Slam the Gavel
Slam the Gavel
Jodi Peary, JD, PhD discusses divorce and coparenting and the many ways Family Court can make communication difficult
Jodi Peary, JD, PhD is on Slam the Gavel with her expertise of working at the intersection of law and psychology. Dr. Peary is sharing some of the ways Enlightened CoParenting as a holistic approach, can help families to heal and still feel like a family despite divorce. Communication is key but focusing on the details of communication alone often leads to two parents gritting their teeth and being polite for a period of time. When differences arise, the communication rules go out the window.
In Enlightened CoParenting there is a focus on incorporating emotional intelligence in children which ends up influencing the emotional intelligence of parents. It also deepens the relationship between parent and child which can help to lower the level of anxiety parents have when the child is with the other parent. Healing for the parent themselves reinforces their parenting strengths.
Dr. Peary discusses the actionable points for achieving improvement to CoParent, to CoParent relationships, parent-child relationships which is really important for teens but can be scaffolded with younger kids before they are teens, and relationship with self.
Dr. Peary is also running a class and to sign up please go to: course.enlightenedparenting.com
Dr. Peary can be reached at: enligtenedcoparenting.com
course.enlightenedparenting.com
www.DrJodiPeary.com
jodipeary@drjodipeary.com
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I'm the host of the country, and I'll have Dr. Jody Hulk. Now, she's a divorce and co-company expert working at the intersection of law and psychology. Now, she would like to share some of the ways enlightened co-parenting is a holistic approach and can help families to heal and still feel like a family despite divorce. Communication is key, but focusing on the details of communication alone often leads to two parents gritting their teeth and being polite for a period of time. When differences arise, the communication rules go out the window. In enlightened co-parenting, there is a focus on incorporating emotional intelligence in children, which ends up influencing the emotional intelligence of parents. It also deepens the relationship between parent and child, which can help to lower the level of anxiety parents have when the child is with the other parent. Healing for the parent themselves reinforces their parenting strengths. That is what we like to discuss with actionable points for achieving improvement to co-parent, to co-parent relationships and parent-child relationships. And it's really important for teens, but can be scaffolded for younger kids before they are teens. And relations relationship with themselves. And I'm so glad we have Dr. Jodi on right now. And uh she's going to explain some more for us so we can understand all her good work. So good evening.
SPEAKER_01:Good evening, Marianne. I'm so excited to be here with you and your listeners. I am really grateful to have the opportunity to share about the enlightened co-parenting approach. So I have been working with this for about 10 years in my private practice. And when COVID came and I began seeing my clients online, kind of just opened up the whole world to me. I hadn't really thought about working outside of my own community. But I started to see people from all over the country and even the world talking about inline co-parenting. And so I created a course, the online co-parenting course. But overall it's it's a way of making what seems it can seem impossible, making it intuitive. So it's it's designed to really effectuate change at a few different levels, because whenever we have an issue that arises between co-parents or something with the co-parenting plan, you know, we just want to look at it through three different angles. First, the um the co-parent to co-parent relationship, and you know, what are the roles between these co-parents? We inevitably get stuck in a lot of communication patterns from the marriage. That's just the way our brains work. And so we see the other person and/or we hear the other person, or we receive an email from the other person, and immediately we can got our brain says, Oh, you know exactly what's going to happen here. This is the conversation you need to have with this person. And so, what I try to do is in this first um element, the co-parent to co-parent relationship is really help co-parents break that former cycle of communication and um begin to speak to each other as co-parents, with the idea being, you know, it this might be difficult at first, but because it's so good for our kids, we're going to try and step outside that that circle of communication. And you kind of have to have each other's back a little bit because it's easy to slip back in to that kind of old communication pattern. But if both parents know that something they're trying to do, then it makes it um all the more possible. So that's the first um of the three areas. Then we also have to look at the parent-child relationship. And one of the things um I'll just say that I actually went through divorce myself, have three little kids. Um, it was not easy at all. And I, you know, every week when my kids would go to their co-parents' house, it was almost like its own mourning period, right? I mean, it's very different from the divorce mourning, right? It's just like, wow, I was used to having them with me all the time. And so one of the things I love about the enlightened co-parenting method is it speaks to that. It's about being able to kind of even use this time when you don't get to have as much time with your kids to deepen your relationship with them. Uh, so how do we do that? We work on emotion-focused parenting with the idea that uh we really want to feel, have our kids feel that all of their emotions are okay. Um, they're all good, they're all acceptable. It's just, you know, behaviors. What can we do to have problem-solving kind of behaviors? And so we're not saying all behaviors are okay, but we are saying like let's be open and