296. People Dynamics Thinking

When there is lots of ongoing change that requires engagement and energy , we're prompted to ask an essential question: How do you navigate the complex emotions and perspectives that people bring into the workplace? And are there strategies to see ways to unlock toxic patterns to ensure progress?

Throughout this mini-series, we explore the world of quality human thinking in our ever evolving world of work. 

In this third episode, we are delighted to be joined by Organisational Dynamics expert Lindsey Thompson who explores how to spot the organisational dynamics that will be influencing how people behave and how to decode what to do to create harmony amid conflict. Its the unwritten 'scripts' that set the tone and culture, and having a frame of reference empowers us to notice, choose and take intelligent action. 

p.s.  This week, notice the moments where you can avoid getting caught up in patterns of behaviour that are toxic, unhelpful or damaging. 

Transcript

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Weather, Perspective, And Compassion

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Yes. Law, are you alright? Yeah, I'm alright. It's a bit hot and melty at the moment, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 0:17

It is, it is a little bit sticky out there, but um yeah, I don't mind. It's not raining, but my plants don't like it one bit. So bless them.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

And the thing about hot weather, very cold weather, lots of rain, whatever weather might be going on, whatever part of the world that you're listening into this on, it does sure give you a bit of empathy for people with whom have got the type of days where they can't sit in an air-conditioned office. Yes. Or nice and sheltered. Because actually sometimes it's uh, you know, you might be kind of getting very caught up in your own head and what's going on with yourself, but sometimes it's every now and then having a dose of compassion can completely change how you feel about something. And so we thought it would be really useful to focus on compassionate thinking in the second,

Why Compassionate Thinking Matters

SPEAKER_01 1:06

in our five-part focus, looking at human quality thinking. Could it be that our ability to think, whether that is strategically, compassionately, um, with some quality that's not just using AI in a way that enables us to think about dynamics and also review and reflect rather than dwell and get caught up in the past? And we've got five different takes that we're having on this huge big topic of thinking. Yeah. So, Debs, this focus is all about compassionate thinking. I know this is something that you felt really, really kind of um passionate about. So, what does compassion mean? And how come you absolutely wanted this as part of our quite part focused thinking about corners and human thinking?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, I think this is the one where we sometimes underestimate what somebody else might be going through. And we sometimes think, you know, um, we have no idea what somebody's backstory is, even coming into one of our training rooms or into a coaching session. We don't know how their journey's been, we don't know what's going on at home. Um and most of the time we don't know that full stop, even within our teams, unless you know, we have the time to have a conversation and have those real deep and meaningful, which in today's world we don't always have. We know that you know we're running a million miles an hour, so we don't necessarily stop and think. But I think one of the things I've learned nobody don't wake up in the morning, I think, and say that, right, how can I make somebody else's day worse? Um, that's not what happens. We're just people are carrying stuff that maybe we just can't see. And I think that's that's one of the things that really sort of fires me up is to say we never know what is going on for that individual. Um, and if we jump to conclusions or we assume or we prejudged it or we have our own perspective on it, then we're missing that opportunity to work together really, really well and just be kind. Um, I think it's you know, non-judgmental, really important. I know in the coaching world that's one of the things that we walk into any coaching session with is that non-judgmental. I always say, you know, we take you as I find you, whatever that might look like. And you know, we know that people they might be worried, Laura, they might have pressure, um, they might be overwhelmed with stuff, they may be grieving, um, they might be trying their best with the resources that they have to hand, but it might not be enough. Um, and then I think the one thing for me, it's always been there's always a story that sits behind how somebody shows up. Um, and I and it helps us build a stronger relationship.

DBAD And Nonjudgment In Practice

SPEAKER_00 3:43

And we always have our own little acronym about this, new, don't worry about D V A D, which came out of one of our workshops with some amazing people. Um, and I think that sort of sums it up basically. So um, if not anybody's heard of it, it's you know, um, that compassionate thinking is also don't be really.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

And um for uh anyone that's got little ears listening in the background, yes, this refers to uh you know Uncle Richard in the text. Um Dig Turpin. Dig Turpin, yes, absolutely dead. And in fact, I think that's become a motto for quite a few organizations, whether it's a kind of informal one or one that's just sort of behind the scenes, because the person that was on the leadership programme with us said uh that was basically her life motto that she'd been raised, uh her whole family went by that motto. And actually, we all kind of agreed, yes, could it all boil down to that? D B A D. And then I remember I said on the virtual, well, I can't write that as like the key takeaway from this leadership module that we're on. And also 17 of them said, Well, you can if we all put it as a key takeaway.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Exactly. They were all behind it, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

They were all behind it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

So it became a hashtag, didn't it, for it?

