284. Team Performance Under Pressure

In this third episode in our miniseries looking at Powerful Presence we are thrilled to be joined by performance coach Tony McAllister who unusually, was the coach for both the Olympic and Paralympic Skiing Teams.   He shares his perspective and advice for enabling a team to perform under pressure. Mindset, preparation and a one-team attitude. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Welcome back to Speaker from a Coach. And now as part of our series that we've been doing on powerful presents, today we're driving into something I think so many people can struggle with, and that is how do you stay calm, how do you stay present and perform well when the pressure is on? Because I think anyone can really show up confidently when life feels comfortable. But what about when the stakes are high, the nerves are kicking in, or the pressure starts building? What do we do then? So to help us unpack that, we're joined by the brilliant Tony McAllister, who has spent over 20 years coaching elite performers across Olympic and Paralympic sport with Team GB and Team USA. So, Tony, welcome. It's so lovely to have you with us. Tell us a bit more about what you do and where you are and how you've ended up where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Well, thanks, Deb, for that lovely intro. First of all, it's an absolute treat to be here. Um, really looking forward to this discussion. I could literally talk about this stuff for days, a little passion of mine. Yes, I do take um uh almost a decade with Team GB and then uh a decade after that with Team USA, both in the Olympic and the Paralympic arenas uh around the sport of outline skiing. And I had lots of different roles within those um two organizations over the 20 years. So assistant technical skills coach, uh lead coach, head coach, associate director, programme directors, and even spent a year working as an equipment service person to really deeply understand what is such a massive element of performance in our kind of scale. And one of those things, um, kind of taking those uh skills and lived experiences. So when COVID hit, uh when we were all sort of figuring that out, like many I started to sort of reflect and think about the future. Uh started having conversations with family, friends, and my wider network about utilising my skills and lived experience within environments outside developing skiing and maybe outside sport as well. And I had some great support from people who who believed in me and backed me, and I kind of made a soft entry um doing just that with alongside my work with uh Team USA at the time. Um and then I sort of planned to transition away from skiing after the our most recent uh Winter Paralympics in 2026. But I had a bit of massive change in my personal circumstances in 2023 and over a very short period of time, and that kind of uh led me to choose to resign my position with Team USA and for the first time in 20 years, I was home full time after the road for about 250 to 280 days a year. So it was a big change.

SPEAKER_04 2:49

Yeah, that is a big change.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, but since then I've been growing my own own consultancy focusing Y term, uh building performance on purpose.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Um and I've been fortunate to work with a really wide range of uh sectors, including banking, finance, legal industry, insurance, SMEs, healthcare, manufacturing, engineering, everything. And even a little bit of sport in the next two, which is you haven't lost that little bit of sport. No, that's what I really uh realized when I stepped away from sport how as we are kind of often come to these conclusions that once we don't have something, we we actually realise maybe there's more value in it than we once thought. And always we don't have access much. So that was a real um sort of learning moment for me. So it's been really part my side to keep involved in sport um as much as possible. In a nutshell, I guess I see what I do now is helping people, individual teams, organizations raise their game an importantly, and or maybe evolve or their game to better achieve strategical crucially in a way that brings a little bit more joy to everybody in the process.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Yeah, the fun element, isn't it? Yeah, the fun element. I love the fact it's linked to purpose. Um, and I also love the fact that you link your work to values and then the behaviours that drive those values and the impact that it can have. And we were talking about this um on one of the earlier pods as well, around actually it might look easy when I suppose those alpine skiers get out there and do their thing, but I think people sometimes forget the amount of time and preparation and practice that has gone into that is isn't is huge. Um, and celebrating the success of the milestones along the way, isn't it? So I think that's what's really important. So let me ask you this question if that's all right, Tony. Um, in your experience, because you've had a vast amount of experience working with very you know different people, what enables people to be what we're terming poised for performance and what goes into that readiness?

