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Virago 24/7
Virago 24/7 is a podcast for women who are done shrinking.
I’m your host, Lyanette Talley—mother, wife, truth-teller, and warrior in progress.
Here is where we unlearn silence, honor our roots, and reclaim our voices.
We talk real life—identity, marriage, motherhood, leadership, and healing—with boldness and truth.
If you’ve ever been told you’re too loud, too much, or too ambitious...
You’re exactly where you need to be.
This is everyday growth. Everyday healing. For everyday warriors.
We’re not shrinking. We’re taking up space.
Virago 24/7
Beyond the Vows Part 1
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When Philip and I escaped to Tybee Island, little did we know that our new condo's acoustics would become the backdrop for a heart-to-heart on marriage that's as real as it gets. It's not every day you find two lovebirds willing to spill the beans on keeping the fires burning after 18 years, but here we are—juggling humor, honesty, and a dash of warrior spirit. Join us as we wander through the winding paths of partnership, from the profound to the practical (yes, even dishwasher loading strategies make the cut), and how we're tackling the Four Laws of Love with two feet firmly on the ground.
Step into our living room as Philip unpacks insights from his men's group about the trials of marriage and divorce, while I reflect on the steps we've taken to ensure our relationship remains the main event, kids notwithstanding. We're talking full transparency here—the deep dives into communication, the perils of 'agreeing to disagree,' and those pivotal vulnerabilities that turn trust from a buzzword into the bedrock of our bond. And for those wondering about the longevity of love, we share our secrets to dodging the infidelity bullet and keeping the connection as exhilarating as a first date.
So, what's the takeaway from two nearly-two-decade veterans of matrimony, you ask? It's the art of prioritizing one another, the importance of shared happy places (couple's vacations for the win!), and the transformative power of facing conflicts head-on, no holds barred. Tune in for an episode that's less about presenting a flawless love story and more about the grit and grace it takes to carve out a fulfilling journey, together.
Go to my website http://www.virago247.net for all things Virago 24/7
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Everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors!
Music by Deli Rowe: "Space to Move"
Logo by Kaylin Talley
Hi, I am your host, Lyanette Talley, and you are listening to Virago 24-7. Virago is Latin for female warrior and 24-7 is for all day, every day. Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcast that brings diverse women together to talk about life and our experiences in this world. We share our views on self-love, mental health, marriage, children, friendships and really anything that needs to be talked about. Here you will find everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors. Hello. I always try to figure out a new way of starting the show, but hello is always what comes to my mind. So boring, so generic, but hello everybody. Virago has hit the road and I actually brought my equipment. The acoustics here are so much better than there are in my she Cave, but I brought my microphones and my equipment and we are in Tybee Island, Georgia, in our new condo and I have my partner in crime here.
Speaker 2Felipe, hey, beautiful people.
Speaker 1Hello, how can I start my show? You know, in a very exciting way. I'm always like hello, that's so boring. Hey, that's you, though, that's all I got. Oh, you guys heard that. I mean it's you, that's your personality.
Speaker 2I got you, let's back.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, you be you. Don't worry about being somebody else. I thought you were. I thought you were calling me boring because I know that's the last thing you are just what?
Speaker 1yesterday or the day before, I was like you were laughing at me and I said I got to keep you on your toes and you call me crazy. And I said, yes, I am, because we got to keep things exciting. So I got to bring the crazy out because you, it's like a sneak attack. I don't want you to get bored with me, felipe. Like we said, I don't need you getting bored with me. So, anyways, we are here away from my she cave and I like the acoustics here and the she cave. It is like a cave. So we sometimes have to, like you know, watch how we talk into the microphone.
Speaker 2But today, yeah, it's nice, it's a cloudy day, but we're happy.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2We're in our happy place.
Speaker 1This has become my happy place. So, anyways, we're here today because we like to talk and Philip has some things that he wants to bring to Virago. Why?
Speaker 2Philip has something to bring to Virago.
Speaker 1Oh well, okay, Fine, okay, we have some stuff that we want. Listen, we like to talk about marriage.
Speaker 2We've done it a few times and yeah, actually my first time on here was talking about marriage.
Speaker 1Why are you trying to sound all sexy and stuff?
Speaker 2I mean that's just my voice.
Speaker 1You brought a little bit low where you're like yeah wait, that's my radio voice. That's your radio voice. All right, let me hear your radio voice, philip. Hey beautiful people, I'm a lucky, lucky lady. I get to hear that voice every day. Yes, you are Actually.
Speaker 1Actually, I do like that deep voice. Sometimes I'm like, all right, back it up, say that again, and you get all embarrassed and stuff and I say it again and then you say it again, all right, so no, anyways, it's interesting because we've been wanting to talk about marriage things not that we're experts or anything, but we like to talk about it because we're going on 18. No, we are at 18, not going on 18. We're going on 19. Oh damn. Yeah.
Speaker 1Man, I'm not really on it, but it's ironic that we've been pushing it off. Pushing it off, and I think this is a good time because in your men's group, as we've mentioned before, you're a part of a men's group at a church in our area, at your church, at our church. It's a long story, people, it's a long story for another time, but you're a part of a men's group and you guys are actually talking.
Speaker 2Well, last Friday we had a men's group discussion on marriage and one of our members is does divorce care at our, at our church, and he was the person leading the discussion and I thought it was perfect because you know, we've been talking about having a discussion on marriage. And then he had us. He wanted us to watch a video prior to coming into our men's group that morning and he requested that you watch the video with your wife. And so we watched the video, you and I, on the Four Laws of Marriage by Jimmy Evans, and then Robert had a bunch of questions on marriage and divorce, and so I agreed to even answer the divorce questions.
