Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Doubles Special: Problems, Solutions, & the Future of the Pro Doubles Tour with Dan Kiernan

• Will Boucek • Episode 232

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In this special episode on the state of doubles and the professional doubles debate, I speak with ATP & WTA Coach, Dan Kiernan. Dan is the coach of Gaby Dabrowski, Michael Venus, and Nikola Mektic, and has been on the show several times before (below).

In this conversation, we examine the future of doubles from multiple perspectives and challenge current assumptions about the format's viability.

  • Reactions to the idea that "doubles specialists have no place in the future of tennis"
  • The doubles debate centers on "the WHO, not the WHAT" – personality and storytelling matter more than format
  • US Open's controversial changes to the mixed doubles format make commercial sense in the short-term but we must consider the long-term timeline as well
  • Doubles players face three options: accept diminished status, fight for change within the tour structure, or break free to create their own tour
  • Professional doubles needs to embrace vulnerability, personality-driven content, and innovative viewer experiences to thrive
  • The seven tennis governing bodies lack a cohesive vision for doubles, focusing instead on short-term commercial priorities
  • For it to survive, doubles specialists must take initiative in building their own brands and connecting authentically with fans
  • Innovations like free fan movement, court-side service, and more relaxed atmosphere could transform the doubles spectator experience and change in a way that singles is resistant to

This is an open invitation to everyone in tennis – players, coaches, tournament directors, and media – to continue this conversation and work together toward solutions that benefit doubles and the sport as a whole.

Previous Episodes with Dan Kiernan:

More from Dan:

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Speaker 1

You're about to hear my conversation with Dan Kiernan surrounding the doubles debate. So I chatted with Dan at Indian Wells a few weeks ago and we decided to have this conversation and publish it on my podcast, obviously as well as Dan's podcast, control the Controllables, and Dan is someone that I always love chatting with. I learn something every time I have a conversation with him. He's got a very thoughtful answer to any questions that I ask him and always has kind of a different perspective that really makes you think. If you're not familiar with Dan, I've had him on the podcast several times, which I'll link to in the show notes. He's an ATP and WTA coach. He works with Gabby Dabrowski and Aaron Routliff one of the best doubles teams on the WTA tour over the last several seasons, and he also coaches Nikola Mekdic and Michael Venus on the ATP side Nikola Mekdic and Michael Venus on the ATP side and this conversation was during Miami. Dan was down in Miami in his hotel room and I was back home in Fort Worth, texas, and again we talk about the doubles debate. So we tackled this from a lot of different angles. Both Dan and I believe that the best future for tennis does include doubles, and recently, I'm sure you've heard at this point, riley Opelka, andy Roddick, john Wertheim have basically made a case that doubles specialists should not exist. So we talk about that. We talk about the case for doubles specialists and we talk about why we believe that doubles should have a place in the future of our sport. We also discuss the problems facing doubles today on the tour, both from a marketing perspective as well as a product perspective. And then one thing that's important that I feel like a lot of people miss when they're having a conversation about this topic is the different timescales that we're talking about, so we discuss that as well. We also challenge doubles specialists a bit Current doubles players. They do need to take as much of this as they can into their own hands, and we talk about that and what they can do to try to help market and brand themselves as well.

Speaker 1

And, like I said, we try to tackle this from all different angles. So obviously Dan, being an ATP and WTA tour coach, shares his perspective. I share my perspective, being a strategy analyst for ATP and WTA doubles players as well as somebody on the media side of things. And then we talk about it from the player perspective. We talk about it from the tournament organizer perspective, from the broadcaster perspective, and if you can kind of look at it from all these different angles, it can give you a more full picture and we can come up with better solutions that really work for everybody, going forward in both the short term and the long term.

Speaker 1

But beyond all that, our goal with this conversation and really my goal in general with a lot of the doubles conversations I've been having recently is just to keep the conversation going. The more we can have discussions like this, the more we can come up with solutions and create positive change for doubles, which is positive change for tennis positive change for tennis. So, if you're a doubles fan, maybe this inspires you to engage a bit more on social media with the ATP or WTA accounts in terms of engaging with their doubles content and that gives them feedback that you want more of this. If you're a player, maybe this inspires you a bit to take some of that into your own hands. Maybe you create a group chat with some of your friends on tour and you'll start to create collaborations at each tournament and share those on social media to help build your own brand, which will, in turn, get more people and more eyeballs watching doubles.

Strategy Differences: Pro vs Club Doubles

Speaker 1

If you're a coach, maybe this inspires you to have more conversations like this and to try to get involved as much as you can. If you're a tournament director, maybe you're thinking about ways that you can make doubles profitable for your tournament. If you're in the media, maybe you start to cover the doubles tour. One thing I've talked about a lot in the past is when I am on a media credential at some of these tournaments I'm often the only person that ever requests any of the doubles players, which is very strange because I've only been doing this for five or so years. If you're a broadcaster, maybe this inspires you to improve the TV product for the doubles court and for some of the outside courts in general. That doesn't just apply to doubles, but again, I really hope that this keeps the conversation going so that we can move forward to potential solutions that work for doubles as well as singles and tennis as a whole. So, without further delay, enjoy this long one plus hour conversation on the doubles debate with Dan Kiernan.

Speaker 2

So Will a big welcome to Control the Controllables. How are you doing?

Speaker 1

I'm good and welcome to the Doubles Only Tennis Podcast Dan.

Speaker 2

Our first, or my first, collaboration. This is, you know, and actually I don't know if you know this, but this is our 250th episode on Control the Controllables, so we've saved a special one for that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, this is an important topic, so this is a good one for number 250.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. And I think, look, obviously we've spoke a lot over the last couple of years, will, and we have a very strong shared interest and passion on the sport of tennis, but obviously specifically doubles within that. And one thing I've never actually asked you is where did that start for you? Where did that passion come from? Where did that start for you? Where did that passion come from? I'm certainly very thankful for you and everything that you are doing for doubles, but, yeah, where did that begin?

Speaker 1

So I played tennis most of my life, played at a university in the States just a small Division III school and I took some time off after college and eventually ended up in Austin, Texas, and I didn't know anybody there. So I started playing some adult league doubles and I became just fascinated by the strategy and I started experimenting. This was without like a lot of I guess coaching or I didn't do a lot of research online in terms of double strategy. I was just honestly experimenting myself on the court and I didn't know a whole lot about it. Like in college, our coach actually played professionally. He was top 100 in doubles, but the school dropped from Division I to Division III and he didn't teach us a whole lot of strategy. We focused mostly on, I guess, singles and we played doubles, but we didn't learn a whole lot in terms of strategy and I started experimenting with it on the court, like taking away the middle more. I noticed everybody's covering the alley. I was trying to do the opposite and then I started Tennis Tribe in 2016. And I was just writing blog posts about double strategy and things that worked for me and people found it helpful around the state of Texas who are playing these USTA leagues and tournaments and then from there it kind of took off. In 2020, I started the podcast. I met Craig O'Shaughnessy, who lives in Austin, texas, who's very big on the analytics side of our sport. I learned a ton from him out to pro doubles players and teams offering those services, and have since worked with teams at the majors and the Olympics and different tournaments around the world. So now at this point, yeah, my passion for doubles is kind of just grown since 2016.

