Slam the Gavel
Slam the Gavel
Dr. Mark D. Roseman discusses high-conflict divorce, litigation, tearing apart the family and Parental Alienation
Dr. Mark David Roseman is an expert and international speaker in high-conflict divorce, parental alienation and child custody. Also, Dr. Roseman is the CEO of the Toby Center for Family Transitions, a child reunification program based in Florida which he founded in 2010. As a mediator and consultant with family members enduring social and personal stress, Dr. Roseman has found the complimentary use of different clinical and non-clinical modalities to be most effective in ameliorating these difficulties.
Dr. Roseman founded Preserving Family Ties Media LLC, an educational media and service company offering support groups and coaching for Targeted Family Members.
Also, Dr. Roseman is the Publisher of Contemporary Family, a quarterly digital publication providing global resources for effective parenting. Topics addressed include Parental Alienation, high-conflict divorce as well as Child Custody. He has also written the book Preserving Family Ties.
We talked about how judges should be aware of Parental Alienation and that they should be educated not only in Parental Alienation, but keeping the family together.
To reach Dr. Mark Roseman: www.markdavidroseman.com, www.preservingfamilyties.com and mark.roseman@ markdavidroseman.com
http://www.dismantlingfamilycourtcorruption.com/
Music produced by: Richard Provost/mictechmusic@yahoo.com
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http://www.dismantlingfamilycourtcorruption.com/
Good evening and welcome to Slam the Gavel, the show that tells it all regarding family court, CPS, and parental alienation issues. I'm your host, Marianne Petri, and I have a wonderful guest, Dr. Mark David Roseman. He is an expert and international speaker in high conflict divorce, parental alienation, and child custody. Dr. Roseman is the CEO of the Toby Center for Family Transitions, a child reunification program based in Florida, which he founded in 2010. As a mediator and consultant with family members enduring social and personal stress, Dr. Roseman has found the complementary use of different clinical and non-clinical modalities to be most effective in ameliorating these difficulties. Dr. Roseman founded Preserving Family Ties Media, LLC, an educational media and service company. And he's going to tell you more about that. He is also the publisher of Contemporary Family, a quarterly digital publication providing global services for effective parenting. And that started in 2020. And the topics addressed include parental alienation and high conflict divorce. So how are you doing this evening, Dr. Roseman?
SPEAKER_04:Well, good evening. You know, I think uh as so many of us, we're we're especially targeted parents, we're concerned about several things, you know, uh our our health and welfare uh during these perilous times, uh, these continuing perilous times, and the health and welfare of our children, our family and uh friends, uh, and uh and also having great plans for 2021 uh in making the changes that we believe are urgent to save society.
SPEAKER_00:And that needs a lot of that's how I am. Yes, that's how it is, and it needs to be addressed, and people need help. And um, you've gone to court for people, haven't you?
SPEAKER_04:I have.
SPEAKER_00:How often do you do that?
SPEAKER_04:Uh in the last several years, it's been two or three times a year. And um importantly, uh it's on the uh uh as a as a as a third party providing the research that courts need to hear about child outcomes when parents separate. And uh so I'm uh I'm hired to uh help uh uh address those very specific issues and uh and educate the court, particularly in the uh in the case that's in front of them at that uh at that moment.
SPEAKER_00:Do you find these judges are curious about parental alienation? Are they aware of it?
SPEAKER_04:Well, uh, with respect to parental alienation, uh there has been um an evolution of its uh recognition. Um it's not fast enough, and it is still debated, unfortunately, within the courts. Um and what uh what I like to do is reference parental alienation secondarily and point out what children need and what apparently is not being provided to children, and help them look at ways to make it happen. Uh clearly, when a parent obstructs the access to a child uh by the other parent, that is alienating behaviors and it is criminal. It is criminal to uh to stop the relationship between a parent and a child, and it is criminal further and worse when you destroy a child's uh mental health because of the brainwashing that ensues uh to uh to achieve what typically it is the custodial parent wants.
SPEAKER_00:And you probably see that a lot in the courtroom. I'm sure that's like a common thing, people are pulling on each other.
