285. Healthy Coping Mechanisms

In this first in our 5 part mini-series looking at healthy coping mechanisms, we explore a practical proactive wellness toolkit for coping in the moment, recognising stress and making sensible choices under pressure. 

Transcript

Welcome And Why Coping Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Dad.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

No, are you alright?

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Yeah, I'm doing really well.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

How about you? Yes, I'm good, thank you. I'm back in my pink room because I'm back with this client I've been working with. So yeah, I'm back in this nice room, which is yeah, it's very calming in here actually. Love it. It is. Yeah. It's very calming.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Yeah, I'm loving the block colour look. You've got the grey behind you with the seats, the salmon pink. It's very calming.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

It's very calming, actually.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

And it's Are you actually in a prison?

SPEAKER_01 0:34

No, I'm not. Um, we don't, you know, I've got pictures around me that haven't gone on the wall yet. They're still refurbing, but it's a lovely colour, is what I would say. Lovely.

The Rail Team And The Brief

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Yeah, a lovely lovely. Well, isn't that almost like a metaphor for life? It's the walls are up, but I'm still refurbing. And I guess the intention behind our Secrets from a Coach podcast is now we are in our blime coming up to our sixth year, five and a half years we've been doing this, Debs. That's gone so quick. And even in that five and a half years, just think how much change we've seen in our rapidly evolving world of work and what it means to work and how we do it, and the geography and the tech and just the advances of um AI, you know, let alone all the other stuff, has just really added towards quite a complex and ever-moving, demanding workplace. And we thought it would be really powerful to focus this current uh five-part series looking at healthy coping mechanisms. Yes. Because we um recently ran our team, um, I think what you could say is a successful project.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Oh, it was very successful, I think. They loved it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

I think they did. Yeah. Um, where we were working with a team who were part of a rail operations centre. So this client of ours, long-standing client, they're responsible for 22% of UK passenger railway journeys. They've got a total um um workforce of around about 7,000 people, I think, in all sorts of different roles. And as you can even imagine, the rail industry is going to be full of some of those demanding, pressured, and actually sometimes quite traumatic situations and scenarios people find themselves in. And the desire from the client was can we create a workshop that isn't just theory, has got lots of practical, and an opportunity for people to come together and discuss what does it mean to have healthy coping mechanisms, particularly when you have a demanding job. Yes. And actually, I think what we all enjoy from being involved in that is we had took a refreshing take on the content, we um took it from a number of different angles, and like all of the a lot of the content we cover, these are skills for life. Yeah, they just happen to be really useful and you want to point them in direction of having like a stressful job, how do you deal with it?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, and I think when we work with them, I don't think they quite knew where we were going with it because they're very operational, as we knew, but I think because you you where you designed it, you would approach it from how our bodies are being, and it's the same for all of us, how we process stressful situations being under pressure. I think that's what made it a bit you more unique than just going, do these five things that you should be doing. You know, it was actually focusing on what goes on inside your body, which your body will make will do happen anyway. And I think that's what really hit home with them. Um, and the story some of them shared was super personal, but they really engaged with it as well because I think it we weren't telling them what to do because they created everything, right? We just created the space for them to have a really great conversation around this is scientifically, as you said, physiologically, what happens in our bodies, anyone, but it's heightened even more because of the situation they find themselves in. I loved it. Yeah, it's good.