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yeah, it absolutely did. So they voted with their feet, and that became almost like the unofficial sort of motto from it. And and of course, when we're sitting here in a relaxed environment thinking, you know, high level about how do we want to be and the impact we have on others and what can't the robots do and all of that kind of big picture stuff, just shoe hauling it in depth. No, not the robots launched.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Nobody would ever have compassion.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Oh, well, they can talk a good game. Well, they can, yeah. I think uh to know that someone's actually bothering to be sort of compassionate. So just describe to us what is the difference between being compassionate and being overly soft and just accepting everything and letting people get away with not working or doing what they say they're gonna do. So my god, there are some scenarios of the boundaries around what compassion is and what it isn't. Yeah. And then once we sort of defined it, I'd love to get your take on what have you heard over the years that prevents people from being compassionate. So, first off, how would you define it? What is it? What isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:57

What is it? What oh my god, that's such

Curiosity Over Criticism

SPEAKER_00 5:59

a good question. So it's for me, it's about choosing curiosity over criticism. So if I can be asked myself the question, I wonder what's going on for them. Just that little one question, rather than jump down their throat or assume you know, if we can just stop and pause and and notice that that's not who they really are, or actually you may never know them, but you have no idea the way they've reacted, what might be going on. Um, and I think the way that compassion works is by just stopping and thinking, I wonder what's going on for them. Let me put myself in their position. Actually, I don't know what's going on for them. Um, and that's something so if I can ask that question, then I might actually show up with a bit more kindness and compassion because it's something that actually makes a huge difference to people. Um, and we can still, because I think it's a human, it's a real human connection in that moment just to show a level of kindness, a level of understanding, a level of awareness, really, that you've noticed that you know you're that person may be going through loads of excuse my language, but we we forget this one together. It was in the early days. Oh my god. But I think that's why it's so important because we forget that people are human beings and we just have no clue. Um, and if we just assume we know, or we jump to a conclusion, or we're basing it on, well, I'm there like that, why don't they answer that email? Um, you know, because I'm waiting for it. But we don't know that they may be struggling. We don't know they might be caring for a parent, a young person, they're you know, whatever it might be. Um, they may be just simply exhausted because, you know, for whatever reason, we have no idea what's going on, as I said, and they might just be having a bit of a bad day. So I think for me, compassion fills that gap, as you said, with with kindness instead of judgment. And just by asking the question, you know, with curiosity, I wonder what's going on with them. It just stops you from jumping to that conclusion. Um, because instead of reacting, we're responding in a very different way. And instead of making those assumptions, we're actually seeking to understand what's going on for them first. Um, and just by creating that connection with somebody, um, and I know we Linza said this for years, our colleague Linz, you know, where you might think somebody's not quite right, but they're not sharing. And it's that sentence we always say, look, I could be completely wrong. What I'm noticing is, and they may or may not tell you, but they know that you've cared enough about them to notice. And that could be that for me is compassion. I've cared enough to notice and check in with you. Um, because it costs nothing. You can still hold your boundaries, you can still challenge what you might see, um, and you can still hold people accountable for their actions, but you've got to remember that they're that they're just another human being. Um, and I think any leader who remembers that can actually have a team that will work and follow them to the end of this earth if they just bother enough to care.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yes, Debs.

