282. Anatomy of Confident Presence

Confidence isn’t about being louder, bolder or more polished. It’s about being so rooted in who you are that your presence speaks before you do.

As Lau works in Montreal for the week, in this episode Debs is joined by Karl for a rich and honest conversation about what confidence really looks like. Beyond performance, perfection or simply looking the part. Together, they explore the difference between confidence that is performative and confidence that is deeply rooted in identity, self-belief and presence.

Building on the theme of powerful presence, Debs and Karl unpack why presence is not about volume, charisma or job title, but about the feeling you create in a room and the impact you leave behind. Drawing on Karl’s experience as both a former performer and coach, they reflect on the moments when confidence is most powerfully felt -  not when everything is polished, but when we are fully present, real and connected.

At the heart of the episode is a beautiful framework: The Anatomy of Confidence. Together they explore the layers that help confidence come alive: from congruence, ownership and nervous system safety, through to freedom from perfection, identity, direction, non-comparison, courage and energy. The conversation reminds us that confidence is not something we 'put on' but something we build from the inside out.

This episode is a thoughtful invitation to stop chasing approval, stop comparing yourself to others, and start becoming more available to yourself. Warm, reflective and full of practical wisdom, it’s a powerful listen for anyone wanting to show up with greater self-trust, calm and authentic presence.

Transcript

Welcome And Series Context

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Devs. Laura? That's not you. Well, right with me.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Carl Ars, we're joined by Carl today. That was nice. Um, Laura, just in case anybody's wondering where Laura is, she's absolutely up to her neck in delivery, her best place. She loves it to bits, and she's got a load on this week. So we sort of thought, let her be present, let her be powerful, let her do what she does best. And I thought I'd invite Carl to come and join us to talk about our second in our four-part series around powerful presence, which is what we were talking about last week. Um, and I think we're just going to build on a bit of that because you know, when we do talk about presence, we're not talking about the one that's allowed or performative, um, but the kind that people feel. And Carl, I'll get Carl to give you a bit of an intro in a minute because I'm actually going to tap into his experience as a performer and also his experience now as a coach and part of the Wishfish team. Um, so we can really unpick what it means and what it takes to have powerful presence and actually what we might need to consider in order to be present whenever we chose to show up. Because, as like we said last time, um, you know, are you someone who lights the room up as you walk in or as you walk out? So, on that note, while you're thinking about it, Carl, hello. Tell us a little bit about what you've been up to since we last spoke.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Hello, hello. I'm actually trying to think back to when I joined the last episode of Sigasura Coach, and I cannot pull the date uh from me. So I feel like it's been quite a while.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Quite a while, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Um, what's been going on? Um, I'm still doing me. Good. I love that. Still doing you. Still doing me. Um, still, you know, fun, friendly, and fab and all of that. Um, yeah, been really interesting. The world, I think the world of work at the moment is an incredibly interesting place. And I think, you know, we we know this as Wishfish. The the space that we're stepping into has slightly evolved um over time as well. You know, we're now not only bringing what we know through our coaching expertise, but also through our, you know, individual skills and coming in at that kind of consultancy angle, which is really, really incredible. Um, yeah. And it's so much fun to, I suppose, work with some of those global organizations that we're working with to, you know, get them ready for whatever comes their way and support them in, you know, either program learning or you know, individual coaching. So it's yeah, it's it's been fab, been busy.

What Powerful Presence Is Not

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah. And I suppose when you're thinking about that, you know, what does it why does it matter more now than ever? I think as you've been so saying, you know, the world is changing, how people are being is changing. Um, and I think that presence becomes your proper currency, as I like to call it, not necessarily your job title, not how loud you are, not how much you say, but how you make people feel when you show up. Um, and I suppose, like I did with Laura, we had a couple of questions that I was asking her last time. So um, I'm gonna ask you a similar well, simple one of the similar questions. So, just as a start of a 10, Carl, when you hear the phrase powerful presence, what does that mean to you and what does it not mean? So, where do you want to start?