SPEAKER_04:It uh it it is, and um the uh the the tragedy is that although um it is the courts that hear these cases that oftentimes return to court not only with protracted litigation but follow-up to decisions that had been made that are really not in the favor of the child anyway. And we can talk more about that, Mary Ann. Sure. But the problem is that uh the uh the courts are still dealing with litigation, and it's like a a prize fight, uh as they say proverbially, may the best man win, right? I'm sure with the uh with with more of the females in the WWA, maybe they say, may the best, you know, win. But uh, but that's that is the tragedy. As someone pointed out, in fact, uh a very good friend of mine, uh Danica Field, who uh founded Kids Need Both in Central Florida, uh what we were talking about five, six years ago, she said, Mark, did you realize that the goal of family court is contrary to the role of dependency court? And yes, of course. She said, but get this that the role of dependency court, which is reference in Florida, uh and uh uh sometimes uh as in Ohio where I've done some work, it's called uh juvenile court. Uh, but wherever the uh uh the court will listen to the needs of children in temporary foster care, whatever the name of that court may be, uh their goal is antithetic to what family court is. Family court is like the Roman Coliseum, right? It's horrific. There's bloodletting, there's lies, there's manipulation by all parties, and the judges, you know, frequently are in cahoots with uh with attorneys because of the brotherhood and who knows uh what obligation. I'm not saying this as a as as a uh uh as a as an overall criticism, but it has been proven over time that the uh um there is just not a commitment by a number of judges, and and that number of judges uh overwhelms and overshadows the good that could come out of such a Roman Coliseum type of atmosphere. But if you consider the, as I mentioned, the dependency court or the juvenile court uh or other ilk name uh for that court where children are being reunited uh from temporary foster care. Um the goal of that court is to unite, reunite that child with no stopping, right? Um essentially the goal is to reunite. That's what the judge wants to see. That's what the court tries to do, that's what the GALs on cases and case managers are seeking to do is to bring these children reunified with their biological parents in family court. I'm sorry, but uh that is not the same mission. And uh we need to slam the gavel.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, we do, yes. Yeah, they're getting away with far too much. These uh some some of these GALs. I know there's some good ones out there, and for the most part, there's a lot of bad ones out there, but they are really not working towards, and I hate to use a phrase the best interest of the child, they're just they're not working towards looking at the whole situation and both parents and really reading the case.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you know, it's it's it's it's regardless, I think, of whether they've read the case or not, their context is their own frame of mind as an attorney. An attorney that's appointed by the court, that generally is a favor. Unless you're a GAL connected with a um um an agency that is seeking to reunite children in foster care with with their biological parents, those GALs have a definite role, which they embrace. But in family court, a GAL is not necessarily trained in children's best interests. What they are trained to do uh is to litigate. There are family attorneys who have been given an opportunity to serve as a GAL. It's another revenue stream for them. And uh I I can't I can't say that such GALs do not care, but I will tell you that it's not evident that many do, and it's not evident that they are skilled helping to make the decision. Look, in Connecticut, where uh I'm from originally, and uh where uh I had my own divorce experience over 20 years ago, which brought me into the field, uh there were two attorneys that served as additions to uh the attorneys who may be hired to represent one or both parties. And and those third parties are called either the guardian adlitum or the attorney for the minor children. Now, the AMC, the attorney for the minor child or the minor children, is really the mouthpiece for the children, particularly for minor children. And their role is to say what they believe is what the children feel and would say if they had an appearance in the court. Now, the guardian ad lightum, their role is different, and their role is to recommend to the court what the court should consider, what the court should decide, but not always why. But that's their role is to act as a consult, if you would, to the judge. So why should we, why should private parties in family court have to pay such a position? Especially when you have GALs who in family court are simply attorneys who have a favor bestowed upon them or are appointed for different reasons. Much of the time, sometimes they're solicited by uh by parents who are have come to court and feel it would be helpful to have a third party. Uh uh again, I'm very critical when there's no uniformity. And I think until there is uniformity, we must all be critical and we must all call what should be done and demand accountability. And that only comes around when there is a change in the court system.
SPEAKER_00:So I don't know if family court will ever change because Congress installed it back in the 60s without anyone really voting on it, like the public didn't even vote on it on family court. It just arrived. And now we can't get rid of it because of all these incentives that they're incurring.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I I think it's extremely important for political leadership, legislative leadership to do a fact-find and begin to look at the research on child outcomes and have a fact-finding commission to look at ways to improve child outcomes. And and quite quite directly, when you have uh so many children who are living in single-parent households, nearly 40% of children in public school do live in single-parent households, and you have, on average, only 70% or less of high school students graduating college. And when you have nearly 40% of public school children who have been diagnosed or prescribed for ADD and ADHD, we're not connecting the dots. So we have a pure interest in refocusing the role of family court so we can improve those outcomes. Children fare better when both parents, loving parents, are involved in their children's lives. And so I believe that there needs to be a commission or some fact-finding study to look at how can family courts, number one, improve child outcomes. Number two, what can be implemented in the short as well as the long term to make changes to begin to impact or to positively change the uh the role. And I think over time it would be easier than demanding there be a complete overhaul of the family court system. There needs first to be an acknowledgement that this system is failing over 30 percent of families. It is directly contributing to the uh the uh the um mental health challenges that so many kids have. It leads to bullying, by the way, it leads to suicide, it leads to juvenile crime, it leads to drug and alcohol abuse. Clearly, the evidence has presented itself. It is time. We've done enough in the last year to see the frailties of our system, to look at the uh the horrific challenges to the democratic uh system, and and and to look at the failures uh uh in our society. And with commitments to regroup, to readdress, to organize, to look towards the humanity of society, we must and cannot avoid looking at the humanity that is missing in the family court system.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think um with these incentives, these judges don't care? You know, they don't care about what happens with the child, just give it to the parent who's lying the best.
