Slam the Gavel
Slam the Gavel
Philip Marcus, Judge (retired) of the Jerusalem Family Court Jurist discusses Family Court, ways Israel handles Parental Alienation Cases and disciplinary actions taken by the court
Philip Marcus, Judge (retired) of the Jerusalem Family Court Jurist, is a Consultant on Family Courts, Family Law and Procedure Researcher Author and Lecturer on Child Law, Elder Law and Professional Ethics and Jurisprudence.
Retired Judge, Philip Marcus first became a judge in 1995 and discussed the Israeli Family Court System handling Parental Alienation cases. His main focus today was to discuss Prevention, such as education in high schools regarding relationships, communication and resolving problems so young people can recognize when a relationship is not healthy. Also, identifying early intervention and how to identify the signs of Parental Alienation.
Philip Marcus mentioned the sites: In Between and Two Wishes. Founder of Two Wishes, an international organization where building healthier families and reimagining family breakdown, for the sake of children
To Contact Philip Marcus: www.philip-marcus.com
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Good evening and welcome to Slam the Gavel, the show that tells it all regarding family court and CPS issues. I'm your host, Mary Ann Petri, and I would like to honor alienated parents next month on International Parental Alienation Awareness Day. Epiphany Awaits is offering a faith-based retreat for alienated parents with both in-person and a Zoom option on April 23rd through the 25th, 2021, at the Resolution Center in Jacksonville, Florida. Only$100 for a weekend of support for the journey with speakers including Dr. Mark Roseman and other professionals focused on guidance, friendship, and compassion. After March 15th,$125 registration fee. Scholarships are available. An email request for application and registration form to epiphaniesawate at gmail.com. That's E-P-I-P-H-A-N-I-E-S A-W-A-I-T at gmail.com. And right now I have an excellent guest on. He's a retired judge from the Jerusalem Family Court. His name is Philip Marcus, and I would like to welcome you to Slam the Gavel.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for inviting me. And uh I hope we'll have an interesting discussion. I'm sure we will.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes. And how are things going and um over in Israel right now?
SPEAKER_01:We're in pretty good shape. Um the restrictions which have been in force more or less for a year are now gradually being uh relaxed because, as you probably know, Israel has the highest proportion of the population inoculated of any other country in the world. Uh, out of a population of seven or eight million, I think about five million people have already been inoculated. And that includes practically everybody over the age of uh 18, and and they're now talking about inoculating children, they're waiting for tests. So, from that point of view, we're doing pretty good. We are, however, in the middle of our fourth election season uh over the last two years. Uh the elections are next uh Tuesday, um, uh and so there are problems uh associated with being in an election mode, but uh we are uh resilient.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely. And I just want to let everyone know, our audience know that you are um retired of the Jerusalem Family Court, and you're a consultant on family courts, family law and procedure researcher, you're an author and lecturer on child law, elder law, professional ethics, and jurisprudence. And you also have a recent article, it's called Innovative Programs in Israel for prevention and responding to parental alienation education, early identification, and timely effective intervention in the family court review, volume 58, issue 2, April 2020. And also the Israel Family Court, Therapeutic Jurisprudence and Jurisprudential Therapy from the start in the International Journal of Law and Psychiatry, Volume 63, and this was in the year 2019, page 68 through 75. So you have a lot of information to discuss and to educate us all on. And how did you get involved in? Well, how long have you been a judge?
SPEAKER_01:So I uh my history is as follows. I was born and educated in England, as anybody with uh half an ear probably realizes from my accent. I qualified as a lawyer uh in England, um, and with my wife and then three small children, we moved to Israel in 1978. I re-qualified as an advocate at the Israeli bar, and a few years later, in 1995, I was appointed to the family court. Um, and I sat in court for over 17 years. In 2012, I took early retirement because I realized that I wanted to engage in research and writing, um, and I was able to retire on a uh a satisfactory pension. So that's what I've been doing for the last nine years. Um over the last three or four years, I've been concentrating on two main areas. One is parental alienation, particularly from the angle of prevention, uh, as we will discuss, and when you can't prevent it, then how to identify the signs as early as possible and get the parents and the child into therapy. And if you don't manage to do that, then make sure that the responses, both in the courts and by the people who are giving uh assistance, uh therapy, and so on, are able to do so uh very quickly in order to prevent the deterioration of the situation. So that's an area which I dealt with as a lawyer, I dealt with it in the family court, and I realized that there is much room for improvement. Uh, the other area, as you said, is family courts and family law. Uh, and in my uh attendance at conferences around the world and my reading, it appears that in many places the family courts are not dealing adequately with children who are caught in the in between disputes between the parents. Uh, and therefore, on the basis of the Israeli family court system, which uh was set up under a law in 1995, um uh which seems to be working fairly satisfactorily. Um I uh present uh my ideas as to how courts in different jurisdictions may be able to handle things better uh when these cases come to court. Uh so we can talk a bit about that uh you know if there's time, um and and uh the programs that I'm uh uh presenting in different countries uh and at different conferences.