The Water Jug Capacity Metaphor

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Oh, it was, yeah, a joy to be involved in. And uh, we're uh imagine there's gonna be some onward stuff as well because it's it it it's uh you know, be able to commote uh to be able to um cope healthily with stress and stressful demands, even if your job isn't particularly traumatic, yeah, is um is gonna be useful skills for uh for the for the foreseeable, I imagine. Yeah. So, Depps, there was a I'd never seen this before, but can you just talk us through what the water jug exercise was? Because it was such a powerful visual metaphor to get us all thinking about what it means to have capacity in the first place to handle whatever that shift or what that day might bring to us.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it was good fun, and it was really good asking for volunteers, and those sheepishly came up to us. So the the the thing behind the water exercise and the water jug is that there's one person that has the jug, and then there's two other people that we use that have their glass full of water or you know, near enough full, and we ask them to hold it out in front of them, and I've seen this done before, and it's just to go, how long can you hold on to that weight, that heaviness that might be around you, and it's always good, and most people go, Yeah, this is all right. Um, but then what we do is we then say, Well, actually, how where do you go to get rid of the pressure or the stress? Who do you offload to? We had some great conversations about that, but who do you offload that to? So we made them one of them offload their water into the guy, the person holding the jugs, so it was getting heavier. Um, and this you can see the worms wobble a bit more, and it was like, oh, I've got to stay like this, yes, because we're very good at coming back and going again, going again, going again. And we are strong and have that capacity. But when we keep topping it up more and more stuff, there's only so much we can hold on to. And what we saw was when we filled up the jug again with another glass of water from the other person, they felt lovely. They were skipping because they got rid of whatever was burdening them. Um, but the person left with it, which can be us as well, was like struggling to hold on to that jug of water. Um, and that's really what sits behind it is like how much can you take before you can't take any more? And actually not getting to that point of being overloaded to the point where you can't function and you cannot hold something for any length of time, be it your job or conversations or just functioning in this world. And I think that is the metaphor that sits behind it. So, and the minute they put the jug down, the relief was huge. So we flipped it over into so if that was your life and you're topping yourself up with loads and loads and loads of stuff, it's only gonna go one way if you're not gonna offload it or talk to somebody else or do something that's gonna help you cope healthily in those moments where you're under pressure and stress.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Lovely.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Loved it. It was so fun.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

It was so much fun. So let me give a reflection question and then we'll move on to with a sort of first bit of kit that we covered. So a reflection question might be what has Dev's explained in the water and the jug metaphor, what's that reminded you of? How much capacity have you got in your head at the moment? And what could be one or two things that you could plan in that you know just help relieve the pressure? Because if we have more capacity, more space in our head, then the everyday stuff is going to impact us less.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, I love that. Love that. So should we go on to the next bit that you did? Because this fascinated me as well as the rest of us, as well as the people that sat in the room with us. Should we explore that next floor?

Fight Or Flight And Team Friction

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Sadebs. Yes, more. As you know, I found it quite interesting over the last decade or so to do the kind of robot AI mirror check. Yes. As in, what is it that it means for us to be human? How are we different from the machines around us? And it doesn't matter whether you're an introvert, an extrovert, you've got that preference, you've got that requirement, we are all gifted with this same machinery, this biomechanic toolkit that has been exquisitely honed over thousands of years of evolution. And actually, by taking that science approach of what are the physiological stages that our mind and brain, our brain and body puts us through, even though we might have quite different minds and mindsets about it, that brain and that body are um or all have this have the have the exact same function in terms of how they operate. So it's a mixture of your chemistry, it's the timings around it. And actually, what we found from equipping people with just some of this reminder of what happens when our body is dialed up and it's put into that fight or flight response. What happens? What does that mean in terms of how we can look out for ourselves? And what creates some really interesting conversations was what does that mean with working compassionately with each other as a team? Yeah. So here was the setup. Back in the day, we had our cave-dwelling ancestors. Love that. A long time ago. A long, long time ago, devs. In fact, we might even have some letters from uh those days. I'm not that old yet, Lord. There's some old job descriptions lying around in the members of the cave fire somewhere. I don't think there were competency frameworks then.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

I definitely don't think so. But hey, tell me more about our cave-dwelling people.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

