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ChiTuckyBourbonBrothers
The “Chitucky Bourbon Brothers” podcast, hosted by Mike Nielsen and Tony Meyers, serves as a delightful exploration of bourbon and whiskey culture, offering insightful reviews and discussions about various bourbons and whiskeys. The hosts share their passion for sipping “brown water,” a colloquial term for bourbon and whiskey, and aim to blend music with their love for these beverages, creating an engaging auditory experience for listeners. The podcast not only provides detailed reviews of different bourbons and whiskeys but also promotes a relaxed atmosphere where enthusiasts can enjoy the nuances of their favorite drinks alongside music that complements the experience.
ChiTuckyBourbonBrothers
Episode 117 - Four Roses Super Premium
When bourbon crosses borders, something magical happens. Four Roses Super Premium represents a fascinating cultural exchange—a Kentucky distillery crafting something uniquely positioned for Japanese palates. This rare expression, never officially distributed in America, reveals how whiskey adapts to different cultural preferences.
After uncorking this elusive bottle with Japanese lettering, we dive deep into Four Roses' remarkable production methods. Unlike most distilleries, Four Roses meticulously creates ten distinct bourbon recipes using two mash bills (high-corn "E" and high-rye "B") combined with five proprietary yeast strains. Each strain imparts specific characteristics—delicate fruit, rich fruit, spice, floral, or herbal notes—creating a flavor matrix that allows for precisely tailored bourbon expressions.
The Super Premium itself delivers an experience quite different from American bourbon expectations. At 86 proof, it offers gentle vanilla, subtle peach notes, and remarkable drinkability without the robust oak and high-proof heat Americans often seek. This lighter profile likely represents a deliberate adaptation for the Japanese market, where whisky traditions favor more delicate profiles. We speculate that its composition includes 80% eight-year and 20% ten-year bourbon, possibly blending all ten Four Roses recipes into a harmonious whole.
Beyond the whiskey itself, this tasting opens fascinating conversations about international spirits markets. Why do distilleries create market-specific expressions? How do tax structures influence proof points across borders? And most intriguingly—what can we learn about our own preferences by experiencing whiskey designed for different cultural palates?
Whether you're a bourbon enthusiast curious about international expressions or simply someone who appreciates the cultural dimensions of spirits, this exploration of Four Roses Super Premium offers a unique window into how a classic American spirit transforms when crafted with global sensibilities. Join us for this cross-cultural whiskey journey and expand your understanding of what bourbon can be.
doing a great job over there, tony's on the soundboard, just slowly moving into this one, really trying to make it sound great. Who would have ever thought someone would sing about having a heart like a truck? But that's fucking Lainey Wilsonson and she's awesome. I know who she is, she's awesome. I mean, I don't know how many albums. Maybe you looked it up. I don't know how many albums she has now, but she's just selling out the world with you know, she's been actually playing music for a long time.
Speaker 1:They said she's she started I think 2011, well, professionally yeah that's.
Speaker 2:That's a long time now it's 14 years.
Speaker 1:It's been around for a long time she's great, it's probably when she turned 18. That's usually how that works. How old is she? 18 plus 14? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty close. She's born in 92. She's 33. That makes sense, boom Makes sense At 18, she could sign a contract.
Speaker 1:Kind of crazy how you can back into that stuff. And I don't really get into female country music as much, um, but she's kind of the new wave, uh, miranda lambert and some others I mean megan maroney maroney, obviously dolly well, she's not new. I know she's not new, but she's up there. You can't. How do you talk about female country and not talk about Dahlia?
Speaker 2:Oh no, I mean it's been awesome. I mean, one of the best things I think that happened to Lainey Wilson is that when she toured with Morgan Wallen a few years back, he's back on tour again.
Speaker 1:I just didn't go to Camp Randall, University of Wisconsin.
Speaker 2:It's a good thing.
Speaker 1:Did you hear what happened?