SPEAKER_00:When you um were a judge and you would see these cases come through, what did what were your thoughts? Like can you I mean I'm sure it's hard to tell if a parent is lying. I mean, I I wouldn't know what to do if I was a judge and listening to some of these cases, I I I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:So so so so you're you're right. Even judges are not very good at uh discerning when people are actually lying. Uh and what complicates the situation in cases where uh one parent has alienated the child against the other parent is that in many cases uh the alienating parent has a personality disorder, uh narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder. And people with these disorders can be highly intelligent and highly um efficient at presenting a picture which is simply not true. And therefore, the the difficulty uh for the court is how to identify these cases. Um I learned on the job uh when I was appointed a judge in 1995, um, although Gardner had published his uh his work and uh uh several years earlier, there was comparatively little literature on the subject. And it was only in the course of my sitting as a judge and seeing these cases I realized that there is a phenomenon that needs to be uh properly analyzed. Um but one of the uh techniques I developed was to uh try to winkle out uh the reason why the child is not seeing the parent at an early stage and to find out if the reason given was satisfactory or not. Um and the other was all kinds of external clues uh that the litigant before me uh may have a personality disorder. Uh for example, um a litigant who changes the lawyer uh three or four or five times over the course of a few months, that is somebody who is not prepared to accept that something that anybody else says is true or accurate or proper advice. So that that's an a flag for a personality disordered uh litigant. Um uh another is if they represent themselves, then they write their entire life history every time they write anything to the court. Uh that's also a uh a flag, an indicator. Um, but the Israeli system uh has developed and is well developed now uh to handle uh you know as quickly as possible with these cases, to the extent that the president of our Supreme Court in October 2020 issued a practice direction which was not restricted to parental alienation. But the practice direction says that in any case where child abuse or neglect or interference with contact is alleged, there must be a first hearing in the presence of the parties within 14 days of the application being presented to the court. That procedure was based on a pilot project by one of my colleagues in the Tel Aviv family court who uh the the uh judge in charge of that court said that all cases where there's an allegation of parental innovation should be referred to a specific judge who's highly experienced. And this judge, Eres Chani, his name, uh developed a system whereby he would ask two questions at the outset. He would say, Is little Johnny or little Mary seeing daddy or mommy? Uh and if the answer was no, then he would ask the parent with whom that child lived, why not? And on the basis of that response, uh, given his experience in the field, he would be able to say, look, this looks to me on the face of it, as uh as if it's a case where the the uh uh the parent who is not seeing the child has been severely abusive to the child or to the other parent. And this needs investigating. Um, but if there was not that allegation, uh, or if it was alleged and there was absolutely nothing to support it, then at that initial stage he would say, Look, um I'm not satisfied that there is a good reason why little Johnny or little Mary is not seeing daddy or mommy, and therefore he would appoint uh uh an attorney for the child, uh a guardian ad lightem, and he would also refer the parents and the child to two things. One is uh specified contact, which at the first stage could be electronic contact by video, zoom, Skype, or something like that, or physical contact. Uh, and he would also order that the parents take part in therapy uh to rearrange or for to learn again about co-parenting and also therapy for the child. And these orders would be backed uh by uh the availability of a guardian adlatum for the child, uh, who would be paid by the state, it's part of our legal aid system, uh, and a cadre of experienced therapists who were able to undertake um reunification work and also therapy and re-education and so on. Uh, and uh this was backed also by specific orders giving time limits so that a parent who was wasting time and was not complying uh would be faced with sanctions. Um and uh also asking the parties and the experts for a report within two weeks or three weeks or four weeks. And uh we have in Israel what's called one family, one judge, so that once a judge is hearing a case, everything would go back to the same judge, so he would have uh uh a supervisory role over everything that's going on. The other thing that uh was instituted was very strict sanctions for a non-compliant parent, which could include um uh a payment that had to be made to the other the other parent if a visit did not take place, a payment to the other parent and to the expert if uh the uh parent and the child did not show up, um, and uh then an ascending level of uh payments or uh removal of child support, uh up to and including imprisonment for contempt of court. Um I remember a case I dealt with uh obviously well before this scheme was started in Tel Aviv, where after several months of the