Finding Humor, Belonging, and Emotional Sobriety with Carly Schwartz

In this episode of Confident Sober Women, Shelby sits down with writer and journalist Carly Schwartz to talk about addiction, emotional sobriety, and the complicated path to recovery.

Carly is a former editor in chief of the San Francisco Examiner and a founding editor of HuffPost San Francisco. Her upcoming memoir, I’ll Try Anything Twice: Misadventures of a Self-Medicated Life, shares the honest and often surprising story of her journey through depression, drug use, and eventually sobriety.

What makes Carly’s story powerful is her ability to talk about difficult experiences with honesty, humor, and perspective. In this conversation, Shelby and Carly explore the deeper emotional work of recovery and the role community plays in healing.

Together they discuss how many women in recovery struggle with belonging, self-criticism, and the belief that their pain is not “bad enough” to count. Carly shares how sobriety helped her move from self-medication and isolation toward connection, emotional healing, and a more grounded life.

In this episode you will hear about:

• Carly’s sobriety journey and the moment she realized her relationship with substances needed to change
 • The connection between depression, addiction, and self-medication
 • Why humor and storytelling can help reduce stigma around mental health and recovery
 • The role of community and belonging in the recovery process
 • Letting go of people pleasing and learning to live authentically

This conversation is a reminder that recovery is not just about stopping alcohol or drugs. It is about rebuilding a relationship with yourself and finding confidence in sobriety.

If you are a sober woman, sober curious, or navigating life after alcohol, this episode offers an honest look at the emotional layers of healing and growth.

About the Host

Shelby John is a licensed therapist and founder of Wholistic Living. Through the Confident Sober Women podcast, she explores sobriety, emotional healing, nervous system health, and personal development for women building lives rooted in clarity, confidence, and true freedom.

Connect with Shelby

Website
 https://shelbyjohn.com

Podcast
 Confident Sober Women

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Well, hey there, sober ladies. Thank you so much for joining me today for the Confident Sober Women Podcast. And today I'm sharing with you a conversation with my friend Carly Schwartz, who is a former editor-in-chief of the San Francisco Examiner and a founding editor of HuffPost San Francisco Bureau. She's an editor and a publisher of a magazine. And now she has a new book coming out in March 2026. It's called I'll Try Anything Twice: Misadventures of a Self-Medicated Life. And I want you guys to go get it because Carly has such an amazing ability to tell her story, and she brings a lot of levity and um just kind of directness and humor, very similar to my style. And I loved that. So we were heading it off quite well in our conversation with lots of kind of inappropriate laughing about things that most people would not find funny, but I think you're gonna really uh understand why. So make sure you grab her book this March 2026 when it comes out, and you can follow her on Instagram. I'll link all that in the show notes below. But she is truly a spokesperson for recovery and uh really storytelling in general. So we really get into a lot of emotional sobriety work, belonging, and community, how important those things are, and how that showed up in her story as well. So grab your big glass of water or your favorite mocktail and join me and Carly for this incredible conversation. Welcome to Confident Sober Women. I'm your host, Shelby John, a licensed therapist and founder of Holistic Living. This is a space for women who are elevating their lives and choosing clarity over chaos, confidence over coping, and real freedom over short-term relief. And we all know that alcohol and drugs were never the glue that was keeping us together. They were just a temporary escape. Together we explore sobriety, mental health, nervous system healing, and personal development. We uncover the truth, heal beneath the surface, and build lives we don't want to escape from. Well, hey there, Carly. Thank you so much for being here today for us with the Confidence Sober Women Podcast. I'm so excited to share you and your story with the audience. So I'm gonna turn the mic over to you, let you share a little bit more about your story, and then we're gonna chat.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Cool. Thank you so much for having me, Shelby. I love to talk openly and candidly about my journey through um addiction and mental health struggles, which all kind of came to light once I uh gave up the drugs and alcohol. Go figure. So I have a memoir coming out that kind of details my recovery adventures uh on March 10th, 2026. And it's called I'll Try Anything Twice: Misadventures of a Self-Medicated Life. Early readers have been describing it as eat prey love, gone horribly wrong because I quit my job, moved to the middle of the jungle to try to find myself, and instead I found myself deeply depressed and suicidal in a moldy tent. And I ended up finding help where I least expected it when I came back home to San Francisco. So the book covers all my different kinds of crazy things I tried to treat the depression in addition to these travel adventures that I was on, um, in addition to a lot on modern communal living. So I hope that the adventurous spirit is captured as much as the sort of mental health and uh sobriety takeaways.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Oh, I'm sure it will be. I love the title. I I love, you know, we chuckle at these things, you know, sitting here today with um, I'm not sure when you got sober, but you know, some length of time. And, you know, when we look back, we can we can make light, you know. And sometimes it seems silly. I don't know if you got sober in the rooms of AA. I know I did, and that was a long time ago. And you know, there was a lot of people laughing about a lot of things that were really horrible, you know, and I'd be like, oh my gosh, why are they laughing? But um, you know, because today we can't, you know, today we get to. We get to laugh, you know, we get to to make light of our own, you know, transgressions, you know, as horrible as sometimes they are. So um that's where the little chuckles come from. And how come we can sit here today and have titles like that, right? And have um descriptions about about our story be so um with so much levity, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Um, I I talk about levity as so important. I mean, I make like kind of like like little side comments about the suicidal ideations I had, and I just kind of drop it into conversation as a way to destigmatize such an uncomfortable topic. Sometimes it makes people really uncomfortable. Sometimes they ask me if I'm okay. The answer is yes, I'm okay. I also just want to make sure people feel okay talking about this because it has been such a forbidden issue. I mean, addiction and mental illness is kind of more in the mainstream, but I think suicide in particular is still such a scary thing for people to broach. And yet when you bring it up, everyone either loves someone who has struggled with these thoughts or has struggled with them themselves. And so I think that there should be more discourse and it should be funny and light when it can be. And um, yeah, to answer your questions, I got sober in 2018 in October, and I did um, I was deeply involved with 12 steps. So one of the things I loved when I first started going to meetings was just how there was no bullshitting. It was like cut to the chase, let's talk about our trauma, let's be funny about it. There was no small talk, and it was like the best party in town, as far as I'm concerned, because it wasn't, you know, dumb light small talk. It was let's learn who we really are without any of the niceties.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think that the the levity is so critical. I know for me, like um humor and I guess sarcasm is a coping skill in a lot of ways. And I think that can be very dangerous. Like, you know, as a therapist, we do want to like look at things like that, like, oh, are you just avoiding something? Or oh, you know, what kind of unhealed trauma do you have? Um, and and maybe, but it also might just be like your way of getting through life because let's face it, life, life for everybody is very uncomfortable, you know, most of the time, you know, we and so where we can bring some some light, you know, and some some humor. Yes, I do think that it's hard for some people, particularly people who do not have the experience level that we do with uh an addiction lifestyle, um, with a mental health history. So they don't they they don't understand how you could be like it's like you know, like, oh, like you shouldn't make fun of that. Um, and it's very serious. And I would never want to take the seriousness away, but I do think that, you know, when we can be funny, humor can be a wonderful tool because a smiling and also laughing is really good for your nervous system, you know, like that is something that's going to destimulate your parasympathetic nervous system and bring down the activation in your body. You know, when they said things in meetings like, you know, I like they I love when the old timers would talk about like what do you say when people are like, oh, like here's why why aren't you drinking or like have this, whatever? And they would say things like, you know, oh I would, but um, I'd probably break out in handcuffs, you know. And I'm like, like to me, I'm just like, that is that's hilarious. I'm sorry. It just it just is.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, yeah. You hear about turning tricks on the street, you hear about being on the fridge. I'm like, let's go, let's laugh. Nowadays, I mean, I I think my core value is that if you don't make ample space for laughter, levity, joy, music, I mean, we don't have a fighting chance as a species, otherwise, whether you're sober or not.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