Speaker 1

In 2022 or 2021, indian Wells I noticed that the doubles courts were very crowded and I was like why isn't this on TV more? It's what most of us are playing. It didn't make sense to me. So I knew Gabby vaguely at the time and reached out to her and said what if we create these Watch More Doubles t-shirts? And she was like, yeah, somebody tried this in the past. It didn't go well, but I'm happy to help you. So Gabby helped me launch those in 2022 back at Indian Wells in March, and we launched them with 14 different WTA players. We have a photo of a lot of us wearing our Watch More Doubles shirts and since then I've continued to just try to push this Watch More Doubles campaign and make pro doubles more popular, because I just see so much potential there and that's what we're here to talk about.

Speaker 2

A couple of things. John, it's funny doing a podcast where we're on each other's podcast because I'm going straight to so many different questions that are coming to my head. So many different questions that are coming to my head because it's, I guess, one. One question that comes into my head is you talk about strategy. You talk about strategy on on the pro tour. How similar is that to strategy in the adult league in Austin, texas, or in Dallas? Is that? Do you think there is a big crossover? Do you think what's being taught at the high end of ATP WTA doubles? Do you think that is relevant to more club league doubles? And I guess the second part of that question what about the difference between ATP and WTA?

Speaker 1

I think the first question. I think the answer is yes. I think there's actually a lot more overlap than you'd expect. The way I've described it is like the big difference between the pro players and the club players when you're watching doubles is just the speed that everything happens. So the ball is traveling faster, they're running faster, they're moving their feet faster, the racket head speed's faster. But if you were to take a pro match and slow it down, a lot of the best strategies are going to be very similar to the club level, because it's all relative right. Like the club level serve might be 40 miles an hour, but that returner is not as good either. So for them to hit down the tram line is, you know, it's all relative right. So I think you can learn a lot by watching the pros and I I've kind of built my business around that Like a lot of my audience is learning a ton by watching pro doubles and watching my lessons, which are clips from pro double matches, right. So I think you can learn a lot there and I think that's something that the tours have not really taken advantage of a whole lot.

Speaker 1

And then the difference between ATP and WTA. I mean you might be better qualified to answer this than me, but I feel like WTA is a little bit more relatable for the club level player. I agree there's a little bit more kind of lobbying. There's more one up, one back, although you see that on the ATP side as well the returns are a little bit better relative to the serve. So I think that the WTA side's a little bit more relatable. They're also not quite playing as close to the net generally, and part of that's probably because the serves and returns have a different kind of strengths and weaknesses to it. So that's, I think, how I'd answer that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I would go with that. I think I say that all the time. Watch WTA doubles actually, if you want to get the real strategy, and you've alluded to it there. But for me it's exactly that. You know the serve isn't as dominant, so the return is of higher quality in general on the WTA. So the point starts from a different standpoint. Whereas a lot of the ATP doubles, the starting point is the serve hits the spot and the net player touches the ball because the returner can't keep it away from the net player, whereas on the WTA, the quality of return is better, whether that's lob, whether they're getting a bigger strike on the ball. And now we're in a position where the starting point of the point is with a ball, three Quite often service team in a defensive position or in a different position, which opens up a lot more tactics. Right, there's a lot more different ways to to to change the point, but that that's ultimately the big difference that I that I would see yeah, I think I agree.

Dan's Journey as a Doubles Coach

Speaker 1

I mean the serve and then, related to that, the overheads. Right, like if you hit a good lob on the wta tour, you've likely just flipped the point from defense to offense, whereas you had a good lob on the ATP tour. They can hit an overhead from anywhere on the court and they're still on offense, so I think that's that's a good, good way to phrase it. So talk a little bit about yourself and how you got started in doubles. You're coaching Gabby Dabrowski, michael Venus. Now. Talk a little bit about how you got started on the pro tour.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So, venus, now talk a little bit about, uh, how you got started on the, the pro tour, yeah, so I mean the big one for me. I get asked all the time actually. So I'll say you're a doubles coach, you're a doubles coach, um, and the first thing I would actually say about that is I think, as coaches, um, we coach people actually. You know, certainly that's that would be my, my take on what I do. You know, the people that I coach happen to play tennis and I've got a bit of knowledge in tennis and, as it currently stands, the players that I coach happen to play doubles within that. So it's certainly. I guess that's the starting point for any of us. We love pigeonholing people into different areas, right, and saying but I do believe if you can coach, you can almost coach anything in lots of ways, because 70% it's a bit of a random figure, but a high percentage of coaching is coaching people and having the skills to be able to connect and then obviously have the expertise in those kind of knowledgeable areas.

Speaker 2

So the doubles bit for me, I guess, as a player, I was always probably made more to be a coach than a player in some ways, and I remember that from quite early on we won the under-14 world championships La Petite Asse TARBS in France. On, you know, we won the. We won the under 14 world championships, um la petitas tabs in france, and I just felt so comfortable on court playing doubles. And I think I felt comfortable because I had maybe a natural coaching way about me, you know so, my, my success, junior tennis, was higher in doubles. Singles I did okay, um, same on the pro tour, you know. Singles I was whatever 650 in the world or so in singles, but um, doubles came a little bit more natural to me. Same in college tennis. You know, I became a captain quite early on in my days at lsu and and I just seemed to like to help people, probably more than myself actually, you know. So it was a very natural thing for me to do. And then I coached a lot of players, singles players, tennis players over the years. Obviously at those kind of lower ranks they're playing singles and doubles right. So I did all of that.

Speaker 2

But then I guess my, because quite often in anything in life you need an in, you know, and there's a lot of great tennis coaches out there that aren't working at the highest level purely because they maybe haven't had that opportunity yet, not that they're not capable of it and that was Lloyd Glasspool. So I mean Lloyd, lloyd, I coached from the age of 10. So I coached Lloyd pretty much all the way through junior career. Then, I know he was at University of Texas, but I was in touch with him the whole time there. And then literally the week he came out of college and had just won the NCAAs actually, he came over to Spain and I I coached Lloyd through his singles career, where he was playing doubles as well Not so well, I may add. I used to have a lot of frustrations with Lloyd that he just he didn't give his best efforts. You know he wasn't the best performer on the doubles court at that stage. And then when him and Harry started to put some wins together, that was when Lloyd spoke to me again and I actually went out to the ATP Tour Finals which would be what 22 maybe with Harry and Lloyd and then started working with Harry and Lloyd. So that was the starting point. From there, gabby Dabrowski asked me to work with her back in around about May 23. That obviously evolved into also now helping erin as well and that team, and then it's taken me now michael venus and nicola mektich as well.

