Virago 24/7

Saving Love When Trust Breaks

• Lyanette Talley

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0:00 | 51:51

When love is on the line, panic makes smart people do reckless things. We brought in Dr. Becky Whetstone, a nationally recognized marriage crisis manager, to show how to stop the spiral, make clear choices, and protect your family whether you reconcile or part. 

We walk through the moments that matter most: how to tell if change is possible, the difference between treatable issues and entrenched personality patterns, and when to pivot from repair to amicable divorce. Becky shares an approach most therapists never teach—directive, research-backed, and designed for high-stakes decisions.

We also get honest about dating after divorce and the landmines of blended families. Expect practical guidance on trauma triggers, coupling errors that turn every red flag into a false alarm, and why slow, wide-sample dating leads to better partners and better selves. On stepfamilies, Becky offers hard-won insight: start as an ally, let the biological parent lead discipline, and accept that belonging takes years, not weeks. If you’re staring down infidelity, emotional shutdown, or the crossroads between repair and divorce, this conversation gives you a plan.

If this helped, tap follow, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a quick review so more people can find the show. Your support helps us bring more grounded, compassionate guidance to those who need it most.

https://www.marriagecrisismanager.com

Book: "I (Think) I Want Out: What to do When One of You Wants to End Your Marriage"

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Everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors!

Music by Deli Rowe: "Space to Move"
Logo by Kaylin Talley


SPEAKER_00:

Today's conversation is not about sugarcoating relationships. It's about saving them when everything is on the line. I'm joined by Dr. Becky Whetstone, a nationally recognized marriage crisis manager who works with couples in the most high-stakes moments in their relationships. Infidelity, betrayal, emotional shutdown, and the crossroads between divorce and repair. Dr. Becky is known for her direct, compassionate, and no nonsense approach to helping couples rebuild trust and make clear decisions when emotions are running high. If your relationship feels fragile, confusing, or on the brink, this conversation matters. Let's get into it. Hi, I am your host, Leonette Alley, and you are listening to Virago24-7. Virago is Latin for female warriors, and 24-7 is for all day, every day. Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcast that brings diverse women together to talk about life and our experiences in this world, which are based on self-love, mental health, marriage, children, friendships, and really anything that needs to be talked about. Here you will find everyday growth, everyday feelings, with everyday warriors. It's nice to see you again. Full disclosure.

SPEAKER_04:

Thank you for having me on your show.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh. I'm I'm gonna just be open to the people that are listening. I have recorded with uh Dr. Becky before. We recorded last week, and there is no evidence of these recordings because I don't know what I did. We had a 50-minute conversation that doesn't exist. So I appreciate you coming back on. So, Dr. Becky Whetstone, you are a licensed marriage and family therapist. Uh you call yourself the marriage crisis manager. You are from Little Rock.

SPEAKER_01:

I am.

SPEAKER_00:

And we established that my husband is also from Little Rock.

SPEAKER_01:

He asked.

SPEAKER_00:

He wanted me to ask you uh what high school you went to. Did you go to high school?

SPEAKER_04:

Parkview, Parkview High School.

SPEAKER_00:

Parkview, okay, I'll let him know. Because he went to Hall.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and his mom was an English teacher and she taught at Central.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, those are the big three. I mean, other people in Little Rock might argue with me, but Parkview, Central, and Hall are the big three. That's where most of my friends went.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, wonderful. Wonderful. All right. So she gave us permission to call her Becky. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. So tell us about yourself, how you got started. Let's start from the beginning.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, wow. You know, well, I grew up in Arkansas. You're, you know, in El Dorado, Arkansas, um, which is in South Arkansas near Louisiana, and it's oil country down there. And so we I I grew up in a town where very early on you realize there's sort of a caste system, you know, like uh uh there were the billionaires from the Murphy Oil Company, and the Murphy kids were my age and older. And so most of me and my siblings were in school with them, and they and they went to the public schools in El Dorado. So, but everybody always knew, like, you know, if you were a billionaire Murphy or a or a Murphy cousin or whatever, and that their kids would be delivered every day to school in a limousine, but to their parents' credit, it was just a regular station wagon. Their limousine. But you're aware of this wealth thing, right? And then there's the um middle class kids, and then there were the redneck kids, and then there were the colored people, the segregated, the black people in El Dorado had their own schools and their own area of town, you know, it was very bizarre. And when my parents and I would drive out to their area of town, it would be like going to a third world country. I remember that. There were like uh not paved roads, the houses weren't painted, they looked like shacks and chanties, and and so I, you know, I just think that I was very sensitive to that as a kid, you know, and I think that it that in my DNA was sort of born this compassion for people that were, you know, living lesser than lives in poverty, or um like how the black people were treated in my town, you know, and and um and as luck would have it, um my school they began a little testing of integration, and the first black child in my elementary school, we got one black child, and he was put in my class. And his name was Gregory Dykes. He was such a fun, uh, sweet boy, and I felt very protective of him at the time. But it's interesting because I've wanted to talk to Gregory Dykes all these years about what that experience was like because I just can't even imagine. And because some boys were not very nice to him. And um, I looked and looked and looked for him about every six months for the last 20 years, and just literally last month I found him on the internet in an obituary. It was so sad. And it, you know, it said Gregory, he lived in Illinois, but he didn't, he never married, he didn't have kids. He really was um he lived for his parents, and um, and it had a picture of him as a grown-up and everything. And and but if he'd have been a little more present on the internet, you know, than he was, I could have found him and and talked to him about that experience. But I just think that stuff like that, you know, formed my compassion and um kind of wanting to help people who were um not pro had no little or no privilege whatsoever, you know. Um, and so um, and when I graduated from high school and started going to college and stuff, and uh I I started noticing that my biological family, you know, that we were bumping heads and having issues. And so I started asking myself this question am I crazy? Are they crazy crazy, or are we all crazy? And so I decided to go to therapy and start figuring this out. And that and that and never I didn't really know anything about therapy at the time, but the insights I got there, you know, were just so mind-blowing to me and and really helped me improve mentally and emotionally very quickly. And so I suddenly became very interested in the counseling profession and what was possible there. And then a few years later, I married my kid's dad, um, having put my dream of being an advice columnist on the back burner for a variety of reasons. But I just I think you know, lack of belief that anyone would ever hire me was a primary reason. Um, because I'm a I've always been a writer, I've always loved writing, and I've always loved real the idea of relationships and used to devour advice columns. But here I am being a housewife with my kids dead. And when we first met, he was very, very loving, like the most loving, and he's so attractive. Oh my God. And and you know, he was just adored me and doted on me, and I just thought I'm the luckiest person in the world. And we got married, and we went to Australia and New Zealand for a year or two because of his job. And sometime during the first six months of our marriage, he became emotionally cold and distant, sort of slamming a door in my face. And I started having depression and panic attacks because I was like, what the hell? You know, and you know, this was um unbelievable that, you know, I don't know. I spent the next five years trying to get him to come back and connect with me, but I failed. And that I got to a point where I just couldn't take it anymore. He was kind of mean, he would say mean things. He would always tell me I was wasting my life, and and that just looking at how I lived my days made him sick, you know, because I guess he could see that there was something in me that was meant for more. But at that time, I wanted to do something more, but I didn't know what it was. But anyway, we went through a marriage crisis. I got fed up with him. He came home from work one day. I said, I think I want to separate. Um, and I don't think I don't know if I want a divorce or not, but I I I can't take this anymore. And so we entered this thing called marriage crisis. And um, we went to our marriage therapist, asked uh him what to do, and he said, Look, if you're not interested in working on the marriage, I can't help you. So he sent us away, and my soon-to-be ex-husband and I handled it ourselves, and it was an absolute disaster for all of us and our friends and our family, and then we had two little kids, aged three and six at the time, who you know paid a price and still pay a price for all our stupid decisions. So that didn't sit well with me that the therapist could not help us with that. But after, you know, during those days, I started going to all these self-help workshops and seminars and stuff, kind of like Tony Robbins stuff, where they hit you over the head and you come out of there going, I can do anything. You know? Yeah. So I I they they really pumped me up with confidence and stuff. So I just made it my business to force the San Antonio newspaper to hire me as a feature writer. And then my goal was to become a a columnist of talking about relationships. It took me two years to get the column, and then when I wrote the column, it was wildly popular in San Antonio. People loved it.

