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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 17:19 - Offense-Lovers, Door-Raisers, and Karens
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Mishlei 17:19 - Offense-Lovers, Door-Raisers, and Karens
אֹהֵב פֶּשַׁע אֹהֵב מַצָּה מַגְבִּיהַּ פִּתְחוֹ מְבַקֶּשׁ שָׁבֶר:
Length: 1 hour 58 minutes
Synopsis: This evening (3/9/26), in our Monday Night Mishlei shiur, we took up an unusual pasuk that I had never learned before. Despite the weirdness of the pasuk's formlation, we came up with a nice variety of original interpretations, and then learned two completely different explanations from the meforshim - including the first ever "Mishlei: on Karens" from Ralbag! Yet another example of how Shlomo ha'Melech was familiar with OUR world, despite living thousands of years in the past. "That which was is that which will be, and that which was done is that which will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun" (Koheles 1:9).
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מקורות:
משלי יז:יט
משלי טז:יח; כו:ד-ה,יב
מצודת ציון/דוד
הואיל משה
ר' יוסף אבן כספי פירוש ב
רד"ק - ספר המצוות
רלב"ג
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Okay, we're back to Michle. And I don't know, those of you on the uh I guess uh on the East Coast, uh for me every year there's a different feeling at this time of year when we start Michle and it's still kind of light out. It's it feels like we're getting into the last part of the year, but uh uh it is uh you know cycles of time. Okay, so we are up to Mishlay 1719. Ohiv Pesha Ohiv Matza, Magbia Pischo Mavakeheshavar. And as I said in the uh description of the shear, uh, this is not about matza um on Facebook. Um I actually want to just see what the accent is supposed to be on this. It is Ohiv Pesha Ohiv Matza. Magbia Pischo Mavakeh Shabar. Okay, fine. Okay, who wants to try uh translating here? Pesha is a very difficult word to translate, so um we'll there's gonna be multiple iterations of that. And the second half of puzzle goes weird. So anyone want to try? Okay, so one who loves pesha. Okay, so pesha is either transgression, okay, or let's just look in our BDB here.
SPEAKER_04Um is it a crime?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, crime is another good one. Yeah, uh crime. Um I also find offense uh to be good. You know, in biblical in sorry, in rabbinic Hebrew it means negligence. Uh, I don't know if that is a um if that's I I I always forget if that's something that's used in biblical hebrew or not, but I'll say it anyway. Negligence. Uh, but I think probably offense is probably the most um is probably the most all-encompassing one. So let's let's default to translating it as offense. Um, yeah, so one who loves offense loves. Now what about matzah? Yeah, avita or yitsi.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, does it mean fight?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, so um the BDB here translates it as uh strife or contention. Um, I know that as a verb it's only used as fight, um, but I think strife is probably the better um translation here, uh just to keep it generic, uh, or contention actually. Okay. Now this this next part's very weird, okay? And there are there's an even not even split, but there's a split like two clear distinct distinct roads you could take for this one. Magbia pischo nevakesh shaver. Anyone want to try translating that?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeti. I'm going out on a limb here, but one who opens up his entrance is asking for brokenness. Okay, broken.
SPEAKER_10Okay, one who is uh opens his entrance, okay. Uh, or literally, sorry, do you say open or raises?
SPEAKER_08Raises is more uh more literal.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, right. Raises his his opening. Uh I think that's probably the most literal one. Um now here's one thing also that I feel like a lot of people are not aware of, which is that uh Bakesh in biblical Hebrew means to seek, and in lay biblical Hebrew means to request. Okay, um, but as you can see, like most of them are to to seek. Okay, so let's say seeks breaking, and yeah, uh Racheli.
SPEAKER_04Um okay, so this one's really, I mean, I don't know, it might be very stupid, but you know how sometimes when you have like a little, like when you um go into a bathroom or somewhere, there's like a little step up and it says be careful because you can fall or whatever. So like he puts like a little um, I don't I don't know what the word is in English, like a little uh it's not a step per se. It's like a little thingy.
SPEAKER_10I I think you're gonna be happy with how Refers translates it.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so like a little thingy, and then if he puts that there, he's asking for someone to fall and break.
SPEAKER_10Okay, so so let's let's I'll show you this. I I think this is what you're saying, okay. Uh, but let's actually go. Um okay, so we have Matsuraszion says matza is in Mariva. So matzah means uh like quarrel fighting, okay, and that's how we translate it, and then pisco is alpesa chape. So he takes it as um as his his mouth, okay. So it kind of like to me, it's not I don't want to say it's the same idiom, but it's kind of like in um in if you want to like you know be crude, you say like, you know, shut your trap, your trap, or like you know, close your yapper, you know, like it's like a very like blunt physical term to use for your mouth, okay? So um uh or it can mean doorway, okay, as we'll as as uh you know, as Yeti said, okay, um, or as he implied, at least, uh, I think. I don't know, uh, unless he was trying to avoid the implication. Um okay, so Sadigone says, Mish Hamatsav Hamriva. So he translates it as someone who loves quarrel and contention, I guess. Let's say uh behold, he loves um uh offenses, transgressions, however, you want to translate um oh actually, yeah, uh, however you want to translate Peshaim. Okay, and then umisheshaver, and one who raises his um his entrance or his opening, you know, seeks um uh breaking. Okay, fine. And the targum is just a straight up translation the rachim chova rachimatsusa umerim tart tar e by tabra. Okay, I think that's just a straight up translation. Let me just move these out of the way, but I'm not gonna delete them. Okay, so then we're gonna get our English translations, and this is where I think uh uh Racheli will find something interesting. Hold on. I'm just gonna move, I'm gonna delete the Targum. Yavita or Yeti.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, one thing that that's different about the Targum Ksuvim versus the Sarigon. Yeah, it's looked like the Targum Ksuvim was saying, Oh, he pesha we matza means one who loves Pesha loves fighting rather than as one, one who loves transgression and fighting.
SPEAKER_10It sounds like causative, like yeah, no, it's definitely different than the Sadigon, but it's not different than the way than the Hebrew, right? I think that's a straight translation.
SPEAKER_08Oh, okay, gotcha.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay. Um, hold on here. Sorry, I'm just gonna move these. Okay, so art scroll goes with Matsudis David. It says, one who loves betrayal, I don't know where it gets betrayal from, loves contention. One who opens his mouth arrogantly is asking to be broken. Okay, but then rehearses he who loves strife, loves crime. Whoever makes his threshold high, right, is looking for an accident. I think that's what you're talking about with the little step. Um, you know, you have to watch your step there.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_10Um, right? Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_10Okay, good, good. All right, so your intuition and reverse are on the on the same track here. Uh, Alter says, Who loves crime loves dissension. Okay, who builds a high doorway seeks a downfall. So that seems to be like um, I I guess like a doorway that is like literally like high up. I I guess. I don't know. Um uh and he says downfall more literally a break, okay, which is to say disaster. And then our YouTube friend Peskin says, Who loves faults, loves fights? He likes to make the alliteration there. Who raises his entrance asks for a broken bone. Okay, fine. I'm gonna keep all these English translations and then I'll put them in the chat because uh I want to stick with uh keep our options open here. Um, but I am gonna move them up above.
SPEAKER_14Uh-oh. Uh-oh. What should happen? Okay. Copy and paste. Uh what happened here? Okay, I don't know why it's all funny here, but whatever.
SPEAKER_10Okay, and then let me just move this up here. Okay, Avital or Yitzi.
SPEAKER_08Um, just in terms of the altar and pescan explanations, yeah. Raising entrance meaning it in the reverse way, or like just having a really high arching entrance way?
SPEAKER_10So I think it actually it could actually be several things. One possible so let's ask that as one of the questions here. Okay, if if um opening refers to an entrance of a house, what does raising uh raising it mean? Okay, does it mean um uh raising the threshold? Okay, that's like rehears, or um building a high doorway. Okay, so I I think this is altar meaning meaning sorry, meaning um meaning a doorway that opens up from a height. Okay, uh that's altar, and then I want to show you one other one also. Uh, I'm just gonna go down really quickly here. Don't look at any of the commentaries. Uh, I should have really moved this up. Um but Ho'il Moshe. Okay, and this is kind of an interpretation already, but I I think it is close enough to his translation that I just want to show you. He says, Pesof beso, bivnoso laatmo armon malafim built roy vinachon law. He builds for himself a palace fit for kings, something neither appropriate uh nor proper to him. Okay, um, so that would seem to be like um he uh or or he builds his doorway or house in a manner above his you know his socioeconomic status. Uh socio economic status, or I think there's another one also. I'm just gonna I'm not gonna even go down there. Let me just look at the um uh one of the Im Kasbi things. I don't know if we can infer from this, but he says, um no, the second one. He says, uh, this is clear in that land. I don't know if he's talking about Israel, Shakol Bateam Bibsachim Schvelim, Zulasi. Uh oh, so the same he says the same same thing. Zulas Piskayashaarim. So I guess in most houses you have a like a uh a low entrance, uh, but in the entrances of the houses of officers or like ministers or princes, it's very, very high up. So yeah, or I'll just say or something else. Yeah, so I think that's a question. Okay, Isaiah.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, so who's doing the lifting in this Pasuk? And is it is it the OEPesh or is it someone else? Okay, right.
SPEAKER_10Who is yeah, is this is this Pasuk talking about two people or the same person? Um yeah, uh Rivki.