You're so right. And with all the just um kind of ang, I feel like everybody's very angry. You know, I know you live in California, right? And so I don't know what it's like out there. I'm across the country in Maryland, and you know, it's just very angry, you know, intense and like, you know, and I kind of just feel like that is just so not how we need to live. Like, yes, we can take things and be, you know, that we want to march for, and we can be very passionate about um a lot of things, but we also don't need to be at any like huge level of seriousness. I love the people I'm seeing now, I don't know about you, who are making reels about um, I see this one guy sometimes and he'll say things like, you know, I I don't I don't care about this, or I don't care that this is happening, or I don't care about this. And you know, you first you're kind of like, damn, like he but what he's saying is is I I don't because I there's nothing I can do about it. Like it's probably still gonna keep happening if little old me takes a stand on Facebook or if I you know speak out or show up at a I don't know, protest or something. I don't know, like that thing is still gonna go on. And so like I'm just gonna worry about like or or care about, you know, like my family or like my job, doing my job really well, you know, or or showing up and making shelf I feed myself properly, you know, and I'm like, I think he's on to something there.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, self-care comes first. I mean, there's definitely a certain helplessness right now, and I have my own opinions about armchair activism on social media. I think how you show up in your own community is so much more important than resharing certain memes, but you know, everyone's coping the way they can. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

And you know, that's true, and it's okay. It's okay. And my way isn't the best way, and yours isn't either, and that's fine. Like, I and I'm fine with that. I don't if you don't like my way, that's totally cool too. I'm I'm fine with that. I get it. You know, we're not for everybody, and that's like such an emotionally sober thing to say and to feel and believe is like I'm not for everybody, and I know that that is a big part of my story for sure. Like realizing, especially in my younger years, that like trying so hard to be friends with these these girls, you know, the beautiful people at my gym and the ones with the kids that had perfect clothes and the lipstick and the matching stuff. And I just wanted so badly to be, you know, their friend, and like they didn't want me. They didn't want me to be their like they just didn't really want me that badly in their group. And so I finally, finally like had like a moment of clarity, right? And I was like, they're for someone else, you know? They're not bad people, there's not for me, and that was okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