mother um not complying with uh orders for uh contact between the father and the child, um I said, Look, you are clearly non-compliant. I'm not satisfied that any of the reasons that the child is not seeing uh the father are satisfactory. And therefore, if you do not bring little Johnny to see Daddy on Friday, then you will show up in my courtroom on Sunday morning and bring a toothbrush because I'm going to send you to prison for three days. Only three days, and in that time little the the the child would be with the father. Which would you prefer? And the the threat of that sanction was enough to stop the mother uh messing around. Uh and that case had a uh happy ending as far as I'm concerned. One of the frustrations as a judge is that you never know what happens afterwards. You sign off on the judgment and that's it. But uh about eight years later, I was at a wedding in Jerusalem, and a gentleman came up to me and said, Judge Marcus, and I said yes, and he said, Do you remember me? And I said, Well, it's rather difficult. I dealt with thousands of litigants. He said, My name is so-and-so, and I'm still seeing my son. This was the father in that case, uh, and it appears that uh although the mother had tried to manipulate the system, the threat of imprisonment was enough to make her straighten things out, and the child is was still seeing the father. So, so um that is a a sort of comprehensive system. Uh, the the family courts uh have an in-house social services unit, so there are social workers available to consult with the uh parties. Uh, we have a sophisticated system for hearing the voice of the child using social workers in the court social services unit, and they are specially trained to understand the way a child is speaking, and uh they also are experienced in spotting a child who has been programmed what to say, and um that they are not committed just to bringing what the child says. Uh, the the procedure involves a confidential report to the judge, um, but if the child wants to see the judge, and the child often does, uh then I would sit with the child and with a social worker present, and I would um you know get my own feel for what the child was saying. Uh I have to emphasize here that the child has a voice but not a choice. Um the the social workers and the judges and and the um psychologists who interview children are very careful uh to ask open questions and to uh avoid anything which might give the child the impression that he is um you know he has to decide, he has to vote in favor of dad or in favor of mom, because that puts colossal pressure on the child and causes uh untold damage. All this, of course, we've learned pretty much on the job. Um and and uh we're continuously reviewing and trying to improve the system.
SPEAKER_00:Do you, as judges, often take children and sequester them and and ask questions yourself?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that that's what I'm talking about. That that uh after the child has been to the social services unit, uh and if uh the social worker uh feels that it might be appropriate, then the social worker will ask the child whether you want to see the judge. And in about 50% of cases, the child will say yes. Um and uh in that case, uh I would uh see children in my uh chambers um with a social worker from the core social services unit present. Um uh and uh I uh developed together with other judges uh a procedure um which would involve uh asking a few introductory questions, um you know, like, you know, uh, how are you? and uh where do you go to school, what do you like uh studying at school, uh, what sports do you do? What sports um uh teams do you uh support? And I would all make sure that I was up to date with what the uh Beitar Jerusalem soccer team and the Hopo L Jerusalem basketball team uh had done the previous week. Um I would ask them about hobbies, I'd ask them about uh pets and so on. In order to establish some kind of rapport, some children came extremely worried and concerned. I remember one child who froze, and when I asked him what happened, he said, Are you going to send me to prison? Because he thought that all judges do all day is send people to prison. Um I was able to reassure him. Um and then I would ask general questions, you know, um, how's it like at mom's house? How's it like at dad's house? Um and that would often elicit um a very clear statement uh of what the child was feeling, or um, and this we've learned, of course, from the psychologists and uh who've been involved, what are the signs of a child who's been programmed? So uh if a child paints one parent as completely white and the other completely black, and if the black painting extends to the grandparents and the grandparents' pet dog, uh then the judge you know will see in in a very clear way that this is a child who has been programmed and would be able to take the appropriate steps. Um, but uh it doesn't always work, it's not always 100%. Uh and uh that that's why there are various levels until the stage when the child actually comes before the judge and uh and sits with the judge. I have to tell you that one of my colleagues had a pet bird in her chambers so that she could start a discussion about pets, but the cleaners in the courthouse did not like this bird at all. I don't know if you've ever had a parakeet, uh, but they tend to spread seed all over the place, and uh the bird didn't last very long. So, uh as I say, I developed uh I developed uh you know uh different techniques for this bridging conversation at the beginning.