Speaker 2:there.
Speaker 1:I heard it happened to who?
Speaker 2:A huge storm came through and they had to evacuate his concert.
Speaker 1:Which day, though? I heard it was Second or second day, it was Saturday, sunday. Saturday, people told me it was fucking so great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was the second day I heard, I don't know. I like him a lot. I just haven't had a chance to see them and I'm jealous you have, yeah and you have.
Speaker 1:You can't like. I mean, you don't talk about country music without talking about, uh, morgan and laney, and you don't talk about whiskey without the two words four roses, oh yeah. So we've done four roses in the past we have a few of them few Small batch, small batch, select all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Some of the words we'll get into Barrel string. I don't know what Tony was doing, but this has like Japanese lettering on it and it's called Four Roses Super Premium, yeah, which is kind of like huh, and it's cool. It's got a big old Four Roses emblem on it Standard, kind of like wine wine looking bottle, uh, and I'm like, what is this? And then we started researching it.
Speaker 2:And then we started researching you know why I had to bring this from my bunker because you gave me such a hard time, this one one bottle from the bunker hey, so he's down to one as a start.
Speaker 1:Oh god, colleen, colleen, just bring them up to the kitchen and I'll stop over and grab them.
Speaker 2:Just don't count how many are really down there, it's more than two.
Speaker 1:So Four Roses' super premium is part of their brand that they ship off to Japan and Tony and I were like, huh, why are they doing that? Yeah, why are we? Because, yeah, why is the owner is japanese correct and we got into it and I'm like I'll let tony go here. But it just gets cooler and cooler. And I just love four roses as a brand because it's not small. It's kind of like medium plus, uh, I don't know what their case capacity is or anything like that, but they're not like the big Heaven Hills or even Bardstown Bourbon Company now with putting out eventually millions of cases. They're kind of like that medium. I like. I like kind of almost everything they do.
Speaker 2:Four roses has got like a crazy backstory because you know they they have been around for a long time. Um, the the biggest craziness of four roses is that I mean so it started around 1910. They got that's when their distillery was actually finished was 1910, so they probably started slightly before that. But it's cool, mike and I actually went to the distillery during an ice storm and it was closed. We were so disappointed. But in kentucky there's so it's so hilly you get a little bit of frozen rain and now the whole town shuts down. And we show up there and there's like a sign that says uh, closed for ice or something and tony was like, oh, it wasn't well, he was sad.
Speaker 1:But then he was like I'm scared. I'm like I'm scared too, man, because it was so. I did not say I'm just kidding, it was so icy, it was so it was like the darkest wettest, we're out there and we show up and we're like, all right, get out the car.
Speaker 2:Why is nobody else here?
Speaker 1:oh, no one else is here and it's the pandemic and it's closed. All right, where are we going next?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's where we had to drive 20 minutes somewhere else. But yeah, no, it's a very Spanish mission-style building. It's kind of cool up on a hill.
Speaker 1:Like a vineyard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually it does look like a vineyard. Anyway, 1910, it was finished, that's when they started.
Speaker 1:By 1950, they were purchased by Seagram's and, and they actually quit distilling, only to start distilling again. What did I say 1995? I can't remember. They just decided to take 45 years off?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because Seagram's owned them and Seagram's was blending all their Canadian stuff and things. They stopped distilling new Kentucky bourbon. Maybe Seagram's didn't need any more. Maybe, I don't know it's mostly Canadian.
Speaker 1:They weren't blending Four Roses into Canadian whiskey? No, they weren't blending Four Roses into Canadian whiskey, no, they just stopped they stopped.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then somewhere between 1995 and 1999, the ownership actually passed from Seagram's to a couple different places Universal to Picard, renekon to Diageo and then in 2002, kerwin Brewery, which is one of the largest brewery companies in Japan.
Speaker 1:Kirin, kirin you never have a Kirin or a Kirin Light K-I-R-I-N.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I don't drink beer.
