along with everybody else. So I think that leader manager needs to, yeah, I think they need to have quite a straightforward conversation where the accountability is still with that individual in order to to, I suppose, maintain and hold those professional boundaries in a way, um, because they're performance standards, right? That's the standards they've set for the whole team. So what's stopping this individual? Yes, they might be bringing in millions and millions, but at what cost is that going to have on the rest of the team? Um if they can see one person getting away with it ultimately, um, you know, you need to ask, you know, what's really going on here? What is the real stopper for that individual to come back in? Because it's just not fair. Um, and fairness is a massive value of mine, and that doesn't seem right, and it's just not fair on everybody else. So, yeah, I think there's a couple of I don't know, yeah, if that answered your question, Law.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because I think the the empathy bit of help me to understand and bring in that curiosity bit, but then the context of the edge of expectations, and and that's where I think as an organization, what I think is tricky for line managers is when there isn't that clear expectation that's been set. And actually, this year has been an interesting one, Debs. What I'm getting the feeling of is actually there's been a number of organisations that have said have gone, right, that's it. We're now going to set some clear expectations about working from home, um, uh how we manage our communication or whatever those kind of left to left to come up with their own sort of uh norms. And actually, if it's all so agile and flexible, then it's really tricky then to have a um a conversation. If you've got 70,000 employees, yeah, at some point there's got to be some kind of way to organise that. Maybe if you're a startup and there's only a handful of people, it's easy to be on um specific tailored terms for everyone. But I think I'm seeing it's a challenge when maybe there's um some sort of a lack of clarity coming from the senior team. But we see more and more of that clarity coming out where I think people have said we've got to have some some expectations so we can be empathetic, but with an edge.

SPEAKER_01:

With an edge, I think so. And that and also, you know, it's tough out there, and I just think they're potentially gonna make a rod for their own back in relation to what happens when that superstar suddenly becomes complacent or leaves or thinks that they're too good for everybody else. Yeah, what happens then? Because that I suppose they're putting a burden on that, they're putting them on the pedestal. Maybe they like it for now, but at what cost is that to them in the long run, I think. Um, yeah, that's an interesting one to do. Personally, you know, there are should not be superstars. I do know there are, but there and they will always be your steady eddies and ednas, you get your you know, the people that are the pain in the bums and your nagging Norma and Normans or whatever people call them, and you do have those superstars, but if we put them out there on a pedestal, it's it's not helping them, and it certainly isn't helping you as the manager in the long run.

SPEAKER_00:

So the opportunity is to refine that energy not by chipping away at that person's self-esteem and self-belief. So it's not about gaming or you know, playing games, it's about clarity upon expectation, I guess, isn't it? Around what the expectations are, and want to continue your stellar career here with us. There's an opportunity to get some clarity so we're able to sustain and maintain that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely, and being clear, and you know, that's what we said that it it's that clarity and collaboration piece going on here because it we get into messy water sometimes because sometimes we do some leaders, and you know, we've come across them, they want to be liked and respected and trusted, and they want to be seen to be being all things to all people and this fair and transparent, and and they tie themselves up in knots sometimes because they haven't actually stopped to think about, you know, well, what is it that I'm actually leading? How am I leading here? And I think that can really uh not help them, and I think that's where we sometimes work with those leaders to help them to reset their boundaries, help them to reset the reason you're in that job being paid a big fat wage is because you are the leader and there are certain expectations of a leader that you are having to live up to. Fascinating.

SPEAKER_00:

It really it really is because discretionary, um, grey area, non-sort binary decision making is the human edge bit. So I think this is going to be more and more of uh what it's gonna be, you know, for for for a leader in in the uh evolving world of work is if if there aren't exact rules and it's manager discretion, um then uh you know that that's that that's where these boundaries can sort of uh just just be such a useful way to hold on to an edge so you can be empathetic. So I've got another one for you. Go on, Law. All right, brace yourself. There's too much empathy if there ever can be such a thing. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. There is a manager that we uh that we've been working with, with whom let's say someone said, Um, I've got a sore foot, and they'd say, Um, have two months off, have whatever you need, just take whatever time you need, because I want to be an empathetic leader. And actually, the knock-on effect that then is is starting to have. So, what thoughts could then help just create that balance of empathy that is appropriate when you're in a role and there's a need to do things within that role. Um, you know, and and then and then we are in a in an increasingly perception of a tough world. So there are real life tough things that people are dealing with outside work, elder care, childcare, homeschooling. You know, if you've got a kid who's refusing to go into school that day, that's a tough morning that you've got, you know, before your 10 o'clock big senior meeting that you're at. So, yeah, what's your sort of thoughts on in this energy refill and reset um mini-series we're doing? Because that's knackering if you're handling a lot of other stuff. So I guess the simple question is what is that balance between enough empathy, but not too much empathy, so we're not creating a scenario where everyone gets months off because they've got a sore toe.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Oh my goodness. I mean, there is that tough bit that goes, that's great, just come back into work, you know, or I'm gonna send you some work home. Or um, and again, without going into it, I would always think first about well, what's going on for that leader? You know, why do they feel the need to just say, yeah, take time off, and not necessarily think about the impact that could have longer term? Um, I think there's also the uh understanding and expectation. You know, I understand it's you know it's been a tough week for you, or um, yeah, and we still need consistent attendance to keep the team moving forward. So, what would help you get back into a steadier rhythm from here? Um, and it's the and um that we need to consider, not the but I need you to still turn up. Let's talk through what your options are at this moment and decide what next step you'll take. So, again, the empathy, um, the sorry, the emphasis is on the individual. Um, and I think, yeah, your feelings make sense. That's something I've always said when somebody is really up against it. I hear you your feelings make complete sense and you are responsible for how you choose to respond to those. So, what's the most constructive move you can make next? So, again, you're you're putting it back onto that individual to own it rather than you fix it for them or rescue them or just not hold them to account. Yeah, we are accountable for ourselves, no one else, you know, we can be responsible and have ownership, but actually accountability sits within us as individuals. And if the leader manager can put that back onto the individual by asking questions like that with the and, um, because you know, I'm here to support you, I can't fix this for you. Um, but what would you like to try first? And where do you want my help? It's it's putting the owners back on the individual to think for themselves about, oh yeah, my me, maybe I should really turn up, or I should find another way solution to do it, rather than parent them or molycoddle them or wrap them up in cotton wool.

SPEAKER_00:

Debs, I think this is absolute gold. So, from a from a behaviour point of view, it really reminds me of the skill set that was drummed into me when I was a shoe shop assistant back in 1995.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so there I was back in 1995, and uh so everyone was buying platform sandals and knee high boots, and knee high boots are still in, but anyway, um they're still there and platforms. Absolutely. So, um, and it was absolutely drilled into us. If there was a customer objection, you acknowledge it, so you say, Yeah, I see what you mean. So, what would be the heel height that you'd be more interested in? So you're keeping that dialogue open. And I'm thinking, my God, that's such a transferable skill to the world of coaching someone through a challenging issue, of I can appreciate that's a really tough time for you. So, what would help then for um uh uh next week? So that's that's that thing of someone's just dumped a problem. Do I sit there with that problem? I try and sort it out for them, which actually keeps them, might not be the kindest thing to do, because it's keeping them in victim mode, but acknowledging it with empathy and then passing it to them to think and answer through, and then you've got accountability, then I guess, which gives that edge.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think that's the um, I suppose that's the difference, isn't it? The empathy will name the experience that that person is going through, or you're seeing, or you're hearing, um, but the boundary will name what we call the expectation around that. So both are necessary, you know, there's the experience, but there's also the expectation of what is needed here to in order to keep that performance where you need it to be and to keep that person showing up. But I think um I think it also still comes back to the bit that you know there is the human first, don't forget there is a person under there. So, but the plus, but the work still matters. So again, if you know, we it's it is a fine line that we can tread sometimes. Um, because you know, you can call it uh the compassionate piece around, you know, I can see um take a moment, I can see this is having a big effect on you. Um, because it could be something that's happening outside of their work. Um, but when you're ready, let's step through what we can do to support you or what needs to happen next. So there's you're still setting the boundary that this is still gonna have to work, but you're not going just bloody get on with it, you know, or just do your bloody job. You know, you're not going down that route, you're still bringing them along with you. And I think that's the biggest difference is you know, the human first, but work still matters. And I think this is a fine line that managers, leaders have to navigate right now. Um, and I think more so than ever, because there is so much remote hybrid, not everybody's around all the time, and I think they have to be on their game to to know around what's going on and relating it back to, as we said, empathy names the experience, but boundary names the expectation, and then have the conversation around it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, love that. So listen, let's have a look at a uh I'd like to hear your thoughts on a third little scenario. And um because although a lot of the conversation we have on our Secrets of My Coach podcast looks at the wonderful world of management and leadership, because it ain't for the faint-hearted this decade, is it?

