1. How can we help women get rid of debt in a sustainable and less stressful way?
2. What are the tangible habits or tips that can help us get out of debt sustainably?
Did you know that Americans carry student debt in the trillions of dollars and that women bear the burden of most of it? Coupled with the pandemic, the weight and stress of carrying debt has become worse for women and made it even more difficult to save for retirement, emergency funds, and pay for healthcare. So what can we do to turn this situation around for women?
In this episode, I sat down with Katy Almstrom, a financial coach, teacher, and speaker who works with women who are ready to pay off their debt in a sustainable way. We discuss her journey to becoming debt-free and the actionable tips that women can implement to get rid of their debt in a sustainable, and yes, joyful way!
Whether it's student, credit card, medical, or any other type of debt, we hope you come away with the knowledge and information you need to pay off your debt and learn to live debt-free.
Get access to Katy's must-have FREE guide to help you in your journey to a debt-free life. Details available at the end of our podcast conversation.
Subscribe to HerCanvas today to get your answers to the questions that matter most to you, and ultimately, find the inspiration to live your best life.
1. How can we help women get rid of debt in a sustainable and less stressful way?
2. What are the tangible habits or tips that can help us get out of debt sustainably?
Did you know that Americans carry student debt in the trillions of dollars and that women bear the burden of most of it? Coupled with the pandemic, the weight and stress of carrying debt has become worse for women and made it even more difficult to save for retirement, emergency funds, and pay for healthcare. So what can we do to turn this situation around for women?
In this episode, I sat down with Katy Almstrom, a financial coach, teacher, and speaker who works with women who are ready to pay off their debt in a sustainable way. We discuss her journey to becoming debt-free and the actionable tips that women can implement to get rid of their debt in a sustainable, and yes, joyful way!
Whether it's student, credit card, medical, or any other type of debt, we hope you come away with the knowledge and information you need to pay off your debt and learn to live debt-free.
Get access to Katy's must-have FREE guide to help you in your journey to a debt-free life. Details available at the end of our podcast conversation.
Subscribe to HerCanvas today to get your answers to the questions that matter most to you, and ultimately, find the inspiration to live your best life.
Americans carry a whopping 1.7 trillion Institute in debt of that women, especially women of color bear, the burden of most of it, 929 billion, which is two thirds of the nation's student debt. According to the American association of university women, black women carry about 20% more debt on average than white women, or more than any other group, the pandemic has made it even worse with women losing more jobs than men due to lack of childcare and being in the hardest hit industries, coupled with earning less income due to the gender pay gap, which is also wider for women of color and then paid maternity leave. It's no surprise. Women's struggle to repay their debt, the ramifications of carrying more debt and the inability to pay it off a dire. It means women do not have enough money to save for retirement. Emergency funds, auto pay for healthcare. No wonder women are stressed out. So what can we do to turn this situation around for women? How can we help women get rid of debt in a sustainable and less stressful way? What are the tangible habits or tips that can help us get out of debt sustainably?
Speaker 2:[inaudible]
Speaker 3:Hey everyone, welcome to her canvas podcast, where we discuss the topics that matter most to women and help us find the inspiration to live our best lives. I'm your host Janita curandera today I'm joined by Katie Armstrong. Katie is a financial coach, teacher and speaker who works with women who are ready to pay off that debt in a sustainable way with over a decade of experience in teaching and coaching combined with her own debt free journey and simplified life. Katie provides a unique service for our clients to help them slow down, map out their own joyful debt-free journey and create a life that has way less stress around money. Like many of us Katie has experienced the stress that comes along with carrying debt with a student loan or credit card debt. The burden of debt can be unbearable. And the idea of paying it off can feel unattainable. She's here today to share her journey, to becoming debt free and to provide actionable tips that women can implement to get rid of their debt in a sustainable and joyful way. Welcome to the show, Katie. I'm so excited to have you on today. I'm