SPEAKER_07So in both halves, um, I'm wondering if like the um action, the next action is like intentional. So like let's say like the first one, then first half, like is the loving like Mata like intentional or is it a result of you know just loving Pesha? And then the second half also like I'm wondering, like, I know in general, like you know, like Bakasha, I feel like we kind of use that as intentional, but I'm wondering here if it's like kind of like what you were saying before of like, oh, like you're asking for it, you know.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, exactly. Right, right. Yeah, okay. So um how intentional are the actions mentioned in this uh in this posk? Okay, um, particularly, I'll say particularly the second action in each half, right? Um, meaning are uh uh you know, it is this claiming that a person who intentionally and knowingly knowingly loves Pesha also loves matzah in the same way, sorry, in in the same way, or is it or is is his love of matza uh just a an unintended consequence? Okay, um, and then likewise, I'm gonna I I I want to spell this out just because I think uh it is slightly different in each one. Um is the person who is raising his door, his opening, um intentionally seeking uh breaking, which doesn't seem likely, or is it like when we say in English, uh you're asking for trouble, right? Um you're not actually like looking for it, but you're you're you know you're doing something that is so inevitably going to lead it to it that it's like you're asking for it. Yeah, Abital, are you at the same time?
SPEAKER_08Um yeah, kind of building off that question, um, how is it that the ohive pasha comes to be ohive matzah? And how is it that the magby apisko comes to be a mivakesha?
SPEAKER_10Okay, right. Okay, so what is the cause and effect relationship uh between the actions or between the qualities, the two qualities mentioned in each half? Mentioned in each half. Um yeah, how does uh how does one correlate to correlate or lead to the other?
SPEAKER_08And yeah, it's and then just to add one more thing on that is yeah, uh how does the first half and second half relate to each other or like relate to one another?
SPEAKER_10Right. What is the relationship between the two halves? Actually, I'm gonna put this um move this down here. Um I think both these questions have to be asked together. What is the relationship between the two halves of the Pusuk? Uh, and is this talking about two people or the same person? Yeah, Alex. I'm curious what the Hava Amina is. Yeah. Okay, so what is the Hava Amina, which I'll explain in a second, in each half? Um, i.e. what mistaken conclusion would we have drawn, or I gotta put mistaken um belief about these phenomena would we have without this PUSUK, this PUSUK, such that the PUSUC is necessary? Yeah. Ruki.
SPEAKER_07I'm not sure if this might be included in one of the other questions, but I'm wondering if there are any other actions that are happening besides like the, you know, oh catch up and the the second half.
SPEAKER_10That's a good question. I think I'm gonna ask that at the top, which is what is the decision-making scenario here? Um, are we just talking about abstract qualities in the first half? Um or do these qualities express themselves in concrete actions or decisions? Yeah, the second one sounds like he's actually doing something, right? So I think this is more of a question on the first half. Uh Stephanie.
SPEAKER_06Um, so just basic questions. What is pesha and what is matza?
SPEAKER_10Right.
SPEAKER_06What is pesha?
SPEAKER_10Uh, and then I'm gonna say um I also think the intentionality question is relevant independently on on pesha, like um, is it intentional or even unintentional? And then what is matza? Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Also, how can somebody love um strife? And like that begs the question of like what type of strife is one that somebody would love.
SPEAKER_10Okay, so how is the word love being used here? Uh and uh and is it being used in the same way uh in both instances, right? In other words, uh like we um, you know, like again, like the same ways we say like you're asking for trouble. If let's say someone is, let's say someone is, I'm just making this up, let's say someone is always entering into talent contests um to demonstrate a talent that they that they can't win, right? So if you said, why do you love losing so much? You know, like they obviously don't love losing, they love entering into talent shows because they think they're gonna win. So the the love there is almost being used in a sarcastic way, and that's kind of like the the vibe I get here. Um, unless it's saying that the love is conscious. This relates to the conscious, unconscious question, you know. Um, so and yeah, why would someone why would someone um uh why would, or let's say how could I know which one's a better question, someone love pesha or matzah? Yeah, rookie.
SPEAKER_07On question two, maybe I'm just like misremembering, but I thought that pesha is like always intentional.
SPEAKER_10So what's confusing me is that pesha in rabbinic Hebrew is negligent. So I don't know for I'm gonna look up in one other dictionary here in the Klein dictionary, um which sometimes has Pesha. I mean, what you might be thinking of is invidui, like Peshati. That is yeah, yeah, but that's that's also not necessarily how it's always uh how it's uh you know always used. And that also the Vidui formulation, yeah. That's I I think it's it's still uh a question here. So let's say they say here uh Pesha's to rebel or transgress, or that's the one that you were thinking of here. Um cause to transgress, uh transgress, trespass, guilt of transgression, criminal act, crime. Okay, fine. Yeah, so it does seem to be um these things. But here's the thing, though, even if that's the case, I don't know if oh have pesha would necessarily imply intentionality on the person's part. For example, like like let's say, for example, you so okay, one case would be a person rebels against God and they love rebelling against God, right? But let's say the other case, something is considered detestable to God, God hates it, and they love doing the action. I would still say, Oh, you love rebelling against God, you know, and that's in like that sarcastic way we're saying before. So I don't know if it if it necessarily implies intentionality here.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so just like I guess methodology, oh my gosh, methodology, quant day, question on that. Like my association with it, I know obviously like we have to like understand like the root of a war a word, but I really thought that like that was it. So how do we know when like we're imposing our own, you know, I've just only really heard it at terminology.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, right. Um, I I mean look, I I if it weren't for the fact that Hazal changed the meaning, I would also think that only means uh uh you know uh rebellious. But you know, the fact that they use it for you know for negligent means that apparently the word, I mean they know Hebrew better than we do, and apparently the word can be you know can tolerate both uh both meanings, uh at least uh in in in terms of the root. Uh again, I don't know biblical Hebrew. I want to check one more place. In the Milonim Kadmonim, so these are the Rishonic dictionaries, Hesha Meskolakosholo, Faral Pesha. Uh they don't usually actually define it, they just show you the um the instances where it's used, but sometimes that you get lucky.
SPEAKER_11Uh okay, a pet no.
SPEAKER_12No shim keep a horse, how you push Israel ravim okay.
SPEAKER_10Okay, so here he says, Inan ha pesha, who hum this is the Radak, Hammered with Sais Mirchus Adon or Hamitsabeoso Al Dabar. So the so the uh the concept of pesha is rebellion and the departure from the authority of the master or the commander. Umru Rabusinosal, Avonos Elu Hazdonos, Peshaim Eluhamradim. So Khazal also say on the Pasuk that Pesha means rebellion. Okay, it goes on. Ah, here we go. So um in oh, this is interesting then. So in um I just want to see this in how our score translates, Vikra 4.2. This might be so this this might be even biblical, then hold on. If I'm understanding this right, 4-2. It says, so the Pasuk says wait, what? Oh no, it doesn't say the word pesha in there. So it says, uh, when they say it with regarded regarding a an object that's entrusted to you, I'll call Dabar Pesha, Rutomalomer Pesha Bipikadon. So pesha with uh an object entrusted to you, shaloshamru kidar kashonim, if you don't guard it properly. Oh, there we go. Even though there's no rebellion here, diamond, you're not destroying it like directly. So it's it's derived. So if I'm watching your object, and that's my my you had one job, right? And I don't pay attention to it, so even though I did not intentionally destroy it, my action is considered uh uh like my negligent action is considered rebellion, you know, because I'm rebelling the whole concept of the guardian. That's where you get it from.
SPEAKER_07Like the negligence, like it's exactly, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_10Um, so he says, Yeah, so I guess the the the negligence is a secondary uh meaning, but it's derived from rebellion. So the primary meaning is rebellion. All right, good. I'm glad we looked at the radak here. Okay, uh other questions here. Yes, Abital or Yeti.
SPEAKER_08Um I sorry. Um I am uh wondering why the first half of the Pasuk is expressed in terms of um like emotion or attitude, and the second is yeah, like ohive is like the internal world, and Magviya Mivakish is in terms of what the person's actually doing.
SPEAKER_10Okay, good question. I actually want to ask here um on the love question of is uh i'll say additionally is love being used uh is love does love uh here refer um to you know purely sorry purely to the emotion or is it being expressed in some action okay and then the question on the two halves that you just asked which is why is the first half um uh focused on the the feeling whereas the second is focused on the action yeah are y'all yeah I think you may have touched upon it but um just want to explain it further uh it's interesting that it's using the word you know oh as opposed to actually doing the act itself right meaning like does it is there is there like a nuanced difference yeah right right so um I'll say moreover what is implied by the use of the word love instead of referring directly to the action um uh i e um one who you know offends okay uh so in other words does this imply that the consequence comes uh from the feeling itself or is the action implied or does love's offense imply a multiplicity or frequency of uh offenses in other words it could be that you know for example if if I say like oh I love hamburgers so the implication is that like you know if I said your your your love of uh your love of hot dogs is gonna get you killed right so I clearly don't mean that just the feeling of hot dogs I mean the fact that you love them so much that you're eating a ton of hot dogs right so like is it that or is it or is it the the love itself? You know maybe if I didn't love the action but I did it anyway, you know, actually that's another question here. What about someone who engages in Pesha um but doesn't love it right yeah okay good that's a good question. I'm glad you uh brought that up okay uh Isaiah is um the person who the person who lists his uh raises his opening does he mvake shaber as like is that an effect of what he is that an effect of what he did or is that like um his mentality he's a mvake shaber and so he does okay so I think we asked that for the first one but um oh no I think we I think um yeah I think that was what we're asking here likewise is the person who was raising his opening intentionally seeking breaking or is it like when we say in English you're asking for trouble meaning he's not intentionally doing it but uh or knowingly doing it even but it's just gonna be an inevitable result.