Speaker 2

So, um, yeah, it's before you know it, you're kind of known as this doubles coach, but I, but doubles is also a big, big passion of mine. I, I love, I love that aspect. I I'm a team guy really and and I think you know, singles didn't always make sense to me unless I was playing for a team in college. It made sense to me singles because I had guys next to me and I had people supporting and and I think, yeah, but but I would, I would argue that% of people out there are more that way inclined. Actually, I think most of us are more team players than individuals and that's certainly been something that I would say from that aspect, more so than the tactical and the strategy side. I would say it's more the team piece and bringing people together. That was my initial attraction into doubles and then, probably as a player, I had more of a skill set. I like to be at the net. I, you know, I like to like to serve and volley. So covering half a court was maybe easier than covering a full court when you were a serve volleyer, you know. So I I think that was the starting point for me and and yeah, I guess here we are in 2025, will. It's like the ecosystem of doubles, obviously, certainly from a professional level.

Speaker 2

We've had a lot of comments that have been made, which I welcome in some ways. You know, sometimes you feel there's a little bit of ignorance, but I think there's no bad press right. You know, getting people out there and people having conversations. You know people are talking about the death of doubles and is this the start of the end? We've had the change, you know, with the mixed doubles at the US Open. We had big chats earlier last year where people were talking about the premier tour coming out and it was only going to be singles and you know, it feels like there's a little bit of momentum right now and I guess that's what we're trying to address a little bit today. So what do you see? Where do you see this all fitting right now? One from a professional level and secondly, within the ecosystem of the of the wider tennis industry.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's kind of a question I've been trying to answer since you know 2022, I guess when.

Current State of Professional Doubles

Speaker 1

I created those t-shirts with Gabby like I talked about earlier. Yeah, it's just never made sense to me that doubles isn't more popular than it is. So I guess the question is like where are we now and where where could it go and where do we think it's actually going to go? So right now I feel like doubles is an underserved market, I guess is one way to phrase it. Um, the tours have mostly neglected I think doubles is a fair word, maybe it's slightly harsh, but I don't think by much over the last several decades, and I think that that's one of the reasons that you're seeing it come to kind of the forefront right now. A lot of you know we've had Opelka kind of go off about it, then Roddick responded, then Wertheim responded, then it's on Tennis Channel and a lot of these people. You know I talked about my story earlier and I don't by any means have a traditional story into professional tennis or working with pro players or just the pro tours in general, and I think that gives me kind of a unique perspective on it where I'm not quite as blindfolded maybe as if you've been in it for 30 years and I think that a lot of people who have been in it for so long, maybe don't have the vision to see where doubles could go, and maybe that makes me naive, I don't know. I'm looking for reasons that I'm wrong, but I haven't found any that makes sense to me that really have changed my mind so far.

Speaker 1

But I feel like a lot of the people you talk to, who have been in the industry for a long time, think that doubles is a product that just people don't want to watch and that it doesn't sell and that it costs the tours money. And that's one of the reasons you're seeing Opelka and Wertheim and Roddick, and these people say that you know, we don't need doubles, we don't need double specialists, and that's. I think that's one of the questions we're going to have to answer. Is, you know, is there a place for double specialists in the future of tennis? And I don't, you know, I think there absolutely is, whether it's a part of the singles tour or its own separate tour or whatever. But I think it has to be delivered in the right way, and the current product is not being delivered in the right way, especially the TV experience, which we can get into as well. So I'm not sure if that answers your question exactly. But how do you feel what? Where do you feel like we're at now and what needs to happen?

Speaker 2

I think. I think a lot of this stuff can be talked around. You know, like and like I said, taking some of the comments, you know we don't need a next rohan bopana. I actually it was actually rohan that told me that last week I was having lunch with him and he was kind of like he was cracking up a little bit, but it's obviously quite offensive. You know, someone's kind of got to that stage. You know, just because people play doubles doesn't mean they want to watch it. You know, just like one-on-one basketball, coco van der Wey and Prakash Amitraj chimed in uh, I don't think the double sells. You know, I think there's a. There's a lot of these comments that are made and you know I certainly I have respect for all of those people and I think we just need to kind of get rid of that from a starting point would be would be one thing I would say is like it's not about the. What it's about the, who is the is the way that I would summarize that let's, let's not try and pretend that it's the product. It's not the product.

Speaker 2

You put four love islanders who have got 1.5 million followers on uh on social media on a court. You will, they will sell tickets and people will come and watch them play singles or doubles, even though it'll be a pile of rubbish. You know, like my kids were at wimbledon with me last year, they were more excited for the two that won the british love island show than they were. They were about meeting anybody else. You know, like this is the way that the world has gone, so I think we need to be careful on that. I think we also need to be careful on saying that we need to get more singles players playing doubles. I know, last week in Indian Wells, eventually, there was only 20 singles players top 50 singles players, but in the original draw there was only 20 singles players top 50 singles players, but in the original draw there was 27,. You know, male singles players and on the female side there was 34. So we're talking about almost the majority of players in those doubles draws are actually what we call traditional singles players, you know. So that's another one. I think we need to kind of lose, because any singles player, any player, can sign in any week, right? So so so the opportunities are there, so there's obviously a reason that they don't. There's certainly more so on the men's side, and and and in the grand slams, um. So I think there's lots of different things that are put out there that are maybe just a bit ignorant.

US Open Mixed Doubles Controversy

Speaker 2

Now. What I'd like to do with you today will actually is I think everyone should be heard and I think, yes, I coach for professional doubles players that are all making their living from that, and I guess, technically me, as a doubles coach right now, I am as well, but we are all part of one big traveling circus. We're all on the same team, you know. That's another thing. I think we need to get our heads around. You know the tennis industry, the tennis world. There's many, many different aspects to it, and you know, through both of our podcasts, we've had the opportunity to speak to lots of amazing people that play the different roles within the sport, and I think we need to try and think a little bit more as a team actually, and we need to try and listen to different perspectives. And I guess my starting point for that is you know where a lot of this boils down to is we have seven governing bodies, and you know where a lot of this boils down to is we have seven governing bodies and you know those seven governing bodies and I'm not going to sit here and take a swipe at anybody that runs those different governing bodies, because we all live in our life in quite a blinkered way, right, you know it's quite hard to step out. So we take Eric Buderak, who you know I've got a lot of respect for, eric, eric's job at the US Open is to have the most successful US Open brand that he can. You know, and what does that entail? Well, that's going to entail commercial value. That's going to you know what success measure will be, how much money they bring in, how many fans they bring. You know what broadcasting rights they have, the sustainability of the event, you know.

Speaker 2

So when we look at, let's say, the mixed doubles situation in isolation, if you're just in your world of thinking of the us open, I think it's probably a good move.