SPEAKER_01:

No, I definitely don't think it is. No, not right now either.

SPEAKER_00:

Not right now, but there are loads and loads of people, um, myself included, with whom don't formally line manage people, but um you have lots of conversations and interactions where you have to dial up these these um the these these particular skills. So I don't formally line manage people now, but there are certain scenarios what you would describe as, oh yeah, I need empathy, but I need that edge. So I've got a slightly different scenario to run by, which I'd love your thoughts on what could help someone prepare and deliver this type of conversation. So, what if Debs? Someone is saying one of the biggest challenges I have to perform in my role at the moment is I don't know what the vision is. The SLT aren't giving us the vision, um, my manager isn't being very clear on what the expectations are. It's impacting me and how secure and confident I feel in my ability to do well in my role. So, how would I, through all of that irritation and resentment and worry and sort of fear, what would be my way of balancing the empathy and the edge if I would need to have an upwards conversation with my manager to get some clarity? Because it is now starting to impact not only my ability to do what I do, but also I'm starting to look elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my god, that's such a good one. I love that. Again, why have they not set the vision already? Because people need to know where we're heading to, but anyway, that's another point. But if that is you that is having that feeling, then you've got to own that feeling. What is it, first of all, that is triggering within you? And I think also it's that ability to have that honest conversation with that individual around, you know, in order for us to be able to work really well and to understand where you want us to be going, it it would be super useful for me to understand, you know, what is your long-term plan, you know, what does that future look like? Um, you know, because if I can zoom out with you and look at the future state, that would be really helpful. And therefore, I can then have we can then have a conversation around what does that future state require, what does the present state require. So you're you're also so you're challenging it in a way that is building resilience to the impact, but also putting some perspective around it. And I think that bit of around asking the question, it would really help right now if we were to. Um, I uh it's important for me to understand where you're coming from, um and and I can work with you on this so I know what's important for you. So we I think we have to be smart as individuals in asking the right question. Seek to understand, to be understood, as we know with old good old Stephen Covey. Oh, yeah, ask first, which is good, yeah. Ask first, yeah. And I think that's where it comes, this comes into its own, is I will ask because I care. Um and rather than just give up on it, I'm gonna explore with you as to what we can do in order to push forward if we're linking it back to performance, for instance, or if we're wanting that vision set by our leader. Because and sometimes that's where you can say, because I'm I'm concerned, not we, because sometimes that can put a leader off if we're going, you know, the well, we think. I always from my uh would always own it for myself, you know. I believe, I feel, I understand, um, I am concerned. I would name the emotion that would sit underneath it because once you name the emotion, you can sort of you know um, I suppose work through that. You can navigate your way through it so that it reduces sometimes the intensity of what's the underlying messaging that's going on that you're crap and you haven't said it's a vision. Um, you can you can actually do it in a way that enables a a leader to hopefully, if they're open to it, to then share their vision or be clearer on it or create more clarity around it.

SPEAKER_00:

But do you know what, Dave? As I was listening to you talk, I was thinking there's also opportunity to set that leader up for success. So if you have got a feeling that your leader is a bit of a reflector, to sort of launch yourself upon that conversation saying, I'm wanting the five-year vision, then that might not be a very successful conversation because you might be catching that person on the hop, they might um react back rather than respond. Whereas if you drop a little note saying it'd be really useful for me if we could have five minutes or you know, half an hour later on. I just want to pick your brains from a longer term perspective. So it gives them some thinking time because if that person's got more of an introverted preference, then they might want a bit of thinking time before they speak. And if you're a bit more of an extroverted preference, you might need to chat it out in order to clarify your thinking. And that's sometimes I think where some of these feathers can be ruffled, where someone is one demanding an instant response over actually something quite big, but to set that person up maybe with a bit of thinking time, not to dodge it, but to give them time to sort of plan for it a bit.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think you're right, Lauren. I think it's that if if you have that relationship, and it and I think this is what it comes back to. You I think you've got leader in your title, manager in your title, director, head of, whatever your title is. There is an expectation on you to be able to shape the way, the path, show the way, um, lead, you know, lead with love, whatever all those other books that are out there around it, because that's what you're getting paid for. Um, yeah, and if you're if you haven't got that vision, then wow, how did you get in that job in the first place? Um, but also I think there is an element of being accountable for those that you are leading. And if you if you haven't set the example, that comes back to how emotionally intelligent you are, then somebody else will do it for you. But as a as an in somebody who is a colleague, having to ask for that, that's a real shame because then the relationship isn't there and the clarity hasn't been created. And then we get into that thing around what would happen if, and that's where we get we coach people or we support people in having that conversation before they have to have that conversation. So, and challenging their thinking around, well, what do you already know about your leader? You know, what might be going on for them right now? What how much understanding do you have of the pressure they may be on? Not making excuses for them. So, as you said, not avoiding the conversation, but just looking at it slightly from a different perspective. I think you talk about it in the perceptual positioning piece, right? And I think that as an employee, as a colleague, if you can play through the scenarios in each of those perceptual positions, I think that can help you structure a conversation with your boss.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yes, Debs. So to put the cherry on the cake, if you like a little bit of a framework or a bit of a theory, perceptual positioning, I understand it comes from the world of cognitive behavioural um counselling, and it is a way of I call it like a five-second scan and plan. So imagine there are four bubbles on the on the um on the bit of paper, you're in that middle bubble. So what's going on for you before you have that conversation? Actually, I'm feeling a bit irate. So let me take a breath and let me name my emotion as you said, and what is it I'm from this conversation? That's bubble number one. The next bubble is well, what's going on for them? So actually, that empathy bit of because you know, actually, my boss has only just survived the latest round of redundancies, they're probably reeling from all of that ongoing change. So, how do I be mindful of that when I'm asking for sort of a pain rising, when I'm asking for clarity? Um, the third bubble is the fly on the wall, that's sort of city TV. So, if I were watching me, how do I maintain my professional values and standards so I don't get caught in some rabbit hole or I don't sort of um you know get uh get overly one way or the other. And then the fourth bubble is upon reflection. So what's the what's the ongoing impact I want as a result of this conversation? And is a five-second scan and plan, me, you, keeping an eye on me, and what's my long-term plan can just help um get a bit of balance on the empathy and the edge, I guess, the salt and the caramel to make a uh to make a nice combination.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I just thought about that as you were you I just thought that would be really helpful to just pause, I think. And that's the other thing. If you're having to challenge upwards, I think you need to think, don't just go all guns blazing, because that's not going to do you any favours either. Um, but if you can just think and plan it and prep it a bit ahead and give yourself the best opportunity you can, um, you know, with that rationale that sits behind it. So it's not driven from an emotional um sense, uh it's it's actually coming from a place of care, collaboration, curiosity, and and celebrating what we can do and that confidence to be able to do it. And I think, and that's the thing we just need to think of around, you know, what what is it that I can do? You know, where where am I just reacting to something? Um, and instead of pausing to understand. So again, you know, we've got some listener reflection questions that you can ask of yourself. You know, where where have I been compassionate but not clear? You know, so you can ask, where have I been clear but not compassionate? So what's the story the other person might be carrying that I haven't even considered? So and they're they're really good reflective questions for you just to go, ah. So as we always know, the more we can prep something, set the tone around it, be clear on what the expectation is out of that conversation, then it can it can only go one way if if that's the right timing, you've got the right audience, you've done it at the right, you know, pace moment, not just as that person's about to go and present their, you know, the SLT members about to go and present to their board of stakeholders. You know, so you've got to have that emotional intelligence enough to look at it from uh outside and take into consideration that you know, not five minutes before they're about to go into a meeting, you're gonna be on a hide into nothing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Wow, I've loved this conversation. This has felt like a really good productive end to the fourth in our uh four-part focus, looking at energy refuel and reset. So um finishing well, so keeping strong for the long run. And the key takeaway from that is if it was it's not your first rodeo, how do you keep yourself energized when this is the other teeth transformation project that you might have been through? Um the second one looks at reclaiming motivation when the tank feels empty. So, how do you pick yourself up after an unexpected redundancy? What does it mean to be able to, well, you know, get out there again and um you know, if you're not feeling full of self-belief? So we had the fantastic Zoe Lewis sharing some great stuff there. We looked at psychological safety last week, which was um, you know, if if a job can be exhausting if you're constantly watching your back, when you know that others are watching your back and looking out for you, it just makes the job much easier, less energy, let less less energy sort of required. And so, what does that mean to create a um a real culture where everyone feels safe and um energized together? And then this one has been then um how to not get so caught up in that emotional bit that you get lost in that emotion, and hopefully, what's come from this is that opportunity for some practical and some uh strategic ways of being able to balance that empathy and the edge. So, Debs, my my share the secret for this, and I'd love to hear your call to action. So, my share the secret would be those three examples we gave.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So, where a team member is starting to um overly dominate maybe the influence they have on a culture, particularly around timekeeping attendance, where there might be a scenario of a manager and it comes from a good place, but they're getting so lost in the empathy bit that actually work's not happening and it's it's building stress, or you want to have a conversation with someone about um leading with a bit more vision or giving them some feedback. So, if any of those three scenarios or similar ones, the ones that you've heard a mate say, This is what's going on for me at the moment, get them to listen to this to know they're not the only one. These are things that are happening all over the world of work, which is why we need humans to be able to lead in together and handle these one-offs and these emotional sort of aspects. So, kind through all of those sort of tips and tricks, Debs, what would be your call to action so we can coach ourselves forward in the week ahead?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my god, I love it. I think um my call to action would be to really consider that leading with heart and empathy isn't about making work easier, I think it's about making it more human, so that human first, so performance becomes sustainable. So, my call to action would be I suppose some things to ask of yourself, and I've written some bits down, so there's a couple of questions you'd reflect on for yourself. Um, the last, so for instance, I'd ask, I'd love you to answer these questions. The last time I felt truly understood was when, da da da, and it made me feel da da da. So that ability to make sure that I I recognize when it's working and when it's not, because that can really help. What does another question I'd get you to ask yourself if you're listening to this is what does leading with heart look like for me in real behaviours? So rather than just have it playing out in your head, actually, what's the reality you know that it's gonna bring? Um, and then what boundary or expectations do I need to hold with more clarity and kindness? Because as we said, you know, it's that ability to be kind, have clarity, have that edge, but also have that accountability that goes with it. So, yeah, there would be a couple of things. The edge part is the empathy plus accountability, I think. So just reflect on it for yourself. That would be my call to action. Oh, love that, Debs.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know, I think there could be a number of different hats we have on when we're reviewing that, whether it's in a partner role, whether it's in a friend role or a parent role. That um yeah, not just in the sort of the parts of the of life that we're paid for, the unpaid moments as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, definitely. And how we can be better at that. Yeah, it's awareness, isn't it, Laura? It's just awareness of self starts with, but also awareness of the impact that you can have, and but also reading the room with others, yeah. What could be going on for them? Yeah, do you even know? Have you even got a clue? And if you haven't, I always say, Oh, okay, I need to maybe understand a little bit about what's on their, you know, what's on their plate right now, you know, what challenges they've got, how can I support? I'm not taking it off of them, but how can I help them in that moment in time?