SPEAKER_00:

So um how did you end up in San Antonio?

SPEAKER_04:

Well, um I had been in Little Rock and I was lamenting, and that's where I'm from, that I'd been lamenting the uh quality of men that I was meeting there. And my sister lived in in San Antonio, and she said, Look, my husband works with all these good-looking young single men. Why don't you come down here and have a fantasy weekend and every night you'll go out with a different man? And then on the line, we'll leave one night, we'll leave one night, three at the end, and you can go on a second date with one of them if you want to. So that's what we did. And so one of the guys she fixed me up with was my kid's dad, who happened to be her next door neighbor. And so she kind of knew him through the yard, but he would come over to their house and drink wine and stuff, and they really loved him. So yeah, so she she fixed us up, and so I moved down there to be with him. So, um, so after so I'm I after I was working with the newspaper, I was single for five years now, a single mom, and I remarried a guy uh that had been one of my dear friends, and we turned into a romance, and um, and I knew he was a little uh probably not someone I should marry, but I did marry him um when he told me that he was going to run for US Congress in San Antonio, and I knew he was gonna win. So, you know, I I had this back then I had this part of my ego that loved wild experiences, you know, like power, prominence, you know, I just it was irresistible to me. So in many ways, I married a man I knew I shouldn't marry to have that experience up there in Washington, D.C. And oh, I had the experience, all right. You know, we were uh married five years, but our divorce took two years. Oh wow. So I went through another dang marriage crisis, um, and I wrote a book about that whole experience, the five years with the congressman. It is an unbelievable story. And that particular story is available on Substack um at the Congressman's Wife. And I'm just I I'm right now in the process of releasing it. I wrote it 20 years ago, but I'm rewriting it and updating it with insights from a therapist's point of view. And um, yeah, so it's on Substack at the Congressman's Wife. So um when we got divorced, I had just started graduate school in marriage and family therapy. And that was that saved me because I was extremely depressed and down over our divorce, and I lost my I had to quit my job. Uh yeah, I was gonna ask you that because of being married to a politician. And then since I had been married to a politician, he had a lot of power in the community, so no one wanted to take a chance on hiring me in a job. Oh, how you know, they we don't want to anger the congressman, you know. So I started hitting all these walls where I couldn't make anything happen for myself. And but, you know, like I said, thank God I was in graduate school and I went to graduate school for five years and got my doctorate in marriage and family therapy. And when I was there, you know, I was made a point to do a lot of research on what can be done when a couple is in a marriage crisis. And I found a bunch of great research, you know. I was like, why didn't anybody know about this? Why aren't they teaching us about this in graduate school? Because in the marriage and family therapy classes, they never even mentioned marriage crisis or what to do. It was not a something discussed. Now, they each professor would always assign us five or seven gigantic books to buy, you know, and for their class each semester. And a lot of that information was tucked in those books, but no one had time to read all those books every semester. So most of us ended up putting those books on our shelves as reference material, you know. And but years later, like when I was doing my research, I'd pull some of those books down and I'd go to the library and pull up uh studies and whatnot. And there was just so much, so much research and information on how are the best ways to have handle couples in that situation and how to diagnose your marriage to know if you're about to have a marriage crisis. So I was kind of like, wow, you know, um, this is amazing. I wrote I wrote my dissertation on it, which basically means I had to read every study and read every book on that subject that ever was done. And I came out of it so knowledgeable about it, and then I thought, well, I'm kind of an expert in this now, and I'm gonna have since no one else is helping couples in crisis, I'm gonna have to do it. So, and I was gonna write a book about it to help people, but I couldn't get anyone to buy my book back then. And so I just started trying to attract couples in crisis to my practice through advertising, and um, they started coming and I used all the research stuff that I knew to help them, and I started tweaking and refining it. And so now I've been helping couples in crisis for over 25 years, and then finally I was able to get my book published last February called I Think I Want Out What to Do When One of You Wants to End Your Marriage. So that's what I'm doing now, and I've expanded marriage crisis management to helping uh walk people through an amicable divorce process or a positive co-parenting uh process. So I really feel that marriage therapy has done people wrong by letting them leave when they say they want a divorce because divorce is one of the most stressful experiences a person can ever go through. And why would they not stay with a family therapist like us who can really help smooth the water and help them not make mistakes and do the things that will damage their family the least? You know, so I'm trying to like create something, you know, and my goal is to put family lawyers out of business. Um and you know, I've my method of amicable divorce does not involve hiring family lawyers and using therapists for most of it, and then there's other kinds of lawyers you can hire that are not bloodthirsty, that are more peaceful oriented. And so I tell couples how to do it, and um, I just want to start having a less awful way of parting ways when you're a family.