Speaker 2

You know, in terms, and for those that don't know what I'm talking about, the us open this year is the mixed doubles event will happen in week one, the qualifying week. Uh, with 16 teams, um, over two days. They've shortened the format. Espn are on board, they've got big broadcasting rights, but eight of those spots will go to singles players and eight spots will go to wild cards which, let's be honest, the majority will be singles players as well. So, from that perspective and if we maybe address that first, well, from that perspective, I can see it. I can see it from the individual governing body standpoint. You know, we'd like to think that people will think more about tennis and history and tradition and you know all of these, the reason that we all got into this sport and the dreams and all of this. However, I can see it from that point of view why the US Open would go that route with their product within their brand.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think one of the things that people miss when they're having these conversations and you're right, like it's important for us to kind of step out of our like, take our blinders off and look at it from each of these perspectives this with somebody like Eric, which I know USTA has to kind of validate any podcast that he's on or whatever. And then, or somebody like John Wertheim, who has a different perspective, but we don't have that, unfortunately. So we do the best we can on this conversation. But one of the things I think people are missing when they talk about these solutions, like the mixed double solution that they've come up with for at least this year, for the US Open, and I do think it's going to change over the next several years. It's not going to look the same in 2026 as it does in 2025 and so on, but the timescales really matter and this is very much. Maybe it's more of like an American thing, especially with you know the way American, I guess, like big business and like capitalism is is like they're so focused on these like quarterly earnings and quarterly profits, and when you do that, you're oftentimes making trade-offs for 10 years down the road to make more money now and I think this mixed doubles decision is absolutely going to work this year and the US Open is going to make more money off of mixed doubles this year than they ever have in the past. But If your goal is to profit or make the US Open better or make the brand bigger over the next two years, this is absolutely the right move. But if your goal is to make mixed doubles a sustainable product over the next 20 years, I'm not sure. So I think for the short term, this is a great decision. I think for the short term, this is a great decision.

Speaker 1

One of the things you mentioned on your podcast I know you didn't have Eric on, but you said you had talked with him is he basically said that what he cannot have is four double specialists on the court because ESPN just won't have it right. So that makes sense to me, right? Espn doesn't want four people that nobody's heard of on a primetime spot on a Wednesday or Thursday night or Tuesday or Wednesday, I think it is. So they've got to sell this to ESPN. They had to guarantee that they get Coco Gauff on, or Taylor Fritz or Ben Shelton or whoever the American stars are, or Sinner or Alcaraz or Iga. So to do that, naturally A polka? Probably not, but maybe. So to do that, they naturally have to cut the double specialist out of the draw for now. So I think it's going to be profitable for them. It's going to be a good kind of short-term moneymaker.

Speaker 1

I've got issues with it that I've talked about. I think that the players aren't going to put 100% effort in, so it's kind of doing a disservice to what sport is really about. Right, like we, we go to watch people try their hardest at the highest level, and that's not what this is going to be. Like you can't if they get Coco to play or Alcaraz. Like you can't tell me they're going to put 100% effort into winning this mixed doubles draw.

Speaker 1

Like there's, they're not. They have singles to worry about less than a week later when it starts. So you know, less than a week later when it starts. So you know, if I were to do this longer term, we need to find a mixed doubles tour where the players are going to try their hardest and play at the highest level so that we actually have a best mixed doubles team or mixed doubles player. So that's how I think about it. I think it makes sense short term. I don't like it long term. I also think it's going to change a lot over the next five years. I don't think it's going to stay the same. Overall, I'm kind of glad that they're at least trying something, and I hope they don't continue to cut out double specialists though of this.

Speaker 2

It's like I go back to the traveling circus. If you go to the traveling circus, you're going not that I've ever been to a traveling circus, but I imagine you're going for the trapezium star, the guy who does the dangerous flips, and you know like you're buying your ticket for that right, but you then get to maybe see a few people jumping off elephants as as part of the show. You know, but you're buying your ticket for the star. And the second perspective I want to would look at this will is like, if we look at it from a commercial standpoint, the sponsors, the broadcasters tennis is bloody complicated, right, it's, it's hard, it's, it's not an, it's not an easy sport. The reality is, if you're going to get the biggest and best sponsors, what they, what they're going to say is I want 16 players, maybe eight, and I want them to play 16 events a year in 16 different cities and regions around the world. And I want to see Alcaraz-Sinna every week. We're still yet to see Alcaraz-Sinna play in a Grand Slam final. I believe you know, like I want to see Fonseca play against Alcaraz. You know I want to see these rivalries. I want to see Yannick Sinna run off with Carlos Alcaraz's girlfriend, and then they play each other in Rio the next week. You know, like this is from a commercial standpoint, that is what they want, right?

Speaker 2

So the reality is doubles players and low-ranked singles. When I say low-ranked, I'm talking outside top 20, which is why I can't listen to certain players saying things, because they're all on the same boat. You know like I will listen to carlos alcaraz because he is the one right now, or one of the ones, that is holding our tour up. He's the reason that thousands and thousands of people have a job within the world of tennis, because they're the ticket sellers. And you'll get, I know that, like Riley Opelka comments and again I respect this comment Carlos Alcaraz needs to play somebody. That's the argument. That's the singles argument. You know doubles doesn't need to happen. Well, he does need to play somebody, but he only needs probably 16 players on that tour to play. And that's like a Formula One Make the rivalries draw the crowds in. But the issue I have with that because that's again, if we're looking at the success measure being a commercial market what brings the most money in, what the broadcasters want, how you make it a spectacle, how you then have the best Netflix show because you've got these intense relationships, how you do all of that. That is the way forward.

Speaker 2

The problem with Formula One and the problem already a little bit with tennis, but this would only enhance that is it's an unattainable sport to be a part of. You don't wake up in the northeast of england, newcastle, and go I'm going to be a formula one driver, you know. You probably don't wake up in some little city in utah and say the same. You know, like tennis is already quite an exclusive sport. Formula one's extremely exclusive. So the danger going down that route is the whole ecosystem of tennis falls apart because it's no longer an attainable thing.

Speaker 2

And one of the things I absolutely love about tennis is the hope. There's a feeling of hope, there's an entrepreneurial way. There's the Marcus Willis story. You know the guy who stopped playing tennis. He's a tennis coach. He signs in for the pre-qualies. You know he pre-qualifies to qualify. He then beats Medvedev, Rublev and another to qualify for Wimbledon. He then wins his first round. You know, 10 matches later he's playing Roger Federer on centre court at Wimbledon. You know what I mean. Like the story just fills your heart with joy, right and warmth and it's like that's for me what tennis is. But that doesn't go hand in hand with this real kind of commercial benefits and where that it's going. But that is, and players need to wake up to this. That is the reality, that is, and players need to wake up to this. That is the reality. That is the reality and that's where, if we're not careful, that's where the sport is going to go from an elite, exclusive level.