SPEAKER_00:I know you said that um your social worker there can tell when the child is being programmed and coached. And what if the coaching just doesn't stop? And then they the child talks to you, and what do you think of that?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, so so so what the child says is is uh very important, but it's less important than the way in which the child says it. Uh, and often uh I was able to learn more about the case from the child's demeanor uh than from all the things which the parents and their lawyers had presented me with, uh, and even uh more than uh what I saw in an expert uh witnesses report, simply by observing how the child uh acts. Um and there is no doubt there are cases in which these cases uh in which uh there is really nothing the court can do. And the reason for that is that they come to court too late. Uh I remember that uh I remember one boy, uh he came with his three brothers. Mom and dad had split up, uh, and uh the three older boys were perfectly happy to go to mom for weekends, and this one was not. And um uh he was about eight years old when the parents split up. That is, it turns out the age, the ages of eight to thirteen when the parents split up is a very, very sensitive age, more than earlier or later in the child's life. Um and uh I was convinced that the father had not, in fact, influenced the child. Uh the proof is that her three older brothers, his three older brothers were seeing the mom. But this was a child who had um in a an attempt to resolve the loyalty split, had simply aligned himself with the father and rejected the mother. And although I saw this boy with his brothers and on his own, and social workers and psychologists had seen, we were simply unable to shift uh the issue. Uh, and and that those are the the cases where if they'd come to court earlier, or and this goes back to uh the the other area I'm talking about, and that is uh you know prevention and then early intervention before they get to court, um, if that had been possible in that case, then it's reasonable to assume the case might not have come to court at all, or uh it would have been possible to uh you know uh persuade this this this lad to to see his mother. Um so so the the the prevention and the early identification uh are highly important. Uh and these are the programs that I've been writing about uh and and lecturing about in in different countries and at different conferences for the last four or five years.
SPEAKER_00:And you've been to other other countries, and um as far as um giving practical help, um do you have any organizations in Israel that you are involved in?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's an organization called In Between. Uh the website is Balev B-A-L-E-V.org. This is an organization which is devoted to children and their families who are undergoing divorce. And they uh I'm a member of the uh advisory board there. Um we also have a working group on preventing, or it's called uh on on contact preservation and alienation prevention. And we're also uh in a small group drawing up a guide for parents who decide to separate, all aimed at reducing to a minimum the stress on children. Um, so for example, uh this organization in between, um they have lectures to school staff, uh to uh school counselors, I also take part in those lectures about the phenomenon, what happens to a child when the parents are getting divorced. They've set up a system with big brothers so that uh in schools, if a teacher sees that a child appears to be in difficulties because of parents splitting up, then they assign a big brother an older student or a student of social work. Uh, and a variety of different programs also advising parents and and uh referring them to mediation. And this is uh the earliest possible stage. There's an international organization which got started just a few months ago. It's called Two Wishes, or the Two Wishes Foundation. Uh and uh I was involved in founding that, and this is a broad international organization. Uh, it's called Two Wishes because a child whose parents split up, you know, everyone's entitled to two to three wishes. The first wish is that mom and dad will get back together again, but that rarely happens. The other two wishes are that uh I will get through this safely and that other children will get through this safely. So uh by an international campaign of publicity, pointing out the necessity for uh parents who are splitting up to act jointly in the interests of the child. And uh as we say, uh, what often happens is they hate each other more than they love their child. Uh, the idea is to reframe uh the whole way we look at separation and divorce and parenting in such a way that parents will put their children in the forefront and will see the uh they will be aware of the damage that can be done to children if the separation and divorce are not done in a competent way. Um this involves, of course, making available uh services, including couple counseling and parenting counseling and all kinds of other services that parents can go to. But there is a stage before that, and that is making the whole population, parents, uh, youngsters, professionals aware of the damage that can be done to children if separation and divorce are not done in a way which is uh child aware. So we're really talking about a long-term plan to reframe the way in which we look at uh couple relationships, at parenting relationships, um, and with a blue-ribbon group of experts in many set several different fields all aimed at that. Uh there are other organizations, uh, you're aware of the parental alienation study group, which uh over the last 20 years or so has done excellent work in publicity, in putting together uh academics and professionals and alienated parents and learning about the situation, what happens, what you can do about it. I participated in a few of their conferences. Um