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Oh, okay, what does it mean and what does it not mean? Um I think it's really interesting because for me, I've I've obviously worn, I've worn many different hats over my professional working, working life. Um, but I think the thing that I love and the thing that I really see at the moment is that presence is um presence is a result of something, right? Presence is not the the doing, it's not the I must do X to achieve presence. It's um it comes from a place of feeling. And I think when I think about what it's not, I sometimes like to go back to, you know, when I was a performer and when I put that hat on for a moment, and when I think about powerful presence, there's another word that kind of springs to mind before that. And that word for me is confidence.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

So if we're thinking about actually, in order for me to be in the room, have presence, show up as the best version of me, own the space that I'm in, that comes from the feeling of confidence, and then the presence follows. Um, what I don't think about, I don't think about volume, that doesn't come to mind. It's not the loudest person in the room. Um charisma also doesn't come to mind. You can be incredibly charismatic, um, but that doesn't always, I think, translate into presence. And then, like I said earlier, you know, you're not being the loudest person in the room, and I mean that more in a way of sorry, as I move back, you know when someone walks into a room and they kind of hit you with just this wall of energy, and I think it's one of those where you know the energy is loud and the presence almost it's too impactful that it actually kind of turns people off.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

So that's why that's what I think it's not.

Confidence As The Source Of Presence

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, okay. So like that. So, what do you think it is then? You mentioned the word confidence, and I know we hear this a lot, right? When we're you know running some of the speaker stagecraft workshops, or you know, Laura's running some of the train the trainer workshops that she does, and that word comes up again and again and again. So let me ask you a question. Do you think we're born confident?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

No, I'm gonna I'm this is obviously this these are my views, these are my personal views. But um, no, I don't believe we are born confident. Um, I believe it's a skill that um it evolves, it adapts, um, it has highs, it has lows, it can be knocked, it can be flying. It's it's a skill, it's an incredibly emotionally intelligent skill, is where confidence sits for me. And it's funny because I think I think about a moment much earlier in my life when I was a performer, and you know, spending over a decade in theatre and dance, you know, you would think on paper, well, that world looks like confidence, right? You know, you're on stage, you're visible, you're literally being watched, you know, every every second, whether you're in the rehearsal studio, whether you're on stage, all eyes are on you. Um, but it's interesting because what people don't see is how much of that world um is actually about getting it right. And it's about, you know, hitting the mark or saying your lines properly or being what's expected of you. And it's interesting. I think I remember a shift, and don't get me wrong, you know, it wasn't overnight. Um, it was very subtle. Um, where I began to realize that the performances that really landed um were the ones that people felt. It was the the ability to create a space where what I was doing and my confidence in doing what I was doing created a presence that sparked a feeling in someone else. Um and it's always interesting because those ones where, you know, we you do a beautiful, you know, duet and you then have responses from the audience going, Oh my god, you brought this up for me, or you reminded me of this, or you know, you've got people coming up to you in tears, which is wonderful because what you've done is you've sparked something in them. And it's interesting because they're not always the ones that were technically perfect.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Right. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Okay. It's it's the ones where it's really weird. It's the ones where I um I was actually there. It wasn't my character, it wasn't my so you were in um yes, you're you know, you're present, you're connected, um, you're not performing presence and confidence, but allowing yourself to be seen. Um and I mean, you know, don't get me wrong, it's quite confronting when it's put like that. Because if you go, my God, well, not performing that confidence and showing up in a way that I believe the room wants, if I'm actually allowing parts of myself to be seen, um there's an element of, well, I might have to just let go of a little bit of control here. But if I let me fast forward because in the world that I'm in now, coaching, learning and development, working with global organizations, um, I don't know about you, Debs, but I'm seeing the same thing everywhere where people chase confidence almost like it's something you acquire. Yeah, that's true. You know, like it's a skill set or it's a toolkit or it's something that you switch on before a big moment. Um and if I'm really honest, um, a lot of what we call confidence is just really well-practiced performance.