SPEAKER_04:The uh the studies that I have read, both quantitative and qualitative, have shown that judges in family court do not want to be there. They do not want to be there. If that's true, you want someone deciding your fate and that of your children and that of your family up to six generations, because every court decision in family court with regard to custody arrangements, the disenfranchisement of a child's rights to two parents, the the separation and the obstruction of a loving parent that has had a loving history with their children, but has been um fictionally recharacterized and pushed away, decision based on these perceptions and actions will impact a family negatively or positively for the next six generations. That's 150 years. That is research. And until a judge understands that they have the control of determining not only the immediate acts, the immediate, certainly the immediate access a child has to parents, but but the immediate needs of a child and the parents who are coming through a very difficult emotional time for themselves. I understand that. But when that judge will accept that responsibility, then they will make better decisions and they will help the families even at the most difficult of times, which divorce, high conflict, child custody are the most difficult times, when that judge will acknowledge that, then they will commit themselves to begin to consider better ways of resolving the issues before them instead of uh perhaps patronizing one of the attorneys or or or dismissing their own involvement uh in a particular court. And I know this sounds very, very strong, and I'm a very bitter old man now, but I was a very bitter young man, 48 when I was divorced, you see. So it's really critical that bitterness not lingers. People's lives are completely changed based on the decisions of the court, meaning the judge.
SPEAKER_00:And that can affect you for the rest of your life. As you said, even even my life, it's it's not the same after family court, after what they put not just myself through, but my children through. And you know, I've bought every transcript. And you read these transcripts of when they had the kids sequestered and what they were saying, and they were telling the judge they wanted to go back 50-50, as we had been for years before the third party entered the picture. And the judge didn't care, he was busy doing the opposing attorney favors. And I think this is happening a lot in these courtrooms where these judges are meeting with these lawyers in the clubs, they're talking about the case, you know, that's gonna happen the next day, and they've decided the outcome already.
SPEAKER_04:You know, a a an oxymoron is family court. Right? Family? Where is family when you leave the courtroom? Where is family in the process? Now I know that many judges do have a difficult time and depend upon third parties to provide information so that they can make better decisions. And I really applaud those judges. Who do this and who do care at least are doing their job. The problem is, I don't want a judge sitting there who really doesn't want to be in family court. And a problem in most states, I can't give you figures, but I in in most states, uh, there is a tendency to rotate judges from family to criminal to juvenile to dependency, you know, uh to civil. I mean, this is outrageous. That that should be done for a new judge, get their feet wet, to be mentored by another judge. They should not have the authority in a courtroom, they should be there to learn. And I think that's something I never addressed in writing or speaking. But judges should enter a mentorship program. I'm not aware at this time of any. But I do believe that uh, Marianne, we have to put family back into family court. And I think family and juvenile or dependency, however it may be referred to, and and not all states reference family court, although they do those uh cases, they call it um you know um uh you know, matrimonial court uh or or some other derivation. Uh, point is that anything dealing with family issues or children other than juvenile crime should be in the same court and and and and and and there should be an umbrella or what we call today family court, independency or juvenile, whatever. They should be under the same jurisdiction, and the judges should be there for life. This is a commitment. So their training, their professional training, must also require continuing education in the fields of family therapy, family studies, child psychology, as well as you know, social science and social work, they need to understand the whole gestalt of a family, especially when it goes through a crisis, because their job is to resolve it. And you don't resolve it based on points of law, although you need a legal structure. Uh I'm not dismissing that, but the legal structure without the without the background and the education to help families is really critical. And third parties, you know, as a discussion, Mary Ann, uh there are so many that do not have any understanding of parental alienation, they don't know factors, they don't, you know, they dismiss it, they they don't want to. A lot of them, you know, if they if they feel that they can do a forensic evaluation, they really don't have that experience, they need to have training and the authority in order to do it. You can't have someone who's who's networked with the court for years that they'll do anything for a buck. You know, there's so much abuse within this, as the movie title is divorce corp.
SPEAKER_00:I think a lot of people should watch that. Um, it's just really a shame. I mean, going through a divorce is is stressful. You don't want to see your kids go through a divorce, you don't want to go through a divorce. It affects so many people around you, especially your children, and you don't want to see them suffer, but they shouldn't have to. Um, we co-parented very well as 50-50 until the third party entered the picture, then it just went to pieces, and then you get hauled into the family courtroom and everything's taken away from you, and not you know, not just your children, but you know, your livelihood.