accepting of our emotions. That actually requires parents to also be accepting of their emotions, so it's really hard to, you know, empathize if we don't accept our own emotions. So we get into that in the course as well. The other part about the parent-to-child relationship is looking at um resilience. And when my own research is with children who grew up with parents with mental illness, and in that research, I just wanted to know like what are the variables that help a emerging adult. I worked with um 18 to 25 year olds, what are the what are the variables that led to them either having a healthy young adulthood or more challenging young adulthood? And I wish I could say that there was one variable that we found, but um really it's a collection of variables. And so the whole thing and the whole thing behind and line co-parenting is how can we maximize children's strengths and opportunities as well as minimize risk. So nobody needs to be a perfect parent, and actually that wouldn't be very healthy for any of us if we had perfect parents. Um, and we don't have perfect kids and we don't need to have perfect families. But what we can do is see how we can take those risks or challenges and minimize their influence on children, and then just maximize all the things they have going for them. So through that, we do this emotional intelligence approach, really helping children to identify and understand their emotions, to empathize with others' people's feelings, and really being able to feel that they can like regulate their emotions but also experience them. And then the last element is the part where, and this is what I think is absolutely unique to in laying co-parenting as well, is to work on our relationship with ourselves because it's very hard to be a co-parent, a good one, and deal with all of the things going on in our lives at the same time if we're also in you know a difficult space ourselves. So it typically takes about two to three years to recover from divorce, and I mean to say that we um we need to take that time, right? We need to heal and we need to do whatever we need to do to feel that we can come into this new life with some resolution of the past. So I in line co-parenting isn't meant to shorten that time, but what it's meant to do is help you to begin the co-parenting even while you're still in that healing process. So, because two to three years is a long time in the life of a child, and um, and so if parents can continue to heal and create well-being for themselves, at the same time minimizing risk and challenge for kids, and also create new communication patterns altogether, um, I've found that it's really a healthy approach.
SPEAKER_00:Now, when you um you have these parents, you you co-parent, you have two parents in your office at the same time.
SPEAKER_01:Well, um, so since COVID, I do not. Um we've been meeting online, but yeah, but beforehand I did. And actually, I learned something really um wonderful through this, which is I think in the future I do want to have these meetings be virtual so that parents don't necessarily need to be in the same room. Um, so it's gonna be really up to you know individuals and and how they wish to work with a professional, but um I think there's so much that individuals can do themselves to help in the process, and then meeting with um another person, a third party who's neutral can facilitate communication, I think it's a great idea to do it online because it kind of takes away some of the pressure.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's true too. Um, because what do you do it like before COVID? If you had two parents and I, you know, um, I know a lot of people don't want to use the term narcissist, but what if you had a difficult parent that just was behaving badly in your office and then just walked out the door and saying, I'm not doing this anymore?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, well, I wish I could say it never happened, but it does. So um, you know, there tend to be a great number of um people presenting with some narcissism within the high conflict space. Um, sometimes that personality actually contributes to higher conflict, and so um we can't make anybody do something they don't want to do, however, working with the other parent and also helping that other parent work with their child actually helps to influence the more narcissistic parent, I guess you could say, and the the that influence actually has an effect in the family system. However, to the extent that this other parent who's uncooperative remains sort of removed from wanting to engage in the healthy co-parenting, uh, all the more reason we need our kids to have that resilience and to really understand that they are loved by both parents, that there isn't, if there's any kind of false representation and things going on by the narcissistic parent, we want that child to feel connected to their other parent even when they're not with them. So it's something called connected presence, where we work on um the parent and the child really feeling that they're kind of together, even if they're apart. Um, but usually, usually people do stay, um, even if they have more narcissistic personalities. Actually, some people are court-appointed to visit, and I um would say that's not a great idea. Right. Because people, you know, um the last thing they need is to have me forced upon them. It does not work at all. And um, so people, you know, you have to want, want to be a part of it, I believe. And um so, but even with really, really high conflict cases, we want to get to, you know, they both love this child, right? They both want to keep the child safe. How can we do that? How can we both realize that this child is missing something enormous if their other parent isn't in their life, right? So um it's kind of appealing to that deep love that a parent has, is what I try to do.
SPEAKER_00:What do you do? Like if it's court appointed that these parents have to talk to you, and the one parent, like I said, is misbehaving and walks out. Do you notify the judge and let them know this is this is what happened?