That's actually my New Year's resolution is to be less of a people pleaser because at age 40, I still struggle with it. I still want everyone to like me. I think that releasing a book is sort of a um like a double diamond version of a grand shove into learning how to not be a people pleaser because not everyone's gonna like the book. I got my first review that was not, you know, fully gushing recently. And it's like, all right, gotta brush it off. You know, this if I help one person, then then it's worth it, even if I'm not for everyone. And that's, you know, it's a lot easier said than done, but it's a lifelong practice. And I think emotional sobriety is a really strong way of putting it is, you know, whether it you don't have to be everyone's favorite person in order to live according to your own truth.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah, and I was told a long time ago, and something I cling to and say very, very often in my practice that other people's opinion about us are none none of our business. And I heard that and did not understand it for a long time. And I frankly was a little bit like uh upset by that. Like, what do you mean? But I'm like, it makes perfect sense. Like, we're gonna talk about other people in our life too. Like, I talk about my friends or my family or my kid or whatever, and like you do too. And like, it doesn't mean that we're bad or not, but like there, my opinion about you is really none of your business. Like, you have to go about your life and do your thing that's good for you. Um, but the people pleasing stuff gets so much better in this dick this decade for you. Like, I mean, in my opinion, uh great, can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

It seems like everything gets better the older you get. Nobody tells you this because this because our culture is so obsessed with youth and botox and remaining looking young. And yeah, the older I get, the better it's gotten. Like, bar none. I do not look back on my teenage years wistfully and fondly for the good old days. I have been looking forward because it's ever since getting sober, especially. It's like yeah, the the wisdom accumulation, it just gets better and better and better. So thank you for saying that. I'm looking forward to no longer people pleasing.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Well, I'm 10 years ahead of you, and it was definitely at 40, 38-ish when I was like, huh, I really just don't care what people think anymore. And I just got better in my 40s, and then now I'm just like, damn, I have arrived. So, anyway, um, back to your story, I'd love for you to just share maybe like a little bit of kind of like kind of maybe you don't have to get into a whole drunkalog or whatever, what it was like, but kind of like what happened, you know, like kind of how did you land in um towards the end of your drinking and like decide to become a sober person? And and then what did you do and and how'd you get here?