but but uh as I say, uh it's not only about parental alienation when it has already happened. The prevention and the early identification are absolutely crucial. Prevention has has different forms. Uh, one of the things I would like to be working on is that uh youngsters in high school, when they're taught about relationship education, uh, they should be taught about how to select a partner with whom you are able, going to be able to have an ongoing lifetime relationship and bring up children together. That involves two main issues. One is communication, uh, and the other issue is how you resolve issues, how you resolve problems, uh, difficulties, disputes. Um and and there is research showing that uh if uh youngsters or couples who are contemplating marriage can go through a short uh course uh and do work together, uh sometimes they can spot that the person they thought was the right one is not the right one. It's no criticism of that person. Each individual has his own uh complex uh of uh personality and the way to do things. But you know, the the the you start at the very beginning. If they don't get married because they're unsuitable, then they're not gonna get divorced because they're unsuitable, and they're not gonna have children who are gonna be damaged by by this. So that's one of the one of the stages in prevention. Um another stage is to make the public aware of the damage that can be caused if parental separation is not done in an adequate fashion. One of the methods that uh we are finding to be most effective is to conduct interviews with adults who, as children, were uh went through horrible parental separations and were alienated. These interviews, if they're properly done, can be highly effective in presenting the damage that can be done to a child by parents who are simply unaware of what their responsibilities are to their children. Um there are other prevention schemes. Obviously, each one needs to be adapted to the population and the culture of the places that we're dealing with, uh, but that's the primary prevention. We've just seen a fantastic example of primary prevention with COVID-19. Putting on a mask is primary prevention. It's all very well to invest your money in trying to uh cure these people. And then, of course, the vaccination is primary prevention. You stop the thing before it starts. Uh, and and um that that that's uh where, in my view, uh governments and non-governmental organizations should be investing uh their time and their money because uh savings, tremendous savings down the line, if you manage to scotch the thing. Uh I'm uh together with a uh economics professor and a specialist in health economics, uh I have a um a proposal for research which will show how much money would be saved in all kinds of systems uh if there was uh prevention and early intervention uh when parents break up and the kids start to suffer. Um I can give details of that to anyone who's interested. Uh just let me give you my email address uh now. I'll give it again at the end. It's Philip Marcus Jurist. That's P H I L I P M A R C U S J U R I S T at Gmail.com. Uh That's my address. Uh I'll give you also my website. It's uh Philip Marcus.com. That's P-H I L I Phen M A R C U S dot com. And you can see there my some of my articles and the programs that I'm promoting and all that. The second stage is, as I say, um early identification. And here it's important to work with uh schools, with medical staff, with family doctors, pediatricians, uh, anybody who uh professionally comes in contact with children and their parents. Um and uh just just let me give you an example of what goes on in schools. Um the teacher, the homeroom teacher, or the sport teacher, or the teacher who's supervising the kids when they're on their break may see a change in the way a child is behaving. A child who was previously um friendly uh stops being friendly, a child who was a good kid is teaming up with the bad kids in the class, a child who was always uh well turned out starts uh to be your pardon the expression, rumpled and smelly. Um a child who always did the homework on time stops doing the homework. Or the opposite. A child who was a normal, playful, enjoyable kid now is concentrating tremendously on schoolwork. It's the change that needs to be spotted. And um the the the program I am I am proposing involves everybody in in the school. Uh uh I heard a lecture by the principal of a school in uh I think Florida who said that the crossing guard, the gentleman who escorts the kids off the school bus into the gate and becomes friendly with the kids, will see a change in demeanor. Or when the kids being are being picked up, if it's mom's turn to pick up uh little Johnny or little Mary, and dad comes along uh without any reason and starts screaming at mommy that she is uh you know inadequate and she's violent and she's addicted and she's got a boyfriend, and the child hears this, and the and the child's uh friends and the friends' parents hear this. That's something that needs to be reported to the school counselor. Uh and uh putting together all these signs, uh the school counselor should be able to put together a picture of a child who may be uh doing all these things because mom and dad are fighting. And then the school counselor's job is to call in the parents and say, look, little Johnny or little Mary are you know behaving strangely. Might it be something to do with what's going on at home? And then refer them to places where they can get help. Um, it may be that there are all kinds of other different reasons which are not connected with the parents, but uh in my estimation, it's the responsibility of the school not only to educate the children but also to act, as we say, in loco parentis when the child is in the school, then the parent, the school authorities have to take uh some kind of responsibility for what's happening with the child. If you talk about