SPEAKER_07Yeah Rivki Yeah did we ask about what it actually means to like seek breaking I don't think we did.
SPEAKER_10Uh we so I guess we've got to break that into two uh questions one is what does breaking mean in this context and then what does oh actually three questions what does seek mean in this context and again is this uh uh is this intentional or unintentional and then what does it mean to seek breaking which I guess really um this question is actually I'm gonna combine these two questions here hold on uh yeah okay uh yeah uh I guess like what's the uh what's the subject of the post up yeah that's a good question I have I have a few more questions if no one's gonna if no one has yeah sure go ahead all right and and like who's the audience yep uh who is the intended audience okay go ahead and who um and also like this I I think I think someone may have touched upon this but like it's interesting that uh the first half of the positive is talking about an emotion the second half of the positive is talking about like actual construction like building and whatever like um like what's the I guess I I guess is there a reason for that it's not such a strong question but yeah no I think I think that's included in in ours um I also want to ask another question which we may or may not get into but um is this connected to the previous or the next PUSUK uh and just to show you here because it's been uh two weeks so the previous PUSU was um uh I'll tell you why I'm laughing in a second uh actually no oh it's actually it might be previous psukim whoa what happened to the spacing here not mushed um how would I fix this no no there we go okay um so we had two psukumago three psukumago no two the hol is oh hev haraya the ach let so at all times um the friend loves or one loves of the friend but a brother is born for uh distress and then last week was Adam or two weeks ago Adam Chaser lev toyakov a person who lacks understanding will shake hands orev aruba leafnaire um one who uh acts as a guarantor for his friend I'm laughing at this because uh someone told me recently that they uh they just had someone who signed to be a uh a guarantor for him for like a lot of money and I said you better be glad that this guy doesn't learn mishlay because I said we just did a PUSUC you should never be a guarantor for anyone um yeah so it's funny there that's why I was laughing and then we have our Pasik and then um the next puSuk uh also um it's funny I'll translate it loosely here e Keshle Loyim Tato someone who's stubborn of heart will not find good the nepokiulashono one who is reversed in his speech ye pulled bra will fall into the harm so there uh so this is a very rare puzzle when I was compiling the the Mufar shim even though I didn't read all of them some of them interpret our Pasuk uh on its own some of them joined it with the previous one and some of them joined it with the next one. That's a little rare for me where you see like all three possibilities um uh which shows that like it it's flexible okay I feel like we got all the questions but let's just take one more look here I'm gonna post this in the chat again just in case um people didn't get it uh did we ask um what's the significance of raising the the doorway? Uh no we actually didn't um how does that oh no we did we did yeah yeah what is raising what does raising it mean yeah uh yeah um I guess also let's just say and if opening refers to one's mouth um why you know what is meant by raising uh one's mouth and why express it in a weird way you know I feel like I don't know I feel like the word usually means door or opening so like the the the the burden is on the person who wants to say that it's a it's a mouth you know it's just like why like there's other ways to say that like you can say like one who speaks haughtily you know like if that's what it means. So I think that's weird. All right uh this is gonna take a couple shipments of stuff into the chat um uh there's that and there's this and then one more oh I didn't change the numbers but okay whatever can I edit it yeah I can edit it um this is five and six and seven and eight oh no you know what did I just mess with the numbers hold on opening refers no that's six maybe I should just write to zoom and say like make your typing interface better all right um okay there's that and then we have 10 can we get all the rest in one shot let's see oh yeah we did okay just gotta do 10 no yeah 10 11 uh I have something to say before we have our thinking minute so those of you who follow my content chat will know that there is currently a fundraiser for Northwest Yeshiva High School which is the high school that I went to um and this I've never seen this before it is a quadruple match fundraiser so uh any dollar you donate will be quadrupled um and they're trying to get to 5000 there are five hours left in the fundraiser um uh you know I know I I appreciate how many of you um show your gratitude for my Shiorim by contributing to my um you know Rabish Name West Torah content fund but if you want to give back to the source like we would not be learning Michle if it weren't for Northwest Jeep High School. And you know I there is a reality in Michle to recognizing that you are part of the system and whether you know it or not, you are part of this system. This is the system that produced you know this is the system that was headed by Rabbi Moswitz and Rabbi Fox and that produced me and all of my uh you know my my my friends and several of my Talmudim and and one of the things that that you know a Mishlaik Sadiq does is caring for the perpetu the perpetuity of the system. In other words if you recognize this as a good then then giving back to allow that good to continue for future generations beyond you is something that is an act of Sedik to do. And again it's it's unbelievable like if you donate$20 that's$80 like that's a lot like like and I feel like I don't know if you feel this way but like sometimes when I'm I'm I'm thinking about contributing an amount it's like oh it's too small it won't make a difference. But like I feel like that's not the case here. You know like and every dollar does make a difference anyway so that's not a good thing in general but um I just wanted to uh encourage you if you have the means to consider um supporting and look you know give uh you know give a shout out to Rabbi Mosquitz for for being the one who brought Michle uh into the world uh uh to to this generation because uh we would not we would not be here without without Rabbi Mosquitz learning um learning mishleigh uh and teaching us how to learn it so and you're part of that MSora as well okay so um that is my commercial okay so uh let us take our thinking minute and in our new tradition we will think for a full minute sorry I was too busy thinking I lost right okay anyone have any ideas wow is this is this a first I have I have an approach it's not a full approach I have a half of approach uh let's go with my dad first so you might think that someone who loves transgression or crime or negligence would would be worried about getting caught but it's just the opposite here there's there's a pleasure in whatever the objective product of the transgression is and then there is the public the public publication or the right publicity yeah publicity that that uh that he gets from having outsparted uh okay that's interesting okay so um there's no fear of getting caught it's not mentioned there right there's no fear of repercussions interesting okay so you might think that someone who loves Pesha would be uh worried about getting caught uh but in reality uh in addition to the the pleasure or benefit they get from the crime itself sorry the crime itself there is a separate pleasure of you know getting away with it or outsmarting uh the system you know etc um and okay so i so that is a good observation about the loving of the crime now are you also explaining the loving um strife no i haven't don't have any okay no that that's good though in terms of the loving of the crime uh in other words i i think just to to focus on what move you're making uh is that you know you wouldn't say for i mean a guy who robs a um most guys who do who shoplift let's say right they they are shoplifting not because they love shoplifting but they love the thing that they're getting and and shoplifting is the easy way to get it but there are some people who love the shoplifting yeah Racheli yes yeah that's a good theory I thought he was explaining the second part that's why I wasn't sure that's why I asked yeah what do you want to say for the second part just like the the ensuing strife or whatever is the public part of it that's ah okay that's interesting um oh so you know what all right how about this let's try this then okay um so in reality they okay yeah no there's like this i think we can do the whole thing now okay um they love there's a separate pleasure of getting away with it or smart the system um but they only get that pleasure if they raise their voice to to brag about it okay uh and the consequence of this is that they will come into conflict with the you know the the parts of the system they they undermined and be broken as a result right I think that fits for for all of them right in other words you'll have the person who so in other words if you were to just commit the crime and then keep it a secret so then you're you get other mishalaic consequences from stealing but you're not gonna run into this problem. This is a problem of you become attached to the the ego pleasure of of pulling it off and but ego pleasures cannot be experienced unless other people know about it. So you you you broadcast it and then that brings the consequences to you. Yeah and again I I I know it sounds like I'm bringing this up every every time but I I I I assure you I actually have not mentioned this uh since our last Mitchell is yeah Jeffrey Epstein is you know that was the thing is that that like that it was just he flaunted everything so much until he got a reputation which uh ultimately got him in trouble for this you know his reputation and I'm not just saying for the crimes he did but for his cover up like he can get away with this and no one can stop him. Like that's what brought him down. Um whereas there were other people who were big criminals who did not brag about like to my knowledge um uh Bernie Madoff did not brag about his uh his his exploits he he did try to keep it secret you know yeah okay I think that's good that that works uh that turns the whole interpretation all right teamwork okay next is Seth okay my video doesn't work but it would have been helpful but so let's try this I have two approaches you got a door there that you want to show us uh no i'm I'm totally not on that same plane okay all right uh so I read this as someone who loves transgressive like like crimes loves heated conflict so the matza is a heated conflict okay and what he does is he raises up his chin tauntingly like picture somebody like this bully puffing out his chest raising up his chin in someone's face tauntingly seeking to break someone's bones or or alternatively asking to get himself hit in the chin okay that's one approach yeah okay and the second oh so the second you're saying second approach in terms of a different idea yeah so let's just think about this for a second here so someone who loves transgressive like crimes uh sorry did you uh did I type the wrong thing loves he did conflict he did conflict is that what you said he did yeah he did conflict right yeah okay so so what what can we just dive a little bit deeper into that first of all it sounds like you have a specific kind of crime in mind um and then what what is the relationship between the loving that kind of crime and the loving heated conflict okay so what I see is the bully the in the the individual who's always looking to pick a fight who loves making trouble I'm just picking picturing that guy um getting into the crowd trying to make trouble right getting in other people's face looking to break some bones right that's what I'm seeing happening here yeah okay so what is the I guess what's the what is the so I now I have a clear idea of who the personality is so what is Michle telling him like it sounds like he's gonna get what he wants right well maybe it's telling us to watch out for those people ah okay so oh you don't have to ask by the way that that's a question oh I mean sorry we did ask it in terms of who's the audience but um uh but we did not ask is it the person prone to I guess is the person described in the PUSOK or the would-be victim of this person okay so this is um so this is warning us about such people and I'm gonna add something to this I know you're not saying this but um um I just answer Alex's question is that the Hava Mina meaning what what might we think is that is that nobody is going to pick a fight with you if you didn't do anything to provoke or deserve it okay um but uh therefore shlomo tells you that there exists this type of personality who who will pick fights okay um uh there uh it's it's interesting this is a um this is a uh bad uh bad quality there was a teacher in a school I went to who was universally beloved by the students except apparently one of his bad meetos is a non-Jewish teacher is he would pick one student to just like make fun of and so I never had the teacher but I became a student that it's not like he did this on a regular basis because we didn't see each other but you just make fun of me in the halls you know and I was this very I mean I still don't like it when people like uh you know I no one likes it when people make fun of you but like no one I didn't like feeling like I did something wrong to upset an authority. So like I had this thought well if I don't do anything then this person's not gonna like pick on me. But like this guy was a bully for certain types of students. You know uh it was uh yeah and it it always like struck me as very very weird that like like I guess it was like 99% of the students love this guy but it but is he always picks on one student.