SPEAKER_00:

So you're saying like most therapists only work with couples when they want to save their marriage, otherwise you're just kind of left to your own devices to the other. That's right.

SPEAKER_04:

And now that now, you know, they do tell you in um graduate school that you can ask your clients if they would like to transition to divorce therapy. But I don't know anyone that does that. And the and part of the reason I think is they don't teach us how to do divorce therapy. They just say you can do you can do the divorce therapy, um, but but that would be something that you would have to take a special interest in and go study in your own time, you know. So a lot of my classmates, you know, aren't even marriage therapists, even though they're marriage and family therapists. It's so interesting that um that you know, one of my colleagues specializes in autism and another specializes in uh caretaking of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's uh patients. So just because you're a marriage and family therapy doesn't really therapist doesn't necessarily mean that you know how to handle couples families, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

So what kind of in your in your um practice, um, what kind of couples do you normally see? Do you normally deal with people both both sides are rational and they get it? Or do you find that one is more difficult? And how do you handle those kind of people?

SPEAKER_04:

Oh girl. You know, I had a rough day yesterday.

SPEAKER_01:

Did you?

SPEAKER_04:

Did you yeah, you know, I came up Stairs and yet, like every my husband laughs because sometimes I go, It's time to retire. Time to retire. Um be I I I am ashamed to say that I'm expensive. You know, my my my fees are expensive, but it also has cost me a fortune to get my PhD in marriage and family therapy and to get all the training that I've had to be able to help people. I estimate I've spent$200,000 beyond graduate school going to workshops, studying with some of the most uh respected experts in the world in trauma and healing and um divorce and whatnot, you know? And so, and I want to keep doing that. I want to keep my training going and learning more and more and more and more. So I'm expensive, and because of that, um I attract high-functioning people. Okay. So most of my clients are usually college educated in some sort of professional type jobs. Um, and I would say of that group, 90% of them are pretty stable and reasonable. And to do what I do successfully, you have to be stable and reasonable. And if, you know, most people enter the process like a bucking horse, you know, and I and I realize there's going to be a little resistance uh in the end, because I coach people to do counterintuitive things. You know, marriage crisis management is a completely different animal than marriage therapy. I am in marriage therapy, some marriage therapists would never be directive and say, you need to do this, you need to do that. But marriage crisis management is all about me coaching them and being directive and stuff. So I have to sometimes wrestle a few bears, if you will. And um I tell you what ends up wearing me out sometimes, and what what ended up wearing me out yesterday is the people who I spent, let's say I've spent three or four sessions with them already outlining everything they need to do, and I send them emails about it and I send them instructions, and they're well informed. They read my book, they're well informed of what they should do, and they totally disregard everything I say.

SPEAKER_00:

Brianna, that sounds like something your ex would do. It does, does regard everything that the professional absolutely knows better?

SPEAKER_05:

He wouldn't have made it to the third session.

SPEAKER_04:

So it's like, you know, if it it's the leaning in partners, you know, are the ones that struggle the most. They're the ones that want to save the marriage, and then their spouse, the decider, is leaning out and trying to get away from them. And they have to stop pursuit and love bombing and begging and being pathetic and all those things. Um, and we have to get them both stabilized and everyone calmed down before we can do anything else. And the more the leaning in partner chases love bombs, bitches, screams, uh, cries, shows, you know, just a basket case behaviors, it turns the decider off so badly and and almost ensures a divorce decision. So, but there's just some people that won't stop it. They just won't stop it. And and, you know, and sometimes if somebody cannot, will not change their behavior, you know, uh a therapist is going to start thinking that they have a personality disorder because those people cannot change, they cannot control themselves, they will not, and they're very certain of their perspective and that they know what's best, you know. So what I say is not especially meaningful to them because you know they think by doing this thing over here is gonna get the person back, even though I told them if you do that, they're probably gonna divorce you. Yeah. So so wrestling with those people when they're in sessions with me and screaming and carrying on um with a decider in the room, I just I usually just turn my video off when they do that.