Speaker 1Cause I told you this morning sometimes I forget I was married. We're walking, he's like we're going to talk about marriage and there's some questions on there, but you know we can't relate to the divorce questions, so we'll just skip those. And I'm like, um, you know, you've been divorced, like you were married before me and there was a whole divorce. And you're like, oh yeah, I forgot about.
Speaker 2I do.
Speaker 1I'm like do you really? I do, you can't do that. You can't forget about your first marriage.
Speaker 2That's true. It's funny, cause, um, as Robert was going around asking, we asked everyone to um, cause we have some new members in our men's group. So he asked everyone to say you know how many years you've been married? You know the age of your kids? And so one of the guys said, well, this is my first marriage. And of course we started laughing like okay, you're about to have a second one. And uh, so then, as I was talking, I was like, oh yeah, cause you know, I was the last person to talk, cause we went around the table and I happened to be the last person where I was seated, and so I had to think about it. I was like, oh yeah, this is not my first marriage, but yeah, it's not something I usually think about anyway, so, it is what it is.
Speaker 1Well, here we are All right. Since this is you know I know it's my podcast, but I feel like you want to drive this train, I'll take over the wheel when I feel like I need to.
Speaker 2Yeah, like you do in real life.
Speaker 1Yes, I'm going to have you leave, but if you're not driving the train the way I thought you should drive it, I'm just going to take it over.
Speaker 2Like you tried to do when we were driving.
Speaker 1Okay, Okay, Listen, Phillip, when we were driving here, right there's a strip like okay, if anybody has ever been to South, like south of Georgia, like you go through Macon, from Macon to Savannah, they're doing a lot of construction. It's been probably the past 15 years, the same kind of construction and they're making some progress, but there's there's still some stuff going on and there's like these concrete barriers and a lot, of, a lot of curves going on on this highway and you were like driving with one arm drinking from the other, like taking these, these curves, like like you were a race car driver or something at night, in the dark. And let me clarify.
Speaker 1It was. It was I thought I was, I was holding on from for dear life Like.
Speaker 2I was drinking a Red Bull Because, you know, and that's like you drinking on one hand and driving all crazy. So no, I wasn't drinking.
Four Laws of Marriage Exploration
Speaker 1You were hugging those curves. And I said listen, I want to make it down to the beach Because I've been looking forward to this for the past few weeks and I'm not. I'm not ready to like go to heaven yet Got it, so anyways. So, yeah, sometimes I got to. You know, be a backseat driver, Call it what you want. Call it what you want. All right, when?
Speaker 2are we going to start? Where are we going to start? We're going to start with some marriage questions, the Four Laws of Marriage. Okay, let's talk about that first. Let's do that, let's do that.
Speaker 1So that's what the video was about.
Speaker 2So the video it says Four Laws of Marriage and a couple of things that he talked about is the Four Laws. You know, if you follow these Four Laws it will make sure that your marriage is successful. Okay, 100% chance for success in marriage when you do these Four Laws of Love. He says.
Speaker 1Okay. So before we get into the Laws, do you feel like people get into marriages without really thinking about who they're marrying and that's why there's a lot of divorce? Or even if you quote, unquote, pick the one that maybe wasn't meant for you, do these laws, if you follow these laws, could they work? I feel like we get into marriages that with the wrong person, but would these laws work? What do you think?
Speaker 2Would these laws work if you married the wrong person?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2That's a good question.
Speaker 1I know this is why I'm here Hard hitting questions. I should be on TV somewhere.
Speaker 1Doing the evening news, asking the hard hitting questions, we go off track. We were watching the morning show on Apple TV with Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston and a bunch of other people. Steve Carrell is in there, but yeah, I feel like man, that was my, that was my path. But then I'm watching the show. I'm like there's a lot of freaking drama behind the scenes and I don't know. I don't know if I would have worked well in that environment.
Speaker 1I was going to say. I was going to say made it. But I'm like I could have made it. Yeah, I just probably wouldn't have worked well in those environments with these men. Anyways, go on. So I know. Okay, back on track.
Speaker 2But so that's a good question, but these four laws work with the wrong person. I don't know.
Speaker 1Okay. So in your first marriage, whether we say it was wrong person or not, if you had followed these laws, do you think you would still be married to her? Oh, that is a very good question, all right. Well, let's go through the laws and then you can answer the question.
Speaker 2Let me look at that because, as I go through the laws and I'll think, I'll think about that and then I'll come back and answer your question. Okay, so let me do that. All right.
Speaker 2All right. So the first law is law. Well, this is all coming from Genesis to 2425. Therefore, shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh and they will both naked, the man and his wife, and we're not ashamed. So, based on those two verses, he came up with the four laws of marriage. And the first law is law of priority A man shall leave his father and mother. If you have to choose, you choose your spouse over family, parents, in-laws, children. Your spouse has priority over family. So that's the first law. And that means the most important person in relationship is your. In your life is your spouse, other than your relationship with Jesus? She has top priority over anything else. She comes first, and most of the things that destroy marriages are good things that are out of priority. What do you think of?
Speaker 1that. I think that's right. I feel like with us that's how it is. We love our children, we love our families, but you and I come first, above all of that 100%.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think I've already told you this, but, as our pastor said last Sunday that he tells his kids all the time I chose my wife, I was stuck, I was stuck with y'all, or something like that. So, but you know, and our kids know, our number one priority not that they're not a priority, but they're going to be gone and this kind of goes to one of the things that we'll talk about but that Robert brought up was that most he said, what do you think, out of all these years I've been doing divorce care and all the books that you read, when does, when does the divorce happen?