Speaker 1:No, it's actually Kerwin Kirin. Kirin, you don't eat fish and you definitely don't eat sushi, and when you go to a Japanese restaurant, you always have a Kirin or a Kirin Light. There's another brand that I can't think of right now, but Kirin's a very good beer.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, that's who owns Four Roses.
Speaker 1:Might as well be like the Miller Light of Japan. That's who owns?
Speaker 2:Four Roses and then, yeah, so they came, that's how it started. They started distilling again in 1995, and then all these different expressions. And the thing with Four Roses is they don't have a lot. They have got an 80 proof, uh, four roses, standard bourbon. They've got a one. Four roses, small batch, it's 90 proof. Okay, that's two. They have a single barrel which is their 100 proof. Okay, they have all their barrel selects which we can get into the letters. You know the o there's 10 of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the 10 with the 13, now 13 different brands, and then they have two that they only sell in japan. One's called Four Roses Black it's an 80 proof and the other is called Four Roses Super Premium and some people call it Four Roses Platinum, which is 86 proof, and that's what we have, so we don't remember exactly how I got this Doesn't matter, but I bought it through California.
Speaker 1:What I want to know is how old is this Super Premium? Because I always think, like well, they own it, so they're probably not doing this, but that exports kind of get the lower level stuff or the lower proof or the lower age, because I mean really the cost in whiskey is age.
Speaker 2:It's non-age stated, but everybody speculating says that it's a blend. Of 80% of it is at least eight years old and 20% is 10 years old.
Speaker 1:That's a great amount of years.
Speaker 2:It's a good month, but the mash bill is also undisclosed, and some people think it's a mixture of all 10 of their mash bills. Whoa, that's kind of cool. So I don't know if that's necessarily true or not, but they have 10 mash bills. They have a high corn mash bill and a high rye mash bill. Okay, and then out of those two Guys guys guys, it's really simple Rewind or take a listen.
Speaker 1:This is all. Four Roses is right here. Four Roses comes down to 13 brands minus the two Japan yeah, 10 mash bills. It gets very complicated very quickly, but Tony's going to do this very uncomplicatedly.
Speaker 2:There's four. You need the second letter and the fourth letter. The second letter is either a high rye or a high corn. Okay, e means high corn, b for boy means high rye. That simple.
Speaker 1:Okay, so right off the bat you're. That's five and five.
Speaker 2:Now you're down to five and five different.
Speaker 1:So if you're E, you're like, hey, I like sweet, you go E. And if you're like hey, hey, I like a little spice and some and and that more rye forward, you go b. All right, so now you got two, two buckets, two buckets, so five in it pick yourself either a, b or e, because it's going to get complicated, because there's five more after this so then each of those have the same five, and that's the last letter.
Speaker 2:And there's five letters v, k, o, q and f. Nobody will ever remember all these, but each letter means something that you can look up and, honestly, most of the barrel strengths have a tag right on the neck of the bottle that tells you this. But V means delicious fruit, k is spice, o is rich fruit, q is floral and F is herbal. You'll never remember all of this, but for me and for you, I would prefer to get the high corn. I would go after E. I would probably go after E, q. No, probably E, k or E. O would be my first two to go after. So O would be spice or O. I'm sorry, o is rich fruit and K is spice, e is high corn.
Speaker 1:So I'd probably go or O. I'm sorry, o is rich fruit and K is spice, e is high corn, so I'd probably go high rye B, which is B, and then I would probably go with the heavy fruit, one, probably the rich fruit. So I'd go with B O.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, herbal floral Like they're just like. I got a personality where I needed to kind of like. You got to get in my face and it's got to jump out Like I don't herbal floral. I'm sure I taste those and I'm like, oh my God, what is it? But those are harder. Like we talk about like herbal, like floral is like what am I getting here? And it's like see for me roses and tulips and like like what, what do flowers?