When A Joke Lands Badly

SPEAKER_01 9:09

And what's interesting, we're recording this in summer, and I've spoken to a number of clients with whom having some sort of summer get-togethers and you know, kind of end-of-year celebrations and and uh and that kind of stuff. And um, I was at a networking event myself last week, and I witnessed something quite interesting happening, which was the conversation was all lighthearted, there were lots of different people who'd only just sort of met, then went for further drinks after, and then it all seemed at face value like there was this joke that everyone was joking around and finding funny, and then suddenly one of the group really made it clear that they didn't find it funny, and you saw everyone kind of go, Oh, uh, oh, right, okay, and it really just sort of shifted the kind of the mood. And then I remember thinking at my at that time, thinking, um, right, uh, I don't think it's that person being difficult. I think there's been, I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding here. I think actually, without realizing, if you've got sort of five or six people laughing along, and there's one person that actually about 30 seconds ago wasn't finding it so funny, suddenly that's quite a big group dynamic that is potentially making that person feel uncomfortable. And then when I did have a bit of a chat afterwards with them, um, it had reminded them of something else that hadn't turned into a very nice situation for them. But that compassion to then sort of think, hmm, I wonder what so it could be because I could feel myself going, oh, come on, it was only a joke, you know, and then thinking, hang on a minute here, actually. Let's just let's just have a bit of curiosity. Um, what what I my thought of it was everyone was then joking in. So I think any party season, any networking season, any conferences where where there's no compassion, things can suddenly become very spiky and very conflicty because it doesn't, you know, what it takes is then person three and four to get involved, and then you've got a grievance that comes through, you know, after Thursday night sort of social. So, um, so I think that that role of compassion, also if if you know energy is afraid a little bit, or there's some you know teen dynamics that aren't particularly great, that uh practicing that compassion of what might be going on and surface level, this might have looked all right, but actually everyone's got their own slightly different take on a conversation that they might have.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yeah, I think your spot on Laura, we've seen it where you can feel people feel uncomfortable in a room because somebody has said something. Um, and if you're like facilitating like we have, you know, we've done, we've clocked it maybe, and you know, it might be like, I wonder what's going on, yeah. That's my first question actually. I wonder what's going on for them because they reacted very differently. So it's not condoning that banter behavior, jokey, whatever it is, but it's questioning it even more. So I'm always a lover of saying if somebody drops something and people around laugh, but some people don't. I will always ask that person, I said, What was that all about? You know, what do you mean by that? So I'll question them even more. So I'm not gonna go, what's wrong with that person that hasn't reacted well? I'll ask the person that's saying it because they've said it. So there's always this element of right, you said it, you own it. So I'm gonna explore that more. And I do always say, Oh, that's interesting. Can I ask you a question about that? So I ask their permission, and they normally go, Yeah, okay. And then I'll ask, so what was all that about? What I noticed was say what you see, um, and then put it put it in the room, the specific. So what's going on for you right then? And they will either go two ways, very defensive, uh, or they will go, oh no, it was just it's just an in-joke. I apologize if I upset every anybody. So they will do a global room apology, and then you find they hold back um whatever it was, they don't do it again normally because we haven't just let it pass, because you can visibly, can't you, Laura, see some people get really upset at things, and yeah, and it's not about being soft. I think that's the other thing. That compassion isn't about being soft. Um, you know, I think it's about you know, because some of the managers and leaders we've worked with have the highest expectations of what people are, but what the difference is is they're very respectful when holding people accountable. And you know, we could say compassion and accountability aren't opposites, they are partners. So if if somebody has said it, they own it, and you then to have that ability to question it and say, Well, what's that all about? Where's that come from? You know, and and not shy away from that, that I think is respect, self-awareness, managing emotions, being responsible for the people in the room that you're looking out for, um, not is not okay. Um, and it's coming from a respect position that actually in that moment I'm okay and you're okay. Um, and if somebody feels they're not okay, then that has to be questioned with curiosity. But I normally will say, What's that all about? You know, tell me more. That's interesting you've reacted that way. What's going on for you? What made you say that? And you can see it, and I you know, yeah. We've all been there where people go, oops. So I'm not calling it out in the way that's like bloody hell, why did you say that? Not that very gentle, very kind. Oh, that's interesting. What made you say that?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Quiet now. I want to move on to what gets in the way, but I'll tell you what I think got in the way for that networking event.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah, tell us.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

So there were seven people guzzling alcohol, basically. I was one of them. And there was one non-drinker. And when I had a little chat with a non-drinker after, they said, Yeah, basically, I could just feel all of the energy getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And I think it was just missed communication that then just stuck a bit in a way that no one intended. So, um, in in in our scenario, I think it was one Negronies too many, but it was I'd love to, which actually could be relevant for some of the work things we're going into, you know, party season and you know, and uh events and socials, and maybe you've got some tickets, you're going with your team to a festival or whatever, whatever your life is. All I know is that I'm I bet there are some Monday mornings where HR are going, right, let's just see what comes in now. Yeah. But I'd like to get your take from your coach perspective and facilitate, I guess, is what prevents someone being able to think compassionately.

What Blocks Compassion Under Stress

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Well, that's such a good question. I suppose over the years, what I've noticed, and also with myself, is it's our own stress levels, it's our own feeling of overwhelm ourselves, whatever might be going on for us. Um, because I think when we are overwhelmed, our own brain, we can become more judgmental because our brain is currently looking for shortcuts because it hasn't got the capacity to be able to deal, um, to deal with anything else or anything that's not quite sitting right. So it's very quick to judge, um, and it's also very quick to just find the shortcut, find the easiest way out normally. Um, because I think compassion takes a level of intention. And when somebody always says to me, Well, that wasn't my intent when I said that. Yeah, but the impact you had, it was horrendous. What was going on for you? Well, that wasn't my intent. I said, Yeah, but you still did it. So it's an awareness of what that means, but knowing that it's normally driven because of our own overwhelm, we're tired, we're stressed, our brain is looking for shortcuts to you know to move forward from it. Um, and that's you know, we just have to recognise that if we're not in a good headspace, it's the ability to sort of think, okay, um, I probably won't answer that, or I probably won't get involved in that because I'm just in a pos in myself, I'm not in a good, I'm not in a good position. I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed, I've got loads of pressure, and I might say something without really thinking it through. So I won't.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