Options for Doubles' Future

Speaker 1

That makes sense. So you're probably more familiar with Formula One than I am, but there's also Formula Two and Formula Three, right that are. I don't know if Formula One needs them, but they are like part of the weekend experience. You know, if you're a 12 year old who's into cars and into driving and you want to be a professional driver, there's also NASCAR, there's also drag racing, there's also IndyCar, there's like all these other driving options. So like Formula One's the pinnacle. So you know, maybe if it goes that direction, like there is the elite tour with the top eight or 16 players in the world, but then there's also a lower tour and there's also a doubles tour. I'm not saying I want this, I'm just saying like maybe it is sustainable for some of these lower players. I don't know what's your thoughts on that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, maybe, and I think, if I'm talking, if we talk specifically doubles, will and I, any doubles players listen to this, listening to this, listening to this wake up, stop ignoring this. Also, don't turn around and say, well, I'm 35, I've only got 2 or 3 years left, so it doesn't affect me, because we're a fraternity here. There's a real possibility that this is going to get pushed out. I see 3 things that can happen, or three ways. One just shut up and accept it and acknowledge do you know what? We are the mistress of tennis. That's our place. We'll be brought out every now and then to play on some big courts, to fill some content, and but then we'll get shoved back in there, which is what the, what the tours ultimately are using doubles for. Right, they want to, they want to have them to kind of bring about every now and then, um, they want to have it. So some kind of big stars play every now and then and they get a little bit of content, um, but it's no more or less than than that, um, and then it comes. You know, you come out to play every now and then. So you, maybe, you accept it and you go okay, we're making some decent money. Um, that's just what where our place is. Um two, you get together and you and you fight, and you fight within the tours. That's not going to be easy, because you've got seven governing bodies and you haven't. You are unable to showcase your value. Probably the third aspect is you need to break free. And break free and provide your own value. And you know, we've seen it with many sports. Right, we've seen it's a bit of a sorry to to bring this sport up, but darts, like and I don't know it's quite so big in in america.

Speaker 2

Darts has completely rebranded itself, but what they've done and it's like anything will right it's it's not about the game of darts, it's about the characters, it's about the who. You know, they've created this thing that people have bought in. Like, there's a young lad called Luke Littler. He's 17 years old, he's massively overweight, he actually doesn't seem to have much about him, but they've created this guy into a superstar and he happens to be very good at throwing darts. When luke littler goes and plays darts anywhere in europe, certainly, so certainly in the uk he will have thousands and thousands and thousands of people that will buy tickets to watch and play darts, and they've managed to do that with various characters, from the music that they come out to to their nicknames, to their, you know, they've created their own brands. So it's ultimately it's about the who. Right, it goes back to this thing.

Speaker 2

It's about the who that they're buying into Pickleball, like, for me, pickleball. They've thrown the kitchen sink in it, but I don't believe they've really created any who's. You know, there's not really any from what I can see, apart from jack sock or genie bouchard. You know that. But and every now and then you see Steffi Graf and Andre Agassi doing something with Pickleball, but it seems to me like they're throwing the kitchen sink at it, and this would be the danger of going that route is, when you get that donor fatigue, you know, is that going to last? My gut will tell me that Pickleball won't necessarily last unless they fairly sharpish, create some absolute stars that everyone knows and everyone wants to be part of.

Speaker 2

But I think those are the options that the doubles tour has, and I for one, and actually, and I'm sure Rohan won't mind me saying, you know, and I got the sense because I spoke to Rohan last week and Rohan's just turned 45 years old and he's had this incredible, incredible career and I felt he was a bit tired with the discussion actually. And you know, one of the things he said is he said, no, we just we should start an over 35 doubles tour. He said start an over 35 doubles tour. They play for three months, you then have three months off, you then play for three more months and then you have three more months off, have three more months off and you create this, this, this tour that actually you know you get, obviously you get big finance behind it. You, you start creating some stars in their own right. You know you, you know take, you might take that tour and you know to to various places. He also said that then players can still, players can still at the singles tournaments.

Speaker 2

If the grand slams still want to have doubles, okay, still have that as a part of it.

Speaker 2

But but let's actually the reality is the seven governing bodies don't have a place for doubles other than it's just a bit of a placeholder when they need it. And at some point, as that evolves, that would be the first to go. So when all is said and done on this, I do believe that we're really going to be left with no choice. But if doubles is going to survive at a professional level not just survive but thrive then it needs to start looking into what the options are to going their, their, their own route. And the last thing I would say on it will and I'd love to hear your thoughts is that what knowing human beings like won't happen until the pain point gets stronger than it currently is. For that initiation of change to truly happen, the pain point needs to get stronger, and and I don't think we're quite there yet, but watch this space because that those pain points could start to get pretty strong over the next couple of years if we're not careful.

Speaker 1

I think you're right. I think that's a good way to think about it. The do nothing option I mean they can do that for now, but things are going to change, so that's not the route this is going to go. In 10 years, the doubles tour is not going to be the same as it is today. One of the other two options is going to happen.

Speaker 1

I think the break free pathway. You're right. It requires enough pain for the players to make the change. I think it would also require somebody with a lot of money to support it would yeah, to support a professional doubles, standalone doubles tour. It's something I think is possible. I really do, and this is you know again, since I'm relatively new to this.

Speaker 1

I've learned a ton over the last like five to seven years about the Pro Tour and how this different stuff operates. I've asked 100, 150 people on my podcast how can we make doubles more popular? I've had non-off-air conversations with people like Rohan and Eric and Matt, ebden and Gabby and all sorts of different players. But I think that for it to break free of different players, but I think that for it to break free, the pain point is going to come from the tours continuing to basically undercut the doubles specialists and that's what we've seen with the mixed US Open, at least for this year. And when they break free, I guess somebody will have to just be there with some money to say, hey, I'll pay you and we'll do our own doubles tour.

Speaker 2

Absolutely Nail on the head. It's like that goes back into the who right To get to know the players. They have to be seen and obviously TV broadcasting is a big part of that, you know, having commentators, announcers that are giving background stories and building that as a part of that. But I also I mean I sat in a meeting it was maybe last year in Australia with the WTA, and this is my bit. Actually I'm going to get on the players a bit here, will, because I've said it now a couple of times they need to wake up because, like I, I a couple, a couple of bits, a couple of little bits of insight, and I won't say names, but I think this is important because I think this is kind of the lazy attitude the players have. One I know for a fact there was players, once the mixed doubles bit came out about US Open, they were like making comments like let's boycott the US Open this year. You know, these same players are the players that have made fun of mixed doubles for the last 10 years.

Speaker 2

I don't know what the percentage is, but on the men's tour there's not a very high percentage of players that have respected mixed doubles actually over the last few years. You know there's not many of them that sign in. There's quite a few of them that don't give their best efforts. The majority of them will turn around and say it's not a Grand Slam anyway. You know I've had first-hand experience of that when I was coaching harry helia vara and he won the event with anna danilina. You know there wasn't a whole lot of respect given, um. So then to turn around and say, well, this is ridiculous that you're doing that, I don't think you're that validated actually to be able to say that when you haven't given it the utmost respect in the first place.

Speaker 2

The second thing that I would say and I led with the WTA bit and I will get to that is I spoke to Xavier Melis on this and this is very true of players. How many players have a respect for the sponsors, for understanding truly where the revenue is coming from? You know, putting their hands up to go and give, do demonstrations, go and put their hands up to go and have a drink with the sponsors at events. You know, like I know, there is some. You know there is some, but there's there's not enough. Enough that respect and understand the bigger picture of how it happens right when the money comes from. And I remember Xavier Melisse saying to me he said I wish when I was a player I understood that better. He said now I'm playing in the kind of veteran events I always go and have a glass of wine with the sponsors, and he might have even said smoke, a cigar or whatever it might have been. But I'm not saying that the players need to do that, but that's the stuff that gets, gets the right people involved, gives them that special feeling of being connected. That then means that they want to be part of this and you've got them hooked then. Right, you've got them in. Now the players are the real assets on that and building those personalities and building those connections is massive. So that's, that's from that side.