Speaker 2:and like I have a hard time distinguishing like they're light. Yeah, I have a hard time distinguishing between, like, the delicate fruit and the floral. To me those are really close to each other. They're both light, they're both I don't know. I just have a hard time with those personally. So I don't I mean I not to say I wouldn't like those, I just wouldn't gravitate towards those first and we looked up delicate fruit.
Speaker 1:It's like dragon fruit. I think of it as like beach fruit, like fruit I'd eat on a vacation. American fruit is like in your face it's like cherries and watermelon and oranges and like delicate fruit is like you know, just stuff with not a ton of flavor. It's probably actually like better for you, probably low sugar content.
Speaker 2:But yeah, you know what I wonder if that's true, if rich, if the rich fruit has more sugar. That'd be something to look up. I'll write a note on that for for future. But yeah, anyway, that's the long and the short of all these four roses kinds, the what we're tasting right now, which is the four roses super premium. We don't know the mash bill, but we believe it. We know it's one of those tens or a blend of those tens. What I'm reading is that it's a blend of most of those tens, if not all of them.
Speaker 2:Age statement is remarkably good if this is truly eight to ten year juice. Msrp is 50 bucks, but again, it's only in Japan, so it's really hard to get. I don't remember where I got it, but I know I bought it through California and then, other than that, it's just a lot of information. Some people say that the lower proof stuff in Japan has to do with that. The Japanese people just, they don't like the big boomy bourbon, they like a lighter bourbon. So that's why this is lighter, that this has got a lighter proof.
Speaker 1:See what I'm saying, guys. He puts stuff in his bunker. He doesn't even know where he got it. He has stuff that's only shipped off to Japan, but it ends up in his state of Illinois fucking basement. Don't worry about it, I am worried about it. This is like premium kind of stuff that no one is getting access to because you're just hoarding.
Speaker 2:Hoarding. It's a collection.
Speaker 1:Hoarding and collecting are different they are, but there's a fine line right in between the two of them. Okay, I digress on that. Thanks, mom, can we? I thought you were going to swear there. Cheers, let's smell this one.
Speaker 2:Got to make sure I got the right one. Mike's been making some of his own blends over here. You got to make sure you don't grab the wrong one on accident Lighter, lighter and kind of florally. Yeah, for sure I mean it's gentle, it's got like a gentle smell.
Speaker 1:How many times are you going to say gentle? Please don't say it again moist.
Speaker 2:It has a gentle moist no, that's just another one of those words where you're like you cringe when you hear it but the sweet is in there.
Speaker 1:Sweet is in there, but, um, maybe more with those, um, maybe with the lighter fruit. It's not like some orange peel is jumping out. No and for sure not I?
Speaker 2:hmm peach. I actually got a little peach smells great.
Speaker 1:Let's taste it. I can't wait I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's considered a delicate fruit, but peach I would say it's on the spectrum apricots, peach, it's probably.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is initially very light, initially very light. It's making me talk a little lighter. Yeah, um, vanilla like, but the purest version of it's not just like, it's like a rich vanilla, it's richer. Yeah, um, I like the viscosity, do you?
Speaker 2:it's like, um, it's not, it's not sticky at all it's not.
Speaker 1:It's very drinkable, um, and I have no idea what the japanese palate or what what japan prefers, um, just like a real easy japanese whiskey is usually like, kind of like, has the lighter note. So I wonder if they went to your lighter notes, which would have been, um, all the like the.
Speaker 2:So let's go with the high corn to get the sweetness, okay, so e and then maybe the v, which is the delicate fruit, or maybe the q, which is some floral. Yeah, maybe even f, for some herbal in there. Yeah, there's some spice, there's a little bit. Yeah, this is not bad, I mean, I think that. Or maybe it's Q, which is some floral, yeah, maybe even F for some herbal in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's some spice, there's a little bit. Yeah, this is not bad.