SPEAKER_01:And I I actually so I won't, I will not do the work if I have to talk to the court. You know, I I always want to keep confidentiality and I so I I will the other parent can go back to their lawyer and identify that, but I I tend to want to stay out of the court system as much as possible. Um, and so I, you know, I'm just I'm there to help. If I can help, I offer everything I can. If it, if I, if I'm if it's not wanted, then you know, so be it. But um, you know, try to keep me an an open heart, an open door. Um, and because things change over time. So the other thing that happens is sometimes people are getting along great at first. But as children go through each developmental stage, new things arise, new issues arise, new challenges arise. Also, parents are changing, so they might get a new job, they might have to live farther away. So there's like always these challenges as a really dynamic family system. Um, so again and again, we want to have this foundation of some mutual respect, and it's not something that can be forced on, it's it's a lot of influence, let's put it that way. But I I actually work with the other parent a lot in terms of helping them to sort of disarm that very um defensive posture of the other party. So, what do we do? We talk to the left side of the brain instead of the right side of the brain, and so we want to be really factual and firm, um, friendly, you know, but as soon as we get into a long story, as soon as we get into advice or a lot of emotions, then the other person is ready to just attack, they're not ready to listen. So, part of inline co-parenting is to say, yeah, we accept that it's not all roses for everybody, sadly. And um, but how can we, as the parent who cares, be able to communicate with this other person in a way that at least what we think is the best interest of the child, that we can pursue that within the co-parenting relationship.
SPEAKER_00:So uh when you're talking to these parents, uh are are you doing family counseling as well, like even with the child or no? No.
SPEAKER_01:So I don't meet with children, I work just with parents. And um, that's because I really prefer to be just a facilitator, right? Just to kind of um teach a new way of being rather than to be somebody who reports things, and um, it's just so as you noted, I think in the beginning I used to be a lawyer, and one of the um areas that I think is most difficult is the extent to which the family court system can make communication near to impossible with between co-parents. Um, and so there is, first of all, just the rules themselves. I mean, who I don't know if your listeners have ever had to file anything with a court, but if it's family court in all the states, it's completely archaic. There's so many deadlines, it's impossible for a lay person to be able to actually navigate. So then you have to use a lawyer. As soon as you bring another lawyer in, we're dealing with a lot of adversarial um communication. Then the parents aren't even talking to them to each other because they have to talk through the lawyers. Uh, the court comes in, then the court has their experts that come in, and the expert is supposed to be more important than the parent themselves in terms of defining the relationship. So um, so I, you know, I'm one who wants to come at it more as a psychologist than as a former lawyer, but I understand the context, and I think that's why enlightened co-parenting can be effective. It's not like I'm ignoring those legal challenges or the way judges and attorneys and experts can make it difficult. I'm trying to just work around it, um, work as best as we can within that context. Did that answer your question?
SPEAKER_00:Kind of. Sorry. I know that no, you're fine. You're fine. So, do you feel that there is more corruption in the family court system? Uh like using these parents as uh, I don't know, guinea pigs, cattle, running them through the gauntlet of family court? What do you think?
SPEAKER_01:I would say the system is I I don't know if I would give them the intent of being corrupt, but I do think that it's first of all, if you don't have a ton of money, you're not going to be able to do much of anything. Um, and there will be experts galore piled on top of on top of experts, and there you know, if the other party has a lot of money, uh basically, whatever you can pay for, you can bring into Family Core. Um, I think that the whole expert, um, the the kind of the presumably normal way of just bringing in expert versus expert to just counter each other and say anything. Um, I think that has its own um actual detriment to everybody involved. I think the children can really get lost in this system. Um, every state is different, but almost all states are backlogged in terms of being able to even come into court. Um, so you know, overall, I think anything we can do to stay out of court is probably the best thing we can do for ourselves and our family. So it's like if you still want to be a family at the end of this, let's um do what we can not to make this a court problem, let's make it something we work through. It's just like another developmental stage for us as a family. I mean, it is sad when marriage ends and um and it is a grieving process, but to have to carry it into you know a child's life for a long time is and to so the extent to which the court somehow perpetuates that I think is a real problem.