SPEAKER_01 4:55

I mean, you're absolutely right there as well to say that when we see these elite performances from athletes or sports people, what we're seeing is kind of uh the spectators, if you like, those being exposed to the performance is the very, very tip of the iceberg. You don't see everything that happens behind the curtain. And that's where the magic really happens. Yeah. And it's not it's a great question, but it's a really complex question that you're asking.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

I know we always like layered questions.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

But here's maybe an interesting starting point to consider.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Um so so athletes, full-time athletes, spend, I'd say, in the region of 80 to 90% of the time preparing to perform, to be best for performance. Yeah. And maybe 10 to 20% of the time actually competing or performing.

unknown 5:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Some perhaps maybe in higher than 90% of maybe if their chosen event is particularly short, say let's say 100 meter sprint, guess 10 seconds on average, give or take for male and female times. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

So full-time elite athletes, as maybe as well as some other professions, maybe some parts of the military come to mind, they have the luxury of a system and or a culture that supports focusing on those individual elements of performance. And importantly, the time and the expert support teams to develop and practice those behaviors to develop the skills necessary to achieve those multiple little, you know, 0.1% gains over every little sector of performance to elevate the wider performance.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Take that in contrast to what most of us do in our professional lives, those that are not elite full-time athletes, which is definitely myself.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Yeah, and me too.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

We probably spend about we sp it's it's it's flipped. We spend about 90% of our time performing. So like doing our job.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

And 10% of our time maybe preparing if we're lucky.

unknown 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yes. There's still the expectation that after that initial sort of heavy front-loaded preparation, which is school, maybe university or appenacip, or maybe a specific uh professional complication, we're sort of after we've done that, we're somehow like just sort of expected to be able to figure out somehow how to best perform or indeed raise our performance in what for many of us these days is a really volatile and unpredictable environment. Maybe a few sort of sprinkled CPD days thrown in here and there when sort of finance or or time permits. But this is the culture and the mindset that has evolved and exists and is adopted by many sectors for multiple reasons, of course.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

But what do we do with that? So you can maybe say, well, that's the bad news. They do convince that there are their habits, behaviors, skills, and lessons that we can take from the world of elite sport that we can utilize to be prepared or better prepared to deliver our best performance. And the individuals and organizations that are doing that have recognized that. So investing in support, investing in training for their people performance are those, in my opinion, that are gonna not just survive, but hopefully thrive and evolve, particularly when things are so challenging now.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

Yeah. I I just think that's yeah, you're so right. And that's the biggest thing that certainly in the work that we do as well as yourself now is that when I haven't got time to plan or I haven't got time to get good at it, I'm just learning as I go. And I said, and I suppose one of the things is like what have you noticed in relation to, I suppose, that driver motivation, you know, what is you know, is there or was there a common trait that you repeatedly saw in the very best athletes that you worked with compared to your world of work? How much of that was driven by them wanting to be the best or perform? Because people in the world of work also want to be the best and perform at their best. So was there a common trait you repeatedly saw in elite athletes?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Absolutely. And I I had a bit of a self-indulgent little project as well. I did on the side of a case study. And I had the opportunity to try and, through my sort of network, speak to not just athletes, but what we'd call elite performers.

SPEAKER_04 9:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

So those from um special forces within the UK military, fighter pilots, red arrow pilots, um, news anchors, and of course athletes.

SPEAKER_05 9:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

And I was asking them, what do you feel are the you know, these are people who who operate day in, day out in what we would class as elite environments. Yes. Trying to identify those common threads of either behaviors or skills or mindset perhaps that ran through all of those. And there was there was many different ones that emerged. But the biggest rocks in the bucket were so there's this this term elite is quite can be quite off-putting, can be quite kind of elitist, it can be quite scary, like, well, that's not me, I'm not elite, that's reserved for the 0.1% of performers and whatever in.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

So that's why you don't need to think about it. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so it's not a good thing that came around. Yeah, it does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

It really is. So just doing the basics really, really well.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Yeah, okay. That is so when you put it like that, but it's very simple. But I suppose saying that, high performance also must come down to people feeling fully present in the moment as well, rather than just get distracted by that pressure or the expectation or the outcome that they're supposed to deliver. So, how how does that sort of tie in with that, especially when we're thinking about um, you know, what does that being present actually look like? Because they have to be right in it, don't they? To be able to execute the fundamentals really, really well without even thinking about it. Would that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah, absolutely. It's so simple and to say much more complex to actually execute. And that's why there's so much training and there's so much like expert support for each individual element performance. That's a luxury you have as an elite athlete, which we don't have in our profess or not in most people's professional environments. So again, so how do we score down in that? So again, if you're talking about those are what you outlined there were the variables that try to attack the ability to be able to perform those uh basics, those fundamentals under those under different environments. So pressure, for example.