SPEAKER_01So yeah that deserves your emoji reaction roof uh okay now so that's one idea so this idea second idea okay so it's within the same framework of what we're talking about that same type of person but I want to look at the word matzah yeah and its root uh could also be from uh matzats if you take um memzadik tzadik or even just say mem tzadik hei with kamatzes not a pataf kamats you can get sahat you can get to suck out or to put pressure on something to cause something to to drain out so I I picture a person there's this person who loves drawing people out into this situation of this fight. And if you also think about the sucking motion there's this facial puckering that goes on when you suck juice and you look like this sour pus type of person that that's the person to look out for because look at that face and know he's the guy who's gonna be picking that fight with you and trying to draw you into this fight.
SPEAKER_10Yeah okay um there's also a a corresponding uh facial expression association with um with sucking juice uh and that is the type of sign you should look for in in this like giving some some of the stink eye uh you know but um yeah uh uh uh sorry look for this this quality And yeah, I want to just comment here on methodology here. So um Seth uh often emails me um explanations of the PUSIC or thoughts on the PUSIC afterwards. So there is a, you know, I've written about this before, but there is a um a style of interpretation uh that you see the earliest examples I know of are like Rehearsh and the Maubim, so relatively late, but there's a lot of this in the academic world of Torah now of like um either trying to uh you know to appreciate the literary nuances of the terms, or in some cases, like um making the literary nuances into the icker of the idea. So the Malvin does that a lot. We're like, you know, we as we know, Modvim holds there's no synonyms in Hebrew, and every single nuance is an intentional decision, and like he often makes the idea dependent on that that distinction. So um this would be an example of that kind of interpretation. Um so yeah, okay, good. Um I personally like your first interpretation better, but I recognize the truth of the second one, uh, even if uh if if it's oh in my for my taste, overly dependent on the on the nuance. But I I definitely see the uh um you know the idea. Okay, Ariel.
SPEAKER_09All right, I'm I'm gonna need a flavor here.
SPEAKER_10Uh-oh, uh-oh, okay.
SPEAKER_09All right, so I have um I have two I have two uh half you know half you know ideas. One is on the first half and the other one's on the second half. And I'm just not sure if if they can go together or if it will lead to two different ideas. Okay. And one of them seems more pushy than the other. Okay. So I'll start with the non-pash one first. Um I want to say that uh for the first half of the pasta, I think you can say that one who loves Pesha uh loves loves the matzah is means that the the Pesha here, I I would say it's um, you know, it's an it's an intentional transgression. It's you know, and what what is that what what what does it really mean when you're when you love you know doing intentional transgression or you love that as an as an idea? I think it just means that you love um you love uh pushing, or well not pushing, you love going against the author uh the boundary of authorities. Right. Authority. I I think that um I think I think that's kind of what you're saying as a guy who wants to do transgressions, you're basically saying that I'm not really interested in who uh created these trans uh the the system of the world which causes these transgressions, therefore I'm gonna go against it. That's basically what you're saying. Yeah, um so naturally you're going to this is the part I'm struggling with. You're you're going to love matsa, meaning strife. I don't know if it means you're gonna naturally love strife, but but it but that's just like a natural consequence of that. So I'm I don't know, I don't know. I don't know if why you would love it, but right.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, okay, so yeah, it's a good question. Um Right. I could I could also see it going two ways, right? So the simpler way is that that if you love rebelling against authority, then that will bring you into strife because at least one person is gonna get angry at you, which is the authority. Likely there's gonna be all all the people who are listening to the authority are gonna get mad at you. Um, but then the other possibility, so that I think that's the less obvious one. The the obvious one is that you can't love going against an authority without part of you also loving fighting the authority, right?
SPEAKER_09Maybe that might be true. That's what I was thinking. I was thinking that I just don't know. I just don't know. I I yeah uh so all right. So that's so that's so so so I don't have an idea for the second half of the post for this, and I don't know how to but but here here's here's um my shot for the second half of the post, which may or may not lead to a new idea or may possibly be joined with this one, is that I think when when someone op you know raises you know the opening of their door, I'm gonna say doorway. I think I think uh I think I think there is something I think you're kind of consciously saying something to the world about yourself. You kind of want to raise yourself up more than other people. You kind of want to you want to elevate yourself, and it's at the past stuff, you want it to be known. And I think I think that um uh you know the I'm I'm I'm inserting a word here which which you can't combine the two halves is you may love that. You might love it. I don't know. That's that's a question mark. But um but what it seeks breaking, now the question is the guy's not gonna intentionally want to seek breaking. I think that just means it's almost inevitable. Like inevitably you're going to end up in a situation where you're gonna be broken because people when you put yourself uh on a higher pedestal, you're making yourself a higher target. And eventually people are gonna want to go against you just because that's just how how the world works.
SPEAKER_10Right. Okay, uh good. Um, yeah, it reminds me I'm still in I'm still uh this year. I don't know why. I started I got into McGillas Esther mode a little late, and I'm still in it now. Usually I'm in Pesach mode by now. Uh but we were uh two chapices ago, we were going over all the reasons in the Gemara about why Esther invited Haman um to the party um instead of just asking the king to save the Jews. And so one of the theories given by one of the um one of Hazal is that she wanted to make the other officers jealous, and she wanted to make the king jealous. Um, and obviously those are different kinds of jealousy because the king is jealous because here's his queen you know, lavishing attention on another man, but then all the other officers are jealous because not only does Haman have everyone bowing down to him, but now he's having private meals with the king and queen, and she was doing that in order to know that it was it was gonna bring him down. So I think the same thing when you especially if you take this literally, that you're open, you're you're literally crafting your door in a way that signifies that you are sp something special here, you know. Um, you know, it kind of reminds me, and I I hope no one takes offense at this. Um let's just say that in uh okay, I'll maybe should I make this a cultural thing? I'll make it a cultural thing. Um, you know, where where I grew up on Mercer Island, okay, which is a suburb of Seattle, there are a lot of like rich people, okay, like in the back part of the island, right? So like the back part of the Mercer Island, south end of the island is like Lawrence here, okay. The difference is that um what I've seen in Mercer Island is that most of the really rich houses, the style is it's out of the way and private and in the back and like concealed. Okay. What we what I have not seen on Mercer Island is you see there's a trend in these parts, and are you probably knows because you're in your real estate. There's this trend, people build literal castles, right? Like I when I moved to Farakaway in 2002, there were no castles. There are like literal, like with turrets and like like actual castles that take up like entire like blocks, you know. And I'm like, I feel like that's the kind of thing. I I don't know what kind of doors they have back then, but I feel like that's the kind of thing where like if you do that, you are investing in a status symbol right there in the front of your house that everyone can see, you know? Um, and so it is making a statement, uh, and uh and it is gonna make you know it is gonna have this is what we call Ayn Hara. Ayanhara is doing actions that that will uh get a rise out of other people who are jealous of you, and it's gonna attract negative attention and often negative actions. So that's one question.
SPEAKER_09Sure. I I agree with everything you said, but no, I'm joking. My question is in Mercino Island, though, is there a lot more real estate there? Like land to play around with uh no, it's an island. Oh, so two miles by five miles, yeah. Um, because I was saying because here in New York, like on the corner of Africa and uh whatever, just like um yeah, I do want to say something that I I okay, I heard this during a time.
SPEAKER_10Uh what I'm about to say, I heard a fact during a time. I did have a time when I think I did have like a photographic memory. Um uh and that's why I remember like a lot of stuff. You know, the call it girsa diancusa, which means the the factual learning of your youth, where there's like like a Gamar where like a bay says, like, I wish I had learned this when I was young, because then it would have been Girsa Diancusa. So I think when I was I was in a certain like absorption phase when we were when I was converting to Judaism, that kind of like lasted for like a little while. So I heard this then. I have not looked to confirm this fact, but I heard this on a barrel wine tape that the Riff was um one of the great Khachamim in Morocco. He lived for a very long time. Um, Yitzhak Al-Fasi, I think from 11, yeah, um 1113, 1013 to 1103. Okay, 90 years back then was a very long time. So I was told, or I I heard from this tape that he made a decree that uh that uh in his community that you could build houses as large as you want, but you need to build a wall in front of the house to conceal it from the public street. So no one can see it from the street, you know. Um, and uh and I I heard that that was for this idea that like like you know, there is a look, if a person has enough money, they can they can live in comfort, but like it's bad what for you to stoke your ego in that way, and it's bad for you in terms of the iron hard that you're gonna get by making other people jealous of you. And he wanted to stop that. So I uh whether or not that's real, and I'm remembering correctly, that that's a good uh good policy. Yeah, okay, I see what you mean, Ariel, that these are two separate ideas that um that each works really well for each half. So let's put this on the sideburner for now, okay? Um, and and see if we can come back to it. Uh, but I they have potential. Okay, Isaiah.