SPEAKER_00:Because I feel the family court even perpetuates um alienation on a target parent. And I've heard of these judges writing no contact orders in any crazy way. And uh then that just also makes your job harder.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:Because you've got yeah, go ahead. Well, I you know, so if I'm in a situation working with parents and I see the one parent is actually using the litigation against the other parent, I mean that just doesn't apply with me. I'm not gonna get involved. Um, you know, that's not where I want to be. I want to be helping people actually have a conversation, but um, so there is um there is a lot of not really looking to the parent as any kind of expert of their own experience or expert of their child and always looking outside the family to know what's right and what's wrong. Um, I don't think that the system adequately responds to um, you know, issues like um if one person is just now starting to get back to work. And um, so there there are a lot of ways to manipulate the system, I guess you could say. And um to the extent that there isn't a lot of leeway for someone who's you know, either getting back into work, who's who actually needs to work in a different job, who needs to find a new home, all of those things that are really part of real life, I don't think that they're adequately considered because it's all about, you know, just let's just talk about um this child, and if you can't be there at so-and-so to pick them up at so-and-so, you're done, right? So um, in terms of the no contact and all the uh I really have a hard time with all those. Um, I mean, obviously, if it's a situation where a child is can be harmed, we never ever want to put them in that situation, but to the extent it's so easy to say you can only have supervised parenting, and then there's a uh supervisor there who really just is sitting there with you in your two hours with your child, um, that really hurts the child. It it and it's not going to instill uh a sense of hopefulness for the future in that child. I think it puts the parent in a situation where it's really, really hard to show their love and. Caring because they're, you know, they have this one hour with somebody watching. Um, so I definitely am really sympathetic to uh the notion that, you know, you can really get railroaded. I mean, you can lose what's most precious to you pretty quickly if you don't have the money to fight it. And um, or if you, you know, choose a different resources. And um yeah, so it that's the saddest thing, I think, was when there is alienation. It's so harmful for children, um, heartbreaking for parents, but really children are missing, you know, a whole part of it's all part of who they are and um themselves.
SPEAKER_00:So do you also find, I don't know if you are counseling grandparents as well. Do you counsel them?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I do work with grandparents um sometimes because sometimes a grandparent is the um the other um co-parenting party. And so yeah, we want to, but even when it's two parents, I try to work with parents about co-parents because we want to have some healthy boundaries in place. Um, often, so one of the ways that I think we can deal with things like the court system, things like outside parties like parents and grandparents and lawyers is to be really detailed in the parenting plan. So when the parenting plan doesn't address anything about what kind of relationship we're gonna have with co-parents, um, you know, it it kind of leaves a free-for-all. However, um, grandparents who are not supporting the biological parent, you know, that's absolutely an issue, right? So the idea being the same thing we do with difficult parents, we want to do with either with difficult grandparents and with healthy parents, with healthy grandparents, which is maximize opportunity and minimize risk. Everything we can do to help a child feel they are loved, they can't have too much love. So that's kind of the basis. Is this something that's gonna help them to feel more loved, more stable, less anxious? Then we want to increase it. Um, if it's not, then we want to do whatever we can to either change it or limit it. So that's from my perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Now, how many grandparents would you say that you get how often do you see them?
SPEAKER_01:Not much. You know, I do have to say, um, I wish it were, I wish it were more. And that is an audience I'd love to work with because they are um, you know, kind of starting again in in um, you know, and and so much of family uh law, family psychology is not just horizontal like everything going on now, but it's also vertical, it's passed down through generations. And so um grandparents actually have the chance to, if they didn't have the best relationship with their child, they actually have the chance to, you know, start anew. Um and if they had a good relationship with their child, but they're involved because something happened with the child, um, no matter what, I I choose to look at the situation as one of how can we have more love for the kids. I drove past um my my daughter actually is in her first year at Berkeley this year, so it was a long time ago that she went to this elementary school. But um I drove past the elementary school and there was this big sign up about you know, uh grandparents' welcome at the so-and-so PTA thing. And I was like, yes, because there are so many parents who are out there doing the parenting, and um they they should be included and welcomed.
SPEAKER_00:What do you think of grandparents that are you might have a parent come in and say, well, you know, the other grandparent of the other parent is interfering and making matters worse.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:This happens too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know it does. And so boundaries, um, one of the things we work in in this inline co-parenting is healthy boundaries. And all of the things we have in place to work with a really difficult other parent, I think we need to also extend into the wider family. Um, so I give parents resources for themselves, like how to deal with um extended family, but it's it's not easy. And the thing that happens is because it's coming from that parent, it's automatically discounted. So, you know, if we could get grandparents to also want to be part of this healthy co-parenting, that's you know, so much, so much better for everyone. Um, a lot of times they have a fear that they're gonna lose contact with the child. Um, you know, and so in terms of parental rights, I mean, parents are are have the rights to their children. Um how about like working with those parents in order to have access to children, in order to spend time with children instead of trying to, you know, ascertain your own rights? I mean, generally speaking, there are all kinds of different circumstances, but um when grandparents make it worse, so there's actually a study that shows that if you um if you are uh let's say your parent is somebody who tends to talk about your ex or talk about all the things going on, the research shows that the parent whose family talks negatively is much less likely to consider forgiveness and also to engage in settlement. So they there is a profound impact by extended family, and it's a challenge, but it's definitely one you know we try to work with.
SPEAKER_00:What do you do when uh a parent will just come to you and say this is parental alienation, and they're telling you all these signs and symptoms the child is having, and uh and what if they're lying to you?