Pressure As Privilege And Stress

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Yeah, pressure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Pressure is an is an interesting one, and I think we need to kind of understand what pressure is, first of all, and what it means for us, because it can mean different things to different people. And I think there was um a great quote from Billy Jean King, tennis player, and it's actually at the entrance to the Arthur Ashton stadium where the US Open is played in this in the players' tunnel. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 13:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

So when they come out of the tunnel, there's a little plaque that says pressure is a privilege.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Oh, okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Okay. And that and that was a quote that she actually um just kind of rolled off her tongue when she was uh um as we're talking to Lindsay Davenport back in the day, when she was questioning her ability more than it's like what it means is all the reason it's a privilege is because the outcome means something to you. One way or another, whether it is winning a fair game or whether it's getting a deal across the line or maintaining a standard of service or whatever it may be. So the reason we feel pressed is because we're we are involved, we're sort of involved in the outcome, but it means that it means something, there's value to us there. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

And we've got to understand that, okay, it can be it could be a monetary thing for us, it could be a feeling thing, okay. If I if I don't meet my level of performance, then the business fails, and there's there's other people job as well. I don't want that to happen. So I'll I feel a lot of pressure to maintain the business, maintain our performance through it. Okay. And there's a little side point there again, we've got to understand that the levels of perfect um pressure are also it's up to perception of the individual. Okay. You could say to somebody, say maybe an elite special forces operator in contact, feeling pressure nine out of ten that they're getting shot at trying to do their job. Yeah. So that nine out of ten could also be experienced by a teenager sitting down to do their A-level exams. True.

unknown 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

So it's not a battle against ourselves and understanding what pressure is. Pressure is good at helping us acutely focus on what is important in that situation. But when it tips over that edge into stress, that's where it becomes generally a negative situation. We lose that presence of mind, yeah. We slip into um a different part of our nervous system that I which um kind of we've all probably been familiar with uh flight or fight.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Freeze, yeah. Right. Like it's kind of worse of either making a good decision or a bad decision. What's worse is not making any decisions in the movement.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Exactly. Just stand in there.

unknown 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

So as elite athletes or performers, we have um certain mechanisms and skills and strategies that we can um deploy to stay within that parasympathetic nervous system rather than going off into the sympathetic nervous system where the flight by a phase call. So we're essentially controlling that vagus nerve, which controls our heart rate, controls our breathing, and that gives us the space to be present to make that informed, purposeful decision. Yes, which worked into really nicely. I worked with a sports psychologist for many years with team USA, uh, a guy called Dr. Arturo. He's called Pokabadorski.

SPEAKER_05 16:22

Oh, wow, wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

It took me about six years to figure that out to say that out. Um but he's a he's a he's a great guy, works at the University of Denver. Uh comes from a sporting background himself, uh a judo player and to uh to an international level. Um and he is this acronym. So when you're feeling that pressure, when your performance is under threat, if you like, you focus on the win. So the win standing for what's important now. Okay, what can I do right now that is going to positively influence the outcome that I'm investing in, because I'm feeling the pressure, first of all, go to that. What can I do right now? Which fundamental do I need to access to help get me towards that goal? What's important now? And then okay, pairing that with maybe um say reading exercise or focus exercise to bring us into that um parasympathetic nervous system response rather than sympathetic nervous system response.

SPEAKER_04 17:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Again, simple, straightforward, but it's a practice skill. It's not just done over time.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

I suppose that's interesting because is it fair to say that we don't always get taught that? Um, if you think, and I think, as you said, when you're surrounded by a team of experts that are used to that world and know how your body works and understands where you're going, um, whether you know you could be too ready or too hyped um before a particular performance. And you know, you does the adrenaline kick in more, but as you said, how how do how do we let it work with us, not against us? And we don't get taught this.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

No, and that's it. And I think the the biggest element that is across all of what you just said there is self-awareness for me.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Recognizing that you're in it.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Yes, first of all, first of all, we're trusting the first step of doing something about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yes, oh no, I feel this way, but it's all gone wrong. Oh, I don't know what's right, or oh, crikey. Oh, I feel that. Okay. Ah, I've got I know how to deal with this. Yeah, like I said, so the difference is those of the performers, they have all these specialist help, right? So they have their psychologists, right? Yeah, they have their sports psychologists, they have individual expert teams helping them to develop that one individual skill that they might not call upon all the time, as well as technical coaches as well, obviously, printing, conditioning, nutrition, um, physical therapy, whatever, all these little experts. We don't have all that, so we have to become experts ourselves. And people are new, people like me, and that have some experience of go, it might look like an elite behavior, but it's dead simple. Takes a bit of time, takes a bit of practice, but let's let's pour that together where I can help you understand our feeling first of all, and then what to do with it.