Speaker 4:So happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm, I'm really happy to have you. Maybe you can start by telling us more about your background and your journey to becoming a financial coach, teacher and speaker.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. So, you know, it's really funny because when I decided to start this journey of being a financial coach, I was at the time a high school Latin teacher, and I was a coach. I was a college advisor. And so when I announced to everyone, I'm going to be a financial coach, I'm going to help women get out of debt. They were so confused because it was such a different, um, kind of, uh, path than what I was doing as a teacher. But the thing is, you know, when I was in my mid twenties, I had a lot of credit card debt had about$20,000 in credit card debt. And I know for some people, 3000 feels like a lot 80,000 feels like a lot, no matter what you're carrying and credit card debt, it feels like a burden. It is a burden, right? And it feels like a lot to us. So for me,$20,000 in credit card debt felt like a lot. I also had student loans that I was working on paying off and I had some medical debt. So I was 24, 25 years old. I was working as a brand new teacher, making very little income and feeling this burden of the debt feeling at that time. And I know a lot of us, you know, go through this in our early twenties, mid twenties, gosh, even into our thirties and wonder, are we going to make more money? Are we going to grow? Are we going to grow into bigger careers? Are we going to make progress? And am I going to be able to take care of this thing? Am I going to be able to handle this debt that I have? And for me, I really felt like I wasn't going to be able to handle it. And so I was caught up in this cycle of well, because I'm always going to be in debt. I might just want to use my credit cards. So I might as well go out to dinner and put it on a credit card. I might as well, like, forget about having a budget. I mean, this is just how my life was going to be in it kind of accepted it for a time, which was really, which was really hard. That was really heavy. And, um, basically I hit a 0.1 day where enough was enough and I needed to do something differently about the debt. So I did, I found a program that had, step-by-step really sort of, what do you focus on first? What do you do next? And I really gravitated towards that. That felt really good to me at the time that was my personality type. And that was just the, you know, I was single, I was on my own. I had the capacity to really do this by myself. Um, and for me that was what was exciting sort of going for this new goal, working a plan that was laid out for me. Um, and so that was my journey. I took about two years to pay off all of my debt. I worked my butt off and I had, you know, and that doesn't work for everybody. You know, my journey was my journey, my circumstances at the time or my circumstances. Um, I babysat, I dog sat, I house sat. I, you know, did all this sort of behind the scenes jobs I could, when I wasn't teaching, I had, I had a support system around me. You know, my boyfriend at the time would take me out to dinner. And so I had a very supportive system around me and people encouraging me. And I was, you know, I was really just motivated by the results that I started to see early on. So it was, it was, uh, you know, I talk about becoming debt free joyfully. It was a joyful journey for me. I was excited by the progress. I was excited by the sort of idea that things would change for me. Things were changing for me, those initial first steps I took just that it really shifted my mindset around my future with money and how quickly things can change when you decide to change.
Speaker 3:Wow. What a great journey. Thank you for sharing that. Katie, you know, some, you know, something that struck me actually, while you were talking about your background is this idea of joy, right? The idea, because when you think debt and trying to get rid of debt, you don't think of, of joy, but then the more I think about it, the more I think, well, you know, it's already stressful carrying the burden of debt. Why do we want to add the stress of now trying to pay it off? Why not find a way that you can, uh, try to, to get rid of it in a way that doesn't cause you additional stress. So I, I'm really excited to hear more, more about that because we can change the trajectory of how people approach that and how to get rid of it.