Identity Over Approval And Comparison

SPEAKER_02 10:01

That's a good point, isn't it? Yeah, I suppose so. Because yeah, and I suppose the more that you do it, the more you get good at it, and the better you get at it, therefore the more you want to do it, the more confident you get because you've practiced it over time. And before before you know it, it becomes part of who you are, it becomes congruent with you, and you own it in a way that enables people to, as you said, feel it as they're they're coming on to that. So, yeah, it's really interesting when you talk about that because sometimes you do feel it, and I that's why I love the world of theatre and performance, all of that creative stuff. You can feel a sculpture, you can feel a painting just to be immersed in it, and that's the power of presence, right? And the energy it creates within you. Um, and I suppose, you know, when we think about being congruent with who we are, owning who we are, we have to consider, I suppose, what's going on with our bodies, right? So, in your experience, what types of things we must we, should we have a thought about, you know, be aware of?

Courage Fear And Energy In The Room

SPEAKER_01 11:07

So, well, I love that you've brought in that element of um like 4D. How do we um how do we create presence through confidence in 4D? Um and I think there's there's almost two ways I can look at this. I think it's um something that I know personally well. Um I think as a gay man, there's been moments in my life where confidence looks like fitting in. Um, but it isn't that. It's it's something that's um what I didn't know at the time was you know a very emotionally intelligent skill to have where you're able to read the room. Assess what sort of energy does this room need from me? What do um what do I need to bring to this room? Um, where can I, like you say, where can I light this space up? Um and there's an element of adjusting that happens um and self-management of how you come across. And again, looks like confidence. Um and it felt like presence, you know, you you make that mark. Um but I think if I was to flip it and look at this through our coaching lens, um, you know, we see this on Speaker Stagecraft, where it's very, very clear that actually a lot of showing up with presence, owning your space, being in that um being in that space of control and going, I've absolutely got this, is just well-practised performance. Um and I've started to see confidence and presence very differently. It's not, it's it's not not as something you perform, but as something that happens when you um, God, yeah, when you stop abandoning yourself in the moment, or you stop being your own worst critic, or you know, you you stop pulling yourself down. It's um, you know, it's it's almost there's so many, there's so many layers. It's almost like um it's almost like an anatomy, right? Um, where you have each of these individual layers that allow elements of structure and the components that allow confidence to really shine through. And I mean, hey, if you know within yourself that feeling of I know what I bring, um, you know, we always say no one is you and that is your power.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yeah, so yeah, there's structure to it. It's um there's an anatomy to this, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah, and I I think, you know, as we sort of explore the anatomy of what that could look like, yeah, we've mentioned already, you know, you have to have a be true to yourself so that congruent with who you are and belief in you and all of that, and owning your space, as you said, lighting it up, adjusting, um, being able to read the room, feel the energy and the vibe, and adapt accordingly. And I suppose that takes a nerve really to be able to trust yourself, to be able to read that room and then be properly present in it, um, and people remember it. So, what's going on there within our own bodies and our nervous system?

The Confidence Acronym And Call To Action

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Well, it's so interesting because I love that you've um when I talk about this element of anatomy um and the anatomy of confidence. Funnily enough, the only word that I could find that really landed was um was confidence. You know, the C-O-N-F-I-D-E-N-C-E. There is no other word that can encapsulate the anatomy of confidence, much like the word confidence, right? That's true, yeah. And you mentioned it there. So obviously the first thing is congruence. Um, who I am is how I show up. Um, you know, there's no mask, there's no split. Um, it's just owning who you are in that moment. And it's a really vulnerable but also incredibly powerful space to be because what we're saying is there is confidence, is when there's no gap between you and your behavior. You are who you are, and you have to stand in that power. And it leads me beautifully into our second letter of O, which is that ownership where we have to take responsibility for ourselves. This is my voice, this is my space. Yeah, these are my choices. Um, no one can give you confidence. Um, you have to decide to stand in it and feel it for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