SPEAKER_00:

You seem like no nonsense. Like you're like, you either want to be helped or you don't.

SPEAKER_04:

Sometimes I turn my video off and run into the other room and get my referee black and white striped t-shirt and put it on and come back on the screen.

SPEAKER_05:

Have there are there ever times where you're like coaching couples and then you're like there's there's no way. Obviously, their end goal is to make their marriage work and not proceed with the divorce. But is there ever times in the back of your mind where like there's no way this can work? This is this is headed for divorce a thousand percent. Yes, yes, no matter what I do.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, yes. I mean, I tell people after we've given it a good go, uh, and the leaning in partners, you know, because the when you're in that marriage crisis, the decision the decider has already made is they won't go back to marriage part one the way it was. And so if the other person isn't working on themselves and isn't evolving and showing that in the interactions that they have with the decider, then the deciders lose hope and and the only thing they can do is divorce, you know. So there's plenty of leaning in partners that like they are teachers' pets, and I tell them like you're my teacher's pet. You do everything that I tell you to do, and you might just be a hero and save your marriage and your family. But um, some are just so immature, and you know, and I can't get them to grow up. I I do everything I but you know, there's just some people that are resistant and won't grow and change. And if I get an extant interview from this life with some God or some divine source, you know, one of the things I'm gonna ask him is why did were their personality disorders?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Because they there's that's about 10% or more of the population. So we've all got them in our families, and we all know people who are so difficult. And I want to know why we had to have that, those people.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Let me know why they existed.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so last time we last last recording that doesn't exist, Shiny was on, um, and then today Brianna's on. But one of the things that we got into that I really um would love for you to share is, you know, once you get divorced, um, we talked about dating after divorce, um, you know, with the kids, especially if there's kids involved. Let's talk about that because you know, Shiny's divorced, Brianna's divorced. They're both, you know, trying to figure out how that looks in the next chapter. Um, do you have any questions on that, Brian? Because I know you're dating, and she had really, really good insight on what not to do.

SPEAKER_05:

Um no, it's funny because I don't, I don't feel like I truly know or I truly knew the effect that my marriage had on me or the divorce had on me until I started dating. And especially dating, having a healthy relationship or going into a healthy relationship. I'm like, there are certain moments where I'm like, damn, that that I expect things because that's what I'm used to, knowing that the things that I am expecting are not right and I shouldn't be expecting them, but it's just natural instinct going through. My ex-husband was um was uh an interesting human being. It was a it was a very toxic abusive marriage. And um, so I feel like there's some some trauma there. And so I I it catches up to me day-to-day. So just navigate.

SPEAKER_04:

What you're telling me between the lines is you have baggage.

SPEAKER_05:

I do. A shit ton.

SPEAKER_04:

And not just from her ex either. And not just from her wounds. Oh yeah. War wounds and um and I I'm sure that your nervous system is on guard. It is for you know, any sign that you know that could be happening again. Which is which is trauma, that's trauma. I mean, you're traumatized by the situation. It's frustrating. Yeah, but you know, one of the things to, you know, and to get healthy in getting healthy is to keep in mind that your brain is coupling two things together that should not be together. You know, like if a man does X, he's like your husband. You know, it's like two things that are like let every man stand on his own without your preconceived ideas based on what your husband did.