Speaker 4:You know, I think you, you said it already, I mean, this idea that it should be joyful does seem counterintuitive, but that is, that is the truth. You're not, you're not joyful in your current circumstances and not to say that some people aren't completely joyful and their circumstances, this interview probably isn't for you. If you're sitting with debt and you're, you know, pretty happy about it. But you know, for, for a lot of, for a lot of women, the reality is they're, they're carrying debt and they're not happy about it. There's no joy around that. And so the idea is I believe that there is a path. I believe that there's a journey for every single one of us to pay off debt in a way that feels better than what we're experiencing right now. And it comes down to a really, there's a couple of things that I see again and again and again. And one that, one of the most important things is that we haven't yet decided that we are going to go on this journey, right? We haven't committed to it. And a lot of that just has to do with our faith in ourselves to take the steps every day that it requires. Um, and so like any transformation in our lives, whether it's the way we take care of our bodies, right? With exercise or how we eat, whether it is our intimate relationships and how much energy and effort we pour into those, it takes time. Nothing really transforms overnight, but you can take certain steps that do feel like a major shift is happening. And there are there's, you know, these initial, these wins that we experienced that feels so good and keep us motivated. And so I think that's where the joy comes in is when we commit to something and we allow ourselves to have those early wins, which really just reinforced, you know, this, this faith that we can take a step and we can feel success, and then we can take the next step and feel success. Um, but that truly takes a commitment and a willingness to keep trying until we have those early wins. So that's one thing. The other thing that I find so often is that we, we don't go on to step free journey. We don't commit to this debt-free journey. We don't feel the joy because no matter what we try to, you know, in terms of the pain off the debt, whatever we try to pay off the debt, we haven't yet learned how to live without debt. And so we might feel really excited to make a big payment on our credit card. Or we might say, I'm going to knock out this, you know, this little student loan in the next six months, like that's really great, but if you haven't figured out a way to live without new debt consistently week over week, month over month, any time you then use debt again, even when you're trying to pay off that, it just feels like we're going one step forward and then two steps back. Or we just feel the weight of it. Even if you just have, you know, you might have Netflix or Hulu Disney plus, right? All the little things get audit. They automatically go on your credit card every month, even though you're not actively going and spending money, you still, you, you are using the card. You are seeing those purchases. You are, you feel the burden of it, no matter how little. And so something I like to do with my clients is really say, okay, let's forget about this debt. We want to pay off just for a minute. And let's really commit to living for the next few months without using debt, without using our credit cards, without adding to it whatsoever. Even if you're paying it all off every month, how can we build up that faith in ourselves build up that evidence that we can live month over month without debt. Because that truly is what being debt free is that is living a debt free lifestyle when you are no longer using debt. So that is oftentimes something that people miss. They don't put enough energy around. They don't put the effort into that commitment into those habits. And so any effort to actually paying off the debt, just, it feels kind of pointless.
Speaker 3:Wow. I love that. I love so much of what you said. Um, I love the whole idea of committing to something and then celebrating the wins. The small wins. I find that when you celebrate wins, that it is an amazing motivator. Like you said, um, even the tiniest win can make you feel like, oh, I can do this. And then I hadn't really thought about, you know, what? You said, that even if you're paying it off every month, if you're continuing to use it, then you don't feel like you're making any headway. I can see how we don't look at it that way. And the, and how important it is to actually start looking at it that way, which, um, leads me into my next question. What happens when the debt free journey is not approached sustainably?
Speaker 4:Oh, that's a great question. You know, something that one of my coaches has said time, and again, is the way you experienced the journey is the way that you're going to experience the outcome or the result of that journey. And so what that means is let's say you are trying to pay off debt and you really cut out everything in your life. Everything that makes you happy and you are just plugging away every single month saying, you know, we're never going to step foot in a restaurant. We're never gonna, um, you know, we're never going to sign the kids up for an activity. We're not going on any vacation, not even a weekend away, you know, by car, we're not doing anything. All we're allowed to do is pay off this step, that journey, that restriction and that amount of just frustration and focus that that takes is going to, if you even pay off all your debt that way, and not many people do that, you know, that focus that determined. Um, and I, I want to quickly say, you know, focus is really important, no matter what your journey is, but I guess what I'm saying is sort of that focus on only paying off debt and doing it, really doing nothing else. We get to the end and we no longer know how to spend money appropriately. We don't know. And I've had this happen with clients before where they really do almost go too fast. And when they get to the end there, they're scared to spend money on anything they feel as if they don't have a goal to work towards with their money anymore. And they feel very lost. And so I think where we really have to think about sustainability, because number one, we want to enjoy the process. We want to enjoy the journey when you become debt free, your money journey is not over. I mean, debt debt, freedom is a worthy goal. I support the debt free journey, but it is not the last piece. There's, there's, there's more there. There's more after the debt free journey. And if you have not cultivated these habits and behaviors that we've talked about, right, in a way that makes it joyful in a way, in a way where you are making the most important parts of your lives, the priority paying off debt should never be the number one priority. Um, and so a lot of times I'll meet with a couple and they're worried about their marriage. I mean, they're, they're really, their marriages is on the rocks and they just think, uh, or one person might think, right. If we just pay off the debt, if we just pay off the debt, believe me paying off the debt is not the answer. So how are we making sure that we prioritize the marriage, or if we have a child in need, how do we prioritize, you know, our child, if we are really focused on our health right now, because we've had some health scares, my gosh, let's put that debt free journey a bit on hold. Let's focus on the health. Let's focus on healthy habits. Let's focus on living without debt, but we don't necessarily have to attack the debt that is, you know, that we're holding onto right now. If, if there's something else that's more important. So I think the sustainability piece is so key because some people think that you have to just pay it off as quickly as possible. And I'll be honest. I felt that way for a time. Um, this was pre COVID. This was, you know, when I was young and single and didn't have children, I mean, my journey, my circumstances allowed me to just kind of quickly do it, but that is not the answer for every woman. And so sustainability to me means that when we get to the end of the debt-free journey, we're excited about the next step we are feeling good. We are, we're ready to spend money in a healthy way. We have been practicing spending money in a healthy way. And we aren't going to just completely kind of like binge on spending or, you know, w we haven't been so restricted and so sort of scared of spending money that we now have to unravel that and figure out the appropriate ways to behave with money after we pay off the debt. So that's where I see a lack of sustainability, really making the journey not enjoyable. And we might just go right back to where we started, if we're not careful how we approach the journey and how we approach paying off debt.