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Totally. It's so funny to say not a long drunkalogue because I remember my first share. It's the the meeting had a policy that you had to be at least six months. And on my six month anniversary, I did a share, and it was like 20 minutes of rambling about all of my shenanigans until the time was up and I hadn't even gotten to getting sober yet. So I will I will do my best not to take your listeners through a very boring account of me being a hot mess. Um, but kind of in broad strokes, I think for me, depression and addiction always went hand in hand. I drank and used drugs. Um I actually did more drugs more than drinking was my problem. Um, and I did that to escape hating myself, basically. It's kind of a tale as old as time in sobriety communities, but really it was depression that had me paralyzed. And, you know, for for parts of my 20s and early 30s, it was livable and other parts it got really, really bad. Um, but I was always looking forward to my next party as a way to escape the sort of hell going on in my mind. And um I've also always been a pretty adventurous person. So this involved like a pretty fast-paced career in journalism and then burnout at age 30, in which I moved first to Mexico, then to Panama. Um, I've always loved sort of communal type environments. I was really into summer camp as a kid. I went to all girls boarding school. I was in a sorority. So, of course, why not join a jungle commune that might or might not have been a cult? And that's where my drug addiction got really, really bad. Um, and so I ended up kind of hitting a version of rock bottom down there and uh moving back to the States. I moved uh to San Francisco, where I live now, and where I was born and where I spent much of the early parts of my adult life. And it still took two years before the sobriety turning point. I mean, I ended up with a job in big tech. I was kind of faking it, um, all kind of working my according to my bare minimum skill set and uh still just miserable inside and still partying as much as I could to escape from that. And so I think it took me so long to get sober because two reasons. One, I never considered myself an addict because my behavior did not look like the way we portray addicts in our society. I was not, you know, using needles, I was not hiding liquor bottles under the sink, I was just partying really hard on the weekends. And I considered myself like a fun party girl, even though I wasn't getting any younger. And the problem was uh the aftermath of all of that sort of bender behavior was so much worse than any highs I had while I was, you know, quote unquote enjoying myself. And I think the second reason it took so long was because the denial was so strong. I just did not want to believe that the one thing that was giving me any form of relief was also the one thing that was keeping me from fundamentally getting well for good. And so I think my my turning point rock bottom, if you will, was almost kind of random. It was just like one bend or too many. It was a Sunday afternoon. I was lying in bed. I write about this in my book, just horribly hungover, only wanting to do whippets. I don't know if you know what whippets are. It's like a nitrous oxide hits. It's disgusting. It's like a dumb thing that you know people do in social settings and like the festival scene. And or like if you ever see them sell balloons outside of like a Grateful Dead cover band concert. Um, and I was just doing this alone in my bed, feeling so pathetic. I'm thinking, I don't remember the last time I had a Sunday where I could like go for a walk or get some ice cream or go shopping or see my friends. It's every Sunday as just this horrible languishing in bed full of anxiety and full of self-hate. And I had this fleeting thought that almost seemed like just a random exaggeration. I was like, I need to go to rehab. And then the thought lingered a little bit longer. And then I went to see my therapist on Monday, to whom I had been lying profusely about any of my partying behavior. You know, I dropped in that I drank sometimes, but I think the more I lied to her about it, the more I withheld information from her, the more I believed myself that I didn't have a problem. I wonder if you see that in your own therapy practice. And so I just let it all come gushing out and was like, this is, and and then I said, but you know, I'm not an addict, so it's not like I need rehab or anything. And she was the one who told me this sort of revelatory truth that addiction doesn't have to look like how you see it in the movies. Addiction can be an inability to stop a bender. Addiction can be you drink once a month, but it's extremely problematic. Addiction can be you repeat these cycles that that hold you in your in your mental illness. And she said, what I think you need is a full life intervention. So I ended up enrolling in residential rehab. I kind of thought of it as yet another thing because I had tried so many things at that point to treat my depression that didn't work. So I'm like, yeah, I'll go to rehab. I guess I'll maybe I'll learn how to be more manageable with my drinking. You know, I'll cut out the hard drugs. I'll never give up weed. Weed is a creativity tool. And it was just astounding, like a week or so into rehab, feeling good without drugs and alcohol. It was like a feeling I had never experienced before. And and the sense of community was really strong there. It was really amazing being surrounded by folks who really understood my struggles. And I think I didn't even leave rehab with the intention of necessarily staying clean. I think I left rehab with the intention of, oh, I don't want to mess this up. I want to keep feeling good. And so it's more like what they say about one day at a time is just so true. It's like I wake up every morning and make a conscious decision to keep feeling good. And it's worked so far. I mean, seven and a half years later, it's it's worked. Um, and and I've had, you know, sadness, of course. And I've had, you know, moments of feeling adjacent to those depression type feelings. But I think sobriety is enough of a foundation that I that I am able to utilize the other tools that I wasn't utilizing before in terms of therapy, in terms of self-care, in terms of community. And so it's just been such a gift. It's like a giant sigh of relief and and truly just a privilege to experience life from this vantage point. I I genuinely never thought I would. I didn't know it was possible.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Hey, it's me, Shelby. Have you ever wondered what's really happening in your brain during recovery? Are you ready to take control of your anxiety, sleep better, and finally feel focused and confident? I want to introduce you to a game changer that's transforming women's recovery. Remote neurofeedback therapy. I want you to think of this as a personal trainer for your brain. It's helping you build new neuropathways right from the comfort of your own home. So if you're dealing with anxiety that just won't quit, if you have ADHD that's making life chaotic, or sleep issues that leave you exhausted, neurofeedback could be your missing piece. It's science-backed brain training that works with your natural healing process, helping you regulate emotions and build lasting confidence. The best part is you don't need to add another appointment to your busy schedule. My remote neurofeedback program brings professional guidance and support right to your living room. Do you want to learn more about neurofeedback therapy? You can go to my website, www.shelbyjohn.com, to download my free guide. Is neurofeedback right for you? Together, we'll create the calm, confident future you that you deserve. That's www.shelbyjohn.com. Take the first step towards training your brain for lasting change. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing all that and being so transparent and honest, right? I mean, that's how it works when we show up and and then share so honestly about our stories with the world. Um it makes a big impact, right? We remind ourselves kind of where we came from, not to wallow or to toot our own horn or you know, any of that, but to remember it's important to remember where we came from and then also to just kind of I think relish in the journey, right? In the process, being able to look through and be like, wow, you know, there are parts that are kind of messy and and yucky in the middle and stuff, but there are many things that are just so great and so much joy and so much change. Um, when we when we look back on that, it gives us the opportunity to do that. And um that's why it works like that. And so thank you so much. Yeah, I love how you shared um basically what I thought about when you were sharing uh earlier on was you know, um, the drugs not call were the glue that were keeping you together. You know, like that's the words that I heard, you know, when I was um when I was young too. And and I related to that. I was like, I knew I had problems, I went to the therapist, I lied, we never really talked. About it, never even asked me, really. I don't think that much. And then it was real surprised by my husband when my husband called and said she's in the hospital because she tried to kill herself. And he was like, Oh, what happened? Like, what? Uh, yeah, because you don't tell your therapist the truth, you know, it's really hard to get better. Um, but I thought I knew it was crazy, but I just didn't think alcohol had anything to do with it. Right. I didn't want to believe it, of course. I thought it was the glue that was keeping me together, and it's so interesting how that is such a common theme from people when you talk to them who are like newcomers or whatever. Um, and also just the you know, that that concept around um I guess it's stigma or just perception about what we think addiction is. Yes, we think it looks like the guy with the brown paper bag under the thing under the you know highway or the addict doing the lean, you know, on those videos from Philadelphia or whatever, or like, you know, um the mom, you know, taking pills in her closet, you know. I mean, there's and like all of those things are can be true, and that's fine, but there's a lot of ways it shows up. And I was told early on too by a very wise person in my when I was in rehab that said, you know, if alcohol or drugs are causing problems in your life, then it's a problem. Right. And I was like, oh, because like normal drinkers don't end up in rehab.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Right. I was telling someone recently that I almost felt this imposter syndrome around my addiction. Like my rock bottom wasn't low enough to be here. And then I tell people my rock bottom story, and they're like, oh, it sounds like you were really suffering. And so to almost accept the fact that I was suffering, that my life caused me a lot of pain, and that I deserved to be well, like that was a whole other piece of it. Cause you know, I come from a pretty privileged background. I haven't had, you know, many external struggles in my life. It all came from within this sort of my own mind was my enemy, and and it was a really, really cruel existence to live with. But I was almost unwilling to accept that that that was real pain, if that makes sense. And and then meeting every everyone else who's struggled, like me. It's like, yeah, nobody deserves to go through life with their own mind being their greatest enemy, with their own mind just abusing them day in and day out, reminding them why they're not good enough.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