Players Taking Initiative for Change

Speaker 2

The other side is and this is finally to the WTA meeting in Australia. There was a new marketing manager in place and one of the topics of it, of the agenda, was they need to be careful where they have cameras, because the players and I understand this from the player's perspective but the players feel that they are being recorded in their most vulnerable moments, in the gym, outside the locker rooms, outside the court, wherever it might be, and and they were. The players were saying they they wanted to get rid of the cameras in these areas, fully understand and respect that in in lots of ways. However, if we truly want people to connect with our players the who, the who, not the what that completely is counter intuitive to to the way that we do it. Actually, because you might not want people to see you crying after a match and that heartache after a match, but guess what the viewer does? And that's how people consume content right now. That's how people feel connected. Like my wife and I know a lot of her friends. They watch this like love is blind. They all seem to be like obsessed with it and I'm like, are we being serious? Like I watched it like a little bit of an episode. It's like two people talking to a wall, through a wall, to each other. Like, are you being serious? So what the hell is that? Yet this thing is like massive. It's a massive, massive show. It's like what? Like it's crazy, but that's what people want, because people want to feel emotion, people want to connect to vulnerability, people want to feel something authentic. You know all of these bits and actually, in reality, unless doubles players are willing to go that route in 2025,.

Speaker 2

I also believe we're not going to be building stars, we're not going to be building these connections. Yes, you need to have the broadcasters, but the broadcasters might come on board right. Like you know, love 15 Island, or whatever we're going to call it, do you know what I mean? Like, imagine the doubles too, and I've said this a few times on the podcast it'd be like love island on steroids, listening to those conversations about the players switching partners, and you know the challenges that, the challenges that they're having. Because that's what we want in life. We want to, we want to connect to things that we, that we feel it's actually not about I formation, serve team move right. It's not about that. That's nice to see and it's nice to understand, and it'd be nice to understand the tactics a bit more, but it's about. It's about connecting to the characters and that will be my, my thing. I think players can't just sit there and expect that they're going to be paid millions and that they're always going to have a place and they're always going to have these things unless they bring that value. And that might not be for everybody, that might not be, but that is the way it's going.

Speaker 2

Andy Murray. The world fell in love with Andy Murray in 2012 when he lost the Wimbledon final and he cried his heart out. He sobbed like a little boy and we all fell in love with him. Up until then, he was just a grumpy, he was a grumpy Brit. Then, all of a sudden, we were like, oh my goodness, this guy's got he's got a heart, he's got a soul, he's got a. And then, bit by bit, people started to connect to him and now Andy Murray is one of the most loved athletes out there globally because of the vulnerability that he showcased.

Speaker 2

That's the bit, for me, that I think we need to open our eyes to, and I think the players need to get together.

Speaker 2

I think they need to really understand that this isn't going to be forever, but there's a massive opportunity to create something special because they're fantastic at what they do. Let's be honest doubles is a brilliant game to watch. It's fast, it's exciting. The scoring system you might even create a little change even more, but I think the scoring system is very as annoying as it is as a coach to dominate the match for an hour, then lose the key 10 minutes in the 10-point tiebreaker. It does bring drama, but then let's see the reaction afterwards and let's see those you know partnerships flow and not. Those partnerships flow and not. And just like we talked about from a commercial aspect on the singles tour, let's get those rivalries, get people connected to those rivalries and that's an important point here as well, will when they're switching partners all the time, unless we get to know why that does damage to the sport as well, because it's hard to it's hard to connect to those teams as well so this is kind of like a challenge to the players.

Speaker 1

Right like this is what they need to do to take into their own hands. I think this is where there's massive opportunity for doubles, because singles is very you know, know, tradition. I mean tennis in general, right is very stuck in tradition. If you look at the TV experience of F1, like we talked about earlier in, like I don't know, 2005 to 2025, it's a totally different TV experience. It's so much better Tennis it's almost identical to what it was 20 years ago, right, and I think, singles even more so. So this is where doubles has an opportunity to innovate.

Speaker 1

The players have an opportunity to really put themselves out there and be vulnerable. They can do this through their own kind of social media channels, through coming on different podcasts, talking to media. They do need to be talking to sponsors, like you talked about, and this is something that I've talked with some higher level, I guess, executives and tournament directors on the ATP side and some of the majors, and they've talked about how the players aren't great at this. The the players aren't great at this. The doubles players aren't great at this. Now, I think they're being a little unfair because I don't think doubles players are less inclined than singles players to turn down some sort of offsite media thing. I think it's probably about the same percentage as singles players. Unfortunately for doubles players, they don't have the leverage to do this.

Speaker 2

I read the singles players outside of the top 20 in the world, though in my opinion, yeah, yeah, okay, that's fair.

Speaker 1

But I think if the doubles players want to kind of take this into their own hands more which it sounds like you and I agree they should they've got to start taking these opportunities. And it's talked with I think it was Henry Patton over. It was one of the top ATP players during Indian Wells and he talks about how they do have more free time than a lot of the top singles players because they aren't requested to go, you know, to some suite in stadium one at indian wells to meet with one of the sponsors. They don't have to do a press conference after every match, so they have a little bit more free time to kind of do some of this stuff, and a lot of them unfortunately right now just don't want to, but they should yeah, I mean you've got the one that also jumps into my head.

Speaker 2

So I had I had on the podcast recently a young guy, felix mishik um, from the tennis brothers, and he's got about 250 000 followers on youtube. He creates content. He actually has a traveling guy who does that with him. He's ranked 2000 in the world, but he probably makes more money than someone who's 50 in the world and doubles so. So it actually comes back to like, how do we measure success? Right, and some people below. He's only 2000 in the world, but what a smart young man. He's creating a career and be oh, he's only 2,000 in the world, but what a smart young man. He's creating a career and he's recognized the way that the world has gone and how people like to consume content and he's got 250,000 people and that's growing all the time that are on his YouTube channel.

Speaker 2

I know my son is one of them, you know. I know that you know the modern day. I've got the Tennis Academy in Spain where I know the way that people like to consume content. Now they were more excited about him coming on the podcast than sorry, harry and Henry. I love you guys. But then, harry and Henry, who have won two out of the four grand slams. It is two out the last three grand slams. You know like that's the reality, right, and again I go back to it. It's because he's become a who. People know who he is, but he's created yeah he's told his stories, he's become kind of vulnerable.