Speaker 3:Gosh, that is amazing. That whole idea of sustainability and the approach to the debt-free journey. I've never heard of it spoken about this way, but it makes sense. And it actually made me think of healthy eating, like when people decide or when we decide as women that want to change by eating habits, you know, we want to, um, change a lifestyle. A lot of times you see the women, you know, deny themselves everything. I'm just going to go on this diet and I'm going to eat all the healthy stuff that they're telling me to eat. And I'm not, I'm going to stay away from anything that I enjoy any type of food that I enjoy. And they go on this journey and sure enough, you know, maybe they lose the weight that they want to lose and they look how they want to look. And it does last and it doesn't last because it is not enjoyable. Right? And to your point about forgetting how to spend money appropriately, it's the same way forgetting how to eat, right? Because you have denied yourself, all of these things, all of a sudden, you're like, okay, now when you're done with your diet or whatever, how do I eat? How do I sustain it? And for a lot of women, they tend to go backwards, right? Where you put back on all the weight, or you go back to eating all the stuff that you didn't want to eat. And, um, a few years back, I remember I published a blog post about this, where it's about changing your lifestyle. You know, I love bread. I am never going to give up bread, but I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn how to eat bread. You know what I mean? I love cheesecake. It's like the best cake in the world. I'm not going to give up cheesecake, but I'm going to learn how to eat cheesecake, you know? And, uh, just by making those little changes of saying, I still want to enjoy the things that I love, I was able to sustain that lifestyle. So I think this is great. And I'm so excited that we're talking about it this way now, I guess the next question I throw in
Speaker 4:The story in there. May I throw another story in there? I didn't tell you about this. Oh, absolutely. So when, when you w what you just said there reminded me, I can't believe I didn't mention this before, but about eight years ago, I was a competitive bodybuilder. Oh, wow. And I went on, I went on a 12 week journey with food and exercise that I would not wish on any woman. Um, and it was, it was the epitome of what I'm talking about with this unsustainable, what does the unsustainable debt free journey look like? I went on an unsustainable eating and exercise routine, basically to get prepared for the show. And I had an eating disorder after the show. I could not stop putting food in my mouth. I was starving. And it was one of the scariest and most frustrating several weeks, because I had poured all this time and energy and effort and money into a process. And I wasn't taught how to be careful. I wasn't taught how to come away from this. You know, how the, what was the other half of the process, right? How do we, or what to expect? Like nobody told me what to expect. And so when I think about that woman just slogging her way to debt freedom. That's sort of, that is really, the image is like, and now she is she's sick. She doesn't know what to do with her money. She's scared of her money. She's, she's spending her money. Um, and you know, she's not used to having it. It's always had this purpose of paying off the bad debt, pay off the debt, um, again, which is a worthy goal, but it's the way we approach it. And it's the way that we're, we prepare for, you know, how we're gonna, how are we going to feel about money? How do we feel about money right now? How do we feel about money on the debt free journey, and really having those conversations and paying attention to that. So I just thought that was so interesting. He talks about the dieting and, um, you know, you go to extreme and then you just, you know, gain it all right back. I have that exact experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's, I mean, it's very relatable, you know, and it makes sense when you're thinking about money too, and debt. The other thing that you pointed out that really struck me was the idea of prioritization, because you get inundated with this messages that, you know, debt is bad. You have to pay, you have to pay it. So you, you tend to prioritize it before anything else when something else in your life could be going terribly, that's actually more important, but you're not focusing on it because all you tend to hear is like, debt is bad. You need to get rid of it. You, you know, you're drowning in it and all of that stuff. And to me, that really struck me that we do need to prioritize it with everything else that we're doing in our lives.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. And for some people drowning in debt is the most important thing to focus on right now. And I have, but, but there's always there. There's always steps that you can take to make it feel more sustainable. And so, you know, I, I, I do, I do meet sometimes with women who they don't necessarily have a family, they are, you know, they're going on this journey on their own and truly money. Stress is, it is the thing that they want to tackle, starting to pay off this debt. It is the thing, but even putting money towards debt, isn't the priority. It is. How do I, again, start with not using debt? How do I get comfortable putting a plan together for my money for the next month? So that I'm building up that new evidence, that I'm the kind of person who doesn't use debt. And that is what creates the sustainability, because we are building these habits and behaviors that are healthy. And when the debt is gone, someday, we now know how to continue to live appropriately with money so that we don't add to it ever again. Um, and so starting not necessarily with how much money can I put together to throw it debt. It's just, how can I start to create this sense of peace within me that I will not have to rely on debt for the rest of my life. And that is the priority.