uh family doctors and pediatricians, um I have a good friend um who's a pediatrician, and he said um he had a child who was brought by the mother on a Thursday once every two weeks, and the mother said the kid wasn't feeling well. The kid looked all right, but uh he would give a note saying little Johnny isn't feeling well until he realized that this was the Thursday before the Friday on which little Johnny was supposed to be with Daddy. And uh an intelligent and well-informed pediatrician will be able to spot that, or uh, supposing there's a child with special needs, and only one of the parents is coming to the speech therapist or or uh you know the doctor or whoever it is, and and uh the mother says something, the mother brings the child, and the therapist says, Well, where's where's dad? Oh, dad's too busy, dad's working, dad's out of town. Uh, and uh then it transpires that the mother is not giving information to the father. I mean, this is a case where there is a strong indication that there may be alienation going on or it may develop, and then the doctor should call in both parents and insist they both show up and try and probe what's going on and refer them for help. So those are just uh some of the ideas for early identification and intervention. And if you can divert these cases by primary prevention or early identification and referral, you divert them from the court system because the court system is, in the view of many people, totally the wrong place to resolve problems involving children. Uh, and and that uh you know, my dream is that if we can get these uh primary prevention and early intervention programs, uh the courts will be able to deal with other things, they won't have to deal with these kids. Um and and uh, you know, some of my family court judges will say we'll be redundant. And I said, Well, it's not gonna happen that quickly. Um, it's gonna take years to change the system. I can just give an example. Uh, the idea of having a unified family court with specialist judges in Israel uh was proposed in the early 80s. Uh a the a uh a top uh commission was set up, which reported in 1986. It took them until 1995 to change the law to set up the family courts. So, I mean, that is because of all kinds of reasons. Each country has its own reasons. I read today a beautiful thing saying that the only person who really uh welcomes a change is the toddler with a dirty diaper. Everybody else is resistant to change because we've always done it this way, and therefore it must be okay. And so there is a need for uh what is now called disruptive thinking and a new way of looking at things. Um, and one of the things I also um emphasize is that it has to be multidisciplinary. Um, the the days in which psychologists work in their own side, their own professional silo, the social workers are in their silo, and the lawyers are in their silo, the judges are in their silo, they don't talk to each other uh about what's going on, that has to end. That was the reason why, in the 1995 law in Israel, the social services unit is included as an integral part of the court. These are highly experienced social workers, they have access to a psychologist and a psychiatrist. They're usually located in the court building. The judges and the social workers sit down once every few months to discuss a particular issue or particular type of case. Uh, so they understand the working methods and the language and the uh the approaches so that they can synchronize them as far as possible. Uh and uh by having multidisciplinary conferences like Preadline Nation Study Group does, by having organizations like Two Wishes and like In Between, which have um multidisciplinary uh groups, uh this is something which is also, in my view, uh
SPEAKER_00:Have you noticed, I know you've been retired, but have you noticed any issues where pickups and drop-offs have gone badly in Israel?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, there's always that potential. Uh going badly can mean uh all kinds of things. Uh I've already uh spoken about the school gates where uh you know mommy's uh picking up daddy's picking up the kid and mommy screams at him, you didn't pay the child support this month, you louse, you lowlife. Um that that's one kind of thing that can go wrong. Another, of course, is is where the uh pickup and the drop-off are not uh in the presence of other people. And that can give rise to two uh completely different but complementary phenomena. One is an actual act of abuse, and the other is an allegation of abuse, and if there's no one else present, then uh it's he said, she said, and that will involve litigation. So that um we have a sophisticated system of supervised visitation. That's in the extreme cases where the child uh has been exposed to violence or abuse either between the parents or between the child and the parent, but nevertheless, it's not at a level which would prohibit any kind of contact. Unfortunately, uh there are some places in which safeguarding, as it's called, is the highest priority, and therefore it's enough for one parent to allege that the other parent has been violent, to stop all kinds of contact until there's been a fact-finding hearing, which may be six or nine or twelve months down the line, uh, and by that time the child has completely lost contact and faith in the other parent and has been totally exposed to the alienating parent, so that even if the allegation is found to be completely false, the the alienation has taken place. That goes, of course, to the issue of early identification and it also goes to the issue of efficient court processes. Uh, so that uh the these um these contact centers are very and a very important uh thing to have around. Um but even where there's no need for a contact center, um or or then you you can still set up that the handovers at least happen in the presence of somebody who's acceptable to both uh parents. It