So just imagine how life was. So you would have had, we would have had absolutely some stressful moments of when you were running, fighting, hunting, extreme caring, all those medical health emergencies that we just had to deal with in our own kind of way, a few sticks. I mean, I'm kind of imagining here what we might have had as our gift. But what would have happened is we would have had very clear, marked, marked time of when we're on and when we're off. So once the predator had been gone, once a hunt had been complete, we would come back and we would have moments of rest. And typically, when the sun goes down, that would be our environmental trigger that, right, you can relax now. Or you would then have, you know, certain of the tribe keeping guard while everyone else can then sleep. We also would have sat around that campfire and shared all of our war stories, exchanged all of our health and safety messaging, and that's how we would have ensured that we were then going to be able to go on and survive. Yeah. Now the thing is, is because we have been gifted with the ability to communicate and verbalise and write things down, our bodies haven't had to change in order to adapt to the environment because we just passed those learnings on, you know, through to the next generations. So what that means is we've still got this same basic kit that we did when we were there, you know, looking like Raquel Welsh in her um animal skin bikini.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Oh my god, years and years ago. That's so that wouldn't be lab now. No.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Thankfully, thankfully. Like a cheese wire through E Dam Debs, if you got me doing that costume. Anyway. So what that then means is suddenly you work in an environment where you've got a 24-7 operation, you've got technology that is constantly beeping us and giving us blue light, and there's just less environmental cues that might naturally indicate to us, right, enough, you can relax, it's time to chill and reset. So what that means is that cup of stuff could just be ever getting more and more full because we've all got this stuff going. And what we were looking at is if we just go back to the core of how we cope with stressful situations, our bodies are exquisitely designed to cope with crisis.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

The bit that now requires a bit of manual override is how I come back from that fight or flight to be able to reset, to be able to clear my cup, so I've got capacity for the next thing. And that's really what we were looking at is equipping everyone with the shared language of what happens when your body is dialed up. So, for example, in the rail operation um uh world, a call comes in or something has happened. And what you can then see is across that team of 200 is a call comes in, but not to everyone all at once, it might be the five people over there who are on first response. And if you then know that your adrenaline and cortisol start to pump through and it operates in that 20-minute zone, and in that 20 minutes, what that does is our bodies are exquisitely designed to slow time down, so it slows time down so you're able to think a bit quicker. Yeah. So let's say, for example, you're there and you're in that five and you're having to respond super quick in an untrained, well, not un not untrained, but maybe an unprecedented situation. Yeah. Your training kicks in, but suddenly you're requiring someone else to give you some info. Their adrenaline hasn't kicked in yet, so they're operating on normal time, and suddenly it now becomes frustrating having to wait a minute because it might feel like four minutes. Because everything about our adrenaline is it tunnels our vision to then be able to focus and have extreme focus. Your appetite drops, even if you needed to go to the loo before that call came in, your body will forget those things and it will prioritise with the prefrontal cortex or that decision making. Now, then what happens after that 20 minutes is your body's got to start to sort of have that come down, but this is where you can get a bit jittery because your body knows it's still got to focus. And this is where you might see some people needing to move around, other people needing to sit still. What came out loud and clear is as a team, if you have almost like your shared language, and theirs was tea and a wee.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Tea and a wee, touch the brass was the other one. Touch the brass, which was just get out and smell air if you can. Get outside. Yeah, get outside.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah. But Debs, I know because when I was sort of leading it from the front and you were there immersed, you know, in uh on the various sessions we ran with the real life people showing real life stuff. What stuck out for you that you think, even if someone listening might not have that type of job where they're an emergency responder, yeah, that you think actually might be quite useful for other types of roles or life in general?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

I think, yeah, that's a good point. And what came out was the realization that we all have stuff that we carry, and it's that making sure we're not being overloaded with it. And those conversations that they were having was around how do they recover enough to be able to go again? And that's what came out of the conversations. But because I think we do in our daily lives, if we were to stop and pause for a moment and look at all of the stuff we were carrying, and I always sort of align it to the old the game, the buckaroo game with the used to put the all the bits on the horse, and when it got too much, it would buck and chuck everything off. And it's how do I not get to that stage where I'm putting another thing on, another thing on another thing, and then I'm just overloading myself. And when they were chatting, what came out of it was that they realized that the one they weren't alone in this, that it was happening to everybody around them, which they may not have appreciated, because as we know, um a couple of the groups are all male, um, and men are not great at chatting about their emotions or how they're feeling. But what that did was enable them to have that safe space to go, you feel like I feel. Oh my goodness, we have a connection. And it was that ability in that moment for them to realise the power it is to be connected to another human to be able to share what you were going through without being judged because they experienced it. So that recognising them when I'd had enough, um, and therefore they were able to support and get each other through it as well as them on their own. And I think that's the parallel in life. How much are you carrying around where you feel I'm just hanging on here and you're not doing anything about it, and therefore you suddenly realize I can't function properly, therefore, what am I going to do differently? And that's what came out.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Love it, Debs. So, my reflection question for this would be to reframe coping isn't for weak people unable to deal with you know life. Coping is an exquisitely honed evolutionary process. Yeah. The challenge is that we are using those coping mechanisms, potentially 24-7. Whereas our ancestors would have had clear on or off times, and they would have had campfire time to come and sit around and to be able to share, and there would have been that sense of community. So uh the reflection would be what's what's what's this reminded you of? And what do you think might help you in the week ahead?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