SPEAKER_04:We we suffer greatly uh in in in in many ways when we are denied access to our children, when we are vilified in the court, when we are demonized, uh, when there are allegations that are false, when the uh the courts you know uh look at the um uh uh with great disdain, not fairness, but they listen to allegations, they respond emotionally themselves, and they castigate, they punish, they accuse the other party. Um, and it's and it's very difficult. And then you get into court systems where there are cookie-cutter approaches to trying to understand a family, you know, by having evaluations uh on state of mind and uh, you know, whether you're looking for narcissism or self-esteem issues, you know, you have to look, I believe, at behavior. What is each parent, how are they functioning? What is happening within them? How do they feel about themselves? You know, anybody who uh is identified as being uh a narcissistic, which is a very common term that is you know accused uh that that that is used to describe the custodial parent in cases where uh children are being brainwashed. Uh I I I say get away from the labels because in the court system now, if you want to make a difference for your child, identify the behaviors that are appearing. And you want to stop those behaviors, and that's what the points should be when someone is in court. Draw that uh to the attention of the judge and make it clear that this is not healthy, and and you were kind to reference my book, I'll hold it here, Preserving Family Ties, which by the way, much of it is free on Google Books. Um, but um if anyone is interested in the book, you know, they're like$4. You can get them on uh Westbow Press um or Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I've been fortunate to have my book being sold in Barnes and Noble's, but the the important thing about uh about the book is that for me, my goal was to provide a source of documented research that people can use in the court. And and so if you look at your own case, and as you read the book, um you know, and it's not written as a scientific journal needing a dictionary, you know, to translate, it's written in layman's terms, but the research is very clear, and there's also a framework of of what the divorce experience has been in this country, as well as the history of marriage, but uh but focuses on the research. You need to bring research into the court. If you don't, then you're allowing the judges to argue to make decisions based on their emotional feelings, you know, they decide the law, they don't necessarily use the law, and it's the uh and attorneys who I know have told me this, you know, not just Roseman, angry Roseman speaking. It breaks my heart, Marianne, because I work with the courts in the state of Florida. I started an agency called the Toby Center, named for my mother 10 years ago, and we provide child reunification services and supervised visitation and family therapy. And that was my goal when coming to Florida, because Florida was really among the more progressive states. They required mediation before parents split, and they understood that high conflict divorce required more help. So uh they uh accepted a position called uh a parent coordinator to act as another third party, as you were referring to, third parties. Uh the court is a major third party, but they have tools. One of the tools at great expense for a family is a parent coordinator. Uh, and they they work similar to a mediator, but they can slap you on the head, figuratively speaking, and say, look, I don't like that. That's not, you think that's best for your kid. You know, no, you're crazy. You know, you really do not understand, and that's unacceptable. And you have better think about it. You know, so a parent coordinator has more latitude than a mediator who's really trying to facilitate common understandings, common agreements, common compromises. Um, but if you don't go to the court with information and ammunition, which is in the form of research, at least referencing the research, then you're dependent upon, as I said, uh judges and attorneys too, arguing from an emotional standpoint. You can't argue from an emotional standpoint, sadly. I I feel that you need to argue logically. And that's why uh I would ask your listeners to think about what it is that they have argued in the court or have heard argued in the court or feel that they want to argue in the court. Nobody's case is all that different from anybody else's, fundamentally. With details, certainly. Fundamentally, no, because we keep we believe our kids have been uh brainwashed, they've been sabotaged, they have they are being affected and impacted uh emotionally and mentally. But you have to identify to the court what is happening specifically, what are the signs? What does the court need to know? Therefore, the court can decide you know what they could do. You know, they're a very digital um well, well, you've got to help me out here. Um it's uh it's simply their thinking, it's either yes or no, right or wrong. You know, it's it's not based on a broader understanding of human nature, and you know, they're not into that. They want to look, was law broken or was it not? And you have to show any decision that's made by law is going to impact my family. And therefore, you need to know what your decision is going to do and how you can improve it. That's the only way, I believe, that more of decisions in courts will be made more reasonably and appropriately.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I agree, Dr. Roseman. Um when you have been in court, can you spot a narcissist very quickly? Do you think the judge can spot the narcissist really quickly?
SPEAKER_04:Uh I don't think we should give judges the um the expectation that they are capable of doing anything except wanting to be out of that case, wanting to be out of that court. I I do think that when cases continue to come back to court, whoever the parent is that's bringing motions and the same motions or compounded motions, that judge is going to get ticked off. And you as a parent coming back to court is likely to antagonize that judge, but that's because that judge didn't do their job, and judges react emotionally, and they, I am sure, as individuals, I would like to think that uh that they will be aware of the motivations that one or the other party has in the courtroom. But I I would not put much credence or expectation that a judge is going to know uh who is acting out of their own selfishness, uh, who is um you know uh creating uh falsehoods or um fabricating stories, uh making complaints, uh they respond to key words. And you know, if you bring up domestic violence, judge's eyes light up, and you know, in in with respect to domestic island violence, they act generally uh to uh immediately do what they can to protect the party claiming domestic violence, particularly if it's female. Uh, and and so they are they uh there are certain terms that they respond to and they are jaded by, and and I I believe that they have a difficult time knowing what is truth. You know, the best judge I ever witnessed was in a movie, my cousin Vinny, and I recommend everybody watch that, you know, and by the way, you'll enjoy it, you will enjoy it, right? I saw your smile. You know, I probably see that movie who looks how law works, but then realizes how truth can come from testimony and from legal argument. And judges who are not open to that, but are really allowing themselves to rule by emotion or by connection, it's not permitting any fear decision making in the court.