SPEAKER_15Okay.
SPEAKER_11You're a little far away, I can't hear you.
SPEAKER_14I don't know. Yeah, I can hear you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the way I was thinking about this is like maybe someone who if you were interacting with someone who you can see is an Ohe Pesha, they love either like uh crimes or you could say um transgressions, I think also. Um so you might realize that they love that, um, but you might still want to interact with them for whatever reason, you're attached to them, something like that. Um, but what you need to know is that that's a bad idea because they're also an OHAVE because of the fact that they love things that are you know counter to the system and are based in irrationality, so they're gonna have to they're gonna like uh rub up against those systems and those rational things, and they're gonna have to fight like at certain points in time. Um if you open your door to them, then you're sort of asking to get hurt. Um right, so that's that's the problem. That you're you're if you're letting them in, then you're you're you're looking, you're asking for it, basically. Okay, good.
SPEAKER_10Uh, you know what we forgot to do, by the way? Um uh just to add to this question about what the relationship between the two halves is. It's interesting, this one does not say and, right? So the way I would read it, let's say the way you're reading it here is one who loves pesha loves conflict, therefore, or uh therefore, um if a person opens his door to them, then he's seeking to get broken. Um, so I just want to add this into the questions here for future reference. Here, what's the relationship between the two halves? Uh, what do we make of the lack of a VOV? Okay, yeah. So this is really, really good. Um, I was um, I mean, I think this is a very common theme in every movie about criminals, uh, where there is someone who you know lives a life of crime, and then someone gets drawn in, whether it's a friend or whether it's a love interest or whatever, and then they uh ultimately end up getting uh the getting the brunt of it. Um I saw a really gruesome example of this um that I was gonna share in some chat, but I forgot. Um and I think this is an ongoing thing, but like like there was some mob boss recently that uh his son got kidnapped, his adult son got kidnapped, and like they were making threats. And I he they uh later on, like a video surfaced of of this son uh like all battered and bruised and saying that they're torturing him, and then they started finding body parts, you know. Um, and they did not they said that they have to confirm with DNA evidence whether it is the you know, whether it's the body parts of uh of the son, but like, you know, and I I I feel like if the son was not involved in crime, then then it's really unfortunate. But like, you know, this guy, I mean, I guess it could be a lesson to not go into crime if you care about your loved ones, but like anyone who's involved in crime is gonna get brought get brought into conflict, like Isaiah said, and then that is going to open up the people close to them to being broken because it's inevitable, right? That that is uh it's inevitable. So again, it's inevitable in Mishleigh. There are a lot of Michle about crime will get you consequences, but I like the way Isaiah put the Havamina here is that okay, like I can still be a part of this person's life, and I can I don't I'm not doing crimes, I'm just like friends with them or like I hang around them or whatever. But no, no, no, you are going to get drawn in. I mean, again, I I don't need to bring this example, but I you know I still think that one of the greatest shows about Michle is breaking bad, and this happens a lot in breaking bad, no spoilers, but it happens a lot in breaking bad where people who are doing crimes end up hurting the people around them. Yeah, okay, good. I like that idea. Uh Rufki.
SPEAKER_07Best show, such a good show.
SPEAKER_10Yes.
SPEAKER_07Um, okay.
SPEAKER_10So I gotta weigh in, butter called Saul, yeah, I think actually better.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah. Debbie and I have a mock locus about that, and I think also better, but yeah, yeah. Um, okay, so I think for the idea I was thinking, like, I think I'll just start with like the subject of what I think it's talking about. So I think that with both halves, even though they I'm taking it as separate, like I'm not necessarily reading it like Isaiah, but I think that they are both speaking about someone who is not actually cognizant of how their actions are affecting the people around them. Um, so I think for the first half, you know, let's say like someone who loves um, you know, Pesha, whether it's, I don't necessarily think it needs to be intentional or unintentional. I think it could go either way. But that idea we just, you know, spoke about about like rebelliousness of like kind of like that negligence type. Um, so they don't realize that even if they don't think that they love strife, like from the people's perspective that they're around, they do because it always their personality or like their love, I guess, of Pesha will always lead to strife and it will make the people around them obviously be, you know, wary of that. Um, and they don't they don't see that connection. So that's for the first half.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, just one one uh comment here. I feel like the example of this, um that actually, you know what? I'm wondering also, hold on. We we totally didn't ask this question. I don't want to um insert this into your idea if it if you tell me that it doesn't work, but it might uh hold on just one second here. Does uh the love statement go both ways? In other words, can it also mean that one who loves strife loves Pesha? Okay. Um, but what I was gonna say is that um I feel like a category of this that we see, especially if you've spent time in a girl's uh high school, is uh is is I feel like there are certain people who just love drama.
SPEAKER_07That's exactly what I was yeah, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_10You know, and so they and and I think in that sense, this is why I was uh I'm uh wary of like um uh putting this into your idea, but for that, that goes the other way around. Like they love the strife, and then that leads them to like defy other people or to like wrong them or whatever, you know. Um, and uh, but again, it I think it could go it can go both ways. And so so but the main important point that you're saying though is that is that it is the the puzzle is speaking to the people around them saying like like stay away, you cannot have this person without having their strife or their pesha, like it's it's it's a package deal.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, exactly. So I guess in that sense, it's like a little bit similar to Isaiah. Yeah, um, but I was gonna say actually kind of the opposite of your example. I was thinking more of like that kid in class who you know asks all those annoying questions because they want to like you know get a rise out of the teacher. Yeah, that's more of what I was thinking. Like, I feel like that's more of like uh emphasis on the exactly, exactly the emphasis on the glory, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_14Yeah. Okay, good.
SPEAKER_07So that's the first half.
SPEAKER_14Okay, good.
SPEAKER_07The second half, I think um, you know, I have the the subject, the subject still fits. I don't think I have it as clear, but I was just thinking like that idea of when you raise, you know, the you know, let's say the threshold, I think that even if your intention is not to cause pain to others, like, you know, someone's gonna trip literally, right? Um, or I think it also works with the mouth example in you know that way also, you're still gonna do that. So even if you're just like, you know, you wanna make it taller for whatever reason, maybe it's like what I forgot who, but someone said, like, you know, you want to raise yourself up or whatever, you're not thinking about the people around you and you're gonna like kind of mess everyone else over.
SPEAKER_10Okay, that's good. Right. Um, so it's it's going to be a un uh uh, you know, it's sorry, it it may, it may be an unwitting consequence, but it's inevitable. Uh, and therefore, uh therefore it's not unwitting, right? Uh yeah, yeah. You know, it's the funny example that I that I don't know why I didn't think about this earlier, but like I feel like this is a thing, not so much in thresholds, but in people's living rooms where like there's a step that the owner always has to say, watch the step. And you're like, okay, well, why did the architect do this then? You know, like if everyone's gonna trim. Like it's just, you know, I mean, I'm sure there's architectural reasons to do it, but but yeah, yeah. All right. So are you um are you saying then what are you saying about the relationship between the two halves?
SPEAKER_07So I guess I don't have the greatest connection between the two, other than the subject. Okay, that's it. I'm struggling. I think the subject is very clearly not realizing like doing an action which doesn't connect to how you see the people around you. Okay, I don't have a good idea.
SPEAKER_10Okay, all right. That I think this is this is like a 90% idea. I think we're almost there. All right, uh Alex.
SPEAKER_03So my idea is very similar to others that we've discussed so far, but I think what makes it specifically different is how I conceptualize the first half in terms of the person who loves Pesha and uh loves uh strife. To me, I thought of the specific kind of archetype of person who like always plays devil's advocate and like loves to sow discontent in the people around them. And there is kind of a connection of like, yeah, those kind of people do like transgressions. They like being socially transgressive, they like creating problems. And the second half to me, at least, um, is a warning to others of like if you open your mouth to debate them or to talk against them, you're just seeking to be broken because this is their mo. This is what they seek to do. They want to break you and make you argument when you don't want to be argumentative.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, okay, that's that's really good. Uh that okay, that's that's a good uh good warning. Uh that I feel like is hold on. Does that remind me of something that we said before? Uh yeah, it's kind of like uh Seth's first interpretation about the bully who likes picking fights, but this is in a um uh this is in a uh uh more of a uh elevated uh way, not not so much the the playground bully, but the uh you know the the intellectual bully, it could be. I don't know. Yeah, okay, good. I I I like that. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, you know what's difficult though? Uh if you're the teacher, right? Then you gotta figure out what to do with the person like that.
SPEAKER_03I feel like even from a teacher perspective, the point isn't to argue with that person in the way that they want you to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_10But the difference is that you can't avoid opening your mouth. Whereas, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like I think then it like goes back to you know the classic, not necessarily where there's a power imbalance, but like this is just an average person that's the same level as you. Right.
SPEAKER_10Well, I'll tell you, you know, it's interesting. Um, the uh this is in the famous Pusik in Mishle uh that contradicts uh the puzzle next to it, um where uh it's in 26. Uh Al Tang Xil Kivalto Pentishvilogamata, do not answer a fool according to his foolishness lest uh you be equated with him. Uh and then anekil kivato penyhi chakame of answer a fool according to his foolishness lest he be wise in his own eyes. So, like, and this is a Xil. So he's I I'm not saying that a Xil automatically has that quality of Oh Pesha, but like one version of the KXIL it could be what you're describing. And and like there are times when you have to respond to put him in his place, and then there are times when if you try to put him in his place. He's gonna end up putting you in his place in the eyes of everyone else, you know. Um, yeah. All right, good, good, good interpretation. Uh, I'll be taler yet. I don't know who's there now.