You're so right, nobody does. And like, yeah, we can convince ourselves, right? And then go down the down the line further, down the line, down the line, where we're like, oh, you know, I'm actually fine. You know, it's fine, I can still do this, or I'm still doing that, or I'm not as bad as this person, you know. And so yeah, we get that imposter syndrome of like, oh, it wasn't that bad. I remember when I got sober and my and I said to my sponsor, Well, I don't really have much on my my list, you know, like my my force. And I was like, Oh, yeah, mine's like pulling teeth. I was like, and she's like, Okay, she's like, that's fine, but like what what you have is kind of a lot, right? Kind of a big deal. And it's just like, oh, okay. And that helped, you know, because you're like, okay, it doesn't have to look like somebody else, but we could easily get there too, right? You know, like there's a big book story that says, you know, like I stopped in time, you know, because like how bad did we want it to get?

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

So very quickly, you could be like, oh, well, now you do have, you know, a DUI, or oops, now you do have you lost your job, you know. So you just keep going and then you'll end up in those places. But um, it's easy to compare out, yeah. Yeah, oh yeah. It's the feelings that we have to stick to, you know. I I always tell people you got to get in those rooms and listen to the feelings, you know. It might be all old men in there, you know, you're the only woman, and you could just, but you can hear desperation, you know, you can hear pain and you can be like, oh, I know what that feels like.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Right, right. When I teach storytelling workshops, I talk about how most stories are universal. It's the details of the plot that are different. And I have loved being in those rooms because it's been this universal sort of community, this universal um shared form of existence and and almost companionship with folks who I never could have imagined I would have things in common with. And I think, yeah, even if our details are different, our stories are pretty universal.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

You just made me think about because we talked a little bit before we got on about community and belonging. And obviously that is, or maybe it's not obvious, but it is a definite factor for people who struggle with mental health in general and or addiction, whatever your thing is, a lot of that is gonna come from kind of a lack of belonging to something, whether it's you know, a part of your family or in your community or um at your job, like where you don't really feel connected to anything. I don't fit in or I don't, I don't, I don't belong anywhere. And I think that's a that is an uh to me, I feel like that's a universal feeling for people who struggle with mental health and addiction, either or or both. But but also at the same time, while I was listening to you share about like the jungle and other spaces, you know, that community um and uh belonging peace can come from places that aren't good for you. So they're not always good, I guess. I mean, but but it's good at the time, like you're like, oh yeah, I fit in here, like these people want me. Like, oh yeah, you're hanging out with a bunch of uh drug addicts in the trap house, but like they that, but you belong there. But so the feeling of like connection with humans, and I don't know, I just had this like strong feeling about like how that is still that's it's not always oh, we belong and we feel yes, but like it can still be a hurtful experience. I don't know if you can relate to that.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Big time. I mean, how many best friends for 24 hours have you made on a vendor that you never see again? And the only thing you have in common is searching for more drugs and pounding the night until it turns into daytime again. I mean, that was so much of my partying is these like fleeting flimsy connections. I think what's interesting for me is that I felt so isolated in my self-hate and I felt like I couldn't bond with anyone else who really understood my pain, but on the outside, my belonging looked almost enviable. I mean, I came of age pretty socially adept. I was always, I was like a ringleader in elementary school. I I mentioned summer camp and um and my my my high school experience was really close knit and same with college. And even, you know, I I kind of always had friends and never believed I had friends, if that makes sense. I had two loving parents. I mean, it's it's really nuts that that really it was my mind isolating me from all those people. And I think one of the best gifts of getting sober was that I'm finally able to cash in on all these incredible relationships I've spent my entire life cultivating. And now it's like, oh, I act, these are real. I get to enjoy them. It's not, it was so funny how my brain would always tell me I was all alone, I had no friends, but I'd be sitting in a room full of friends who loved me. And it wasn't even, you know, flimsy friendships. It was just, I would not allow myself to believe it, and I would not allow myself to be be kind of authentically loved by these people. And I think forming these real bonds in recovery with other folks who have struggled, like me, has allowed me to strengthen my bonds with other folks who are not in that world, who didn't really understand my depression and my pain, if that makes sense. I've never really phrased it that way, but but it it's it's a fun realization to come to you right now as I'm talking to you. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yeah, you're welcome. And I think it's um really important and kind of home, like it drives home the point that we were making before about how there isn't you the the the need isn't about sameness, you know, like I'm you know, we're women or we're the same age or we come from the same background or we're the same, you know, it's not it's the need isn't in that. It is in it's really in a feeling state, which is I mean, it's not hard for me to talk about. Um but like it's a hard thing for uh like I think regular people who maybe aren't mental health professionals to talk about because it's uncomfortable and then um it might be just really new, or maybe it wasn't really something that was available to them, you know, or it wasn't accessible to them, or it was shut down, you know, like maybe when they were growing up or something. And so to allow yourself to be in spaces where really maybe potentially everybody is very different, you know, in the room, yet you have this one commonality. I mean, this is why support groups work, right? Like if you have a chronic illness, you know, and you're really struggling, and like you go to a support group. I mean, that's essentially what 12-step is or any recovery group, like where people have this thing in common, they may not have anything else in common, but you can all relate to the feeling state of this thing. And so I think what you just said drives home that point and why it's kind of critical to find that, because you said, you know, even when you're sitting in a room full of people who do deeply love you, but like the internal state of yourself and like your view of yourself as an individual, of like, you know, being being not good enough or just you know, stupid or whatever, you know, not thin enough, not pretty enough, whatever else, um, can like really literally remove you from the room, you know, um, and how you can feel lonely in spaces full of people who love you, and how you are not able to receive any of that um positivity.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Um I was alone in my head for many, many, many years. People would be like, Harley, where'd you go? And it was so clear I was zoning out and ruminating, and yeah, not not a fun, not a fun habit.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