Speaker 2:I mean I think that, or maybe it's all of them. Who knows, who knows who cares If Four Roses was trying to, if they were trying to create a whiskey that was like very subtle, very, very like simple-ish almost. Light but it's got a lot there. Yeah, I think they did a pretty good job. I mean, this is this is not for cast strength flavor bomb people like we're usually much more high proof flavor bomb. We like to really get something out of the finish. This is not that.
Speaker 1:This is no finish. This is kind of like I'll go for as far as sucks. It's very short. If anything, it's a little boring. Like I said, I want fruits, I want sweetness, but I also want rye. I want proof. What did you say? The proof is on this 86. 86?.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's not interesting like some of these barrel strength that we have, where you're really trying to get all these flavor bombs with this high proof. This is a very simple bourbon that's a good sipper, and maybe it's the age they did a really good job on this. If this is what they were trying to create, I think that I don't know. I don't know If this is truly 80%, 8-year, 20%, 10 year. This is a. This is very good.
Speaker 1:I think it's exactly what they wanted. I bet they put this next to certain Japanese whiskeys and, um, it just lines up with everything I would think would work with what they were trying to do. Um, and I think it makes sense that they produced one, not one, but two different options to export, and if you don't like this, you'll like this. The other one, I would bet, is a little bit more in your face, a little bit sweeter. You said it was called Black.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the other one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like johnny walker black is like kind of a thing.
Speaker 2:Uh, obviously they have golden, red and whatever, but I think an interesting point is like, especially nowadays when we talk about tariffs and taxes and stuff on alcohol, because I think basically alcohol is taxed on its proof. I think the higher proofs have higher taxes. So I think some of the lower proofs if we're sending it over a lower proof, would obviously be less taxes, which could keep the money down, the cost of it down. And when you start thinking of, like Jim Beam has their white label at 80 proof but that's not what they have here.
Speaker 2:Right, you have Four Roses at 80 and 86 proof, but here it's 90 and higher. You know you go to like blantons blantons has that 80 proof version they sell over in japan here it's 93 and you go to gold and it's 103. It's like I wonder if they water it down a little bit to save some money on tariffs and taxes probably as long as it still fits that kind of and maybe they're floral, that they, yeah, maybe their palette palate is actually better.
Speaker 2:Maybe they like that softer palate because of it. I have no idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh, sip rating shareable sure I don't.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't like tell you it's anything special. Um, it's a cool bottle and I don't know if I'll ever get another one. You probably never see it. It is weird that it's a screw off top. We don't get a lot of screw off top bourbons.
Speaker 1:Um that's another like there's just there's like you go. You go out of the country and certain things are different, like, yeah, anything from like Diet Coke tastes different to like McDonald's tastes different. I'm just trying to come up with something that, like, everyone's had and it's like something about this is just different. It's like I don't know, Like I'm not, I'm not like if I went to Japan and it was like I was really in the mood for a good home pour.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I saw this I'd be'd be like all right, grab the four roses and then get a, get a japanese whiskey and let's try both and whatever, but something's your sums off here.
Speaker 2:No, it's shareable for me. Yeah, I would share it for sure. But I, you know, whatever influence I like four roses, I've always liked four roses. I don't think they have the influence of some of these other brands that have been around forever. Um, nothing negative. I just, you know, for me, I, I I've never like, got, it's never been like ruffles ruff rufflersburg, right, ruff ruffsburg, the? Uh, their distiller, how do you say his name? Um, oh, it's his, the main master distiller. That was there forever.
Speaker 1:Oh, I, I want to say jimmy russell, but you know, but it starts, it does start with an r anyway, I can't remember it.
Speaker 2:But anyway I think he did a really good job with this because he kind of brought it all back.
Speaker 1:I just really love it.