Speaker 3:That's fantastic. And a great segue to our last question, which is what are the tangible habits? I think you just mentioned one of them. So what are the tangible habits with tips to help women sustainably get out of it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, I mean, I would not be a good financial coach if I didn't say half a budget. So let me, let me just, you know, let me talk a little bit about what I think that means. Um, you know, something that I like to say is that a budget is freeing. And what I mean by that is a budget is simply a plan. It is a little bit of structure and that structure, that bit of a plan is what frees us, because we are not second guessing ourselves. We are not sitting up in the middle of the night, wondering if the money will be there to pay this bill that's due in a couple of days, it allows us to plan out what needs to happen and have the confidence that the most important things will be taken care of. And again, that's just part of, sort of reducing stress, because we know that the most important things are going to be taken care of. And maybe we'll just have to make some choices about the non-essentials, but a budget does not. It does not take away your resources. I, I feel like a lot of times someone will, or I'll, I'll talk to a client about a budget and they say, well, I don't really want to do a budget because then I'm not going to be able to spend any money. And it's like, well, it's the, you're going to have the exact same amount of money to spend actually, like, I'm not, I'm not going, I'm not taking any of your money away. All I'm asking you to do is to say ahead of time, what you would like to spend your money on. And, you know, I, I haven't yet found a woman who says, gosh, I really am so glad that I spent all that money that I didn't mean to spend on you fill in the blank, you know, Amazon, or, you know, no one says I'm so glad I did that reckless spending that I didn't plan to do. Um, but, but when you create a budget and you know, I want to get a few things on Amazon, or I want to have a little money for me to spend on. Now, we go through the Starbucks drive through, or we go on Amazon and pick something out that we've been wanting to buy. It's been sitting in our cart. Um, and we don't feel that guilt because we planned for it. It's part of the budget, like as part of the plan. And so that's all it is, is how do we just put a plan together ahead of time so that when we make purchases, we've never had that guilty feeling. And I shouldn't say never. I mean, it it's sometimes you still have it, but it's a very different, um, process of sort of emotions when you plan ahead. And I mean, isn't that the truth, you know, we'll put something in our wishlist, right? Or we'll add something to cart and it's something that we actually want. And then you'll turn around and go buy three or four things that you don't actually want. And it was the same amount of money as that thing in the cart that you actually want. I mean, so that's what I'm talking about. Like, if you're going to spend$50 on Amazon, let's make sure it's going towards the thing that you actually want and have those lit up moments and have that, that this is the joyful journey, right? Have experiences every single month where you are buying something or doing something for yourself that feels good. You know, what's in the plan and, oh my gosh, I'm actually paying off debt too at the same time. So it just simplifies and sort through, what's actually important to us. And what do we want to take action on this month without just guessing our way through the month? I love that that's one tip, but that's the first one. That's always the first one. Um, and you know, gosh, I mean, it's like with everything, we just talked about the food and the fitness, when it comes to starting any new set of habits, when you, it comes to starting any new plan, it's so easy for us to say, okay, well, I'll do it on Monday. I'll start on Monday. I'll start next month. Um, you know, it makes sense to probably create a budget for next month, but that doesn't mean you can't start doing something today. So if you're listening to this and you feel like, oh gosh, this money stuff, I really should do something, do something today. And the one thing you might do is just, you know, go on your, open up your bank statement and just see how things are going. See, what did you spend money on the last week? And do you feel good going into the next week? Um, you know, do you, is everything there that you need to pay your bills? Are