SPEAKER_01:Um, well, so okay, so if someone's lying to me about parental alienation, yes. So I would um I guess it does depend what role I'm in with them. So if I'm there to help them personally, then we want to, you know, address what what is what's underlying, what what why had you know maybe they have this mechanism that was somehow adaptive for them when they were at a different point in life and now they're using it in a way that's not healthy. So um if they're coming to me in a co-parenting context, then I would ask, you know, we want to address what what are the dynamics here? Um, are we still in that former cycle of conflict? Do we feel that um we're going to like it it's kind of complicated, but it it's almost a sense of um someone can feel that they're losing their identity by going through divorce, and so they, you know, there's a lot they need to do to maintain um, you know, the drama of divorce also can feel like it's forestalling the inevitable, and um so we want to you know face that. What can we work through? Um, and that's that's part of the process. So I guess it depends how what role I'm in with the person, but no matter what, I I try to look at people as that they have these mechanisms in place because at some point in their life it worked for them to engage that way. They have maybe fears from the past. Um, you know, so typically I think it it starts earlier in life, let's put it that way. But that's why we want to do a healthy co-parenting because we don't want to pass that down to our kids. So um, with doing emotion-focused parenting, emotional intelligence in children, we can really help them to have healthier attachment relationships going forward. But yeah, these are all challenging cases you're bringing up, Marianne.
SPEAKER_00:It's really I'm so sorry to do that.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm glad you are. I mean, I I want to answer them all. Um, and I'm glad you are. And that's really the the heart of the work is to actually help the people who are having the hardest time, um, not just, you know, people who who can't agree on um whether they should have dairy or not, you know, something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Another weird question, you know, people go into court and suddenly they're labeled, we'll say, we'll say mentally ill, or there's been another false accusation of child abuse, we'll say. Like, how often do you hear? I mean, you probably can't even co-parent with these co-parents that are or these parents that are calling out these accusations. Right.
SPEAKER_01:So um, well, okay, so with regard to accusations of mental illness is actually something that um is very difficult. And I I heard you refer to CPS when you were beginning the show. And so one of the things that happens is there's a conflict of interest can arise. So the parent themselves um may be in a position where they don't have their own um counsel or their own person on their side, advocate, they don't have their own advocate. Um, the the person who's there who kind of seems like they're there for the family, are actually there for not necessarily the whole family. And so one element is um, you know, how about parents, even those who are actually, you know, dealing with mental illness, which is like any other illness, right? Um, and so parents shouldn't be discriminated against. Um, but one thing is how can the parent actually get help for that mental illness without it being used against them? Or not just mental illness, there are mental um, you know, issues that are arising, whether it's anxiety, stress. Divorce brings out all kinds of things in people. I I was, you know, not my best self when I was going through divorce, that's for sure. And um so, you know, how can we um help a person to be their best self, respect that, um, and give them the sense that they also have somebody they themselves can talk to who's not gonna go talking to anybody else. They should have a confidential party that they can get help from or they can speak to about another person challenging their capacity. Uh, also, I see when parents um will say, oh, because this parent has a certain medication, they're not able to parent, which just then leads to the parent not feeling like they can't take the medication, which then leads to further problems. So that's actually in line with my my research, which was with kids who grew up with parents with mental illness. And the way those parents, um, you know, the the absence of those parents in their kids' lives, it definitely has a profound impact. And it didn't have to be that way, right? It really didn't have to be that way. There um there are ways that we can have time and space to work through these things.
SPEAKER_00:Say you have a parent with anxiety and depression, and they're just taking your basic anxiety and depression medications, but somehow it comes out in court, and then you know, I mean, I think anxiety and depression is a common cold of America, but it will be used against you in court and they will take your kids away. And so Yeah, it's horrendous. Yeah, you know, um, what do you do with these parents that are so beside themselves saying, Well, if I'm if I'm if I was depressed then, I'm really more depressed now after having my kids taken away.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, so yeah, so that kind of discrimination against somebody for, I mean, we wouldn't be discriminating against them if they had um diabetes or something, you know what I mean? So that kind of discrimination is um terrible. The um other issue is that, yeah, again, they need to have some confidentiality with regard to, I mean, this has nothing to do with the safety of the children. They need to have confidentiality with their own medical professionals. Um, and that's so that's why I don't want to ever, like I will never testify in court about anybody because it just doesn't help. And then and and I can't be honest and be true about actually helping people. Um, but yes, so we want to see, you know, some of the issues of anxiety and depression are definitely going to be escalated for everybody during the divorce period itself and sometimes for a while after. But that in no way should handicap the person's ability to parent. Um, and if you do not want to pass down these things, then you want to actually uh have children learn from their parent. Like a parent can say, you know, I'm really sad today. Um, but don't worry, I'm gonna be okay. You know, I I could take care of myself, I could take care of you. But you know, some days are sad. This divorce is hard. Mommy needs like a little time just to have some tea, and you know, but don't worry about me. But yeah, I'm having a hard time. Um I think that that's all part of it. So anybody who would use that against a parent, um, you know, I'd be sad to hear that that's still within within the realm of something that happens.