SPEAKER_05:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, because that that's you know, it's not fair. You wouldn't want that. You know, but a lot, yeah, a lot of things couple, like you know, like you can just coupling, like a man is an asshole. You know, like people couple things together that should not be coupled, and then just okay, so there's a man, not all men are assholes, you know. And and sometimes, you know, and I've talked to many people who are very, very happily married, who stumbled in the beginning, but it was all resolved through effective communication and understanding one another. So, you know, some people are real skittish and quick to run. And I just, you know, want to say to everybody is unless they're doing really awful things, you know, talk of, you know, you can work things, you can work out things and have a mutual understanding sometimes instead of running and throwing the man in the dumpster. The other thing is, is I think that one of my pet peeves about our culture is how few people date before they remarry or get married. Like, is it realistic to think after you get a divorce that the second or third person or fifth or sixth person you date is is the best match that you can find for yourself? I find I call this uh the lazy dating syndrome. I think people hate dating, it's an awful experience, and you just want it to end. So if somebody seems pretty good, you'll just dive right into it and freaking get married. Like, and first of all, you don't have to get married, everybody. Like, you don't have to. Like, why do you like you could just date forever? You know, that's an option. I don't know why everybody is so like, well, you gotta get married. So, so um, I would like to see people be patient and have a larger sample size of men, because the more men you date, the more you get to know yourself and what you need and what you want and what you won't tolerate.

SPEAKER_05:

I feel like I struggle with the opposite, like first sign of something I don't like. I'm like, I'm never speaking to you again.

SPEAKER_00:

She literally has just depends.

SPEAKER_04:

Like, give me an example. Give me an example of something a man did that got him thrown in the dumpster.

SPEAKER_05:

It's just it's it's more so like energy and personality. Like if I if I if it's not sitting well with my soul and I feel any sort of negative feeling, I don't take time to explore that. I don't take time to understand why I'm feeling that negative feeling. I'm just like, it's it's over. I I'm I feel like I'm always on on guard, I think, and men scare the shit out of me, to be honest. So um why not uh why not take a break for a long time? I did for a long time. I've been divorced almost two years. Um, so and before I met my ex-husband, I was a single mom for seven years. So majority of my adult life has actually been single versus in really I'm not a relationship type of girl. I don't do well with relationships. I'm very independent. I like my space. I like um I like I I prefer to be single majority of the time.

SPEAKER_04:

So I took a if I had it to do over again, I'm not even sure I would marry at all. Of course, when I was very young and you had a baby out of wedlock, you were shamed and shunned, and you know, but but I'm so thankful that times have changed. It's not nearly the stigma thing. I I still work with clients, you know, and I live in the state of Arkansas that's you know, uh Bible built. And some of my clients who are 50 now had a baby when they were 15 or 16 and when they were in high school, and they they they have been embarrassed and full of shame for 20, 30, 40 years, you know, because of that story in their life, you know, and uh thankfully um there most you know most of them can see the learn you know learn to retell that story in a more positive way. Um, but the culture is helped too by not shunning women who have babies out of wedlock anymore. Thank God.

SPEAKER_00:

The other um conversation piece that I loved talking about last time was when you mentioned um blending families um when you do find someone, and you mentioned the author, Patricia, was it Papper now? Yes, yeah, I love that because I come from a blended family, so I just love that conversation. And and you know, Brianna, not to get into details, but she is dating someone now, and and there are children on both sides, and like what does that look like? Because I I loved your input on that.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, if it was me, I wouldn't do it. I just wouldn't do it because there's too many um obstacles and complications um and personalities, you know, and so somebody's gonna get screwed in the deal, in my opinion. Um, but you know, I think Patricia Papernow would be nicer about it than I am. I'm not sure she works with families like I do in that regard. But I mean, she's just she is um an extreme researcher on the subject. So she but but you have to be so mature and so well informed of the dynamics that work and don't work in a step family, and zero percent of people educate themselves about these things, just put everybody together, and then the next thing you know, the family has serious problems. And you know, one of the most common dynamics is at any given moment, depending on what's going on, someone in the family feels like an outsider. They don't feel like they belong, they don't feel comfortable in this new place or with these new people, or they feel that everybody else is melding, but they're not. And that could be the stepmom, that could be the stepdad, that could be one of the kids, it could be several of the kids. And um, and and then the you know, the other thing is is one spouse is easy-going and flexible, and the other one is strict, and you bring a strict parent into an easy kids that are used to an easy-going parenting style, and there will be hell. There will be hell to pay. The kid will not cooperate, they will hate you, they will resent you. So it's very dicey when a step parent comes in and tries to parent their stepkids. So it's usually best to not let that the biological parent do the parenting and you stand by as a supportive coach and friend, you know, like a wonderful big sister or a wonderful big brother, you know, who's kind and sort of Jesus-like, you know. But if you come in there, you know, screaming at your stepkids, it's not gonna go well. I'm just and and a lot of my I can I've interviewed dozens of people who are children of divorce, they're grown now, and their stories hurt my heart. They hurt my heart. So the truth is children want alone time with their mom or with their dad. They mostly do not want to have strangers put into their life that they're forced to call a family. It's weird. It research shows it can take five years for a child to feel comfortable in a blended family household if they ever do. So this is something that adults inflict on children that children usually do not want. Now, I have to say that some of my clients, their step parent was an angel in their life, and they came to love that step parent more than they loved their own biological parent. So I do want to give a shout out to those people who do it right and made it impossible, took an impossible job, and just loved the kids, you know. Um, but that's not the norm. The norm is uh like I I spent two years talking to a stepmom, you know, about her blended family and how much she hated her husband's kids, you know, and and she was gonna divorce him over this.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and people leave people that they love because they can't stand the blended family dynamic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I have some stories on that, but yeah, you do. I do. I do. I I'm the top of the. Well, doesn't it sound just easier not to do it? So are you saying not to get married, not to blunt? Like, what do you mean when you say don't do it?