you, have you had a conversation with your spouse about recently and should you just mention to your spouse, Hey, I think we should have a chat about doing a budget for October. You don't have to have the chat, but just say maybe we should have a chat about doing a budget, just do something a little that takes you, you know, you're taking action because that is going to make you more likely to take another action the next day, or to pick up a book or listen to another podcast, right. Just continue to take little actions until you feel like, okay, this is a plan I want to go on, or this is a process I want to try, but do something today, something little, and that's going to allow you to continue, right. Build some momentum behind this thing. And then, gosh, I mean, the last thing I would say is really, really know that you can do this. Um, you can pay off the debt. You can go on a journey that is suited for you. And that for the most part, this kind of stuff does take time. And so if you're feeling that, that frustration that, well, I'm not, I'm never going to be out of debt or I'm not going to be fast enough. Maybe it's not going to be super fast, but the journey should be more joyful than where you are right now. And so why not start the journey? Why not get started? It is going the habits and behaviors needed to pay off debt to live debt free are what will serve you for the rest of your life with money. And it is absolutely never too early to start and never too late to start. And so, you know, if you feel like, well, next year, or when we get this raise or when we get this next job, like, please, like I said, last time, just take that first action and just have the faith that it is never ever, ever too early or too late to start. And that first step can be as simple as you want it to be, but do something and allow that momentum to start to build for you.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that. That is a great way to come to this close, like start something like any action is better than no action at all. Right. Absolutely. And I really, I love that. Gosh, thank you so much for joining us today. Uh, Katie, absolutely sharing your debt-free journey. I feel like we could go on forever because you have so much, uh, you know, so many insights. It was extremely insightful to me and very helpful to me and I'm sure to our listeners. And so I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 4:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:The listeners want to learn more, how can they get in touch with you?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. So actually a really great next step. Like I said, you know, connect with someone, listen to a podcast. I have a group where I am live in Facebook every single week, doing a training, very similar to this actually. And my group is called the simplified budget. That is a great place to get to know me and connect with me and just learn more about how to go on your own sustainable and joyful debt-free journey. And I also have a resource that could be a great first step on your journey that has to do with ending the, um, relationship with debt and specifically how to break up with your credit cards. So it doesn't have to be credit card specific, but it definitely takes you through steps about how to stop using your credit card, how to end the relationship with debt. And that is again, like one of the most important things you can do on that debt-free journey is to start living without debt in your day-to-day life. So that is a great resource that is available for you as well.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. But I'm glad that you talked about the free resource that you offering our listeners today. So head on over to a Facebook group, got new swim in where I will be posting the link to that guide that Katie talked about right after the show. So you can have, um, access to it. Um, once again, thank you so much for joining us, Katie. It was so great having you
Speaker 4:Thank you to do that. I really appreciate this and would love to chat with you again some time. This was wonderful.
Speaker 3:We have to do it again.
Speaker 1:The idea thought and experience of paying off debt does not have to be stressful for women with the right approach. We can do it both sustainably and joyfully. Start by making a commitment to yourself, to do it, have the faith that you can do it, remind yourself that it takes time. And most importantly, celebrate small wins at every step of your journey. Every woman's journey may be different, but with the right plan and attitude towards that, we can all achieve a debt-free life. So go ahead, have a budget start today and believe that you've got this. That's all for our show today. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast on apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and Pandora. One to continue this conversation connect with our Facebook community at gap use women. As I mentioned earlier in our conversation, I will be posting Katie's free guide on the nine ways to break up with your credit card to the group, right after the show. Also head on over to our blog, guppies.com to discover more resources on financial wellness until next time, stay safe and find the inspiration to live your best life.
Speaker 2:[inaudible].