That's interesting, is it? Because I think our I suppose then managing our nerves, because that's the big thing that comes through, isn't it? When people you know say to them about being powerfully present, some people go, I don't know if I can, and their nerves start coming through. So I suppose it's how we regulate our nervous system to be able to make sure that we have that freedom to be able to perform in a way that's congruent with who we are and owning our space. So you can move up and down that, right? Because there's a couple of things that have to be present, because there's nothing better than freedom when you're delivering something or you're being part of a team discussion or part of a group. Not freedom to the point where you create havoc and chaos, but because you've been aware of it, there is a freedom to explore, to navigate, to practice, to give it a go, which I think is really important for people to you know think about who are they in that moment and you know what is it about them that enables them to show up in that space? So should we take a pause and explore what else is important? So, Carl, we have been talking about confidence, it's not how the loudest in the room, it's not the talent, you know, most talented, and it's not the perfectionism part of it either. Because, as you said, sometimes the best performances in inverted commerce or the best feeling or vibe or presence is when you're not really thinking about it, it may not always be scripted, but you've connected with it, and I think that's really important. And how much of that comes from knowing, I suppose, who you are, your identity as an individual, but also um the direction you're moving in. How important is that?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

For me, I always say confidence is anchored in identity, not approval. Okay, um, you know, if we're thinking more about anchored in identity, not approval.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

The clue here, Debs, is uh self-belief. Um, yes. If we're looking for approval, what we're probably looking for is other belief. Um what happens is that it's it takes a it takes away from having confidence in our own identity, knowing who you are and trusting what you bring. Um it almost kind of, I suppose, um that self-belief element inspires more of a purpose. Um you know, I uh I know what I'm here to do. Um but focusing on who I am, trusting myself, my identity, what I can bring beats comparison every, you know, every day. Um and it's that direct, it's the direct the direction, it's your purpose to go. This is the direction that I'm heading in. And knowing that, you know, that clarity of I know what I'm here to do. And I don't need to compare myself to others because I'm so, you know, I'm so in self-approval, self-belief, um, that I know my direction, I know where I'm heading.

Closing Thanks And Listener Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 19:09

And that's really interesting because you see that all the time, some, you know, well, most of the time, where people, as you said, think they're chasing something. Um, but I, you know, certainly from my perspective, when I've been completely in it and absolutely in the now, fully present myself in whatever it is I'm doing, it is super powerful when you recognize that oh, I haven't had to think about what I'm gonna say. It's just come out. It's the expression, if you like, has come from a place of truth and honesty and kindness and care, which I know are super important. But it's um, I love the fact you're talking about the non-comparison bit as well. Because how often do you see people compare themselves with others?

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Oh, I mean, you know, the world of work can be a bit of a scary place at times, right? You know, you're you're you're looking to go, am I am I doing enough? Am I you know, is is what I'm producing is it good? Um, you know, it's it's weirdly enough seeking the approval to go, is what I'm doing good enough?

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

And you know, some of the some of more of that executive coaching is about getting people to sit in that space to go, you are the expert at what you do.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