Speaker 1When the kids are grown.
Speaker 2Exactly when they're out the house.
Speaker 1A lot of them.
Speaker 2A lot of them. He said the majority of the marriages happened then because, you know, the priority has been their kids. And now the kids are gone and they really don't know their wife or their husband and now they're like who are you? You're not the person. I married and I've been devoted, or we've been devoted to our kids and they've been number one priority, not us.
Speaker 2I'd still go back to, and I have to thank Carolyn, my sisters that was one of the things she did early on in our marriage was to say, hey, y'all need to have a vacation and, like Robert always tells us, you know, vacation is with your wife. When you go on a trip with your kids, that's a family trip. That's not a vacation, it's not at all. So we made a priority because Carolyn and still dead in us to go have a vacation once a year, just the two of us, and it is definitely the best thing that we've ever done for our marriage. So long priority. I agree with that 100%. Your marriage, your wife, have to be first over kids, over parents. If you have to choose hopefully you don't have to, but your marriage has to be a number one priority, all right. So that's number one. I don't think we have any input on that.
Speaker 1No.
Speaker 2All right. So you have to pursue and show cleave unto his wife. And he says that cleave in the original Hebrew means to pursue with all your energy. Cleave means like to climb a mountain. It means to use all your energy for something. So marriage is work. From the very beginning God told us marriage is work and it doesn't work unless you work at it. We have this romantic misconception that if I have to work at the relationship there's something wrong with it. And a lot of people truly believe if I have to work at my marriage, it means I didn't marry my soulmate. Tell me what do you think it up?
Speaker 1Well, even though I believe that we we've always said that there's multiple soulmates, so we feel like we, our souls, are super connected, but we still have had to quote, unquote work on it, and so I feel like that's. The other question is like what cause? I feel like there's some people that are in marriages that aren't meant to be and it's just like like it's truly working and it's taxing and it's like, and so people are it's. I think it's dangerous to say, oh, marriage is work, marriage is work, marriage is work, and so when people are really truly working at it but it's really not going anywhere, they feel like, oh, this is what marriage is, and they kind of stay in it.
Speaker 1I get that and that's what the mindset, or that's what has been preached is marriage is work. Marriage is work. I think there's a difference.
Speaker 2Well, the difference is if you had to add this one last little sentence to that. But you have to see good results.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2You can't always be working. Yeah, and think that cause you have. Once you see the result, a good result from the work that you put in, then you know, I don't know, I just, I don't know, for some reason I don't like.
Speaker 1I don't like that phrase. Marriage is work. Right, because some people are working hard. Yeah, you're right, and it's not going anywhere Cause you're not getting rich.
Speaker 1But they feel like this is, this is what it should feel like. I feel like, yeah, it's work, but it shouldn't be like taxing on your spirit, on your soul. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, your emotions might be. You know, there's times where I've been crying to you or you've been upset or I've been upset, but deep down it's not really like, it's not detrimental to my spirit. It's just that situation and I know in my heart that this is just something that we have to overcome, to pass it. There's a difference between knowing like this is temporary versus like, wow, this is what this person brings out of me is like the sadness, or this this again, this is the result.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's the result.
Speaker 1And that's dangerous to always say, oh, it's work, it's work, it's work for them, the people that are really yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2You know you have to get, you have to put in some work to be intentional. You know, that's the word I love to use.
Speaker 1So okay. So I know we have a lot of conversations about marriage. I don't remember if I heard this on a podcast on the radio, if it was in the video, but or you taught you and I talked about it about in our work. We take continue education classes. Was that with you? Okay, so we take a lot of courses to get, better to get better. And then with marriage, it's like we don't, we don't do yeah.
Speaker 2So what was that was with you, right? Robert actually opened up the discussion after he asked everyone you know how long they've been married? And then he said well, how many of you at work have to take continue education courses and how many of you have to do team building at work and you know, do you have to get cert, certifications and upkeep and stuff like that? So you know, obviously the majority of the guys said yes, they do. They kept, you know, they raised, they rose the end. So he said, well, this is funny, but all of us are married. So how many of y'all actually like take some courses on marriage, read books on marriage? I mean, if you can do this at work, you should be able to do this on your marriage, because it's not going to happen just because you wake up every morning that your marriage is going to be amazing. So those were. He made a good point because you know not, as many hands went up when he asked those questions. You know, how many times did y'all take a course on it?
Speaker 2And then I think the church had offered one and one of the guys was like, yeah, you know, the church offered one like a year or two ago, and he said yeah, so I just took one and then the other kind of group was like yeah, but that really was like three or four years ago, so you know that was a great point, because you know we're married and it's not like something just going to osmosis, you're just going to get better with it.
Speaker 1And I think also I mean, you know some people I know we've read books or we've read certain things, but maybe not everyone is into that kind of stuff. But I also think, sitting down and just talking I don't know how, how, I know we do that, but I don't know how common that is for people to really sit down and talk to and really talk about the real thing yeah, do you think that happens often Of?
Speaker 2course not.
Speaker 1I don't think so yeah yeah, yeah, you just want to just throw things under and put it in a closet.
Speaker 2Yeah. Sweep it under the rug, put it in the couch cushions with pennies, all right, you know, put it in a suitcase and keep it there and, you know, still walk around with it. So, and the other things on the law pursuit says it needs of a woman to one woman needs to have security, open and honest communication, soft, non-sexual affection and leadership. Needs of a man honor and respect, sex friendship, domestic support. What do you think of that?