SPEAKER_00:I'm finding that it that is, and also just child abuse allegations that turn into indications, and then before you know it, you have a caseworker on the stand, um, you know, just saying whatever in favor of the other parent. I I'm sure you've seen it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I actually, yeah. And I did a webinar the other day about enlightened co-parenting, and a parent asks that question, you know, what about if there's false allegations, will enlighten co-parenting work? Um, so to the extent we want to have the child feel loved as well as by this parent who's being falsely accused, to the extent that we need for everybody to be able to work through fear and stress and all whatever the things are that are contributing to this very unhealthy conflict, that's that's what we need to do. So I think in situations like that, more than ever, how do we speak to that other parent in a way that is, I mean, you have to be careful. I don't want to suggest that there isn't any risk involved in interacting with somebody who makes false accusations because we know there it is. But how to what extent can we aim to speak to them in a way that neurologically helps to keep the conversation at more at a lower level that doesn't um spark their need to be aggressive back? Um and but but these are all really challenging, no question. These are such challenging issues. Um, but I say, you know, don't give up. I mean, you've got to fight it because these are your kids and you are important to them. They need you and you need them. So um, and and hopefully things like this do come out.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I I hope. Right. Have you ever had a parent just come in and say, I can't afford it anymore, I can't afford to fight anymore, and this is what's happening. They handed the kids over to the other parent, and now I'm a non-custodial parent, and I I can't do this anymore. Right. You know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I definitely have. So that's um, so part of it is if you're somebody who can pay to have your lawyer bring in all kinds of experts and whatever, I mean, ultimately um it it's impossible to just defend those those um tactics. And I have had parents who have had to say, you know, I hope when they're older, older, we'll be able to have a relationship. It's very hard and it's very sad. Um, so in those cases, I work with I have worked with parents in that situation, and we talk about um let's are there any um what are the ways we can actually still whether it's communicate or um have this some connection with our child, have some presence in their life, even if we're not able to um you know have them for 50% of the time, you know, what can we do? So we want to do we want to ground the children in the relationship. We want to really root them with things like rituals, things like so you know, let's say you only get your kids one week a month. Um, so you know, during that week you want to have something, a hello ritual, a goodbye ritual, then it lasts, right? It's like it gives the child the sense of that connection. Um, you want to have the, you know, maybe every Wednesday you get pizza and you read a certain kind of story, whatever it is, it's something that the child can look forward to. It really roots your relationship with them, even if you're not when even when you're not physically with them. Um, and also in terms of you know, always working to get the communication during the time you don't have the child, so FaceTime, um, telephone, text, whatever you can do to be present. Um, I also work with parents who like when kids are little, it's very difficult because when they're with the other parent, they're with the other parent, they're not out in the public space. Once kids go to school, they um and we're not in COVID, you know, they have lunch. So I used to go on on the weeks I didn't have my kids, I would bring each kid a different day, I'd bring them lunch, right? I mean, I was blessed because my work, I could put it around that. Not everybody can, but that was something I could do. So I would, you know, I would see them always when I didn't have them by either bringing them lunch, I'd go to try to go to soccer practice. It's really hard because as parents, we use that week off to get all our work done so that we can be there and present during the weeks that we do have them. But um if we can, um, most court orders don't say that you can't be there to experience your child when they're at soccer practice and all those kind of things. So I say, you know, do whatever you can to um really foster that connection. But definitely hello and goodbye rituals are important, rituals during the week, having um just all these certain ways that you and your child do something or say something or sing something really helps to deepen that connection. But it is sad. I have seen people give up.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes. I mean, with the rituals like you're it helps the child remember because what if that child just doesn't come over as much? But hopefully they'll remember what the parent was, you know, singing or doing. And you know, um I've talked to Dr. Mark Roseman, and he has said with the family court and the alienation, it's it's just drawing six future generations.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I imagine that is absolutely true.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, so the all of these things are passed down. Um, and they're passed down into the children's adult relationships and also into the children's own parenting relationships. Um, and and you we can break these cycles because you know we just have to be aware and be willing to step outside them, but we can we can stop that from happening. I mean, there are generations of kids who you know have never seen and they grew up without a parent and then they end up having a child without the other parent because it's what's happened.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right. So it the cycle repeats itself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So so sad. And I actually, well, I talk about this because some people ask me, you know, is divorce inherited? I mean, I most of my clients will say that their parents got divorced and they vowed that they would never get divorced, that you know, it was so important to them, they would never put their children in a situation like the one they grew up in, which I could totally relate to because that's what I did, right? And I never, ever, ever, none of us go into a marriage thinking we're going to be divorced. But I have to say, I didn't learn in my family of origin how to deal with conflict, how to have a healthy relationship. So when you're alienating one parent, when you're minimizing another parent's um ability to be with the child, you're also not teaching them conflict resolution skills, you're not teaching them how to have a close relationship with another person, even if you don't belong. Um, there's so much so. Um my parents lived on opposite ends of the country. And when it came time for me to be married with all my heart and soul, I wanted it to be to work out. But I have to say now, looking back, I just didn't have the skills because I didn't learn them in my own family. Um, yeah, so I had to quit my job as a lawyer and become a psychologist to figure it out. Wow. That's the thing I'd wish upon anybody else.