And so over the last few years, you know, kind of in this last, you know, couple years of recovery work, because we're never really done, right? We don't, we never arrive. We're always a work in progress, kind of working on our own personal development and mental health and social development, all of the things. Um, what has been like the thing for you? Like, what has been the go-to strategy to kind of take because you know, there's some definite markers, or at least they say, you know, in sobriety. You know, there's like that first five years, definitely like 10. Um, and then I was I was having having a conversation with another woman, I think it was last week, and um, she's actually a little bit more sober than me. She was coming up on like 30 years, I think, and she was talking about like the concept of long-term recovery, which is funny because I always wondered like, what does that really mean? Like, when is long-term recovery? But she was saying like that 15 to 20 year mark is so dramatically different. Um, and then the way our conversation went and the kind of the things that we were both sharing about that really made sense to me. And I was like, oh, okay. It's like a long-term recovery thing. And I'm like, oh, so anyway, there are some definite kind of like markers around, you know, through that process. I'm kind of curious over the last few years, like, what's been the go-to strategy for you or like the tool or the thing that's really working?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

That's a great question because I have admittedly drifted from the 12-step world. Um, I'm not one of those people who quote unquote needs several meetings or even one meeting a week to stay sober. I don't consider myself dry either. I do think I have a really active spiritual sober practice that just isn't necessarily adhering to the rules that are, that our forefathers invented in the 1930s. Um But I think as you nobody's ever asked me that before. And I was thinking as you, as you asked me that, I think maintaining radical honesty and self-awareness, but then sharing that externally with my community, which in turn strengthens the authenticity of my community. Um, you know, I don't shove down feelings of sadness, I don't shove down feelings of anger. I really let myself feel them and try to understand them and talk about them. And if I'm feeling, you know, if I can't get out of bed for a day, I let people know. Um, it was really interesting as I started embarking on promoting this book. I started having these really strong relapse dreams. And I have not had a relapse dream in years. And they all looked the same. It wasn't that I went, I fell off the wagon and went on a bender and went crazy. It was that I just started quietly like drinking a little bit and then telling myself that I wasn't drinking and telling everyone around me that I wasn't and that it didn't count. And I'd wake up in this cold sweat being like, oh my gosh, I'm a fraud. And and alongside that, I had my first alcohol craving in like six or seven years. And it was at a dinner party that a friend was hosting where people were drinking wine and really enjoying themselves. And, you know, since getting clean, I've never really craved it because I've the feeling good has so outweighed any of my past behaviors that I that it's like almost like a moot point. And I was just like, damn, I really wish I could have a glass of wine right now. I started to get angry. I was like, this is so unfair that all these people can have a blast. And I am the only one drinking sparkling water while they're tasting all these wines, you know, enjoying their night, laughing, loosening up. And so what I did was I texted, you know, five different alcoholics I knew in my phone and was like, I'm craving booze for the first time and said, This is so strange, so humbling to know that there is no cure, you know, it's a lifelong practice. And so, and I told my friend who had thrown the party, and she's like, No questions asked, take my car keys, go home, because I was visiting her in another city. And and I think that, and then I knew I needed to go to a meeting. So I went to a meeting, and and I went to a meeting in a in a town across, I live in San Francisco. I went to a meeting in Oakland because I didn't want to see anyone I knew. I just wanted to share about this whole experience. And the relapse dream stopped after that, but it was a really humbling reminder of like, this is not something that just gets better and goes away. And I think if I didn't have that community and I didn't have that radical honesty and self-awareness of, hey, these are some alarm bells going off. This is not, this is not a good thing to be thinking. Um, then I wonder, you know, if it if it could have gotten much worse. And so I I also really, you know, I maintain that with my therapist, who I still see, same one who helped me get sober to begin with. Um, and I just try to know when I really need to plug into that world. And I I try to really accept all versions of my feelings. I think I say that my feelings and sobriety are like technicolor because even the sadness was numbed when I was, you know, partying hard. And and now I feel the sadness as for what it really is. Um, and that's a gift too, you know, the full spectrum of emotions um is a gift. So yeah, if that makes sense as a tool, if that counts, then that's that's the tool I'm gonna pick to share.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Absolutely makes sense. And I'm so thankful that you did say it exactly that way because um what I heard you say too was um that you focus on radical honesty, which is incredibly powerful. Um, nobody really likes doing that. It's not like we're like, oh, we love digging deep and asking ourselves good questions. What are we afraid of? And like, why is this bothering me? Nobody really likes to do that, okay? Like, that's not the point of it. But the point of it is is to keep yourself accountable to yourself, like because no one else is gonna do it. Like no one else is in your head, right? So the dreams were like, you know, and I'm not, you know, whatever. Like, I'm not a scientist or I'm not gonna existentialize it or whatever, but like they were a signal, they were a signal to you, and whatever that, whatever that reason was that it came in that way, that's the way it chose to come to you. Like, hey, um, I just wanted to let you know, like, hey, you need to look at this, you know. Um, and also I think being able to name those emotions and like and like actually allow yourself to feel them and experience it is extremely important too. And again, lots of people do not like who wants to be like, I feel sad and angry, like who likes that? Most people don't. Um, and I mean, I'm so glad that you share that, and I've shared this story many times too, but but when I was 10 years sober, I was still very heavily involved and like and I was celebrating my anniversary, and I stood in the front of that room and I was pissed. I was pissed that I was still having to do this. Why am I still doing this? And it's still like this, and it's still hard. And I was like, damn, that is like that's like actually not how smooth, but I remember it so well and thinking like that's just where I was at that time. But I think actually it's like it's a huge amount of growth, right? To be able to get to that place to say, like, yeah, this life is hard. You know, I was doing a lot of things. I had a lot of kids, I was running around, I was trying to do the things, and it's takes a lot of energy. And like, I couldn't do the I