Speaker 1I agree 100%.
Speaker 2I agree, I agree 1000%. And if you practice the law pursuit, you tell your spouse your first. You're not a burden, you're not a distraction. I love serving you. What do you need? Serving each other is the only way a marriage works. Any comment on that?
Speaker 1I mean, it's true. So the times where I feel yes, for sure I don't want to speak for all women, but I think the majority of us do want that security and the times where I felt insecure were times where I wasn't feeling insecure Like you were showing that, like I wasn't a priority, that other things were a priority and I just have to deal with certain things. It is what it is, this is who I am, this is what I do types, personality, and so it would. It didn't feel secure, right, and I acted very insecure, right, especially since I'm a competent, freaking woman. You made me feel insecure is a lot of the times when you, I didn't feel like I was a priority 100% yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think with you know me, that's what you wanted.
Speaker 2Yeah, but I had those discussions.
Law of Partnership in Marriage
Speaker 1Yes but I think a lot of the times you weren't listening to me. You were, you were hearing, but you weren't like truly listening. I feel like in the past few years I have finally caught on. Yeah, I do, don't you think? Why did it take you so long, philip? It took you like 15 years.
Speaker 2That's true, I'm a flawed individual. Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 1You know, you know what. And I was patient. Don't say that I wasn't you were patient.
Speaker 1Don't say don't say that I'm not a patient person because I was patient. No, I mean, I'm not saying it's all you, but in in that realm of me feeling secure, I I feel like in the past, maybe four to five years, I really no, no, that's too many years. Maybe in the past two to three years, from being honest with myself, where I feel very secure in who I am and You've helped with that but also to be honest with you in the back of my head is like I'm secure and, whatever Happens, I feel like in the past I was always like looking Okay, the next shooter yes.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, yes, and if the shoe drops, I'm good, I'm gonna be okay, right, and I knew that before. But now I really truly feel that, yeah, and I think that's when you started step up. No, I'm kidding, no, I'm kidding. You've always been, you've always been amazing.
Speaker 2but but I've been more intentional. Yes, that's true, you're right. Yeah, I agree with that 100%. Yeah, All right was number three law of partnership, okay, and it says, as they shall be one. So felt selfishness is the main problem in marriages selfishness, selfishness, selfishness. Okay, I'm sorry, let me say that word.
Speaker 1So that's okay. I have some words like worship sauce. It's something probably and anything that has a T in the middle, like paint, paint and pay cotton, cotton button, but Anything with a T, I feel like you have some issues with that and we're such a sauce.
Speaker 2Yes. But I don't think I'm the only selfishness and make is the main problem in marriages. If I'm okay, then you're okay. That's, you know, selfish. I need you to be like me. Hmm, think like me, make decisions like me, put the way the dishes like me, same problems, priorities. Like me, I had the dishes part. That that's not. That's.
Speaker 1That's not part of that's not on the, because I was like, oh, that one, that one they had owned in it.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1I mean, I have a system and I wish I would love to give a course on how to properly Put dishes in a dishwasher. There's a system to make it efficient that most people aren't aware of. You start from the back to the front. The bulls go in certain sections, the place go in certain sections. Yeah, and I try not to add Big items like big pots or pans. I rather wash those by hand so that they don't take up a lot of space in the dishwasher. Anyways, that's a side note. It is definitely that if you guys need sharing, if you need me to come to your home to give a tutorial on how to properly Fill a dishwasher efficiently on your girl, okay, the one yes, all right.
Speaker 2There can be no dominance, no bullying. Dominance means I don't respect you as an equal. Everything has to be my way. Partnership means you and your spouse are equals. Everything I have belongs to you. You make all your decisions together, you talk about it, you pray about it and you come to an agreement. You have to be equal partners for marriage to work. No one can control the relationship. That's the law of partnership. You have to share. Being selfish doesn't work.
Speaker 1All right. What do you think about that? How do we, what grade do we get on this now? Well, yeah, well, no, okay. Sometimes we forget about in 18 years. What's wrong with this?
Speaker 2And this is what I shared in the men's group, because robbers like, hey, what did you get from the video? And I said so, being selfish Because you know being I mean, you're dating people up until that point, obviously got married, but Prior to that, I think everyone's really selfish when it's just it's just you. So all you think about is yourself and what makes you happy, what pleases you, what are you gonna do that day, what are you gonna eat. And then, when you get married, all of that has to switch and that doesn't switch or change.
Speaker 2Maybe it becomes easy for others, but that was hard not being selfish early on in marriage, in our marriage. So that that was a learning thing. You know I have to think about, okay, well, what would lean at one or what. You know that's not something that comes natural. I think most people are very selfish people. So that was a key part, as you do have to share you, and I think you have Made me a more generous person. I think that's one of the many things that you have made me be a better person, because I am definitely a lot more generous and not as selfish as I used to be, and that's all because of you oh for sure, that's so true.
Speaker 2So yeah, selfishness is a big thing, because I mean you have to surrender.
Speaker 1How have I been selfish in our marriage?
Speaker 2Mmm, let me think about that. That's a good question.
Speaker 1You should say you haven't lean at. You've always been selfless.
Speaker 2All right, let me think about that. I'm curious that question. Have you been selfish? Hmm that's actually probably one of your Many yes, because I actually can't think Well, no, no, no, oh.
Speaker 1Oh, oh, oh you thought of something in 18 years. There's one thing everybody, what is it?