SPEAKER_00:That's amazing, though. I mean, your work is very helpful to these parents, in which they need they need emotional support. And especially during this these times of divorce and family court. And um what I have learned from family court is that they just interfere and they pacify um the abusive parent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And they go after the target parent, and then you don't stand a chance. That's all I've learned.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I I can see why you would um see the world from that perspective, and I know so many people did, and if I had been um in their shoes, I would see it that way as well. Um, it I and I have clients, I mean, it is heartbreaking. They, you know, they they have, I mean, all of a sudden the court says you need to go into like you have to have, okay, so one thing that's common is all you have to do is say the other person drinks, for instance. So I'm thinking of a particular client that never drank. So often the person who's accusing the other is the one that actually has the things. So the other parent actually was somebody who drank a lot, um, said that this parent uh had a drinking problem. They they didn't, but they had to agree to alcohol testing just because they um just because it was thrown out there. And then if they said no, it would be like, oh, well, obviously you have an addiction problem because otherwise you would agree, right? So this guy who's you know really fighting just to be with his little girl, um, undergoes this alcohol testing for every single week for three months. It costs him a hundred dollars a week. I mean, this is like so much money. So when it comes to accusations regarding drug and alcohol, that's a tough space to be in because if you say no, then the court's like, well, if you have nothing to hide, why won't you do the testing? Um, really hard to get sometimes you can get the other parent to have to pay for it. But even then, I mean, who has time to leave their work and go, you know, to a testing site? And so disrespectful, also. I mean, to just have to do all of that, and there's so much shame around all of this stuff, and the more we can do to minimize that shame, because that's another thing that gets passed down. Kids absolutely are sensitive to that their parents' experience of that shame, and um, and they feel it themselves too because they identify with their parent. Um, so whenever we're shaming this other parent, we're actually shaming our child. Um, but I have found that it's it's very easy to proclaim that another person who's never had a DUI, who's ever been fired from a job, who has there's no evidence out there, but to simply say that um they have an issue with drugs or alcohol, which leads to testing, um, which also leads to not being able to afford to go forward. So um, and even those supervised visits there are so expensive, you know, there's it you you are in a position where you want to show that who you are and what you're about, and that there aren't any problems here, but you have to pay so much to do it that you you may some for some people they have to just walk, walk away, and that's the least healthy thing for their for their kids. And it doesn't help the other parent. The other parent, the person who makes the false accusations, the parent who doesn't want the other parent to have the children. That parent is actually they're not so happy themselves, right? So, I mean, I think it actually helped, you know, it'd be healthier. You're actually helping the other parent if you're trying to mitigate that conflict, because for them, life is miserable and their kids' life over there is going to be miserable because it's all about that drama, um, which is definitely not uh conducive to parents or children healing.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so one last question because I won't bombard you any further. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01:I think these are good questions. I um these are good questions. I mean, this is what I need to really hear these kind of questions because um, you know, I want to come at it from a place of being able to work with all kinds of situations and people in different situations. So I I need to hear what's going on in the world in order to do that.