SPEAKER_04:

Just don't put two families in one hour under one roof. Just don't do it.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Like, how about that? You know, and why can't you just date forever? Why do you need to get married? This is what I'm like. I wish I think marriage should happen less often. I think people should stay free and nimble, you know, so if things don't go well, you can walk out without going through a divorce. You know, like I don't like if you get Married, I want to know why. Why do you want to go into a legal arrangement business, family business with this other person? What is the point? Like, what are you doing? I just think that it's like people just go, okay, we're in love, we get married. I don't just don't think they're thinking. You know? And like and I've been married four times, you know, three divorces.

SPEAKER_00:

And so you're speaking from experience.

SPEAKER_04:

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't marry anyone. Really? Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Now some people really love marriage, but uh y'all, only 12% of the population are content in their marriage. 12%?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

That's so why would you want to sign up with something that has like an 88% chance of you struggling and not being happy, and yet you know if you want to end it, it's gonna be a friggin' ordeal.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you think that um people are not vetting the people that they're marrying? Um, are there signs in the I always feel like there's signs in the beginning and that people just ignore and they still go through with it? There's no doubt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, when I interviewed people about why they how they decided to divorce from my dissertation, every one of them knew that they probably were making a mistake. They had the red flags and they just swept them aside for stupid reasons.

SPEAKER_05:

I did.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, so I've done it too. I've done it too. And it's the worst form of self-sabotage. So, you know, um, most adults are immature, most have never been to therapy, they don't know how to be a healthy adult, and they in all their um childhood trauma disabilities show up in their romantic relationships. They'll tell you, I don't act like this at work, I don't act like this with my friends, but put them in with their romantic partner and all those disabilities, emotional immature disabilities show up, like being controlling, being uh needy, being dependent, having terrible self-esteem, um, being boundaryless or being walled off emotionally, those are a control freak or not having any self-control, those are all emotional disabilities from childhood trauma. And and if people have never worked on it in therapy, then they've got them. Whichever ones they have. And I can tell by talking to a couple for 30 minutes most of the disabilities that each one of them have and have always had. And we're going to start working on those first.

SPEAKER_00:

So once you get past all of that, what are the couples that you see that uh have divorced that are amicable? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_04:

You know, I've only started doing the post-divorce work um in the last maybe 18 months. So I don't have a huge sample size right now.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, it's just that I was telling people what to do to have an amicable divorce or a good co-parenting relationship. But I don't think they follow my wise instructions. So now I think that I've learned that I need to oversee it with them, to walk them through it, holding their hand each step of the way. So I think this marriage crisis management, that's me overseeing their marriage crisis to make sure they're not blowing up their family. I'm now overseeing their divorce process to make sure they don't blow up their family. And now I'm overseeing their co-parenting process to make sure that they're doing right by their kids. And we get it going, and I'm watching it for some period of time, and then when they're doing good for a period of time, I cut them loose, and then they they come back in every three to six months to make sure that we're staying the course because they need that accountability. You know.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Everyone reports they're always nicer a few days before they know they're meeting with me. That's funny.