Speaker 2because I was reading this. I need to think like me, make decisions like me, and I don't think like you.
Speaker 1Yeah, I don't selfish that is okay, because you won't, because we have arguments about I know, but the way I think it's like Like the right way of thinking.
Speaker 2Mmm.
Navigating Marriage Dynamics and Communication
Speaker 1Okay, so most of the time, 98% of the time right, it's just that 2%. That's you percent. That selfish I mean. The fact that you had to think about it says a lot, Ladies and gentlemen hey, you win, you're in in the quarter, okay. I Mean I have a lot of things to work on, but I try to be selfless when I can. That's why I get so upset. Sometimes I'm like I do everything. I.
Speaker 2Yeah, so you're definitely all in on that's true, and it's a lot of.
Speaker 1I'm a very dynamic person, always See the one side or the other. Everything no middle never.
Speaker 2Yes, well, I got better those words hold off.
Speaker 1Hold up, wait a minute. You've taught me well. I Started off that way. Yes, I have moments where I'm like and then I have to stop myself.
Speaker 1It's an opportunity for growing in 18 years of marriage, I've really Aware of the all or none For a mentality. Yes, I don't do that anymore because they're crazy. And then when I hear other people do and I was like, yeah, it really stands out. When you hear other people do it right 100%, I'm like, why be so? All or nothing, people. And then I have to remember okay, I used to be like that it takes time people. It takes time to To to work through these issues. Yeah, all right. So the last law, number four law of purity.
Speaker 2Adam and his wife were both naked and they felt no shame. Naked means open and Exposed. Insipacy can only occur in a relationship where you're careful about what you say and Do and you take responsibility for what you've done wrong. Your spouse will not open up to someone with a smart mouth who is sarcastic, has the wrong tone when they talk. Trust is earned and drops and lost in buckets. It can take a long time to earn and regain a person's trust. When an atmosphere of purity exists, you're careful about what you say and what you do. When you make a mistake, you immediately take responsibility for it and ask for forgiveness. When you can talk with complete safety, this is when true intimacy occurs. Thoughts and I know you have a bunch of them on that, or maybe not. I think you just like spaced out.
Speaker 1I was talking whatever can you repeat the question please?
Speaker 2Earn and drop and lost in buckets. Be careful in what you do, what you say and what you did. What you do and that Was that your spouse will not open up to someone with a smart mouth into me can only current relationship where you're careful about what you say and do.
Speaker 1Okay, maybe I zone doubt, because you're really mumbling through that. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's just love purity. Your spouse will not open up to someone with a smart mouth.
Speaker 1I got a smart mouth and I do have to pay attention to it.
Speaker 2It's all about trust. When I feel like you trust that person, okay, then you'll be more vulnerable. With yes, you'll be more open and, yeah, you have to be careful about yes, breaking that trust with someone.
Speaker 1I can relate to that very, very, very much. I do have a smart ass mouth and I realized when I use a smart ass mouth, thinking them, you know it's, it's a defense mechanism. If you think about it, sure it makes you shut down. So I've had to learn to not use the smart ass mouth but still be able to speak how I feel, but in a more respectful way. And then I feel when I've done that, I've got more out of you than just when I'm being sarcastic because I better respond.
Speaker 1I feel like that's more my nature and then with you, you me feeling safe enough to bring something up and Feel like I'm being heard, because in the beginning I Would hold that stuff to myself. It would be faster, and then I would explode, vomit all over you with my words and and. And it was because I'm I didn't feel Like I could say things in the moment, because I didn't want to rock the boat, because in my past experience, not just with like relationships, like romantic relationships, just in relationships in general with family members Anytime I would speak my mind it would turn into a battle and so I didn't, I didn't always show that and then I would look like the crazy person because I would just blow up, blow up. Yeah, I think now, after so many years, I can say things in the moment. I feel like you'll respond well and even if you don't, we can talk about it in a respectful way and keep it moving.
Speaker 2Mary yeah, all right, I can answer that question now.
Speaker 1All right, which one After all these four, uh-huh?
Speaker 2The answer would be no.
Speaker 1These don't work. Why?
Speaker 2do you say that If you're with the wrong person, why do you say that?
Speaker 2Because I got told you before I made a list with Carolyn oh, my soulmate was. And then there were deal breakers on that list and one of the deal breakers was, uh, that person had to be a Christian. So, even if I followed these four laws of marriage, there's a couple on it. So the whole premise of this wouldn't work, because my first wife was not a Christian. So we couldn't even practice some of these things. Or I couldn't even practice some of these things. Well, it had to be we, because I couldn't be doing it by myself. We couldn't even practice some of these things because that's not something she believed in. So no, that wouldn't have worked for me, for you, if you asked me, because if I practice these four things, would our marriage have worked?
Speaker 1There's a lot of Christians, where there's a lot of marriages, where there's two Christians and they get divorced. Get out of here.
Speaker 2Yes, so you're right.
Speaker 1So I understand your situation, but I don't know if that's across the board.
Speaker 2No, I mean first I need to answer it. Yes For you. You did ask it wouldn't have worked for you, it wouldn't work for me, yeah, but can you be with the right person, the wrong person? Practice these four laws? I think you could, but I think you're just. I mean a lot of people in marriage. They're just. You know they're in marriages and they live and be with the other and you know they were with their own person. They don't get a divorce.
Speaker 1I know, but they're not happy.
Speaker 2They're not completely happy.
Speaker 1They're not happy and then they die and everything is great. I can't live that way.
Speaker 2No, but a lot of people do that, I know.