couldn't use alcohol as my tool. And you're right, everybody else was doing that, you know, and I had to come up with other ways, and it was annoying. Um, but I think that being able to verbalize that and own it and say, like, that's what I was feeling and not be ashamed of it, you know, not be able to just because you're standing in a room with other alcoholics or in your therapist office or wherever, be able to say, Yeah, I'm really pissed off at you, you know, I don't like it when you tell me the truth or you know, whatever it is that's coming up. And so I really, really, really appreciate you being able to verbalize that here because I know a lot of other people know what that is. Like it's true, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah, I mean, the shame is real, and and that's and it still comes up. I mean, it it how it minimizes when you mention it, but you know what's been really fun in sobriety is is facing all my other issues that I haven't resolved yet with an you know, with a much more honest disposition. It's like sometimes I forget, you know, and I'm just walking through my life like all hoity-toity, like I fixed my depression, it's over. And then something that has been a really, really, really bad tendency since I was really, really young comes rearing its head back, like choosing the wrong man is the perfect example. My really bad, you know, dating judgment. And and it's like, man, this is not solved. This is a lifelong thing. Um, and this is just my addiction showing up in other ways. And and, you know, maybe I'm not better, maybe I'm not different, but maybe I'm better at accepting it, and maybe I'm better at holding space for it, and maybe I'm better at walking away from bad situations, even if I haven't figured out how to prevent those situations from happening in the first place, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

No, totally. I mean, I always say too, and um, I just said it to a client this morning like what we're looking for in change, and I think you are better. What we're looking for is um um our and to measure progress is that the frequency and the duration of things is less. So that the incidents or the situations are happening less often, and the length of time that they last is less. So when we can look back and say, oh wow, it's been like six months since I've like done that, or it's been two years since I, you know, allowed that kind of behavior, you know, like so. We're not we we we have to mark our progress and be able to say, like, no, actually, that's way better, you know, when this used to be happening every week, you know. Um, but we're the last to know, you know, so we have to rely on other people saying to us, you seem really different, or wow, like I've noticed you're really, you know, you're really much more peaceful, or you're smiling a lot, or like and the and the humility that comes from having like an alcohol craving is insane. And actually, it's a real blessing. You mentioned the spiritual program before, and I I'm glad that you did because I do think those are like the spiritual awakenings that we get to have today. We get to have that um when we are open-minded to it. I have a client I've been working with for a super long time, very chronic relapser, decades long, chronic relapse, very painful to watch. I actually had a hard time last year. I was almost like, I I don't, I don't really know. I kind of got to the end where I've never even really I've never had to like refer someone out or like and you know, I I but I was to the point where I was starting to feel like I don't, I there's just nothing else I can say. I said to him when he came in at the end, he was really defeated, and he had gotten like a legal had a legal situation. And um I we sat here and we just like looked at each other and I was like, I don't I don't have anything else to say. And he's like, I know I he knew like there was like the communication between us was basically like we've all we've done it all, right? And so, but now he he does he has react together kind of a little bit of time, more than he's ever had, a few months or whatever, and um just came in last week and was experiencing, you know, like a lot of that anxiety he was having before. He was like, Oh my gosh, I don't understand what's going like what's going on, and blah, blah, blah. And so we talked about it a little bit. And you know, it doesn't take long. You just ask some of the right questions and you know, kind of dig in a little. And and quickly we learn, well, um, because I was like, well, what's different? You know, like what's different now? Um, what were you doing before that was working or helping with that? And what's different? And quickly you can discover the things that have changed, you know. Uh well, you know, I you know, I was praying every morning. Um, and that's what I was I was just getting up and I was just doing that every day, but you know, it's been a while since I've done that. And I was like, oh that's interesting. Okay, you know, and there was like something, and I'm like, I I feel like you've kind of just like highlighted the solution, right? Like so the humility that came to him from having this kind of like same feelings from before uh was extremely scary, and um, and I'm glad, but then also was able to lead him back to the path that you need to be on. It's just like a reminder of like, you don't get to just, and it's not even just like about drinking or anything, it's about anything, right? You don't get to just step off the path that was working and expect that you're just gonna carry on. The humility comes when you realize, oh no, this is like um an everyday kind of the rest of your life walk, right? When you have to think about the partners you choose and who do you engage with and like what kind of engagement do you have? And I'm just making this up. I don't know. But like, you know, you you have to decide that. You know, and if you slip back and you start talking in a way that you normally used to talk, and then you start getting the same kind of results you used to get. And then you're like, oh crap, you know, that's where that humility like brings you to your knees and like, oh, actually, no, I have to do this every day. You know, I have to do this.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Yeah. I mean, one of the things I love about the rooms, the 12-step rooms, is that they're always available. And it's like my tried and true old friend. So even if it's been a year, I can go in, everyone will clap for me, I can say the worst things I've ever done, everyone will clap for me, I'll get a standing ovation. And it's like, um, it's it's just really nice to speak that language and to be able to drop in and sort of use it in a way that works for me, even if I'm not necessarily doing it the way that others who talk about their own program are doing it. And I think another thing that I thought of while you were talking just now is um I think in the past, when I would repeat my mistakes or when I would see behaviors come through that I had worked so hard on that were just still there, I would focus on this sort of shame spiral of like, oh no, I'm always this, I'm always that. And one thing that's shifted for me in sobriety is giving myself credit for those incremental changes. So, like, maybe I still choose a bad relationship, but this time I walk away in two months instead of two years. And that to me is so much more worth focusing on than like while I'm still doing this, you know, choosing the wrong people thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