SPEAKER_00:So say you're on Zoom with two parents, and the one is just saying, um, you know, the kids don't want to be with that other parent, and they're telling me this, and they don't want to go over that weekend, and you know, the other parent is on the other side crumbling and and saying, no, this is not true, you know, lies have been said about me, and you probably find yourself in a sticky situation trying to, you know, make it stop.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. I mean, I I've definitely been on Zoom with two parents, and one parent says um the child doesn't want to see the other parent. And I mean, it the the child it has a loyalty bind, right? Can they they that other parent who's so vested in um keeping the child from a parent, you know, they they put a lot out there in terms of the child has a lot of responsibility to that parent, which they shouldn't have. Um, that's not what is meant to be a child, right? Um, it's a kind of parentification in a sense, it's they're not taking care of their other parent, but they're emotionally tending to that other parent. Um and so, you know, I I try to do everything I can to have the parent who keeps saying that the child doesn't want to see the parent to have them really see, well, first of all, it's gonna happen. So let's just um realize that you're gonna be happier and they're gonna be happier and more it's this is gonna work out, but kind of like suspend disbelief because you know, as soon as we even consider um, oh, the child doesn't want to go to that other parent's house. I mean, it it it's always inherently um, it's always inherently coming from that other parent. There's very few children unless there's been actual, I I mean it it happens, I guess, but very few children don't deep down inside want to be with their other parent. It's just that they've been um taught that they they could possibly lose the love of the parent that's trying to keep them from seeing the other parent. And so it's a really scary situation to be in. But so, you know, how do we um have the the two, the parent and the child, get together in a way that is um less maybe less um less intimate in a sense? So the intimacy um well, one thing I would say is so intimacy is the negative or the positive. So just because people are fighting doesn't mean that they aren't connected anymore. They actually stay connected through that intimacy. So one thing is when the one parent is saying that the other parent can't have the child, we want to look at like, why are you still so vested in this other person? What is creating that sense of intimacy that you need their reaction, you need their pain, you need whatever it is. Um, but also, you know, what's going to be the level of intimacy in terms of the time with the child who says they don't want to go? You know, just want to make it so that it feels light, want to hold it lightly and um and make it all about not about you know having certain expectations of what is gonna happen and we have to do this and this, and we're gonna go to the mall and buy all these new toys and things like that. It's just gonna be about let's just hang out together, right? Just for just an hour at first, you know, just hang out together, just have some time together. Um, and so when we make it a big, gigantic deal, that also um I think puts more pressure on on children, and um, we want them to get back to what they inherently desire, which is to love and be loved by both their parents.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Now we were talking before this podcast that you have a course for people to sign up to, and I think today is the last day to sign up. Yes. And then go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:Well, so the inline co-parenting course, um, yes, it's the last day to sign up, um, then registration closes. And the reason is because I don't want it to be too large, I'm gonna actually be in it with students. So it's an online course, it's six weeks. Um, you it's also you have a lifetime um access to it, and so as your kids get older and go into different stages of development, you can come back and see how the co-parenting principles relate to your children at that time. But also, I'm still doing this work, I'm still like learning from people like you, Marianne, and I'm you know, so I'm gonna be updating the course, and so students will always have that information. But anyway, it's on Kajabi, it's an online course, um, and you can do it at your own pace. It has tons of extra resources, though. So um resources like you know, ways to write letters between between parties and samples and um form things for if you want to make changes and how to figure out vacation time. And so lots and lots of resources, also resources for deepening your relationship with your child at different levels. Um, and so oh, but yes, so the course is um six weeks. Today's the last day to register. The we added a payment plan because um, and I was honored to that people actually came to me and said it it can be really difficult right now to afford a course. So it's eighty-nine dollars a month for five months, and if you so you can join the course today for$89, but you just go to um and it's oh, so the enlightened co-printing course also has a private Facebook group, too. So um, you know, we'll be interacting, but I'll actually be in the course classroom. So as you go through things, you can ask me questions, you can ask how things apply to a particular child in your family, or sometimes there are different issues, there could be developmental disabilities, whatever there is, I'm there and um want to share it. So it's um course the word course dot enlightenco parenting dot com to register for the course. And if uh we don't make it happen this time, um, we'll have a list and make sure to get in touch next time. Um, but you can also email me, text me. Um happy to connect in any way and help whenever way I can.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's great. I mean, I'd like to have you back on the show, and uh, you're gonna be running that that course.enlightenedparenting.com again. You'll probably be running them throughout the whole year.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so we'll do it um another time this year, so in the summertime. So maybe I can come on again and talk about it like while we have more time because I know we won't necessarily be able to run to their computer and um sign up for a course. But if you want to, it's not too late. Um, but yes, we'll do it again, and you can still be um you can still sign up for my mailing list where I send out like all the latest psychology on these issues. Um, I love to stay in touch so even on the when I send you an email uh newsletter, you can respond to me. Some people ask me questions, and yeah, I would love to have to meet meet you and um have a connection.
SPEAKER_00:That's great. That's great. Okay, well, I won't keep you all afternoon or evening. I'm honored that you spoke with me. Thank you so much. You've been an excellent guest, and I will have you back on. Slam the gavels of podcast to help the public understand what really goes on in the family courtrooms that in turn perpetuate parental alienation. I'm your host, Marianne Petrie, author of Dismantling Family Court Corruption, Why Taking the Kids Was Not Enough, and Cry Out for Justice, Poems of Truth. And we will have you, Dr. Jodi, back on again. And thank you for coming on. Thank you so much, Mary.