Speaker 1And I feel very sad for them. And if they practice these, would that?
Speaker 2make their marriage better. Is that what you're asking?
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2Would they make their marriage better? I think it would make their marriage better. Yes, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1Exactly.
Speaker 2And they worked on those, these four laws, and maybe they'll fall in love with each other Again, again, or for the first time, or whatever. But yes, so I think it could at least save a marriage, even for you, with the wrong person. At least you'd be, you know, happier while you're married to that person. If you practice, if both of you practice these four laws, or maybe it will give you more of an idea that that's not the right person. Maybe it'll open up your eyes that that's not the right person, but yeah.
Speaker 1Okay, so those are the four laws.
Speaker 2Those are the four laws the law of purity, law of pursuit, law of partnership and law of prior.
Speaker 1And if we're aware of these things and work at it as a couple, then we should be good to go there you go Exactly, I like it Exactly. Honestly, it's like again, we're not experts, but I feel like it's worked for us, and whether it's interesting because we've done things without really realizing these were the laws of marriage, like we never sought out to feel like these are these laws that we're pursuing, but when it's in your face with, like a label and a title.
Speaker 1Then you're like oh okay, we've done this, we've worked through these. Yeah, we've done it, we've, we've, we've managed. I don't know how We've got it too. Oh no, probably because we got God and then us and then everybody else. There you go and it's worked, anyways, all right. So there's some questions that were given, and now I don't expect you to give details about how other people have answered. Of course not, because the men's group is very private, 100%, and it stays within. It's like Vegas whatever happens here stays here.
Speaker 2Happens in the men's group stays in the men's group.
Speaker 1But more of a generalization of how things were answered. So we can learn, we can learn. So one of the questions is why do you believe unresolved conflict is at the heart of most marriage problems and most divorces? Unresolved conflict.
Navigating Unresolved Conflict in Relationships
Speaker 2Yes and I was funny because Robert brought that up about unresolved conflict, Because you know, you and I even talked about this when we were walking today on the beach. Most people, unfortunately which is pretty cool because that doesn't happen in our family when I mean my family, my brothers and sisters we actually talk about problems. You and I talk about problems. We better at discussing problems and coming to solutions and agreement for both of us. But if you just let it go, you kind of sweep it under the rug, like you said earlier. You put it away, put it in a suitcase and never really address the problem. It's not like the problem goes away.
Speaker 2A lot of people don't like conflict. They don't like to have a disagreement. A lot of people say, oh, we never have an argument, that means our marriage is perfect. That tells you if you really have a problem with your marriage. If you never have an argument and if you don't resolve it, it doesn't mean you have a bunch of arguments. It means your marriage is perfect and great. But you have to come to some resolution that you both feel good about, Because if you just let it go, go to bed and weeks go by, years go by, it's not like the problem went away, it just made it worse actually.
Speaker 1Do you think we've had that?
Speaker 2Oh, we've definitely had that Early on. Definitely we had that, and that's when you would blow up.
Speaker 1Well, okay. The next question is can you agree to disagree on an issue? I don't know if you can. That goes in the hand with unresolved conflicts.
Speaker 2Because it's unresolved. Yeah, you can't agree to disagree. That's what Robert said. Yeah, oh, he did. You can't agree to disagree.
Speaker 1I got an A on the table.
Speaker 2Because that is an unresolved conflict.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's still unresolved. Yeah. You haven't come to an agreement Because we've agreed to disagree, and it festers in me. I can't handle that. No, Me personally. I don't know about you, but for me it doesn't feel good to agree to disagree, especially if you think you're right. Yeah, yeah, and I'm right a lot, 98% of the time. Remember that.
Speaker 2Yeah, I said 2%, yeah, so yes, unresolved conflict is the number one reason that divorces happen. And the funny thing that Robert brought up and he said I just did this recently because he has divorce care, I think once or twice a year. He's been doing this for over 15, 20 years and he said that, out of the number of years married, 80% of the people were married over 15 years 10 to 15 years. It wasn't like, oh, I've been married for two years or three years. The majority of them, most of the people who had a divorce care, have been married for a long time, for a long time.
Speaker 2So that means they've They've just dealt with it. They've had a lot of unresolved conflict, yeah, but that's the thing you've got to work.
Speaker 1Or it's resolved and they're just on different pages, and it is what it is.
Speaker 2Sure that's what a divorce is.
Speaker 1This is where I stand and this is where you stand.
Speaker 2We're not going to disagree. We're just going to separate. Yeah, we're going in this relationship. So, yeah, unresolved conflict is huge, because if you don't actually have that discussion and communicate as, what do they? Say the biggest problem in any relationship is communication. I like their up, so you have to communicate to get through that unresolved conflict. You can't just let it go. You let it go, then it just festers. And I think I got this from Carolyn.
Speaker 1She's so wise. She is so wise. Everything you got was from Carolyn. Oh yeah, I got a lot of things from her. Hi, Carolyn.
Speaker 2I remember saying a lot of times people and Carolyn used to do a little quasi marriage counseling and she did that with a lot of my friends, some of her friends, and she's really good at it. So I remember you know how people say they take all this baggage from one relationship to the other. Yeah, pretty soon. You keep adding things to your baggage, you're going to have suitcases and that's a lot of unresolved conflict and it's sometimes it's when you go in from relationship with this and you never resolve it. Sometimes it's not, it's personal unresolved conflict within yourself that you haven't resolved. Or you know, come to any type of resolution.
Speaker 1Yeah, I don't know how we get through all that. Maybe some counseling, or you just got to sit down over a nice dinner and just hash it out.