Getting Help And Delegating Like Athletes

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Yeah, absolutely. Because I'm a big believer, you know, I think I've just you believe that, you know, people, all people should have a coach. Um, and I know on our last um episode we talked about the fact that, you know, and I I wrote an article about it actually, that you know, all all performers, all elite performers at the top of the game will have somebody that's gonna help them support them when they need it in the area that they need it in. And that's why we always get a pushback, don't we, if you're right in the world of work, saying, Well, I haven't got time to even go and speak to a coach or have a mentor or just plan my strategy. I'll do it on the back of a napkin. And it's like, how do you how do we really translate that, I suppose, back into the world of work that says, you know, how do you stop? I always think let go of the stuff you shouldn't be doing anyway, give it to those people that are more expert in it or you or want to learn it. So you free up space. But a lot of people don't want to free up that space, don't they? So, what have you seen happening in your world where people go, I want to do that. I don't want to let go of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

It's huge and it's changing that culture around asking for help as well.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Particularly, I think the further you get up organizational structure, we're we're you know, to say C-suite, for example, we're expected to know certain things. Yes, right, and we're looking to use for that decision.

SPEAKER_04 20:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

But once you it's quite, as you know, the you know, the saying goes, it can be quite lonely at the top. Sometimes we really gap particularly if uh a certain culture exists within an ex organization, maybe historically, that those are the behaviors that aren't valued, right? So asking for help on this guy's weak, get the next guy in. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Actually, that's a two of strength, you're absolutely right. So if we relate that to sport, there's people, all the people who come from elite sport that go into the corporate space and the business space that are extremely good at those things, and they brought all those skills with them. I have a say in terms of there's no such thing as uh an individual sport anymore. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

So you take tennis well to the highest level.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

There's one person that's executing the final performance, the preparation and the team that is required to get that one person to that point is massive.

unknown 21:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

You know, you look at um say, you know, Blokovic or even uh Rory McElroy, okay, swing coach, putting coach, psych coach, listening coach.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

And they're all expert in what they do.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

We bring that back into the um business world. We're looking at a self-awareness. So what am I good at?

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

What am I less good at? We use eyes and aromatrix. What can I delegate? Okay. What can I give to the experts? Can I surround myself with experts so I can go and there's there to ask those people to execute that particular part of the strategy and going to oversee, for example. Side point again, knowing what your own individual part in that wider goal, that wider strategy is absolutely critical in focusing your effort and focusing um your skills, if you like. So it's getting understanding coaching is absolutely necessary, whether it's giving yourself an external coach that maybe help develop that coaching mindset in yourself, or if you are leading a particular team and you adopt that coaching mindset, you can coach yourself to solutions, but you could also help your people, member within your team, to adopt that mindset so they are actually more self-sufficient and not just coming to you with a problem. They have a mindset to figure out an approach of how to find a solution.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Yeah. You mentioned the phrase at the beginning, um, you were talking about building performance on purpose. Um, and I suppose what what practical habits or routines can get people into that sweet spot um of what I'd call relaxed readiness, but they are ready to be there as if they are the nutrition coach, the the psychologist, the you know, the fitness one, the swing coach. How do we do that to in today's world of work?

Prehab With Visualization And Energy

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Okay. In terms of for talking about behaviors that we want to be able to access, there's a little bit in terms of the approach I take to like either prehab or rehab. Okay, so what we can do ahead of time, right? Yes. So if we can visualize, so that's another skill using visualization, which comes a lot from sport as well.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Using visualizations to track or or understand possible futures. Okay, so if we do this, so if our behaviors are this, this is the likelihood that this will happen. How much of that do I have control over? Who else has control over it? Can I influence other people that have control over it? And then you figure out the behaviors that are necessary to get to that waypoint. I mean uh to get to the next waypoint, the next waypoint to uh to achieve that strategic goal. Okay, so it's real strategy and process prehap. Okay, do things ahead. There's also another element, a lot of this takes bandwidth, right? A lot of it takes a lot of a lot of emotional energy.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

And some of it is dead easy for us, some of it is harder for us. Having an acute understanding of that, so again, back to self-awareness.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

And you'll all be familiar if you're all your listeners and yourself as well. So Stephen Coway's um Seven Habits.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Seven Habits, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Talk about emotional bank accounts?

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

So what are the things I kind of expanded that a little bit? It's a it's purely based on relationships. I've kind of expanded that idea a little bit in terms of okay, what are the relationships? Yes. What are the environments? What are the activities that either make a deposit in your local emotional bank account or it can take a withdrawal from that? So if you're knowing that you're going into, say, if we're talking, let's take the finance industry. So end of year, end of year for most businesses, a big pressure point, right?