I think so. And I'd add on that, Law, as to think who's in your community, um, because that's I think you have to surround yourself with the people that you can trust to be able to look out for you and for you for them. So who is that in your community? Name them, you know, be clear on who they are. So if you need them, you know where to go. Right. Oh, what do you know? I could call, and then don't call anybody.

Track Switching For Real Recovery

SPEAKER_00 16:25

So, devs, let's now have a look at. So, if our body's exquisitely honed to be able to, whether you're this type of person or that type of person, um, we're we've got the same biomechanical kit. So, if that first 20 minutes is designed to enable you to think, to um suppress some requirements and uh prioritise other requirements, what I think then the teams found really useful then is then what happens then after. And so there are various phases, and we came up with some really cool visuals around phase one, two, three, and four. And what I think became uh useful from a takeaway point of view is is in short, how do you um how do you operate to then be able to have good sleep at your first convenience? Because if you're there with disrupted sleep, rehearsing and rehear uh uh ruminating and rehashing over the day, then that's going to impact sleep. And sleep, as the research time and time again shows, is one of the pillars for personal wellness to be able to sleep and recalibrate. And I think what was quite an eye-opener for people, and it'd be great to get your take on this, is is there is a stage where your body and your brain is almost given an option, and we use the visual of like two tracks on a train track.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Um, the one is do I carry on and ignore the fact that my tummy's on edge? Yeah. I can't, I can't eat or sleep or go to the toilet normally. Um, I'm bursting into tears when people are chatting to me, but I'm just going to ignore it and power on. Or do I switch track and think, do you know what? Actually, I'm not normally the type of person that leaves on time. And I'm not normally the type of person that prioritises me having a bath over dealing with a family, but I know my body needs it. Not because I'm weak. No. But because this is what my ancestors would have maybe had opportunity to. Yeah. And actually that's part of that, not just surviving, but that thriving. So Debbie, what did you pick up when you were there immersed in all the hundreds of people that we had on these various sessions that you think might be useful for everyday life? That that opportunity to catch it and track switch.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

I think, and that is such that was such a good one. Um, and they also pointed out that we'd got six tracks on our visual, didn't they? Rather than two tracks. They weren't a bit triggered. Yeah. But it was a track. It's a track. What do you mean the six, isn't it? And they yeah, so that was quite funny, actually. They were really good. Um, but I think that ability to recognise what you need in that moment. So if it is peace and quiet, which some of them loved peace and quiet, some of them wanted loud music, some of them wanted to just just sit themselves out of it, play games, go and see friends. There were so many variations, and I think that one's you know, one size fits one, it's not that will do for everybody. So finding what it is that you do and their ability to share that amongst themselves with their hints and tips, right? Was really refreshing because some of them had similar things, yet some were the complete opposite, and that in itself created a conversation where people would just do different things, and you could see people being curious about well, what does that give you? And what does that give you? And and so therefore they go, I might try that. And you know, that was the beauty of it is that they just didn't stick to their known trusted one, they were gonna open their minds to go and maybe try something slightly different because they'd listen to their colleagues, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