You you've reminded me, I've been running a lot of communication with impact um sessions for um for a client, and there's just

Sonder And Perceptual Positioning

SPEAKER_01 17:05

been some glorious conversations we've had there in the room. Um, number one, do you remember there was one of the directors at the DBAD client actually, who um taught us the German word sonder, for which there's no English translation. And sonder is the the word of it describes the sudden and vivid realization that everyone else's life is as complicated as yours.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Oh, wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Yeah, and it's that, and whenever I've kind of dropped that, there's just every now and then people have put that as like a final takeaway of sonder. Like you're sitting there as part of the project team going, them lot over there aren't giving us the information they need. Yeah. You then go and see them lot, yeah, and you realize, you know, they're on depleted resources, yeah. Half of them are off, you know, or being made made redundant, they're not sitting there trying their thumbs. Everyone is trying to cope with sort of what they're doing. But there's a tool that I know is one of our kind of go-to favorites that I just think is so useful for moments like this, the perceptual positioning tool. You've got these four perspectives. So there's you in the middle, so right, what's going on for me? But it's them thinking them, so what's going on for them? Then you've got a swine on the wall, right? Just hold it right there, sister. Let's just take a breath. Take a breath, take a breath. Think about that internal observer, and then your magic thing of oh, that's interesting. Tell me more. So it just gives you some thinking time, and then the fourth perception is the long game. In hindsight, what is the impact I want to make on this? And if at the very minimum D B A D, then in the absence of having your five core values, you know, that's the that's that's as good as any to sort of withhold to. Yeah, but it requires emotional intelligence, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

It really does, Lloyd. It it does require that check-in. And I think that's why you know you hear people say that when they get up in the morning, they have their rituals and routines that they do that just calms them or gets them ready for the day ahead. And it's those little things that can help your brain, your mind be in a better position, a better place, and acknowledging that you know, actually, there's been loads going on. I may not be in the best place possible, but that's not gonna stop me from still doing what I need to do. Um, but I have an awareness of it because um it caught, you know, if we understand it, then when you know we have less emotional exhaustion from that, we have better relationships, we have greater emotional resilience, which is something I think that we we do need to maybe work on sometimes. And that trigger reaction that we can have um doesn't always help us at all. And then it's normally if we're if it's really bad, there's a feeling of remorse and regret after. Um, and we always think because your brain has just gone in straight into something's happened and it's just acted rather than something's happened, think about it and then act accordingly. So we miss, we used to call it taking the high road or the low road, I think. And the low road just goes from you know, what's happened to doing, and then the high road goes from what's happened, think, then do. Um, and it's just an interesting way to just stop and think. But you do need to know how you're feeling. So checking in with yourself, you know, am I in good space or not so good space? It is that social, I suppose it's that, as you said, the emotional regulation, the self-awareness that we all talk about till the cows come home, but some people just don't have it or don't want to access it, and that's when we say hashtag D B A D.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah. Yeah. But I love how you linked compassion with accountability, you know, and and and uh and also I guess what you're talking there is that sort of self-compassion. But tie it all up for us, Debs. Yeah. So our our belief when we were planning this all out is actually compassion is that key to better relationships. So what would uh yeah, what would your sort of thoughts be around how practicing compassion