SPEAKER_03 25:34

Big pressure, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

What can we do ahead of time to fill up our emotional bank account, knowing that we're going to be under pressure, maybe tipping into stress from time to time? What can we do ahead of that? Or and what can we have to look forward to in and maybe booking some leave after that? Yeah. Okay, to recover for the rehab side of it. What can we do ahead of it? Yeah, absolutely. It's all about kicking your performance for the big event. And if it's if if your sport is the pinnacle is Olympic or Paralympic, that's once every four years.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Right?

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Yeah, yeah, but the engine is every year.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

So Olympic uh 100 year spin, you've got 10 seconds every four years. It's bonkers. Why would you spend four years, millions and millions of dollars or pounds to hone your your uh oper. It's not even an out, it's not even uh a guarantee, it's an opportunity to perform. There is no guarantee for outcome. No, you're just preparing yourself as best you can for that opportunity with no guarantee of outcome because there's lots of things in that you cannot control.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

We're trying to do everything else. We're all kind of control things because we're trying to control everything as much as possible.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Yeah, we have to recognise that, don't we? But I love the fact that you know that people say about what have you done to prep for it. And you know, we were talking to um Carl, who was you know a dancer, and and that rehearsal, the show was amazing, but the rehearsal, people don't see that behind the scenes stuff. Like you're saying, you know, six months, nine months goes into rehearsal. Like the Olympics, if you're gonna be in the Olympics, four years of prepping and planning and adjusting, and it's madness. Yet at work, we expect people to just turn it round on a you know on a little shoestring, don't we? No wonder the people are burnt out or overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, they're burnt out there's huge, huge fire of that. I'm just gonna end it on my mind when you're talking about that. So that's about managing energy, right? Yeah, absolutely and and being very consciously aware of what, like I say, it adds to our emotional banking, what takes away. Because if we slip into that withdrawal or overdrawn or constantly overdrawn, yeah, then we're in trouble.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

Yeah, we definitely are.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

For me, it's in trying to sort of draw down in those behaviours that we can do ahead of time. So self-awareness is for sure with them.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

So purposeful preparation, rather than just like, oh, prepare. Well, what have you got to prepare? What's going to create the biggest impact on the performance? Yes. And then so we're so as elite performers, generally we are outcome-driven. So we we want to win, right? Yep. But process focused.

unknown 28:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

So we don't when you're actually performing, we don't think about the outcome. We think about the fundamentals, yeah, the steps. But we've identified beforehand outside of the pressure situation, I need to do A, B, and C, and that'll give me the best opportunity for the outcome that I want. No guarantee, remember? Yeah, there isn't it's the best opportunity. So that's why process focus. So you'll hear, I'm sure you've heard about people just particularly in a from a military context, or the training just kicks in.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Yes, yeah. You hear that time again, don't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Oh, Alan, that's that flow state we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

And when you see somebody, you see Serena Williams, or or you see somebody with uh or even Lori McAwell's watching the golf yesterday.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

In that state, you're just like you said, effortless. Just complete flow. Yeah, you can see it, can't you? Yeah, it's hard to get that. All the all the work and the effort it's taken, and the time and the time, the time. That was what Rory's so it took him 17 attempts.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Yeah, yeah, it was 17. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

To win the master's first and foremost, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Um but a bit and and he's a great one. There's all these examples of choking, as we call it.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

That's yeah, you do, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

All the commons, and that's when pressure turns with stress, right? And influencing an action, so maybe it's disrupting a swing pattern, right? Yeah, or it's disrupting the way you go about constructing a turn up in skiing, or like you said, in a business context, it's it's constructing the flow of how you present, perhaps, to a decision maker. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

That is one thing I wanted to actually say as well. So, in terms of outcome focused, if we bring it by to business, we've got to under if sport is pretty meritocratic, okay? You've got to be the fastest, you've got to score the most points, yeah. You've got to, you know, um have the lowest score, whatever it is, right? That's you know, the result. Okay. The outcome. In business, there'd be a little bit more nuanced than that because a lot of the time it's a subjective decision. So you're you're presenting to a board or to a potential client. So you've got to understand, well, what what do they value?