And we would never ever, you know, think of standing up there and telling people what they should or shouldn't do, like what you should do around alcohol or smoking or whatever those bits and bobs are. But it was quite moving when you heard people say, actually, I could sense that I was having to have wine or whiskey to fall asleep at night. Yeah. I knew I needed to mix things up a little bit, so I got fishing again. Yes. Or my wife and I go caravanning, yeah, or DJing. DJing. And just like all these pursuits, these hobbies and pursuits. Yes. Because I think what was um also generated some great conversation. I know we've talked lots about it on this podcast over the years, but if we understand those stress hormones that are designed to keep us alive, your adrenaline, your cortisol, all the other bits and bobs, to then actually be able to counter it with our feel-good hormones that are designed to enable us to thrive. So that's your dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, endorphinin. If it makes you feel good, do more of it. Yeah, do more of it. Don't don't don't put that off. Because actually, if you've got a big job or you are balancing a lot of things, or you've got lots of responsibilities or financial pressures or whatever is filling up your cup, your capacity, then it's even more important to prioritise those things because that's how you reset yourself to then be able to go back out of the cave, do what you need to do. And I think just circling back to what you were saying about that community bit, we used to have the campfire. You wouldn't dream of having been through some battle without regrouping that night and talking it through. Um, but now you might deal with a battle and then you are solo on your own, coping with all of that. Yeah, and um, you know, you might be the sole job owner, there might be no one else who's able to be identify exactly what you're talking about. So I think that campfire analogy is really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

And I think that's what they really um I suppose made them realise that yeah, they do do that. Um, I think they took they mentioned that you know if you're in on a I think it's one of the days, can't remember, that somebody will bring food, they bring food in and they eat together and things like that. And you just think that's exactly that community is and that's the bit where they just have probably not connected. That with being good for them. And it was those moments, wasn't it? Because we kept it as in realistic, very practical things that you are doing every day, but you may have just forgotten that you do. But the power of them was reinforced by them sharing things like that and being able to, you know, take that moment they needed, come together. So that connection again was the one that kept them feeling okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yes, Debs.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

And I think that's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

And you know, it's those little moments that it's only if you have some time off the pitch as a team or an individual that you get to sort of join some dots at. Once all of those people know, oh, Tony five curries. Yes. Curry cheers him up when he's down. Yeah. And it's what he does after a difficult shift to just have the mechanical, the reassuring comfort of cooking a curry. So when Tony comes in and everyone's had a really traumatic shift the day before, I'm not just going to ignore the fact that Terry that Tony's talking about is curry. Yeah. Actually, I now know what that signifies.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

And actually, that's my way of being a good mate of work by chatting about the curry, because it's not about the curry. That's actually us sitting around the cave chatting things through.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Absolutely. And that's what I loved, and the simplicity of it. And I think that was this, you know, you don't have to have some grand gesture or fix to do. It is the simple things in life that bring you back to who am I? And like as you said, some of them would just go out for a walk into nature and just listen to the birds or something. And they are the simplest things, you know. And I think we sometimes over, what's the word I'm looking for? Overcompensate and thinking we must have this grand gesture that we're doing. But no, we really don't. It's the simple things that make the biggest difference and have the best impact on us. And I think listening to all of them and the tips they shared, um, as you said, Laura, we never told them what to do. It was them telling us what they do and sharing it. They were amazing, and they've made certainly made us think and go, Yeah, I haven't done that for ages, actually, you know, and I think that was the beauty of that those sessions we did with them, was it not only supported them in their understanding, for me, it just reinforced what am I doing for myself? And I think that's the bit we forget is we we say it to everyone else, or our supporting everybody else, but we've got to remember to support ourselves too, otherwise, we're not capable of supporting everybody else because our jug is overflowed and we've got no capacity left to support, or and the little buckaroo toy is just bucked, and it's like we're don't a runner.