SPEAKER_00:It just seems uh there's too many hands in the pot. You've got psychologists and you've got several psychologists, and then you've got the guardian ad lightems and the attorneys, and it it's just a big mess in there.
SPEAKER_04:It it is, it is, and it's an expensive one, and and those that go pro se over 30 percent, close to 40 percent of litigants are now pro se. And and I'm talking pre-pandemic uh you know, statistics. And you go to court pro se you're entering a minefield. You're entering a minefield. And I um I know that as parents who have studied the research, who have made copious notes of uh their children's behavior, of the other parents' behavior, uh, feel very well prepared. But you have to be able to present it in a way that is not um emotional, but is factual. Uh, any advice that I had been given many years ago, and which I've given over the years, is that if you're going to court, you have to conduct yourself as an attorney. And that means being dispassionate, being logical, and being focused. And if you're not, you're facing a very difficult time. And it is a minefield. Um, and I wish that people, more people, would be able to not only afford attorneys, and by the way, you can you can you can reach out to attorneys and you can make all kinds of deals and offers to them. Remember, I I want to add, Marianne, that anytime you go to court, I need each person to realize if you have an attorney, you are in control, not them. You do not give up your control to the attorney. You tell the attorney what your goal is and ask them, is it doable? How? What is your approach? Well, what would you do if this happens? And what would you do if that happens? And what do you see as the uh the path that you would want to set? And by the way, no, I don't have the$15,000 to give you right now. Are you agreeable to accepting a monthly payment of$50? Or can I give you, you know, uh uh um$1,000 now and$1,000 a month? You know, you have to come up uh with ways because it is so expensive. And attorneys, I'm not begrudging them, they put a lot of time uh in the cases and they know how to bill as well, which I also know from other attorneys, not just being on the billing end, but what they've revealed. So, but you are in the driver's seat, and if you lose control, not that you know anything about the court or the process, but if you lose control, you're cooked.
SPEAKER_02:You're cooked.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I mean, I enjoyed being pro se. I just behaved like they did. And I even talked to the judge like they did, like like we had gone to a a club the night before and talked about the case. Um, I felt I did very well. I did what my children wanted. Even when I had an attorney, the attorney called me into his office and said, you know, the kids just want to be with you. And I said, Well, they told me they want to go back to 50-50. So he said, Oh, okay, then we'll we'll do that. So, like you said, you are in the driver's seat, you're paying them, and they should do what you're asking, provided it's reasonable. And um, but there was really no chance for my case, being that the opposing attorney was uh in collusion with the judge. So I could have walked in there with a Hollywood team of attorneys and still would have lost.
SPEAKER_04:That's uh and and that's the sad thing. That's why I say that we all need to advocate for changes in family court. We need to professionalize it. You don't have to demean it, but it has gotten away for 30 years. It's gotten away from its role. And that's over the 30 years, that's true because the demands in the family court have increased. And so the need for judges has increased, and the need for to expedite cases has increased, and therefore, so has been the uh the the tragic um uh unsatisfying and unfair and and and illogical and completely wrong decision making by many judges historically. Um there's a new book that's been written by um uh Dr. Demosthenes Lorandos and Dr. William Burnett, and that's called Parental Alienation Science and Law. Uh and it's it's it's a large uh book, it's a new book which looks at case studies in this country, particularly where parental alienation has been identified. In more than 3,000 cases nationally, parental alienation was identified, it was mentioned, and uh over 1,500 provide the data of successful litigation of parental alienation. That all comes from their research of uh the legal archives known as Lexis Nexus, and that uh I would recommend that every attorney who really wants to improve their representation get a copy of that text. I reviewed it, in fact, for the American Journal of Family Therapy. It'll uh it'll be in this next issue. But that is the signature compendium for attorneys who are. concerned about representation of family of parental alienation in family courts and it's really critical that that information be referenced and used in every court case because any judge who says or any attorney in court who denies there is no parental alienation we know is full of it we also know that they don't belong in family court we also know that if they don't have any other questions that relate to different schema that a child expresses or acts or demonstrates in other ways of alienating behaviors then that judge and that attorney does not belong in the courtroom the role of the courts the mission of the courts needs to be further clarified and held accountable and we can only advocate to make that happen it's really it's really critical in in in in my book I discuss uh advocacy and may I may I read a definition I had written sure since I can't remember it that's okay that I'm like that too um advocacy is the proactive effort to change by public demonstrations conferences personal conversations with political leadership and sharing of information to those gatekeepers to agents of public policy change in order for change to occur you have to have messages that are focused and directed to all those that can impact the decisions and the considerations for those changes so the gatekeepers like legislative aides judicial assistants and the court that work with each judge your legislature has committees you you must identify who of those in your state legislature sit on the judicial committees uh on uh on other um um you know uh commissions that are addressing the nature of of family legislation or family