can be uh obviously at the gates of the school, uh, it can be uh um uh at the place of one of the relatives who is acceptable to both uh parents, um, so as to avoid that kind of nonsense. Um and and uh one of the first directives that came out uh in Israel uh at the time of the first lockdown was that although people were prohibited from moving, driving from one place to another, one of the exceptions was a parent who is bringing a child or collecting a child from the other parent. Um that was done as together with all the other regulations in one piece, whereas in other countries it was up to the family court to give directions or to the governor or to the mayor or somebody to give these directions, and by the nature of things, it it was less uh efficient, and that caused a whole bunch of different disruptions in COVID-19. Um so uh and then there are, of course, different points of view as to how frequent visitation ought to take place. Uh, the rule I used was the younger the child is, frequent short visits are far more effective than long infrequent contact. Um, but that depends on the individual child, it depends on the parents, it depends on the circumstances, and and having a social services unit in the court uh will enable the court to have professional information as to what is the best uh contact arrangement for the specific child with the specific parents. Uh, and of course, uh take into account all the logistics, how far the parents are living one from another, uh and all that has to be fact, all that has to be factored in.
SPEAKER_00:When um you know, in these courtrooms, when you see a parent that is um representing themselves, you know, perhaps they've run out of money, that they can't afford an attorney, have you seen um some good uh pro se litigants that know what they're doing and know the laws?
SPEAKER_01:Uh the answer to that is probably no, but I have to point out that in Israel the legal aid system is very well developed, so that even in Jerusalem, which has uh uh you know has some rich people, but quite a lot of people who are you know working for the minimum wage or who are unemployed, um they can get a lawyer paid for by the state. Uh, and the legal aid organization has in-house lawyers, but also will uh appoint lawyers who are in private practice who are prepared to work for um, you know, a reasonable uh fee. Uh, I, as a lawyer, did a lot of legal aid work, um, and that's how I got experience uh appearing in court and preparing cases. So that the pro se litigans are quite rare in Israel because of the existence of legal aid. Um one of the most difficult things, and I there were cases where a parent uh represented him or herself, maybe because they couldn't afford a top-flight lawyer, but they were their income was above the limit for legal aid. Um even then I would strongly advise them to find a lawyer. But the difficulty a judge has when one party is represented and the other is not is colossal. First of all, an unrepresented litigant, um the law is complicated, it's complex. There are all kinds of issues, as well as the specific statute dealing with parenting issues. There are all kinds of rules of procedure and rules of evidence. And a judge facing a case with uh both parties unrepresented, or even worse, when one party is unrepresented, is faced with a colossal job of explaining the things that lawyers go to law school for a couple of years and then they have to be in practice for a certain amount of time. Try and explain that to somebody who has no legal background takes up a huge amount of time. And uh if one party is represented and the other isn't, then there's a risk that the judge will find himself unwittingly siding with the unrepresented litigant without knowing the facts necessary to present that unrepresented litigant's case. Um, so that means I'm strongly in favor of legal aid. There is a particularly difficult problem in England and Wales, where uh a few years ago they decided to cut back on legal aid, and they said uh in family cases there will be no legal aid except for a party who alleges violence. But the respondent to an application like that is not entitled to legal aid. So this gave a huge incentive to people to make allegations of violence so that they would get a lawyer who would then be able to handle the case, who would be familiar with the court and the court procedures and the judges, and the innocent uh person against whom violence is alleged is not only furious and not only sad and depressed, but also is facing a well-oiled machine. Um and uh if you add to that that in many cases uh in England and Wales and in many other countries, judges are appointed to the family court or try family cases without any prior experience in family cases, without any knowledge in the field, and they're appointed just for a year or two, or to do an occasional case, uh, that also uh adds to the problems uh of an unrepresented litigant, but it also adds to the problems of everybody else. Um as I say in Israel, in order to be appointed a judge of the family court, you have to have proven knowledge and experience in the field as a lawyer. Sorry about that. That's okay. I'll silence it. Um, and and there are in addition, uh, there are seminars, annual seminars for all family judges, which they are required to attend, so that they are constantly uh learning uh about family uh issues in the court uh as um uh that that that uh that leads to a a uh uh a build-up of knowledge. And uh you're only appointed to the family court if you want to sit in the family court. Uh and you can expect to sit in family court maybe for 10 years uh before you're promoted or moved uh to a different court, which means that you have a cadre of experienced judges who are dealing with these cases, uh, and and uh that also uh adds to the efficiency of the system and tries to cut down the suffering of children who get involved in this machine.