Compassion With Accountability

SPEAKER_01 20:57

and the impact that then has on quality relationships?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Oh my god, I think it's and it's that quote that we use, my Angela's quote, right? Doesn't matter what people say or how they said it, but they will never forget how they made you feel. And I think that's that's the thing. People will remember how you made them feel. Um, and if you're making them feel like rubbish, they're gonna think that. So if we have compassion or we approach it from a compassionate place, actually that builds trust. Um, and then trust creates a better performance, better relationship, better togetherness. Um, and therefore it just makes a real big difference to how that relationship is going. Um, and I think the other question I always ask people when, especially in coaching, if they're berating themselves or berating somebody or whatever, before reacting, I always say, What else could be true though? So the question to ask them, or or yourself even, is before you react, it's that bit that says, What else could be true? And it's enough to stop you from going down that. Reaction route, it's enough to go, oh, actually, I'm not sure. Okay, so but that's self-discipline as well. I think that's holding your regulation, your emotional regulation. There's a lot of stuff that goes into it. And when we're heightened, we're emotional, as I said, we're exhausted, we're tired, when we're under stress, then our capacity to do that is lessened. So we have to recognise you know, with our riches, we tell how do we check in on ourselves every morning? How do we close the day down at the end of the day? You know, what it is that we need to do to help us take a breath, take a pause, whatever it might be, that you know, I don't know really what's going on for them. So before I judge them, I'm gonna maybe be curious. I love that, Debs.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Because if I don't have space for me, how can I have space for others? And then that's me, they're safe then within that. So you're compassionate, but you are confident that you're not gonna get walked all over. Yeah, absolutely. Caught up in all that sort of the drama that means you know you're carrying all these loads for sort of people.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, I think so, Law.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah. So what would be your one cause? What would be your your call to action? And I love how we've defined compassion. It's not about being soft, in fact, it actually being compassionate could require some very assertive behaviours of where you're saying to someone, you know, I could be wrong, but this is what I'm noticing. So that requires courage and assertiveness. So these are strength, this is a strength-based um uh set of behaviours, isn't it? Or set of thinking. So, what would be your um one, your call to action for anyone who's thinking, yeah, actually I want to refocus on my compassionate

A Simple Pause Before You React

SPEAKER_01 23:38

thinking?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah, I like that. So I suppose my call to action would be before you judge someone or you're about to say something without thinking, take that breath and pause for a moment and ask yourself, what might I not know that's going on for that individual? Um, you might never discover the answer, but the fact is that you have taken that pause moment has made a difference because you know, as we say, people may be fighting a battle we know nothing about, we have no clue what's going on for them. Um, so if we were to, I suppose, lead from from a compassionate standpoint. So what don't I know? I wonder what's going on for them. Um, and then we listen with curiosity. I think that's the other thing I would say, just keep listening to what they say, judge a little less, love a little more, because that kindness is never wasted on people. So yeah, compassion is the way to go when we're thinking.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

I love that, Debs. So my share the secret would be let's say you've got a mate who's working in an environment at the moment where there does seem to be quite a lot of Uncle Richards around. Dick Turpin is making many journeys, either on remote interactions or real-world interactions, and uh you can see they're getting more and more wound up, and actually it's really stressing them out. Get them to listen to this because even if that just means taking a pause, and this too shall pass, and that's part of working with humans, is we can't all have everything in our lives going perfectly, um, but equally, nor can we rescue every person that's around us. So that compassionate thinking almost seems to be like that sweet spot of that strength, um, but also with those boundaries as well. So get us a listen to this. If you can see that you've got a friend who's just getting really, really kind of jaded and faded with all of the people stuff that's going around them, get them to listen to this, even if that just sometimes is reassuring knowing that actually this is going on everywhere, it's not a sign of someone not being a great colleague or a great friend or a great leader.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

It's just it is, and we have no idea what people are going through unless we stop and ask. So, yeah, make it your mission to stop and ask, I suppose. But you might not get the answer, but at least people know you care. So, yeah. Loved it. So, what are we talking about next?

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Well, we are doing all of the quality thinkings, so we are taking

Next Week And How To Connect

SPEAKER_01 26:05

a number of different perspectives. Now, what we're going to be looking at next week, which is so exciting, we're going to get joined by the legend that is Lindsay Thompson.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

We are.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

And she is going to be taking us through dynamics, team dynamics, and how might you navigate and think your way around. If you've got a snarling nest of vipers and someone has said to you, right then, that's your team. Okay, then. Um, how might I navigate that? And uh, you know, when temperatures rise, if if nerves are frazzled, if everything's all getting a little bit much, then Lynn's, I know, will just give us some really practical ways of being able to navigate and think our way through team dynamics. So I'm so looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, me too, Laura. And in the meantime, have a come and passionate thinking week. Thank you. You're very welcome.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Debs. And um, I know you're not personally a partaker of Negronies, but I'm not. No. But uh just just we'll just watch ourselves on these various kinds of uh socials. Oh no, uh yes, and uh you never know when you have unintentionally stepped over a line, but yeah, and it's happened, and it's about being compassionate and being able to kind of take some wisdom from that. So, yes, may this be a gentle, easy week for your dads.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Thank you very much, Lor. You have a good one. See you later, lovely.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

See you, lovely. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast. We'd love to hear from you. Email us at contact at secrets from a coach.com or follow us on Insta or Facebook. If you're a Spotify listener, give us a rating as it's easier for people to find us. And if you want to know more, visit our website www.secretsome a coach.com and sign up for our newsletter. Here to cheer you on and help you thrive in the ever-changing world of work.