statutes uh and if there isn't one you need to contact your legislator and say there needs to be and this is why and it's not just about you your case because to them it's a sorry case but it means nothing what do the constituents feel that's why rallies are important press conferences are important and it's not just videos on Facebook or postings in social media you need to be in the community now this is a pandemic it's a horrific time but you can schedule programs uh on zoom and uh other similar platforms and uh and and you need to everyone needs to plan right now i i worked in washington for many years for the children's rights council and i was uh fortunate in my life to work with the man who is referenced by dress salber as the uh the king of joint custody the man brought joint custody to nearly 30 states through testimony and research and i worked with him over many years that was david levy and uh david levy was my mentor in this and he always said among many things but if you want to change you have to make it happen and so figure out what in your community will allow you to become a community voice and then to take community action and ever for everybody there are similarities and there are also differences but you must you must and I think a lot of people are you know they don't know what to do they're so shell shocked when they walk out of family court and they're you know some people just throw their hands up in the air and just walk away because they're so beaten down from family court that there's no fight left in them uh that's Marianne that is so true and I remember you know 23 years ago the frustrations that I had in the court were so debilitating to me that I only saw one way out and that was death when I with the help of uh my sister who said she was in grad school at the time and she said you know why don't you sit back why don't you think of ways that you can make a difference and why don't you go back to school uh why don't you look for pathways and so I did so people need a break from the court but in a reorientation and if you reorient yourself and you begin to make choices for yourself and take steps in making into achieving certain um goals that you may have that's empowering and so to go from a courtroom where you had no power you were victimized and to take steps now which are proactive which you are in control of you are deciding and you are making the initiatives and making the efforts that is so life sustaining that is rejuvenating I I will tell you from not only my experience but the support groups that I was uh was involved in uh uh during my divorce it was and and and by the way I fought in court for five years so uh I was no stranger to the courthouse and the court clerks this was in New Haven Connecticut they um they recognized me because I come in pretty often I looked in my folders uh I began doing research in the library um and and uh and I just felt more more apart more accepted my presence but my my life changed when I became more proactive and uh uh I I I I would like to share with you Marianne that I uh uh I I have three steps that that's not rocket science but very helpful to anybody looking to deal with trauma and wanting to make changes and that is acknowledgement recognition and support and yet we have to acknowledge where we are now what our life looks like now what are we feeling now and recognize that now is momentary although so much has led to this current state of mind as well as our financial state our social state the lack of family the family support the lack of our access to our children for many I get it but we have to acknowledge all of this then we have to do we have to move to another step called recognition and that says you know I can feel sorry for myself and it's legitimate but while I do feel sorry for myself don't deny it feel it and say okay I'm in a real morass I'm in I'm in a real cavern I'm stuck but I don't want to be here this is where I'd like to be well that's what I'd like to do this is what I'd like to earn this is what I'd like to become if you begin to identify objectives that you would like in your life you deserve it you deserve it you are given life you know in Hebrew in English we say choose life no matter how we are feeling you know we have been blessed let's use that blessing even though the life as we feel now sucks let's choose life let's try to magnify it and so let's recognize where we would like to go what we would like to do what we'd like to become what skills we need what income levels we we want how we're going to sustain ourselves and then prepare a roadmap in achieving those goals and then thirdly realize you know there are a lot of buckets of help and support is critical so make a list who are those people that know the answers to your questions about how to create that roadmap to achieving certain objectives and talk to them reach out to them you can use social media you can use the telephone you can attend groups perhaps online at this moment hopefully we'll have vaccines that will give us more you know um uh health healthy uh security and safety but um you need support so I um Mary and I created a uh uh a company called Mark David Roseman uh and associates as part of my a multimedia organization of education support groups and consulting and resources for people who are suffering from parental alienation who are looking to change their life and we we we uh uh now are introducing this month uh new modular approaches in support groups support groups are great in general absolutely misery loves company been there done that for a long time but if you want to get to your path that you've recognized where you want to be what you want to achieve where you want to go what you what you want uh as a new addition then you need support and so we've designed uh for the targeted parent several levels of dealing with the shell shock of alienating and poor decision making in the courts to those of self-care and new directions and choice making and I would ask people you know uh to please take a look at you know uh Mark David Roseman and associates and and uh uh if you're a targeted parent particular and and see what what option there is for you because I think a structured approach in our life is extremely important and helpful it's not just pedantic you know these are peer facilitated but organized by trained and