You know, no one knows this job like you do. So when you're having those conversations, it's not about um it's not about them shaking off, I suppose, their inner critic. It's actually about shifting that lens and going, you've got to sit in what you know. And the one thing I've really learned, and it's a very bold move, but I think it's really powerful, is I don't dilute myself, you know? Yeah, yes. Um, it's no shrinking, there's no posturing or pretending to be someone who I'm not. Um I know what I bring. So then if comparison is the fastest ways way to lose yourself, I've got to then turn on that non-comparison mindset.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Yeah, and it's it's hard to do that. And I think again, this is what it comes back to. You know, people always say, you know, how do you do that when you're not gonna compare yourself with somebody else? Because we all do it, you know, or they they've done that better than I would have done. Oh my god, they're amazing. All of that doubt gets whizzing around in our heads, but I think it does come from a place of, as you said, not really understanding what you bring and knowing your uniqueness is the bit that actually makes you stand out. And I know you know, the way that you have the courage to act as you are and be you now it'll turn some people on, it'll turn some people off. Not everybody loves that, but I think. Going back to what you said, it's the awareness of the impact that you're going to be having. And I think it always comes back to impact when you say, Well, that wasn't my intent. Yeah, but you still did it. So, what was your what was the impact of that? And I think that a bit to have the courage to be the you know true to who you are, act in the way that's the right way to nurture and could be compassionate and all those lovely things that we know work for people. But again, that takes some energy, doesn't it, to be able to conjure that up. Talk to me about energy.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Well, I love that you've just brought in that element of courage. Um, because they almost go, they almost kind of go hand in hand with each other. Um it's having that courage to kind of do the thing that you want to do, even though it feels a little bit uncomfortable. Um and there's an element of visibility over safety, I suppose. Um, you know, when we when we're in the room and we are doing, you know, our workshops and we're encouraging people to step into that space of uncomfortability. Um, you know, I think there's an element of people that go, Well, oh well, if I'm confident, there's no fear.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

That's just true. It's just, it's just not true. Like, confidence isn't the absence of fear. Confidence is being able to move with it. To be just because someone comes up and shows up as confidence doesn't mean they're not fearful. They've learned how to move with the fear, how to take the fear and go, do you know what? I've got this, my identity, I know myself, I'm ready to go. And the energy, which ultimately is then the presence that comes out, right? Yeah. Um, it's like the cherry on top of the confidence cake, where now that we've layered, I suppose, you know, all what we've been talking about, the presence piece is the energy. Where is attention going? You know, I love this saying, and we use it where attention goes, energy flows. Um that's true. And people feel this, you know, it's it's the confidence is felt before it's understood. Um and that's looking at it from that kind of you know, opposite uh opposite lens. You know, you can feel someone's confidence before understanding where they've got it from or potentially seeing below the surface and knowing how much performance prep did they put in to achieve that. Um how are they self-talking? You know, we're very good at looking at something and going, oh my god, they're so confident. Um we don't know the fears that are potentially being pushed down. We don't know the self-belief work that's going on under the surface.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

The beauty of confidence is that people will see your energy and your presence and think you've got it. And it's it's an incredible thing. When you when you find it, you're like, oh my god, I've been doing life, yeah, I've been doing life all wrong this entire time, you know. Um confidence is always felt before it's understood.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

So, Carl, as we said, we have actually talked through the anatomy of confidence, and you know what? I've just realized that actually what we've been speaking about, um very clever Karlov, was we've actually come up with the word confidence. So when we look at it, congruence, ownership, nervous system safety, freedom from perfection, identity, that's self-belief, direction, knowing your purpose, expression, non-comparison, courage, and energy. They they actually spell the word confidence. So, how do we bottle that for people? Um, so that you know, people are being those things, not doing those things. Because the more we are aligned with who we are, the more truth shows up and the more people connect with us better. So tell me, what would be your call to action for our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Do you know what? Just on that, as you've said, it's more about the being rather than the doing. Because if if we if we come at this from a space of ah, if I do one, two, three, I'll achieve X, Y, Z.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Um you might still achieve it. Well, yes, but you might have left something behind.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, the catch here is um, I suppose a question around those who go, Well, I do this and and doing this makes me confident. And if we're focusing on the doing, I think it's um it's what if confidence isn't about becoming more impressive, more charismatic, more well structured in a meeting, more uh directive in my management style. What if it's not about the doing? What if it is about the being? So being more congruent with who you are, um more grounded with knowing your strengths and really thriving in that space of yeah, I can do this because this is what I bring to the party. Um and I think there's being the being element is like being more available to yourself. Nice rather than being more available to other people, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Know thyself. I think that's Aristotle said that way back when, and then you're a thing or two. Laura would be dead impressed that we bought in the old guard, the stoics. I think it was with the stoics, I've no idea, but anyway, Laura, you're correct as I'm sure. But um, so you're right, it is about being and having that presence. You're right, and that is in its turn powerful. Um, so if there's one thing somebody could do differently, what would they could they give it a go, think about, try? What would you suggest?