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

What behaviors do they value? If you're just going in there trying to give the best of you as you see it, that'd be great. But is that what they want? Is that what they need?

unknown 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

So again, input can help you with that. So understanding what it is and understanding what actually drives um decision makers, and you can lean into that or not lean into that. That's why having a goal is really important. Okay, this is my goal with this particular group of people or this particular situation. What are the behaviors necessary? Okay, do I need to practice those behaviors? Do I have those behaviors? Yeah. Yeah. So here's that prehab thing as well. So it's practical practice. I love that. Process focused, yeah. Um, but outcome-driven.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Outcome, yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

You know, and again, clear goal or whatever you're trained. That's so, so important.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

It is, isn't it? Because that I know when we go in and work with people, we say, well, if we come in and do some stuff with you, and you probably have done the same. So what, you know, what do you want to see different? Or what do you want the outcome to look like? You know, because you obviously have caught us in for a reason. And I'm always burning away, you know, you know, people can't always articulate that in a way because it is around mainly, all right, yes, they want to have the you know, more money in the bank, more this, more that, but then it is about how people work together nine times out of ten. It's that togetherness which makes a difference. When you say, well, what what does good look like when we've been and gone? You know, and it's like, oh, I don't know, like Stephen Covey said, start with the end in mind, right? Um and I think that's one of the best things. Yeah. Start with the end in mind. What does it look like, you know, for you?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, that's my idea as well. It's like, yeah, what do you what do you want to do? What's what's the most all that?

unknown 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

And then we're engineering. Where do we have strength to be able to do that? What do we mean to maybe invest? But it's usually time is the biggest investment. Yeah, money's secondary for a lot of uh organizations or maybe on par.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Uh, but it's it's recognizing what your ROI is as well, going actually, yeah, can I offer invest in my people in this? Because if you want this outcome and it involves this collaboration maybe with internal and external stakeholders, how are you going to do that? How are you gonna do that?

SPEAKER_03 33:05

But as you said, they need the time to be able to plan and not run at a million miles an hour. And you know, because we're on 24-7 and Access, and you know, some of the great leaders we've worked with actually have used their time wisely, but it's been a tough lesson for them to recognise that you know if they didn't, they wouldn't be where they were today. But I think people who are maybe just beginning in their careers who are think they have to work harder to be the best. Um, I just think that's maybe not the right message we should be giving them around that. You know, the harder you work, the more you'll get rewarded and all of that stuff. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_01 33:44

I'd say work with purpose rather than just talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Yeah, I like that. Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Um and understanding what is value. The way I work is that I don't go in and say this is the culture, you must adapt or not. Sorry, right? It's more of okay, what do you want to achieve? What is your culture at the minute? Does that serve that?

SPEAKER_04 34:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Or do you need to ask more of your staff, your people? Northwestern, you need to do you need to drop staff, do you need to bring more on? Like you can you need to if you're asking people to work 18 hour days, is that but as long as that's open and clear, and it's a it's a it's a it's uh it's a really conscious decision from people within that environment, that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:25

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

So that's what served your income, and that's a culture that you're choosing to adopt. You can be a part of it or not to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Yeah. And I I think yeah, and do you think that's one of the differences? Because I I I mean, I know people go, I when I'm young, you know, younger, I want to be a the top, you know, premier football all that, or I want to be the top athlete, or I want to be this or that. Very few actually get to do it in the end. So um, and I suppose it's similar to like they still work hard and they still do it, but as you said, there's no purpose behind it and real drive to want to, I suppose, and the mindset towards it. That's going to be quite difficult when you get a little bit of a setback, which happens in the world of work as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Really does, yes. And that's it, and how we deal with how we frame and how we deal with what we're perceiving failure to be, yeah, it's huge. You know, and and the feedback is really important in this in terms of okay, if we bring it back to clarity of goal, okay. Yes, the goal is if we want to give feedback on the behaviors that are specific to achieving that goal. A lot of organizations and culturally, actually within the UK particularly, we tend to be quite sort of negative about our feedback in general.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

They do, people don't like it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 35:45

No, because feedback, feedback culturally is like we're kind of we only get feedback when things are going wrong. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Or you know, something hasn't quite got across the line, okay, we have to look at this and understand why we failed.

SPEAKER_05 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Well that's great. But if that is your only contact with feedback, it there's a trigger to that, an emotional trigger to that. If we can redefine feedback to be in this constant open loop and understanding we actually analyze things when they're going well as well. Okay, what do we do here that really make a difference here? Rather going, that's done well next, that's our community.

SPEAKER_05 36:20

Yeah, make sure that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Well, we could make one, but we don't actually know why or how we did it.

unknown 36:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

So it's a important understanding of defining that culture around it can be really important as one thing. And that it's all about motivation, right? So how do you deal with feedback involves that motivation, which helps you do with failure, because that's what lessons are learning. You don't fail, you don't learn. You know what? Every single successful sports person who has been consistent, and that's the key word, consistent will have failed massively at some point. I mean again, Leslie's lawyer.