experienced um you know support group uh coordinators um but uh but we all need to go through the acknowledgement recognition and support and that's that's something I really urge everyone I think that sounds like an excellent program because some people they're going through the court process or they're coming out of the court process and they've got post-traumatic stress disorder and they're spinning their wheels with you know even their own counselors or whatever and um they're not progressing like you said you've got to progress and um because I too was feeling suicidal because it was just a very dark period but then I thought to myself the ex wants me dead so to tick him off I'm going to stay alive so I stayed busy found things to do whatever uh just continuously stayed busy and then you know for years something said you better write a book because people kept saying what happened what happened to your kids what happened to your job you know and so I thought well I think it's time to write the book but um and we are so uh rewarded because you did oh thank you I didn't want to write the book I really didn't want to dredge all that up because I was going through transcripts it's like I don't want to do this yeah it was just very in it um but I also use the book as a learning tool because it's only 160 pages long because my publisher said you want to be able to attract people to help them because you went through this and I've quoted psychologists and sociologists and even you know an attorney and I just put together you know how to act as a pro se how to you know talk to attorneys and and progress you know just from that and as far as dealing with your kids you know they are on their path of being brainwashed so I've got two of them that won't speak to me but that may change in the future but I'm going to stay busy and progress and the door's always open and what you've just said Marianne is really critical and and your listeners uh need to understand that what is in our life now is in our life now this does nothing is you know is in concrete it's in stone no that's not how life is life is fluid you know uh um it it's also said in Yiddish that the uh man makes plans and God laughs so not everything happens in the time that we would like it now others say that things happen for a reason and things happen at the time they're supposed to happen so although sometimes adages are helpful in understanding certain things about our lives I would say this remain as you've said Marianne remain hopeful leave doors open and live your life live your life in ways that are going to attract positive people and going to attract positive things you have to be content and that's a process because remember that recognition phase that I spoke of you need to be clear although you don't have to have everything uh listed for yourself but you need to be clear about some of the things that you want for yourself now short term and long term you need to begin putting that list together we have thought about these things I have no doubt I wish it wasn't this way we say of course and what would we wish for that it wasn't this way so what should it be?
SPEAKER_00:Begin with that and continue to build on that and as you do you're gonna find that you are creating a roadmap for you 25 years ago I was a financial advisor I became a PhD in family studies and high conflict divorce and therapy you never know you never know what happens with respect to your life and what your potential is and think of it that way life changes will help you God willing uncover new potential other opportunities we can't control everything that we would like but we don't have to give up on those things either so keeping that door open send letters to your children many things you can do to a child who is not seeing you doesn't want to see you so they say uh may not have may not have the ability to get through the gatekeeper you can in time that's true everything is in God's timing we don't have any control over that so that's why I just stay busy you know and I was wondering is there any advice or anything you would like to add when I got divorced and when I was thinking about who I am you know there are three questions who am I where am I going and how will I get there and I I began thinking about the things that made me that affected me emotionally what made me happy what made me sad what I enjoyed what I didn't like I was fortunate because I had at that time my own loving parents who supported me gave me just great recognition and acknowledgement and uh and believed in me and encouraged me but they were also very funny people and so I did stand up comedy for three years and I will tell you that that was a lifesaver for me.
SPEAKER_04:I found jazz which I've always enjoyed but jazz particularly was a big big help that was the music I wanted to listen to and uh and stand up comedy and uh I um I found that those were several things that gave me intense pleasure and so I would ask each of you in this new year not only keep busy as you said Marianne which is important but also as you are keeping busy find where you're gravitating find what's attracting you what's pulling you outside of the court process outside of the thoughts of your children you know we can have negative thoughts and we often do and it's okay but when they're on our shoulders we say you know what stay there or I'll talk to you another time just acknowledge them that's it find what gives you what grounds you what you enjoy what may test you in terms of your creativity you may return to certain avocations you had as a teenager or as a young adult or as a kid but fine something writing reading listening drawing different outlets.
SPEAKER_00:What is the outlet that you had at one time that you enjoyed come back to it that's that's excellent advice and um I kind of did that too I I was a writer a long time ago and then I went back and wrote this book you know and I used to ride horses and I just uh at this point at my age I just ride a schooled horse it's not I don't own one but um all we do is just walk around or trot around is help helpful for anxiety and horses are and you're riding now here well just once a week I believe it or not I got sick with COVID so I I haven't oh boy I know but uh yeah it's gonna take me a while I probably will wait another month because I'm just I'm just run down.