SPEAKER_00:

So let's let's talk about your book that you said just came out this past February, February of this year, correct? Yeah. So, what are some good um, you know, like a summary of what's in the book?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, well, the first book, the first part of the book, I tell you, you know, I tell the person, okay, you're you're got this book because your spouse just told you they want a divorce or you're thinking about getting a divorce. And so this is what's going on with you. So, you know, most people that read that that are in marriage crisis go, holy God, she's describing how I feel exactly, you know. So many people are relieved to find out that what all this crazy feelings and emotions are normal for a marriage crisis. It's they're not going crazy, they're not the only person in the world, they're going through a process. And so after I explain what a marriage crisis is, then I tell them here's how you got in this situation. This is where you screwed up, and now you're in a marriage crisis. So I I talk about, you know, healthy marriages, talk about how marriages go bad, that because there's you know, humans are a lot alike and they do a lot of the same things. So there's patterns, you know, that people go through. And so, you know, I bet you if you read my book, you'll find one or two of your patterns in there, you know. And then I say, and then it's sort of like, okay, so now you know what a marriage crisis is and what you need to do right now, and now you know how you got yourself in this situation, and now you want to know what to do. So we talk about, I have a whole chapter on mental disorders because I think people need to know whether they're married to someone that has the possibility of change. So I give a little primer and overview of things to watch for to see if your spouse has got a personality disorder or if they've just got something like depression or anxiety or bipolar that are treatable. You know, and uh, and then um I'm like, the next part of the book is like, should you separate? Here's the stuff that you consider in that, like about separation. Here's how it's gonna go down. If you do decide to separate, here's the criteria for separation. If you do decide a separation, here's exactly how you do it. And I have a document in there called the Managed Separation Agreement that they can use as a guideline. And then the next chapter is sort of like if you want a divorce and you want it to be amicable, this is what you do right here. And then, of course, I have a whole back section on um post-divorce issues and the and the children, and then tons and tons and tons of resources in the back. I'm telling you, if you don't get yourself healthy right now, then you're just gonna repeat this mess with somebody else. You know, and this is gonna take time, like going to school, and you're either gonna do it or you're not, and most people don't do it. So, but anyway, I put a bunch of great resources in the back of the book that that are places that I would go and things I would do, and some of them I have done. Um, if I was in your situation, the best books to read, the things you need to know, the kind of mental health stuff you need to be doing, you know, because I don't want this this business to keep repeating itself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, especially when there's kids involved, because yeah, the divorce is not what damages the kids, it's how the adults handle it in this situation. So absolutely. So you're doing great work, Becky.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm trying, but I feel like I am trying to herd monkeys, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

That's funny. Bree, do you have any questions for her before we part? Or Becky, do you have any anything additional that you would like to add?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't. You ask great questions. Thank you. I can talk to you forever. I have so many questions, but I know we have to kind of keep it tight. So thank you for sharing your experience and what you do.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, you know, one of my dreams is to have a talking about relationship marathon to raise money for charity. And we will set an amount of money that we want to raise and people donate to get us to shut up. That's hilarious. I love that spin. So so maybe one day we could do one of those marathons. And and uh when people have had enough, maybe they'll give us 20 or 50 bucks to shut up. That's hilarious. Charity.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it. Oh my gosh. Well, I want to thank you. Um, like I said, I have I can talk about the blended thing, I could talk about divorce all day long. Like I love anything about relationships, so I really appreciate you, appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_04:

You know, it's hard. It's really hard. Um, everything I'm asking of people is really, really hard. Yeah. But we can, it's it's possible. And so I'm asking people to make the effort to be better.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00:

You're welcome. And I really, really thank you for you know coming back on and and understanding that. Happy to be here. All right, you take care. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_00:

I will leave you all with this. Your soul already knows the answer. You just have to be quiet enough to hear it and brave enough to listen. Thank you so much for listening to Virago247. If you haven't done so already, go ahead and hit that subscribe button and please give us a five-star rating. Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Virago24 underscore seven and on Facebook at Virago247. And just connect with us and share your story. We'd love to hear from you.

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Lyanette Talley

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