SPEAKER_03 36:53

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but he came back, but I suppose that's the difference, isn't it, between making those little like millisecond, those micro uh you know, adjustments and along the way, but they've been open to have that feedback given to them and maybe he wouldn't have looked into his mental game as much if they're not going to well.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

So the fact that you've reached a challenge, whether it's you know a challenge in your performance at work or if we're talking about in a sports performance, well, we're driven to investigate how we can change that if it doesn't work. So that's a real opportunity. So failure for me is a massive opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Why do we create the ceiling of a performance? Yeah, and by helping people understand that and pushing to the point of failure and going, well, what happened to that? What happened to that controlled ways for sure?

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Yeah, of course. Yeah, not random.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

No, 100%. And that's what I mean on purpose, right? Again, there's that word again. Exactly.

A Framework For Showing Up Well

SPEAKER_03 37:54

It comes back to the yeah, with per. And I think that's when you're thinking about, you know, what you you do, that performance with purpose, I think is really, really key. Um, and I think being able to do some work on that. But I suppose, I mean, we could continue this conversation. It's been fascinating because there are so many crossovers. And when you start to unpick, well, what stops somebody doing that? Why would they not want to have a go? Yeah, I mean, we could be on here for hours, but I wanted to just ask you a question, Tony, if that's okay. Um, if powerful presence is about how we show up when it matters the most, what does your own definition of showing up well look like today for you?

SPEAKER_01 38:33

For me, again, it's bespoke to the individual. So if you know what your outcome, what you're trying to achieve from any given situation beforehand. So if I've gone into a meeting or a session, what what do I want to? I usually ask clients, I'd say, well, I had a client um last week, perfect example of this. Freaking out about this this meeting that had been put in the diary very last minute, all thought it was about to show in the door, really freaking like last year and it like the afternoon on a Friday afternoon for first thing on a Monday is to go the whole weekend to kind of dwell on it. So I had a session with them on the Friday evening. And we talked through it, talked about, oh well, okay, what are the possible features, as we mentioned earlier, that you think might happen. Okay. How do you want to show up? Okay, so okay, I'll and the way I frame that is well, how do you want to feel walking away from that meeting after it's so what's the outcome, right? So outcome driven, perform process focused, okay? Yes. So I want to walk away feeling, and they had three things that they wanted to get out of that meeting. I don't know how I'm gonna do that, and I've got and their insights literate as well. And says, Well, they they they they uh the people in this meeting they leave with so much red, I don't and I leave a lot of green, and I don't know if I'm gonna be able to get my voice heard, and you know, sort of like, oh, okay, so okay, well let's talk about that. So you either you're gonna have to dial up your red or or just wait for the space. It'd be okay to wait for the space, and then bring where you feel you're most comfortable with. So you have a choice there.

unknown 40:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Because we're delayed visualization, they did a lot of visualization of different possible features over the weekends. And actually they realized, so they were really they were stressed, it wasn't pressure, they were stressed about this on the Friday.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

And they were like, they realized after I said you email me on Monday after the meeting, let me know.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Yeah, let me know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Go on, go on the period. So um came back to me and said, actually, yeah, I realized actually when I did all the different visualizations of different visualizing possible futures and how I wanted to show up. Actually, the outcome didn't really matter as thought as much as I thought it did to me. Okay, so if you take that, there's that, and so if it doesn't mean as much to you, all of a sudden the pressure vanishes.

SPEAKER_04 40:53

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

So what do I want to get out? So they wanted to get out three things. Said, I got two out of the three I got, one has all been worked on. I'm like, okay, so did so you remember you said you wanted to walk away from the meeting with that? How do you feel about that? Great. That's all I wanted to do. That took purposeful mental rehearsal over the weekend to be able to go into that, and now they use that framework to uh think about again so prehab to before any potential stress situation for them. They have a they have a framework to go, okay. What do I want to go from there? How do I want to show up? What's important to me?

SPEAKER_05 41:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

And it is that we spoke to each individual, but it's a practice skill to be able to execute that in the moment. And that's where the learning happens.

Self-Awareness, Process, Discipline, Accountability

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yeah, and that's what I love about coaching because that fundamental basics you've put helped somebody to explore and have the foundations in place that they can come back to. So, you know, I'm always a great believer that you know, if you have a good coach, uh, especially in the workspace, they might come back maybe for a top-up, but you shouldn't be seeing them for four, five, six, seven years. It's more of you've given them the skills and the empowerment to do it. So, Tony, if there was one call to action you would give our listeners, because we always like to have a call to action. Laura will do her share of the secret once she's listened back to this. What would the um what would your call to action be if we're going to be like this poised under pressure or poised for performance, having that purpose in performance as well? What would be one call to action for our listeners to consider?