SPEAKER_00:

Beautiful. So this has been the final in our four-part focus energy refuel reset, which means Debs, new meetings, shiny, shiny, shiny new toy, shiny new toy. And the point of recording is gonna be December. So we've got three parts. We're going for the triple for um next month ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

The power of three, Laura, you love three.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, we love it. Yeah, love, love, love it. Um, and the this is gonna be all about slowing down to go faster. We're gonna take you through some processing and some thinking tools that can help keep centred if everything is whirling around. Taking a pause, not with guilt, but with the uh strategic intention to uh uh be fresher and brighter as a result of taking that moment of pause. And we're gonna do a renew new year, your year in review. So we'll do a live get reviewing with us. So um really looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_01:

So me too. Can't believe it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I can't believe it. Can't believe we're here with the end of this is now over five years we've been riding this carousella content.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, and look how it's shifted and changed in five years, Law. Wow, who would have known? Who would have known?

SPEAKER_00:

Who would have known? So um I think we need to say a little thank you to Erefon at this point in time for making us sound so great. And when um Adam and James, we first started off with Adam and James, Adam said it's creating bubble gum for the ears. And um boy have they gone gone and done that. So thank you, James, for uh keeping us sounding great. And uh content is all ours, so uh any negative feedback that's for us. But we know that from an aerophonic point of view, you always make us sound fantastic. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Huge thank you. Well, have a good week as well, Law, won't you?

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you, devs.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, love you lots.

SPEAKER_00:

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