Speaker 2:Rutledge, rutledge, jim Rutledge. He was there for 20 years. He more or less redid Four Roses. He started them back up in 1995. He's the one that came up with these 10 mash bills. All such cool stuff. I think he's awesome. I just don't for me whatever that's a lot of talk on influence to say I'm sideways on influence Price at 50 bucks. At 50 bucks Jesus Sorry, 50 bucks price. If I could get it for 50 bucks I'd buy it all day, but you'd probably double or quadruple that to get it from Japan here.
Speaker 1:Ding, ding, ding, ding ding. We have a record for the longest sip method ever yes, and forgetting Jim Rutledge's name.
Speaker 2:I can't believe I messed that up. It came to me.
Speaker 1:It came to me, it did finally Jeez, sharing it, but I'm not like I'm never going to see it or buy it again because you got to go to Japan to do so.
Speaker 1:So like Sharon is kind of like oh hey, try this and then you should go get it yourself. So not super shareable great influence. I mean four roses, especially since I thought they would have gone back way further with kind of what they are currently, because dorking out the mash bills and the different stuff they put out and uh telling you exactly and hitting it on the right nail on the head with what you're supposed to taste, it just makes our job anyone's job of taste tasting whiskey just so much more fun and so much easier. Um, so a big eye and price. It's just kind of like it's 50 bucks, fine, like I'm not interested in uh like tracking this down or like going out of my way to get it. But let's go all the way back to everything else, for roses falls right in line with this kind of you know what you're gonna get. It's really good and the different price points are perfectly calculated.
Speaker 1:It's like lower four roses, like it's good, and then you pay up for the uh single barrels or when you get into those different uh mash bills and yeast strains, which is like really that's a thing. Uh, yeah, it is, they do it and they.
Speaker 2:It's fucking awesome and no one else does that chemistry.
Speaker 1:No one else does that. So, uh, four roses, big, huge points, uh in my books. But this is like meh, I'm gonna give it, give me a right. Um, I'm gonna give it like a 275. It's just kind of like middle of the road, like huh, like super drinkable. No finish, no proof. No, like delicate, floral, herbal kind of notes, uh, with a little bit of sweetness, it's like it's fine, it's fine no, I get it.
Speaker 2:275 is is where I believe it should be. I would have probably went. I would have probably went just a hair, but I just don't believe it's a three. I was going to say two and seven-eighths, just because I don't think it's a three, but I think it's way better than I anticipated, just way better than I anticipated it. You said somewhere in that three, just slightly under.
Speaker 2:We going out on some Laney Wilson again we are, but we're going gonna do this one with uh probably the one, one of the ones that really got her going with hardy, because I just like this song. Hardy is pretty badass too. He's badass.
Speaker 1:That'd be a fun show to see he uh, he was with, um, uh, morgan wallen when I saw them. Yeah, if you haven't seen morgan wallen, I mean you gotta, of course, like country music, but the crowd is cool and different and it's just such a spectacle. Not that if you went and saw like Foo Fighters or something like that, it wouldn't be like a raging show, but like their shows get real fun. They get pretty drunk. A lot of country music people. Maybe that's why we play country with our whiskey, maybe.
Speaker 2:It just rolls together. They go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:It's like peanut butter and jelly Like a peanut butter and jelly. Mike and Tony, we take care of the whiskey, so you can focus on with whom you share it.
Speaker 2:Little Hardy Laney Wilson. Oh yeah, she hasn't come in yet. It starts with Hardy. He comes here in second.
Speaker 1:He's a pretty big deal too.
Speaker 2:All right guys.
Speaker 1:Cheers, what are you doing this weekend?
Speaker 2:Just kidding I didn't blow off my hand, so it's all good, I'm gonna shoot up some fireworks.
Speaker 1:I burnt my finger On the wick. But again, part of the fun, part of the fun. Alright, see you guys. Bye. I don't know if he's an angel, cause angels don't do what he did. He was helping to find a man.
Speaker 2:Behind all the whiskey scars I hid. I never thought my day of justice would come from a judge under a seat, but I knew, right then I'd never get hit again. When he said to me waiting to talk just waiting to talk.