Speaker 1

I mean, that's a word that I think will keep. It should come up and has kept coming up. But it's an advantage that doubles players have, because a lot of the singles players you saw it on the Netflix, which got canceled after like two seasons, like all the top singles players like Sabalenka and whoever else they're so well-trained in PR and a lot of the times at these tournaments I'll get a media credential and I don't go into a lot of the press conferences because you don't get anything. You get the blanket, boring statements right and these doubles players don't have that same like they don't have the agent that they have to go through all the time to get something approved. They can just be themselves and I think the more they kind of latch onto that and grasp that, the better and the more that people in the general public can learn about them and connect with them and you know, learn that.

Speaker 1

Oh, this doubles player is into some specific like hobby that I like also. So I think that's like a huge opportunity for doubles players. And then the tours have an opportunity that I don't know that they're going to take advantage of because I think they don't care enough, I guess. But they can use doubles as kind of an experimentation ground with, like you know, I'm a big fan of the free fan movement. I hate when I walk up and it's 30, all love all in the second set and we have to sit there for 10 minutes to get into the stadium. I think the people paid for their ticket. They should be able to move in and out whenever they want, so they could do that for doubles. They tried to mic up some players in Washington last year I think Harry did it and it went kind of semi-viral.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but why did that stop I?

Speaker 1

don't know, I don't think they care enough. It goes back to the thing I said at the beginning. I think the tours are mostly just neglecting doubles and it's those. Things don't have an immediate payoff, right, and it goes back. It goes back to the timescale thing. These US Open mixed doubles changes have an immediate payoff this year for the US Open. Miking up Harry Helio Vara in Washington DC is a long-term investment in doubles specialists. The tours are not willing to invest long-term. It's too big of a gamble for them, same for the seven governing bodies.

Speaker 1

I guess they're not willing to risk what they have now to invest in doubles long-term Right, it's not important enough and they don't know that it's going to work. So it has to be somebody with kind of vision. And if you're a doubles player and you want to just bank on someone with vision, I would love to do it myself. I don't have the money. But if somebody comes in with a bunch of money and allows the doubles players to break free, great. But I don't know. If I was a player like I would be taking as much of it into my own hands as possible because this whole thing could be taken out from under us in the next two or three years.

Speaker 2

But again it's like, unfortunately, where we're selfish as human beings, right, so that's kind of the way what human beings are made so for how many doubles players are out there that are like I'm definitely going to be playing in four or five years, so then it's like not going to affect me. It comes back to that pain point bit.

Speaker 1

Again it's like it's not real or painful enough the question I would have is like okay, so you're gonna retire at 40 or 38 or 42, and what are you gonna do? A lot of the doubles players, I don't know. Do they have enough money to, like, retire and never work again? I mean, I see a lot of them go end up working at academies or at clubs or some of them might.

Creating Better Entertainment Experiences

Speaker 2

You might get the odd one, but obviously someone like rohan's got his own academy in india. You know, I know alexa guarachi who stopped playing about a year ago and he's just had a child, but she she's director of a country club. Those things are out there, right. Those those possibilities. And she was someone like a harry helia vara. He'll have a federation job if he wants one.

Speaker 2

Davis Cup captain commentating in Finland. You know like there's enough gigs for them all out there. But yeah, I think the interesting one here is like, not that we want to grade the players, but you've got your A players right. You know, mira Andreeva's moved into being an A player now, alcaraz Sabalenka, obviously, djokovic, sinner, you've got these A players that are your superstars. But the way I'd be looking at it, you've then got your B players. Your B players are probably all right. They're like the singles players between five and 20.

Speaker 2

My message to tennis players is 20 and below in singles and doubles players, your CD players, guys and this is not a guarantee for all of you that this tour is going to stay the same I'd actually be saying right, how do you get everyone together, almost C and D players and below, because then you've got your E, your Fs, your Gs, you've got. You know, we haven't obviously touched upon players that are trying to play doubles on the challenger circuits and you've got players that are trying to make their way through. You know, and we're not going to solve all of that, but for me, almost everyone outside of those superstars and maybe like the ones behind that, like Jack Draper's not quite the superstar yet but he's close, you know he's getting to. Ben Shelton he's not quite a superstar yet, but maybe they're like the B players. You know they're like the B players, you know they're needed, they're going to be needed, they're going to be fine.

Speaker 2

You know, if this vision goes ahead with 16, 20 players or whatever it might be, but the rest are in a position where it's maybe a little bit more unknown, I would say, you know, and it'd be quite powerful to get everyone together and go right, right, okay, what are we? What are we going to create here? What is going to be created? And look, you could go into all sorts of bits. Right, there's some innovation to happen and, yeah, I hope this conversation and other conversations maybe opens people's eyes to that a little bit.

Speaker 1

Yeah, there's a lot more we could have talked about, but generally, this is a time I guess maybe we're at the beginning of it, maybe we're in the middle of it, but this is a time where changes are coming and, yeah, people have to take it into their own hands to try to innovate and do what they think is best for the long term. I just can't stress enough how important thinking on these bigger timescales is. And you're right, there's plenty of jobs for a lot of the doubles players after they retire. But I think a handful of them if there are big changes to a doubles tour and if a doubles tour does break free would want to be involved in that. I think some of them are A lot of them.

Speaker 1

Ellen Perez is on the Players Council for the WTA now. Matt Ebden has been very involved the last few years. Andrea Vavasori, who I had on the podcast during Indian Wells, is on the Player Council now and going to be looking to push for more changes as well. So I'm hoping we see more of that from the doubles players and hopefully the tours can at least not block them and maybe even support them towards making doubles what at least I think it can be.

Speaker 2

To finish off, if there was one to two changes, adaptations, evolutions that you'd like to see in the next three to six months, what would those be?

Speaker 1

So I talked with Matt Ebden about this last year and he said one of the quotes he said on my podcast was I want doubles to be the party. I don't know if I agree with that. I don't want it to turn into like an exhibition. I want it to be a sport still. But I also think a lot about the US Open. A couple years ago I brought a friend of mine to the tournament from New York. He's not a tennis fan, uh, he had never been to a pro tennis tournament. And we go into the one of the singles matches and we have to wait for the changeover. And then we get in there and we have to be really quiet and then he's like all right, I'm done with my honeydew, so I want another one. Oh wait, we have to wait like 10 minutes for the next changeover and then we can go get it. And then we go get the honeydew. So then we come back in and we have to wait another 10 minutes to get back.

Speaker 2

Well, he must have some money to be able to afford two of those.

Speaker 1

He lives in New York so they all make money. So like, I think about that a lot and I'm like, well, what if court 17 was a doubles court and I brought that same friend over to the doubles court and we were able to go in, we were able to make noise. Maybe there's a little music between games or between points. He's able to go in and out and get his drink as quickly as he wants. What is he going to say after leaving the US Open? He's going to be a doubles fan. He's going to say I don't want to go to the singles court, it's boring, it's quiet, I have to be quiet. It takes me forever to get a drink. I want to go to the doubles court. So that doesn't answer your question in terms of like one or two changes. That perspective, the fan perspective, I think is the way forward for us to grow doubles and to make it as popular as I think it can be.