Calls To Action And Closing

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Absolutely, yeah. Um, I mean, my share of the secret from this would be it'd be great to hear your call to action. Um, collectively, within that um rollout, we uh counted it up because it's it's always really humbling to just get the collective number of years of experience, and there was 1,229 years worth of rail operation experience that came in and out of that room over that rollout, and just to be able to have that time to just sit, process the equivalent of a campfire. Yeah. And so my share the secret would be well, I've got two on this actually. There's share the secret, and then there's my kind of plea to anyone that has any um influence over learning and development in their organisation. So the call to action would be if you know someone with whom has been saying, God, the team are really stressed at the moment, we need some things to be able to kind of support them, then get them to listen to this because it might give them some food for thought about an alternative approach. Because not everyone wants to lie, not everyone wants to lie there in a bo in a bubble bath. That's self-care is different things for different people. Yeah. Um, so uh, and then my plea would be if they're if anyone listening has got any influence over learning and development they put on with their teams, I cannot overestimate the impact it has of people sitting in a room together. It could even be in a virtual room, like in a breakout space, but not pre-videoed static content that people just self-led learn, actually getting together, chatting things through, giving people some shared language so then they can actually have some psychologically safe conversations because you're chatting about that thing rather than me personally. Um, but that power of teens being able to come together is unbelievable. If there's I think there's nothing quite like it, Debs, because we're surrounded by knowledge, constantly things giving us stuff to think about. Yeah. But to sit there in an intimate environment and just reflect, share, catch up, plan can really make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah, I'm with you all the way on that, and I think that just proved how the simplest things can make the biggest difference. And I still love the fact that you know the design of that material that you did after hours of research with people was all about our bodies are the same body, and we react in the same way in our bodies, a physiological reaction, but how we cope with it in is individual, and I think that was the it was magic that happened in the room, and you know, we were very privileged to hear how people coped and they opened up. So I think my call to action would be to find what works for you. What would be a good grounding technique for you? So you come into the present, so you just pause. And I know we say this time and time again: just stop for a moment and breathe. Can you recognise where you're breathing from? We are breathing, but can you feel or know where it is in your body? So you're focusing in on that, and I think that that will make a huge difference. Um, and the other one we laughed at was Mel, our colleague, who sort of helped shape some of this, was she also said one of the things we could do was to suck a mint, and it was like that was so that was just like okay, because and then when you explained it, because that was eating and signals that the nervous system to the nervous system everything is actually gonna be okay. So that you know, and we had some jokes about what I'm gonna go out and buy a whole leap of mints and things like that, but little things, again the smallest things, so find what works for you. What's your grounding technique?

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Yeah, yeah. Love it. And next next time you're in a scenario and you're feeling totally overwhelmed, just pause for a moment and think. There are thousands of years of evolution on your side. Yeah, it's okay to not feel okay. The trick is you might need to do a manual override because the environment is always on, but we're designed to be uh, you know, have those on and off. Now, Debs, we thought this was a good um uh uh discussion. I cannot wait to hear the incredible treasures that I know are going to be shared with you for the uh next four parts of this five-part focus, where as a result of the work that we've been doing with industries who, with people who have these high-pressure, stressful, potentially quite traumatic um roles, what have they learned that they can then share with the rest of us about how to handle it? Whether it is the role that hobbies have, whether it's from a team perspective, whether it's just viewing things in a slightly different way. So I cannot wait. All as part of our five-part focus looking at healthy coping mechanisms.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

I'm so looking forward to it, Laura, because we're hearing from the people that do this stuff, and I think that makes it even more accessible for everybody. Because if you know they can do it, so can you. Yeah. Love them.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Debs, have a fantastic week. And um, yeah, thank you so much. And I really hope that uh I haven't spoilt your working week by visualising me in a Raquel Welch animal print bikini.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

I don't know if I might have some nightmares over that long. I'm not for sure if it suddenly comes into my mind in the like three o'clock in the morning. No, I know.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

I'm probably a little bit more well fed than my uh cave-dwelling ancestor. Maybe, but hold. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

You know how to cope with it though. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

I was gonna stay sitting, actually, followed by me. Um, so have a wonderful week. And uh love and see you next time. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secretsfromacoach.com or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating as it's easier for people to find us. And if you want to know more, visit our website www.secretsomacoach.com and sign up for our newsletter. Here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work.