SPEAKER_00:Um well I don't want to tie up your whole evening. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Because I don't want exhaust you're probably tired.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's what no, I'm I'm I'm so far I'm doing fine.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Uh but but you know, I I just want to to emphasize that that um that there there are ways in which life for children whose parents are separating uh can be made better. Uh but it it involves uh a multidisciplinary effort. It involves people who are passionate uh about making things better. Uh, there are all kinds of uh forces uh which would want to stand against that. Uh it may be civil servants who uh don't want to uh change because they don't like it. Uh it may be lawyers who have an interest, some lawyers, a few lawyers who have an interest in fomenting uh disputes uh and not in resolving them. Um it may be judges who are conservative in their approach or who uh don't uh you know don't or regard family cases as just another kind of case that comes before the court and are unaware of the very special and life-changing uh effects that a badly run family case can cause for the parents and for the children. Um so it requires uh, as I say, um passionate people who are prepared to learn and study and get involved and and to propose change. Um and uh you know that's where uh I that's where I find myself. Um and and uh you know that's why I'd be happy to help anybody who wants to change systems. Uh I am not giving advice to individual cases, that's not what I do. I deliberately, after retiring, did not return to the Bar Association. Um and anyone who rings me up for advice, the advice I usually give is get a decent lawyer who is experienced and knows about what's going on. Um but uh I am interested in helping organizations, uh, NGOs, government organizations, court systems, um, on the basis of my uh knowledge and experience in making things better. So I'll give you my email address again. Uh it's philippmarcus jurist at gmail.com. The website is www.philiphy-marcus.com. Um and I'd be happy to hear from anyone who's interested in learning more. Or I can I can tell you that uh I recently gave a webinar for an Eastern European country about parental alienation. It was very well received, and the people in the Supreme Court there got wind of it, and they've been in touch with me. I'm at the moment finishing off preparing a course for senior civil servants uh for from a Western European country, uh, which we'll be doing online with one of our academic colleges here to increase their awareness about parental alienation, about prevention, about early intervention or early identification, about effective intervention. Um I spoken at a number of online uh conferences uh during the COVID year in various places, and I'm scheduled to do so as well. Uh, another couple of weeks I'm giving a lecture to uh teachers and counselors in one of our schools here in Jerusalem about what happens to a child whose parents are getting separated and divorced from a legal point of view, and also talking about what teachers and uh school counselors and principals can do um in the way of uh early identification. Uh, those are the things that I'm doing at the moment. So I'll be happy to uh speak to anyone who's interested in that kind of uh help.
SPEAKER_00:That's excellent. And I really appreciate your time.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's been a pleasure speaking to you, and uh I I have uh great admiration for your work in getting the word out using your skills. Uh you know, that's a very important element in the whole program of uh making sure that as few as possible kids uh get damaged in the uh in the process of parental separation.
SPEAKER_00:Most definitely, most definitely. Well, thank you. Um Slam the Gavel's a podcast to help the public understand what really goes on in the family courtrooms that in turn perpetuate parental alienation. I am your host, Marianne Petri, author of Dismantling Family Court Corruption, Why Teeing the Kids Was Not Enough, and Cry Out for Justice, Poems of Truth, and please join us again in the future for another exciting episode of Slam the Gavel. Thank you so much.