Speaker 1

I talked about the TV experience earlier. That's another aspect to it, but that little analogy there kind of summarizes the on-site experience. So, free fan movement for sure. Allow fans to talk during play. I think that's okay. If everyone's talking. It's kind of a white noise. You saw it? I don't think Gabby and Aaron played on court six in Australia, but court six was like a party court with a gray goose tent right next to it. It's so loud and the players just play through it because it's like a white noise. So innovations like this, I think, will help make doubles more fun for fans. And then the TV product needs changes as well.

Closing Thoughts and Call to Action

Speaker 2

What I like about that Will as well, as we've talked about the who, not the what. But that just gives a second kind of strong piece as well, which is the experience how people are entertained. You know they're entertained in a number of different ways, right, but giving that different experience and I don't know if you've ever been to Auckland, but I would suggest you should try one day and Auckland does a really cool thing, I think, and they are packed for all matches all day on that centre court what they've got is they've got, I'm going to say, 150 tables, so your whole kind of first section around the court and then second section above the court, around that, and then you've got your stands above that. It's all table service tables. So now you don't have to leave the court unless you drink too much and you need to go to the bathroom. You don't have to go and get your honeydew, you know you've got someone bringing that to you and I thought it was a really nice experience because even as a coach and I was sat on that court four matches with the boys you are right next to one of the tables, so I think we were next to apparel spritz, you know, and you've got what they, what they tend to do in auckland and I guess if we take somewhere like auckland, for them the WTATP coming to town is kind of cool, right, they probably don't have a lot of global international sports that are coming to them and they make the best of it and it's like you know what, this is the two weeks of the year, you know, all of the businesses come in, they all have their tables.

Speaker 2

They bring like cheese and biscuits and they've got the drinks are flowing and and it is kind of quite, it happens, even though there's that many tables, it happens quite seamlessly actually, how you've got the table service happening, which I guess makes sense. Right, you've got 10 waiters or waitresses or 15 moving about rather than 2,000 people going in and out. You know, and I thought that was a really cool thing and like what they did is. I mean, there was a couple of matches got way too late and then the crowds got a bit cold and maybe the crowds got a bit lower, but you had a packed stadium for pretty much every single match, singles or doubles there, because it was just seen as an entertainment, as an event, you know, and that's what you're doing and I don't think people are differentiating between what they're watching singles or doubles they're just there for the experience.

Speaker 2

Um, that's just a one small little innovative way of doing it right. And you know why couldn't that happen? And I, I'd be all for this kind of innovative way of doing it right, and you know what, why couldn't that happen? And I, I'd be all for this kind of innovative way of working in doubles. You know, get people in the stands, get some music playing, get it rocking and rolling and and obviously then, alongside that, get people knowing the players, get it out there, get these players vulnerable. And I think, I think there's there's, there's a real product there that could be, could be moved in the right direction. But I don't know what you think, because we're coming to the end now and I think we gotta we gotta probably hang our hat on something. I don't think that the tours are going to change anything in reality yeah, I mean, as you're saying, all that I'm thinking to to myself.

Speaker 1

okay, who's going to do this? And in Auckland I guess it's the tournament director did that for the stadium court, but who's that can do this sort of thing? And maybe doubles players who want to see this change do finally at some point band together and say we're doing this, we're going to mic up and we're going to tell the tournament that we play in. Let fans have free movement and let them go in and out to buy drinks, like we don't care, during some of the doubles matches. I don't know how it would work, but well, let me ask you this, will you?

Speaker 2

you'll know more about this than me, because to me, pickleball is just a highly annoying sport that you're hitting, making lots of loud noise and whatever. It's a bit of an off in sport to me. But who? Who has made that happen? Because I see enough on social media to know that when you've got andre agassi, stephy graff coming out to play, you've got you've got andy roddick jumping in, you've got you know jack socks talking about playing pickleball instead of tennis. You've've got Jeannie Bouchard, you've got various people. There's been a movement of sorts, right.

Speaker 1

I think it's a lot of rich people in the US have invested money into it. So a lot of like I don't know if it's like venture capital firms. There's one guy I follow who's like a really good marketer and he invests in all these businesses and he's I don't know I don't know the guy, but he's worth I don't know like a hundred million dollars or more, and I know he's invested in the pro pickleball tour. So I think a lot of these rich kind of entrepreneurs saw an opportunity to invest in the tour and a lot of times with those type of investments they're not necessarily looking for a payoff in like one or two years. They're looking for a payoff in like five or 10 years. Will it pay off for them?

Speaker 1

That remains to be seen. I feel like it's not a great product for TV. Personally, you're certainly not going to get like a US Open type event around pickleball where people are traveling from all over the world to watch pickleball. So I think a lot of them are going to end up losing money on this bet. But that's why it's blown up so much is because there's just been, from my understanding, just tons of money is flowing into it.

Speaker 2

But that's my point right, we're talking about a historical game here in tennis with, you know, fairly established um entry points. You know fairly established events, tournaments, um, you know, if we take let's take rohan bopana in india, he's a big deal. When I was in new zealand, everyone was loving me because I was Mike Venus and Aaron Routliff's coach. They're thanking me for everything that I do for tennis. I was almost a bit embarrassed with it, but they are a big deal in New Zealand, so there has to be some opportunity out there, I guess.

Speaker 1

All right, so I guess we'll close it off there, dan. Thanks a ton for having me. Hopefully we'll close it off there. Dan, thanks a ton for having me. Hopefully some of the players, some people in the tennis industry profession, listened to this and it got them thinking a little bit. I think conversations like this are really, really important to have for doubles going forward, for the future of doubles, for the future of the sport that we care a lot about. So hopefully we can keep the conversation going and we can do this again. So thanks a ton for having me on and, obviously, thanks for coming on my show as well. We'll get this published on the Doubles Only podcast as well, so I will talk to you soon.

Speaker 2

No, thank you, Will, and thank you for having me on the Doubles Only podcast, and I guess my last thank you as well is for all that you're doing. I know from the tennis world, or the players, the coaches, you know, getting that voice out there, and if we had a lot more wills in the world, I think we would be having a movement happening, uh, right now, and that's that's what we need. We, we feel very passionate about it, but there's a lot of people that feel passionate about it as well. So thank you to everyone for listening, and we don't proclaim to have all the answers. You know there'll be certain things that we've missed in this conversation.

Speaker 2

Uh, there'll be certain things that we've got opinions that we just didn't have time to give. But please do reach out to us as well. You know we'd love we'd love to hear from all of you. Let's keep this conversation going. Anyone wants to come on, anybody on. That's an open offer to anybody Andy Roddy, kareli, opelka you know anybody in the world that wants to come and have you know. I think you can see by the opinions that we've given here today, we're not just here to look at this from one side. We fully appreciate there's lots of different sides to this. There's lots of different lenses that all these key decisions need to come from, and I think having a healthy conversation with everyone around the table is is is what we need.

Speaker 2

We need to listen to each other, we need to respect each other and we need to keep progressing our beautiful sport in lots of different ways, and certainly we see doubles as a big part of that. So big thank you to Will and to all of you, as ever, for for listening.