SPEAKER_08Um, yeah, so I'm thinking that someone who is uh Ohive pesha uh is a lot of times for ego reasons, either picking a fight to kind of make themselves bigger or wronging people or slighting them just because they kind of view themselves as better and don't concern themselves so much with the other person. Yeah. So this person is someone who's ohive matzah because through their actions of not really caring for other people and more being egocentric, that's going to lead to fights. Right. The second half of the pastak is saying that someone who's magbiya pizza, not necessarily that they that the way their ego shows is through like uh bumping elbows with other people, but more through like their ego just shows through you know, showing off their wealth and the different fights they have. So that person is also Miva Keshever. They're also being asked to be broken, meaning these are the two halves are two archetypes of people let the ego get their best of them. And even though their mode of expressing it is different, there's a very similar result.
SPEAKER_10Okay, good, is also driven by ego, but not in a way that antagonizes uh that yeah, antagonizes others as victims, but it still has this effect. Okay, so this is actually when I said at the beginning and no one had their hand raised, I said, like, I have an idea. This was my idea. I also have not worked it out. But I was also looking at this as these are two types of egotistical personalities that both um are like magnets for for harm. Um and hold on, let me just think about it for one second here. I had uh I had a slightly different idea for the second half. Give me one second. Okay, I don't remember now, but I do like this idea. I think we need to develop this slightly more, and the reason why is because there are I'll ask this as a question here, is is um is there are many uh egotistical personalities in Mishle that uh bring harmful consequences onto themselves. So, what is it about these two that weren't pairing in a single PUSOK? Or in other words, Azaria would say, what is the subject? Right? So I feel like if we answer that question, then we can get like a complete idea. Let's just think about that for a little while. Or you if you have an answer, you can say.
SPEAKER_08We can think about it for a little while.
SPEAKER_10Right, like just as an example, the late is very egocentric, and he he goes and he like does character assassinations to people, and that's definitely gonna make people angry. Um, and uh I feel like that is uh a similar phenomenon, but it is different than just loving uh the the uh the you know uh transgressive uh ness or whatever, you know. Ooh, okay, here okay, I think I got it. Okay. So uh I'm gonna go with the idea of Pesha as um rebellion. Okay. So there's two fundamental uh expressions of ego. There is uh overthrowing the authority or becoming the authority, okay. Um so I think the the first half uh wants to uh uh you know the the first half is someone whose ego s uh egotism expresses itself uh in fighting the authority, okay, um, whether through rebellion or through uh putting other people down, okay. Um second half uh is someone who is seeking to raise himself above others and to become the the authority figure, okay. Um and so that person, um right. So that's not a full idea yet, but I feel like that is the type of like uh I just want everyone to see like the the methodology here, even if we end up being wrong, but like in the question, I'm saying, like, oh there this there are a lot of candidates here, but now I'm looking for something that's like mutually exclusive or comprehensive, and like boom, that that that that's what this is here. So I I feel like this is one step closer to the idea.
SPEAKER_08Um, can I can I give another option? So I I wonder if we uh if we explain Pesha as somebody not who's like he he's wronging people, but it's not out of uh maliciousness, it's not out of like wanting to be in a fight with people per se, it's just the viewing himself as a lot as like bigger and better than other people, then what you have in this Pussic is two egotistical personalities who are not specifically looking for a fight, they're not specifically picking to pick anything, but due to their the fact that their actions are driven by egotistical motivations, it it by definition or automatically will lead. Okay, good. So versus someone like elites who the the expression of their ego goes directly to fighting with other people, just saying that even people are gotistics who aren't looking for a fight, they're it's true, they're not looking for a fight right now, but give it a week or two and the fight. Okay, good.
SPEAKER_10That's a that that that's a that's a much better idea for for the way that we were uh taken here. Okay, so I I I like that. Um, yeah, okay, that's good. Uh so this is really so it's interesting. So this could still serve as a warning for both the person themselves and the victim. In other words, if you sense in yourself that you are the person who wants to make your castle, you know, uh, then like you are gonna come into conflict, uh, even though that's not what you're interested in. You're not interested in, and and you might genuinely not want to feel better than other people. Maybe you just always want to grow up in a castle, you know, but it will come into conflict with conflict with people, you know. Um, and same thing with the the O of Pesha, that like that, you know, there are some people who just want to be the biggest fish in a small pond, uh, or in a big pond, even, and and they just they're they're they're not trying to hurt people, but that's just the trajectory of their personality, but they're gonna end up coming in conflict. Okay, good. I like that. And this is also another thing that that indicates that this is, I don't know if it indicates that it's truer, but I feel like there it with all the ideas we've come to tonight, there are several ideas that people have about like this unintention who has this behavior will come into conflict unintentionally. I feel like that that's like the thrust of these. So I think that's uh this is more in line with that. Okay, good. All right, nice. Okay, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_06Um, so I see um the Pesha person in the same way as it being like unintentional, someone who's just being selfish, putting themselves first, just like everyone else is saying.
SPEAKER_13Yeah.
SPEAKER_06But the relationship between the two halves is I see one as more bigger picture thing, something that's obvious, someone who commits a crime, because let's say they want a bag, and you know, it causes discontent in society, because then if everyone steals, then you don't have a proper society and no one really has anything.
SPEAKER_15Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um, and that's like an obvious thing that causes strife. So the reason why it puts something really obvious um in the first half is to clue us in in the second half. Um, for if you do something small, I'm taking the raising as not mouth as a doorway because you're just doing a small thing in your house, like, oh, you're just raising a doorway to like make it look nice. But what you're doing is you're limiting the type of people that can come into your house, like people with wheelchairs or old people. And it's just showing that doing small things in your own life can have a ripple effect on society and yourself.
SPEAKER_10Okay, good. Uh the less obvious second half. You know, it's interesting. Um I I don't think I mean, I I I I don't think it's a bad interpretation to say that this is like just you know raising the threshold and like it's gonna trip people. I do think that the building the fancy doorway, I think is a much more um I think it's a relevant I I think it's a much more relevant idea in the sense that I think people do this all the time. Like I think another common example of this that um that people talk about all the time is like people who post pictures on their social media of themselves going on lavish vacations and stuff like that, and they just totally don't realize that they are drawing negative attention to themselves or like making people resent them or spreading discontent to people who are in their social circles who can't like afford that, you know. So I feel like it is a um, you know, I feel like again, I don't know what people were thinking back then when they made their doors higher, but I feel like like making a high, like a big door, like you know, like like the Hoyel Moshe said about making a uh door to your uh uh a palace fit for kings that's not pro proper for you. I feel like that's a uh uh you know, it might not be a better interpretation of the PUSC. I feel like it's a more relevant practical application, you know, rather than making something that's gonna trip people. I feel like that's like I feel like the thing that's gonna trip people, I think the reason why I don't like that interpretation so much is it's the type of thing where people are not emotionally invested in it so much. Like, like and you point it out to them and they're like, okay, I'll change it. Whereas this is like a real media that people have to work on. So I feel like this is more of a candidate for the type of thing that Michele were talking about.
SPEAKER_06I don't mean it like that little ledge in the house that's like doesn't make any sense. I mean like let's say a stoop on a doorway, like um for my house, we must have had a wheelchair user before us because there's a ramp going up to our house, but a lot of places have steps leading up to their doorway. Right. And then that makes it a lot harder for people to go in. So I think it's specifically talking about things that make it less accessible to certain types of people, not because you want it ornate, but because you're not thinking about the needs of others.
SPEAKER_10Um yeah, I so I I as much as I think that that is a positive trend in society, I think that's an extremely modern idea, accessibility. And I think I also feel like that's a very narrow the I think that's the other thing I didn't like about uh the this is why I want to say it's about like making an ornate door or showing off your wealth in some way, because I feel like that's a that that's like in all societies. That's a thing that like uh people need to warn against. Again, the weakness to that is that that it still is weird that's picking on this one example of a door. Maybe that's just something culturally we don't understand. Uh, but either way, we have to contend with that. So that that's that's my only bone to pick with that with this uh idea. I think I like your main idea. I just uh want to take the second half in a different direction.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's fair.
SPEAKER_10Okay, uh Racheli.
SPEAKER_05Okay. First of all, I just want to say earlier you said that ego pleasure cannot be experienced unless other people know about it or something like that. And I really like that. And I never heard it like stated so clearly, but I made a Okay, nice.
SPEAKER_10I'll I'll qualify it. I thought you I was bracing myself for you to disagree, so I started coming up with a reputation. No, so I was gonna say that I don't think it has to actually be known, but the part of the pleasure is imagining people knowing about it, you know. Um like the person who is on a desert island for the rest of their life, like is probably not gonna get this pleasure that much anymore. Um, and if they do, it's gonna be because they imagine what it's like when other people like uh uh see it, you know. I think that's just ego pleasure, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Okay, fine. Anyway, so then I wanted to say that kind of similar to what everyone else is saying for the first half, that um someone who loves Pesha, it's not like uh actually, I don't know if this is similar. What I wanted to say is that it's not necessarily coming from an egoic place, like particularly the way that you defined it just now. Meaning, maybe that person doesn't really care whether other people know. They just um enjoy like cheating the system a little bit or like getting what they want out of um kind of options that are not legal or whatever, transgressing how there are norms or whatever. Um, and so the equal language of oh have oh have is coming to say like there is no difference. Like, don't imagine that a life of transgression can ever not lead to strife and can ever um be peaceful, really. Um, and that those two things are just too intertwined with each other to be separated. Um my second my second part of the passak is totally like drosh or whatever because um or anachronistic, I don't know, but basically, um I was thinking of an opening of like a garage door where it like opens upward, so completely to the century.