SPEAKER_04:Well I I I hope You heal more quickly than you think, and visualize you know, the horse, the horse riding that you want to do, and visualization is great. When I uh when I first divorced, uh, and I had my own insurance agency, this is almost 25 years ago. I was so depressed, and I was fighting in court, and I just felt awful. And there was a uh before I went into you know grad school, I I consulted a therapist who was in my building, and she was uh you know a much older woman, very experienced, and she said, um she's in her 70s, and she said, Mark, do you um you ever take a moment to visualize where you would prefer to be? And I said, No. Well, she closed the lights, she sat me back, she said, I want you to think I want you, and I'm going to give you a journey. And it was incredible, it was so relaxing, and it was so helpful because I found that I was going into a different environment that I wouldn't have conceived of. I wasn't ready to, certainly. Uh I was overwhelmed with all these negative thoughts on my shoulders. And um so visualization is is is is very important. Uh uh meditation, and if you listen to music, uh dim the lights, and and and groove, baby, just groove.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just staying positive as much as you can. And when those negative thoughts enter your head, you banish them. You've got to banish them. As painful as they are, you have to still keep moving.
SPEAKER_04:You do. And with music, it's easier for me. I found it very easy to do that. Um but I needed that quite often. So um find I I I would ask, you know, your um, you know, your listeners to uh make suggestions to what has been helping them or what has helped them or what they may like to try. You know, New Year's resolutions, you believe in it, you don't believe in it. It's the beginning of the of the year. So I would say forget about what you believe in, what you don't believe in. Write down on a piece of paper one thing that you want to do for yourself that is new, that you want to try, that is new. And it could be baking in the kitchen, could be trying another food, taking getting a takeout somewhere. And let Mary Ann know. Marianne, you should invite people, I think, to share their ideas and begin to post them. I think that would be really lovely.
SPEAKER_00:I think so too. I think so too. Um, I'd like to have you back on in a couple months if you'd like to come back on slam the gavel.
SPEAKER_04:I would be delighted. I would be honored.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's great. So, like, okay, again, how can people reach you?
SPEAKER_04:Thank you. Um, the uh uh the best way would be to to email me. Um and uh they can email me at at my name uh Mark period Roseman. Mark Roseman with a dot in between my first and last name at markdavidroseman.com. They can visit uh uh my website, markdavidroseman.com, and they can find a form, they can email me. Um and uh those would be the uh you know the better ways, uh most expedient ways uh to reach me. And I would welcome anybody's inquiry or comment uh or recommendation. Um and I uh I do hope uh and the first person that contacts me will get a free book.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's great. And you're doing wonderful work with the Toby Center and thank you.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you. Yes, may I say something briefly about that? Sure, sure. Well, thank you. Um I created uh an agency 10 years ago in Florida called the Toby Center for Family Transitions, and uh I may have said earlier that we are connected with uh six court systems in Florida. We provide child reunification therapy and supervised visitation uh to families in South Florida and Central Florida. We're looking to expand uh to uh northern Florida. Uh we are in Connecticut now in Ohio. If your community has need for uh working with an agency to provide these services uh where there is no agency, contact me. We're always looking uh increasingly to expand our services, our role. It's a nonprofit agency, and we've been fortunate to finally get funding to pay for parents uh in South Florida who lost incomes, did not have the money to see their children through these court-ordered services. We have been able to do that for the last three months uh without charge to uh South Florida families. So I'm so grateful for that. But that money has run out. Yeah, but um but um but uh if people have ideas and they want to share them with me, uh Marian, I'm really happy to you know uh to comment and I I I I welcome that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's great. You're doing great work, and I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you very much. And I you because you have done the same thing. You have taken a lemon and made lemonade. A little more sugar would be great. Yes, yes, for COVID, recovery complete, and more horseback riding. That's the sugar.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's what that's what my counselor said. She said she wants me on the horse and getting rid of the anxiety.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. Um, many years ago, uh I I taught college at University of Connecticut, uh, pardon me, um uh University of New Haven, excuse me. And um uh I was on a uh I'm not a veteran, but I was invited to serve on the Veterans Council and help with new programs uh with veterans, which was really an honor for me. Uh and uh we located a uh um a uh a stable that had been doing some work with uh writing therapy with autistic children. And I and another uh another colleague who was a a uh a professor and a veteran himself reached out and met with that uh that uh stable to see if they would consider working with uh veterans who have PTSD and which can make it available to students who were coming back from the Iraq war, who are working in uh who are coming back to school. You know, there was no transition for the soldier. If you know a soldier, you know, that's come out of the combat theater, they have no downtime, they have no transition. It it's terrible what this government, how this government treats our soldiers, I believe. There needs to be much more uh assistance for them. Uh, at least that's what I had learned uh 11 years ago, and following communications. Anyway, horseback riding, make that on your recognition list.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely, definitely. Well, slam the gavels a podcast to help the public understand what really goes on in the family courtrooms that in turn perpetuate parental alienation. I am your host, Marianne Petrie, author of Dismantling Family Court Corruption and Cry Out for Justice, Poems of Truth. Please join us again, and we will have Dr. Roseman on in the future. And thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you, everybody.