Speaker 2A little bit of both.
Speaker 1That's what we do.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1And sometimes this is what I've found. One conversation may not know, resolve it and not on the problem it does.
Speaker 1And then also sometimes they may not happen that year or the next year. And I have found that with certain things, with us, some things are like boom, boom, boom, we talk about it. We talk about it on the same page. Other times it's been a few years where it's kind of that situation goes into the next year, into the next year, into the next year. So it may not happen right away and those you agree to keep having that conversation yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know, like I always said, marriage is a commitment to grow together.
Speaker 1There's one thing that always will stand out for me with the two of us where we were having the same conversation about and we've talked about this in the men's panel where you were holding on to friendships of women, that you were dating sex with whatever.
Speaker 1Whatever the case may be, you held on to them as friendships and so that was like a constant argument of ours. There was one day and I remember so vividly and I don't remember what it was, but it probably was around something like that and you were about to leave. You were in our bedroom and you were about to like storm out and something I can see. I still remember. I think something went off in your mind and I'm sitting there like so sad and crying and, oh my gosh, this is just not going to go anywhere. We've been talking about the same shit for years and you're just still doing the same shit and I'm feeling the same way. You stopped before you left. You turned around, you sat down facing me, you grabbed my hands. It was eye to eye, face to face, and you're like, basically like I want to listen to you. Right, that was a turning point. Yeah, I remember that. That was a turning point for me. I remember that Because I'm like if you had left, it would have just been the same old shit.
Speaker 2Yeah, we would have been repeating the process.
Speaker 1But you sat, you held my hands, you looked me in the eyes and I'll never forget that. And we talked. I felt heard, I felt heard. Yeah, I felt like, okay, he sees me. And that was the beginning of where we are today, and I think that was maybe, I don't know four years ago. Mm-hmm. Four or five years ago something like that.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, I remember that that was powerful.
Speaker 2Yeah, I had to be just. I was just like I'm saying, hey, you're making a mistake. Right now You're being stupid. You know what that goes back to being selfish, being selfish, and so.
Speaker 1It stopped you. It stopped you in your tracks. It did, and I'll never forget that moment.
Speaker 2It was it, definitely was it.
Speaker 1I was like if he, if you had walked away it was like you need to fight.
Speaker 2Yeah, because that was yeah, and so why? Are you getting emotional? No, because it took me back to that place.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And you know what happened for me to do that, Because it's something.
Speaker 1You're ready to walk out that door?
Speaker 2It's something when it's when it goes beyond you, yeah, and you have to. I don't know it was. It was because that was not Planned. Obviously. It wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna turn around and you know, that's, that's.
Speaker 1You opened the doors and you were going out the doors. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2I was gone. Yeah, you were out of there and I don't know it was like it was like a barrier at that door that I and something in my head it was like it was. It was just like a switch and you know, for people that believe that's God, that's God that made me turn around and sit down and yeah, I know exactly.
Speaker 1You remember that moment, I remember that moment like it was yesterday. Really, because I, I remember it too, and I don't think we've thought about it since today.
Speaker 3Maybe that's why we haven't talked about it since today. Yeah.
Marriage, Growth, and Avoiding Affairs
Speaker 2Because that, that was true, that was pure, that was honest, that was transparency, that was yeah, that was just. I think in my immature self, I would have left.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And yeah, but at that moment something said to me you need to stop, you need to this has to end yeah.
Speaker 1Because we're talking about the same shit over and over.
Speaker 2Yeah, this is your soul mate. This is the person that you love with everything in your heart, and you need to make sure she knows that she's a priority. Yeah, and stop being selfish. Yeah and yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1That was the moment, that's what that was and that was what. Oh no, we were married 15, 16 years, no more than that. Like six, like it was.
Speaker 2It was 15, 16 years. Yeah, it's that category that. Robert said you know that's around that time people get divorced.
Speaker 1Yeah, it was around that time where I'm like all right, he finally sees me, he hears me, he gets it. Yes, and we can work from this. Yeah, if you had walked out and been like, this is your issue because you had told me that before, this is your insecurity.
Speaker 2This is your issue. You can get over it. This is your problem. You need to get over it. Yeah, you need to grow up. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Be more mature.
Speaker 1Yeah, and it's more like I need to work on myself. And yes, I do need to work on myself, but it hasn't taken any responsibility?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, and that whole process. Yeah, yeah, so, but it takes a lot.
Speaker 1That's not something that's easy it does. It's a powerful thing when a person can do that, when people see us now and make comments, positive comments. Yeah, it's positive stuff, but they don't realize yeah.
Speaker 2You have to go through. It is a commitment to grow together, because you can't grow by yourself, you can't improve on your own. I mean, you can, but your partner has to be willing to improve and go too, yeah. So yeah, you have to admit when you're wrong, you have to take responsibility for those times. And I'll tell you what. My most favorite, my most well, yeah, one of my best times in my life that I can say and I said this before in the podcast when you told me you're 100% trust me Well, that was groundbreaking for me.
Speaker 1Because it was around. It was after that moment. So it's interesting because we've been married for 18 years. So when you say 15, that means the past three to four years is when we are really in. Not that we were not in sync before, but there was unresolved issues.
Speaker 2Yeah, because we had great moments. Yeah, great times. Like we said, we went on vacations and we owned it each other, yeah, but there was still underlying things.