SPEAKER_10Yep, that's what that is an anachronism.
SPEAKER_05Um but basically let's say someone opens up, so then and then I'm taking it to be metaphorical.
SPEAKER_13Okay, that's fine.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so let's say someone like like that kind of opening motion is to like let something beneath it. So someone might open up their standards a little bit and then say, and then say, like, yeah, I'm just gonna do like this small transgression or like that small thing, and like no one's gonna find out about it, and it's not gonna affect who I am. But someone like you shouldn't say that because um most things usually snowball, and like one thing leads to the next, and basically it affects your character to like be involved even in small um criminal behaviors, and ultimately, like that will lead you to strife, which will lead your life to be broken.
SPEAKER_10Okay. So uh the good news, I mean, I I don't need to critique it because I think your laughter says everything about you know what I'm gonna say. But um, but the good news is that there are lots of I of Psuka and Mishlei that say that idea outright. Um, and so it is the type of thing Mishlei would say. Um but yeah, but yeah, I uh unless we find a door that worked like that back then, uh, and have the second half. Look, taking the second half metaphorically, I actually don't have a problem with because this, you know, Matsudis Dovey takes it as a metaphor for your your mouth, you know. So, like that's we're already in some metaphor territory. And again, it's such a weird particular to focus on. So that I'm not as bothered by, but standards, yeah, a little bit. Uh yeah. Okay. Uh Rivki, and then we'll go to Mafarshim here.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So I'm just wondering for like that last little bit. It's not separate, it's based on my the first. Um, I'm wondering if Yitsi's um like end or answer to the question would fit, even though I'm not specifically speaking about ego as my subject. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_10Let's see. So your idea was about how you're not cognizant of how these actions are gonna affect people. Um, and yeah, that does work. Right. I mean, what I was thinking, hmm. Yeah, I think that works. It's hard for me to get back into the into your particular idea. Right now, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Also, the ideas are starting to run together now for all of them because there's a lot of ideas tonight. Okay, so let's go to the Mitsu's dev, then I want to go to the to the robog. Okay, not Rubin Yona tonight. Um okay, so Mitsu's dev, again, I haven't learned these, but I just uh when I was charting them, I I noticed uh well I haven't read this at all. Okay, ohave Mesha Ohave Lifshoa Bahavera, one who loves um, I guess uh you know sinning against his friend or wronging his friend, probably. Lifshoa Bahavera wronging his friend, hello yehov matza, does he not love strife? Kiase mirivaimo, for he will uh uh create a quarrel with him, a quarrel with him. Okay, that seems obvious. All right, and then um Hamerim Kol uh Umagbia, one who lifts Hamirim Kol Pishaipiv, one who raises the uh the uh the voice through the opening, I guess it raises his voice, um uh through the openings, the opening of his mouth. I'm sorry, uh his mouth, Keder Gase Haruah, in the manner of the haughty, uh Mavake Shever seeks breaking. Kimi Utes Laboala Baburhagai, for it will uh for it is uh is like destined to come upon him on account of his haughtiness. Okay, so just summary here, he seems to be saying that uh you know uh don't think you can love wronging your friend without creating strife and don't think you can raise you you can speak haughtily without um suffering the type of breaking that comes from from haughtiness. Okay, and I and uh there are other before I can quote this, but the you know I think we have the famous one. See if it's here. Yeah, Lifney Shevragaon the Lifne Kishalum Gova Ruach. Um uh pride, I mean, you know, pride comes before breaking. Yeah, this is where we get pride goes before the fall, and then uh uh haughtiness of spirit comes before stumbling. Uh I feel like we did that last year, maybe. Um Right, okay. So what so the question here is like like you know, I think like seems obvious, I think, right? What's the Hava Amina and what is the relationship uh between these uh these two behaviors?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_10I mean the first one does seem really obvious, right? If you if you love wronging your friend, no one likes being wrong. So if you so if especially if you love wronging your friend, then of course you're gonna get into fights with him, obviously. I mean, I'll tell you what I'm thinking of just as an example, and you can tell me if you're thinking of a different example here. Like, there is a category of like the annoying high school kid who's like annoying to everybody, but he's even like annoying to his friends, whether it's like you know, like teasing him in a mean way or like always like pranking him, you know, and like I feel like that kind of person tells himself that I can get away with this without actually causing a real fight, but he can't. But I don't know if that's what this is talking about. Or let's say another example is there are people who let's say, okay, I'm sure we all know someone, hopefully we're not one of these people, but there's they're all there, there is a certain type of person who always flakes out on commitments, you know. So they they they are well, I guess that's not loving wronging their friend. I was gonna say, but there's a certain obliviousness where like they think that they can get away with it, even though it's frequent, but they tell that they they create a narrative like, oh, but this person's my friend, they'll forgive me, or something like that, you know. Like I feel like there's some dynamic like that going on.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, if you yeah, so I don't have that intuition for the first half, but I feel like for the second one, I mean, it seems like at least to me, like the Mida of haughtiness, like that's what they're oblivious to. Like, I think that like the Mida in and of itself, like, yeah, like they do think that, you know, speaking to people that way, that's how it should be, because you know, they're on, you know, whatever pedestal. So I think that the second half makes a lot of sense. But I don't know about it.
SPEAKER_10I actually think the opposite for the second half. Okay. Um, so what I think is it's it's not talking about someone who's haughty. I think it's talking about someone who is speaking in a haughty way. Okay. And I think what they tell themselves is they tell themselves, since they're not actually speaking out of haughtiness, then they're not gonna get the consequence, you know. So let's say, for example, what this would be is is like like let's say, for example, you are a new employee in a workplace that there's a bunch of people who have seniority, and like you have a good idea that you want to share. So you share the idea, and it's not at all coming out of haughtiness. It's like you you're doing it to want to you you want to help the company, but the people around you perceive it as being haughty, they're still going to treat you like a haughty person, you know. And you might say that that I don't want to say that our second half here is um uh well, actually no, it might work. One who ha merim kol pislepief kid derech gase ruach. It could even just be drawing attention to yourself in a situation where you will be perceived as haughty, you know. Um, or let's say here's another example is that, you know, thankfully, we I I come from a culture in yeshiva where like questioning your rabbin is considered to be like good, you know, but there are cultures where like that is considered to be the height of disrespect. So if you're in a situation like that where you you know you speak in a way that is perceived as being haughty, you're gonna get shot down uh as if you are actually haughty. Yeah, yitsi.
SPEAKER_08Um, I was actually understanding the second half of the Mitsudas David that he is raising his his voice in a haughty manner because the last part of it says that ends true before Shavar ki mutar lavala bavur hagayva. So that sounds like there's actual haughtiness, not just the appearance of it.
SPEAKER_10All right, I definitely hear that. So I'll I'll take one step back. I'll say you can interpret the pusuk this way. I I agree that Mr. Davi is not saying this, but I think you can interpret the Pusuk this way.
SPEAKER_08Okay.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. That's a good point, though. So now does this help us either way? Does this help us? Yeah. So I guess what do you have to say for that? I still think you have to make a similar move with that. In other words, this guy thinks Okay, well, uh let's put it this way. Part of this depends on what the puzzle is assuming. If the puzzle is not assuming that he knows the point that pride goes before the fall, so then it could be teaching us that idea. But if he already knows that, that that haughtiness is going to lead to fall, so then his mistake is he thinks that speaking this way is not gonna trigger the same consequences. You know, like why does pride go to the fall before the fall? Because either you're overestimating your own abilities or you're overestimating your the importance of your place in reality. In other words, like either I I think I'm greater than I am, and therefore I make decisions on that basis, then I fail, or I assume reality is gonna work out the way that you know in my favor because I assume that I have this central place in reality. So that's how actual haughtiness leads to a fall. Is there a thing that that haughty speech that the the the combo of the haughtiness and the speech leads to fall?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, you see? Isn't there another way that haughtiness leads to fall that you're just kind of putting a target on your back? Like if people see that this guy's puffing himself up, right? That people aren't gonna like that and want to start tearing him down. Right.
SPEAKER_10So it's the social consequence that is.
SPEAKER_08I wonder if that could be what the Matsuda Stephen.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, that could be, and that fits in better with the first half, right? Because the first half is also talking about social dynamic here.
SPEAKER_08Right, it's like people who they're he's not trying to do anything negative with his haughtiness. He's like, Okay, where's coming source, people ignore me or but there's this reality of people not liking it and fire because of that?
SPEAKER_10So the second half is describing the reality that if you speak uh haughtily, even if your intention is not to antagonize others, they'll still want to bring you down. Um, okay, and then so the question is, yeah, what's the first half to Yaria?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, just a question. What what what would be an example of speaking haughty, but that's not your intention?
SPEAKER_10I mean, how would that mean how would it even work? Like no, no, no, so again, I I I've used this example before, but like when uh there was a year in yeshiva when like there were a bunch of guys who came into Rafpaysachir and from a different yeshiva, and they all thought they knew how to learn better than he did, you know? So like they were like like basically like spouting off what they thought were the like these great svaras, you know, these great theories. And it's not like they were trying to pick on people or anything like that, but we were just all annoyed by this, these, these, these like young whippersnappers who like think that they know how to learn better than our Roshijva, like, you know, so like people are gonna want to shoot them down, and they did get shot down, you know.