That's exactly what I meant by that with the frequency and duration. Sure. Are we human? Yes. Are we gonna eat the ice cream sometimes when we said we weren't gonna eat ice cream anymore? Yeah, we're gonna mess up, but it doesn't mean we derail our whole lives and you're like, oh, well, now I'm just gonna eat ice cream every single day. Right. You just step back in, you know, okay. Well, tomorrow I'm not gonna eat ice cream, you know, like that's exactly what I meant. Like, you know, you realize, oh, I only lasted for two months this time. What an amazing opportunity. You, you, the frequency and duration were less. Um, I used to say, I say, I'm the mistake maker in our family. You know, I'm the one that always like, you know, scratches up my car, crashes, gets tickets, you know, forgets stuff, you know, like that's me. My husband is perfect, and I'm the mistake maker. And so I would do um in my younger years for many, many decades, frankly, in in that state, I was very unwell and um focused constantly on the negative parts, right? I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not, oh, I'm I'm this, I'm that. And um, it took a lot of undoing, rewiring to get to that space to be able to say, you know, um, yeah, I did forget that such and such, the picture form for preschool. But I did like a hundred things really well today. You know, here's a thousand things that I did well, and I just didn't do this one thing.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Isn't it crazy how your brain can just choose to appreciate yourself or not based on whatever input you decide to focus on?

SPEAKER_02 46:58

Right. And that's not rocket science, that's actually very simple, but it's amazing how long for me anyway, it took me to get to the space to be able to even do that. And now I can do it just all the time, regular.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

And it's like fully requiring to be able to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Well, thank you so much, uh Carly, for your time and for your book and for your story. Um, I'd love to hear where you like people to reach out, like if people want to get a hold of you or or find you, where do you want them to do that?

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah, absolutely. Um, they can reach me on Instagram at Carly Cita, C-A-R-L-I-C-I-T-A. Thank you, former AOL Instant Messenger name, which is now an Instagram name. And also my website, Carly.in K, like Carly Inc., um, has my book, has my workshops, has some writing, coaching, consulting opportunities. So um hopefully all the good stuff is there. And you can email me directly through the website as well.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Okay, wonderful. I'll make sure that's all linked below. And again, thank you so much for your time. And I hope that our paths crawls again soon.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

I love that. It's always such a gift to connect and reflect with someone who actually fully gets it. And I just found myself nodding along through this entire conversation. So thank you for doing this. Thank you for featuring these stories, thank you for helping people the way you do, and you know, using your own experience as a means for good. It's it's just phenomenal to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Thank you so much. This is Shelby John, and thank you for joining me on the Confidence Sober Women podcast, where we have conversations with women building lives rooted in clarity, resilience, and freedom. If today's episode resonated with you, be sure to hit subscribe. And if you would, take a few seconds to leave a review and then share it with a woman you know who really needs to hear it. If you're ready for deeper support through therapy, EMDR intensives, or remote neurofeedback at Holistic Living, you can visit our website at holisticlivingtherapy.com, where we help people rewire their brains for lasting freedom from anxiety, addiction, and trauma. Until next time, uncover the truth, heal beyond the surface, and transform your life. See you next week.