Speaker 1So that conversation, and then I was like all right, I have to let go of certain insecurities. And then that's when I was like I'm over all of this and I trust you 100%, because I never had said that, because I don't trust anybody 100%, I don't care who you are. I'm very skeptical of the world of people. I don't see people for who they are, upfront. That's just the way I'm built and I used to feel like it was a flaw or something's wrong with me. But I feel Instincts.
Speaker 2Trust you, it is, it's an instinct thing.
Speaker 1And so for me to say that, yeah, that I trust you also, it's a growth within me Because it's like, oh, you know what, if he, whatever, for whatever reason, screws up in any way, that's not on me. And so that's leading into this next question, and I think this is where a lot of my insecurities lie how do affairs get started? How do I protect myself from getting into an affair? That's where a lot, if I'm going to be honest, that's where a lot of things are, because I think I'm pretty freaking amazing. However, I know that I'm not that special that someone can't like you can't step out on me, that could be insecurity.
Speaker 2Correct, correct.
Speaker 1Why that's been an insecurity of mine, I don't know, but it's been very deep rooted and we got married when you and I was 25. So it wasn't like I had like this huge dating history.
Speaker 2No, you did, you had a ton of baggage. So but the person that you with and had a father, his father Caitlin. Yeah, that's true, that's what he did.
Speaker 1Well, I don't know. There's no proof Deep down, deep down. There's no proof Deep down. I think there was something going on with others, but yeah, right.
Speaker 2Yeah, so yeah, I think what's the question again.
Speaker 1How do affairs get started and how do I protect myself from getting into an affair?
Speaker 2Multiple reasons, but I think the biggest one is not making your marriage your priority, not putting yourself in situations that you have to make choices like that. So it's the when you get so comfortable, would you like. I don't have to date my wife anymore, I don't have to buy her flowers just because, or and we get off rhythm is when we haven't been dating each other, you know, when we're not like that year we didn't have our vacation.
Speaker 2That was a bad year for us because we chose not to do it, and that wasn't fun. So when we can get back to us, that's always a great time and I think for these last four or five years we've had a lot of many vacations, you know one week vacations, like we're doing this weekend. You know we're here, kids are home and we have people, you know, watching them and.
Speaker 2Kaylin's there, so that's very helpful for most of the weekend and but this is like I don't know. I love being here in timing, but I love being here in Tybee with you more than anything. So this is just my, this is my peace, this is my happy place. And so if you can't have that and you kind of get used to just the routine and life and his life and the world is just so, it's going to suck you up. Yes, You're out, and then that's when the devil gets in. The devil. That's the thing about it. The devil knows you better than you know yourself sometimes, so he knows what things he can do to entice you or make you feel like, yeah, you know, this didn't happen and you need to do this and you do that, make you feel better and someone says something to you, and so then, yeah, you get caught up in that craziness. You definitely do.
Speaker 1Well, yeah, setting up barriers for sure around you, yeah.
Speaker 2Boundaries. I haven't, you know, saying hey, I'm not going to put myself in this situation, that I have to make a decision, or you know and I think, I think sometimes we think, oh, we're stronger than that. Oh, big time.
Speaker 1So I'm not going to get sucked into that, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's not going to be me. Yeah, that was my whole thing in my first marriage was that, you know, first of all, I'm not going to get divorced. All my brothers and sisters were divorced and remarried, more than one some of them. So so it's like, oh, that's not going to happen. And the crazy thing about it is when I met my, my other brother, keith, he had been divorced. This is his second marriage and man, he has a wonderful wife and yeah, it's just crazy that we have all had that same pattern and yeah, so that was weird. And at the time I thought, oh, that's kind of weird because you know, our parents never got a divorce. But thank, keith was Keith, because my father wasn't faithful.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Which is just shook my whole foundation. So yeah, that's that's. You know, obviously that's when you have that unresolved conflict, that's when it's easier for you, maybe, to step out. Yeah, it's easy for you to have an affair. It's interesting Because that person superficially, yes, fulfills something. Yeah.
Speaker 1You're not doing life with them, right? It's like imaginary, it's like TV. Yeah.
Speaker 2It's a fair tale, yeah.
Speaker 1It's an escape.
Speaker 2It's definitely an escape. So for me, I'd rather escape with you to somewhere that's like anywhere really doesn't matter where we go. Even that one time year that we just did a staycation, the kids went away? Yes, they did go away.
Speaker 1And thank you, thank you, family, for always helping out on both sides.
Speaker 2Yes. The mom and your siblings have been a godsend. Yeah, Carolyn, Nelly. And your mother, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1I think John Kevin got shout out to him because I think that year he drove halfway to pick up the kids.
Speaker 2Yes, he did, yes, he did.
Speaker 1I mean he didn't take care of them, but he drove, he drove, he drove.
Speaker 2Yeah, I love my brother. Yeah, they're awesome, yeah, so you know, it's just even then like we went on dates that week and went out to different places in Atlanta, but we had to have that one on one time.
Speaker 1Okay. So this question I have no idea. So maybe you guys talked about this. It says something about spiritual blindness. How does spiritual blindness which I've never heard of this term in my life play a part in marriage problems and divorce? What is spiritual blindness, and can a Christian become spiritually blind 100%? So what was that about Spiritual warfare? Come back next week, where we continue the conversation about marriage and answer some marriage questions. We define what the spiritual blindness is all about, and Philip confesses something that he has been very private about concerning his first marriage. So come back next week. I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your week and a phenomenal weekend. See ya. Thank you so much for listening to Virago 24-7. If you haven't done so already, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and please give us five star ratings. Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Virago 24 underscore seven, and on Facebook, at Virago 24 slash seven, and just connect with us and share your story. We'd love to hear from you.