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Oh, I think the biggest, well, there's it's almost two that are sit hand in hand with me. First of all, is raise your self-awareness and awareness of others. That's that's pivotal.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

And also process focused.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Process focused, outcome-driven. There is, I'm gonna be cheap. I'm gonna add a couple of little sweeteners here at the end as well. So remember, I thought about when I was um asking you about those fundamentals of elite performance through all those different um groups of people I talked to.

SPEAKER_04 43:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

So in line with the fundamentals, there was another, there was two other top threes that came out of that.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Those were first and foremost, discipline.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Yes. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Meaning, for me, discipline is choosing what you want most over what you want now. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

So doing what you want now for the greater goal. And being really disciplined. And then the the partner to that is accountability.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Um and this was back to Artur. I are on a the sports psychologist. I did a lot of work with him around accountability for the athletes in the team that I worked with. And that was about true accountability because accountability is kind of thrown around.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Yeah, it is. Yeah. And we're only accountable for ourselves, is what I always tell everyone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

That's it. So account true accountability is accountability accountability, excuse me, when no one is watching.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

When there's no audience, there's nobody to witness it. So getting out of your bed, doing the work, doing the practicing the behaviors, following the process that you know is going to give you the best opportunity. Not the outcome, gonna give you the best opportunity to achieve that outcome. Those three things. So do the fundamentals really well, have the discipline to practice the fundamentals, and show up, do the work. Accountability.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Everybody, every single elite performer. And that starts with the grassroots. So we're talking about early careers.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Yeah, absolutely. That's what we're saying. Get a mentor, get someone who can you know give you that and support you.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

It's usually a blend of what I usually offer. It's not it's not maybe pure coaching or pure mentoring, it's coaching with mentoring sprinkled in there.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Those lived experiences. Yes. What I've seen be really powerful and really impactful on multiple environments, not just sport, not just business, personal life, all these different things. Do you want to get changed or elevate your performance? Fundamentals, discipline, accountability.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Not because hard work.

How To Reach Tony McAllister

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Yeah, not easy, but that's half of it, isn't it? You get the reward when you are standing up there and you go, oh, I did that. Yeah, and that success. Celebrate that pat on the back moment. I mean, it's been fascinating to talk to you about this because we've always believed that there's a parallel with, you know, the world of sport and the world of business, and it's how do they merge together in a way. Um, but there are so many anomalies that sit around it, which we experience as well. So I just want to say, yeah, a huge, massive thank you for you giving us your time. Um, because you know, I I think the work that you had done and the work you're doing now is bringing the two worlds together beautifully. So if people wanted to find out more about you, how can they find you?

SPEAKER_01 45:59

I guess, well, thank you for that, first of all. Um I think I mean, like I say, I could talk about this stuff all day. All day every day. We'll have to get it. Sorry, point to follow over. There's so much there was one other thing I was going to say, but I'm gonna save that for another time. So you have to do that.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

Save that for the next one. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

It works finally. So, yeah, I'm always looking to expand my client base, uh, also explore collaboration opportunities. So if you work in LD or run your own consultancy, or if something has resonated with you today as an individual or an organization, oh yeah, tell me more about that article. I could see how that might help me or help us or help my team reach out. Best place is to start is on my website. So Tony McAllister.com, you can find all the necessary links and info on there. So that's T-O-L-Y. And I know some people struggle with this the variety of spellings of McAllister, but my McAllister is M-C-A-L-L-I-S-T-E-R. So Tony McAllister.com. And I say you can find all the information you need to reach out to me on there.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

Brilliant. Thank you so much. And I'm I've loved it because you know it's just a pleasure to talk to a fellow insight practitioner, but also someone who was also recognises the core is self-awareness. And yeah, and I love that that you've sort of shared that with us today. And I love the fundamentals, the discipline and accountability. And as you said, it's not it's the things that happen behind the scenes that uh is going to make the biggest difference, isn't it? So, Tony, I just want to say huge thank you. What a great opportunity to talk to you as well, you know, with your prestigious career as well in the world of Olympics and Paralympics. It's you know, I love the fact that it's being blended together. So um, yeah, we look forward to talking to you again at some point because we, as you said, I think we've got more topics coming out of this for sure. But thank you for your time, Tony.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Thank you for your time. Always a pleasure. Thanks for that.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Oh, see you next time. Thank you. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

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