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Go, do you know what? I'm I'm just gonna strip it back and just be really real, I think, because there's no way of sugarcoating it. Um, be nicer to yourself, yes. Like just be nicer. Do you know what I mean? Just be kind to yourself, just yeah, you know, not funny enough, me about to say it, not every day is gonna be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

No, it's not about perfection, is it?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Exactly. Yeah, so just stop being your own worst critic. Yeah, and yeah, just be kind to yourself because my god, if if there's one thing that that confidence thrives off is kindness, right? Absolutely, yeah, definitely. If I'm speaking kind about myself, um guess what? I'm gonna feel really good about myself. I'm gonna feel great in the skin that I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

And that is the skin you've been given, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Well, yes, make the most of it. Um you know, maybe I'll take a nod, like maybe nip or tuck here and there, but you know, it's the skin that I have been given.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

It's the skin I was being, so I'll just embrace it.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, enhancement. It's only enhancement.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

There's maybe a few enhancements, but not much.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

But you know, even saying that, that's external, it's external, it's nothing internal. It's the doing. If I was to you know, lift this and pull that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

You're doing something rather than the being, yeah. That's what I mean. We it's such a thing, isn't it? It's such a fine line, and I think, but the more awareness we bring to it, and I suppose that would be my share the secret. Um, so I think the awareness of how you are being, I think is is going to be key to your presence. And and it's not about being perfect, as we said, it's not about being right, the loudest, it's not about the job title, it's about the vibe you're creating, the energy you're giving out. Um, because you you know, you will either pull people towards you or dispel them away from you, and and that's within us. Nobody else can make that apart from us. So we we have a choice in that to you know be kinder to ourselves but also to others because you're naturally then it's you know, it's what's the word I'm looking at? Like naturally it's explode that strength out, or something like that. So I think that would be my share. The energy bit, yes, that would be my share the secret. I think if anybody you feel is doing things to you know to try and be more confident, flip it, get them to listen to this and get them to really flip that around to go, how do you be first? Um, and then you will have and then you will do whatever it is you need to be doing to enable that to show. But I think the being bit, if somebody is lacking in in their self-belief, not sure of where they're at, what's really important for them, they're not, if you like, regulating how they are feeling in that moment and having the freedom to explore and just you know put themselves out there, themselves. Um, I know we all wear a bit of a mask at times because we you know can't be all crazy people all of the time um and show up as we want to, but I think there's an element of managing ourselves better and believing in ourselves, which is the key one to it. So, yeah, anybody out there that's just think, oh, how do I get powerful presents? Then I would suggest having a think about the anatomy of confidence that we've just shared with you, um, which would be super useful for anybody, really. I've learned a lot today. Um, and I yeah, and I you're right, I love that we feel we feel it before we understand it, and I think that's super important. So, so Carlos, thank you so much um for stepping in for law as she's like traveling around the world doing her thing. Um, so I just want to say a massive thank you for sharing your thoughts, sharing with us the anatomy of competence that you came up with, which I think it really is a good thing to think about because you know, when it happens, you're right. I've seen people do trust you, people do listen to you, and people do feel you. And I think that's the most powerful position we can have to make sure it's the right impact, um, you know, not the wrong one. So I want to say a massive thank you for giving us your time and um yeah, look forward to seeing you on one of our other podcasts soon.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Thank you so much. Thank you very much for having me. It's been uh it's been fun sitting in Laura's chair for a moment, but um, I'd sure I shall hand it back over to her.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

So you forgot the red lipstick, so we know it's obviously not Laura sitting there. Damn. I look forward to seeing you again very soon. But uh thanks, Carlos.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Thank you.

unknown 32:38

Love you.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

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