SPEAKER_09You know, that that's that's kind of interesting because I I I would I would argue that they may not necessarily be in intentionally haughty, but but there is still an element of haughtiness. Like, I'm I'm trying to separate the speech of haughtiness versus you know uh versus you know what the conscious or subconscious uh you know message is, or or what what what the intent is. I mean, I'll give you an example. Like I think that sometimes in order for you to convey a certain you know message to someone, like the content might be haughty, uh but but but it doesn't necessarily mean you are haughty.
SPEAKER_10So I wonder if that is well that's what I was trying to say, but uh Yeti's pointing out, and I think that works for the puzzuk, but Yeti's pointing out that that this guy has haughtiness, and that's and the consequences are coming from the haughtiness via the speech. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna just write down my my idea here is my interpretation, because I think mine is and yours are the same or uh or very similar of the puzzle uh inspired by Matudas Dabin.
SPEAKER_09Because that'll be a good haughtomina though, because Right. Yeah, yeah, that's what even that on itself is a problem, right?
SPEAKER_10So so the way I'm saying it is the guy in the second half isn't actually haughty, um, therefore, oh sorry, he isn't actually haughty, uh, but just speaks in a way that might be perceived that way. Okay, so uh his hava meena is that since he's not actually haughty, then he won't get the pride goeth before the fall, um consequences. Oh, that is not he's about consequences, conse consequences, okay. Um Pussy therefore tells him that that as long as his speech is perceived as haughty, uh he'll get the same target on his back uh because he'll he'll attract uh negative attention and cause people to want to bring him down. And so this is the I was saying in terms of the manner, but content also. Like I think, you know, I think it works.
SPEAKER_09Yeah, I mean you want to say but but there's a question on that though, because the question is what would the alternative be? Meaning like if you have to do this in a specific situation, I mean, yeah, you're probably doing this to come to get a message of course, but it's necessarily the moment. So is that is that a bad thing? What what's the alternative?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, the alternative is you find alternative ways to do it, right? Like, uh, like for example, um, in you know, there who says that you have to announce this idea in front of all of your your senior co-workers? Why can't you meet with your boss in private or email him, you know? Um, or let's say, let's say you are, um, you know, this is another common thing is that people will often try to uh point out mistakes of other people, you know, and they'll point it out like it's a mistake, you know, and they'll have this thing of like, well, I want someone to point out my mistake, so I'll point out your mistake. Well, maybe don't point it out as a mistake, maybe pitch it as a way to improve the company, or maybe do it in a way that doesn't embarrass the person. Like, there are many, many ways. I think only someone who is like so egocentric that they don't think that their speech causes uh consequences would just like put out the content and say, like, people should just deal with it. Like, like there are ways to speak that don't warrant negative attention, and you should try to like take all those routes.
SPEAKER_09Right. So trying to give a very specific uh case like scenario, like let's say you're you're you're talking with a potential client, right? And you want to let them know, like, look, I have successes in in history, therefore I'm a good candidate to for you to hire me.
SPEAKER_14Yeah.
SPEAKER_09And because I have these reviews, whatever, I have history behind me, like I've done a good job. So my question is that that can be perceived as high, but why are you talking about your accolades or like whatever it is? But that's also necessary to do, and it's not like you're publicizing this like you're trying to get the job. So I mean, is it necessary?
SPEAKER_10I mean, I'll tell you one thing. No, it's not, it's not. Um, I'll I'll tell you, I already got you gotta use your mislake thinking here. Think are there other ways to accomplish the same result without you doing it in a way that's gonna be perceived as haughty? So I'll I'll tell you a shocking fact, which I don't know, Rifty, maybe you know when this stopped, but you know, presidential um candidates did not use to campaign. It was considered to be like beneath their you know, their honor to advocate for themselves, you know. So I know that there are many cases where instead of you putting forth your accomplishments, you find some other way to make your accomplishments known, you know, whether it is someone who is the friends with the with the company, like mentioning to them, oh, there's this candid that I know. You know, there are other ways to do it that that are not uh you know that are not um as in your face. And I don't know why you're putting it in terms, see, I think there's a mistake here. You're you're putting it in terms of of black or white. No, that's not how decisions work. There are there are shades of gray, there are other ways, indirect ways to do things. And what this is saying, and look, if you are in a situation where the only way to do this is is is to risk being haughty, so then you have to do it or don't do it. But like it's not all situations are there's only one way to do it. I just that's just like crazy thinking.
SPEAKER_09I'm not saying it's all situations, I'm just saying like when you're talking to your potential customer or client, like you want to let them know like you have history behind you. Like, I you could I don't know if I mean how else you're gonna get the business.
SPEAKER_10Do you know how many people, Ariel, get their business from word of mouth?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, fine. That is one way of getting busy, but do you know how hard it's just to send yourself getting business that way?
SPEAKER_10There's a lot like I don't look Ariel, there are so many marketing books about how to how to market yourself without triggering negative emotions in the person.
SPEAKER_09But yeah, but even in marketing, that's called social proof. Okay.
SPEAKER_07Can I jump in?
SPEAKER_09Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. I was just gonna, I mean, I am not in marketing. Okay. But I will say that like just from the conversations I have had with people that are in that field um and my own experiences, I just I do feel that like honestly, and a lot of times like actions speak louder than words. And I think that like having to prove yourself, like this need, like, I think it a little bit like does turn people off because I feel like the thought is like, okay, well, like, why are you like putting this in my face so much? You know? Right.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. I mean, I'll tell my favorite story. Okay, my favorite story from uh this is from one of uh Chip and Dan Heath's books. Um, and I forgot which book it was now. Um, but there's this guy who was working at a um a uh hospital supply production company or something like that. And uh it was this company that owned a lot of or no, it wasn't production, it was it was acquisition and distribution. So, like the the role of the company was to buy a bunch of different medical supplies from different suppliers and then and then like sell them to the hospitals or whatever, you know. So this guy who was like a new employee noticed that that these different suppliers that that they were paying radically different prices for like the same uh object from different different you know companies or whatever, you know. So he thought about like bringing this to his boss's attention, but then he ran into this problem, which is that like, oh, they're just gonna dismiss him because he's just like this new employee. So what he did is he took uh he took uh latex gloves, which was one example, okay, and he took like 60 latex gloves, each one from a different supplier, and he put their price tags on them. Okay. So like this one was$13. This one was like five dollars, you know. So all these gloves had price tags on them. And before a meeting, he just dumped them on the table that everyone was going to be meeting at. Okay. So all the head honchos came in, they picked up these gloves and saw that the price tags were on these gloves, and they're like, what's going on with this? And then they realized, oh, we're paying radically different prices for these different gloves. And then they said, Who's responsible for this? And then they found the guy, you know. So, Ariel, I think the the one of the marketing tricks is you always want to let the results speak for themselves so that you don't feel like you're bragging about yourself. So that's like a general thing. Well, I'm not gonna get into marketing discussion right now. There are many ways. There's a Cokman of marketing, you know. I know you you have books, read them, you know, uh, you'll you'll find ways. Um, can we work out the first half of the puzzle, though, according to this? Um, why do we need to be told that if you first of all, what's this kind of person who loves wronging his friend? And why does he need to be told that of course it's gonna be lead to a quarrel? I mean, one reason a person loves wronging their their friend is that they're taking advantage of them, you know? Um, and they think that that maybe that maybe that's a that's the idea here is that that there are people who you know, let's say you have a friend who's just really, really nice, and you know, you you always take advantage of them. Um, and you tell yourself, oh, like, you know, they're either they're a nice person or like they're they can take it, or the relationship, and but in reality, you're just breeding hostility, and that's gonna erupt into full-on quarrel at some point.
SPEAKER_07Would the khidish from the first half be um related to like pesha specifically? Like I feel like interpreting that like more mighty.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, right. I mean, I I the way I'm taking it now is like Pesha would be any being out of the Havero um wrong wrongdoing. You know, not Pesha like rebellion, I don't think. I think that's much, much harder. I don't think I don't think you can like I think that yeah, I think that's even harder than what we're trying to do now. Stephanie, you have an idea for this?
SPEAKER_06Uh yeah, just adding to what you said, I think wronging can also like mean like joking, because sometimes you like joke with your friends, you put them down like to you know, joking, but you can sometimes take it too far and like if you don't check in with each other, then you won't know that you're like making them actually feel bad.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, so the first half is talking about someone who continually wrongs their friend, thinking that thinking either I'm gonna put both, either that they can get away with it because of who their friend is, or the nature of the relationship, or the lightness of the transgression, okay, uh, you know, other things like that, or because um uh oh, I guess that includes all of it, right? Fine, okay. Yeah. So now we got now we've got uh a pattern here, right? Because I think here, I mean this is kind of in the in the territory of what we've covered earlier, which is that I do think that these are things where where you don't realize that there are automatic social consequences, right? Uh like the the the main idea, uh we can say this better like this, but like, you know, these are two actions that should be regarded as having automatic uh negative social consequences. Um and and uh the message is that you should not uh excuse yourself from doing these thinking that you'll you know uh you know, because you think you'll avoid the consequences, because you think you'll avoid the consequences. Uh now I I would like to get it tighter than that, but I do think that's like the the thrust of the idea that he's saying is that you know, wronging your friend continually, if you if that's a uh a tendency, you will end up like provoking them and getting into conflict. And then if you speak haughtily, that is going to uh uh you know um to uh create Ayanhara and they're gonna bring you down. Um I should I'm sure we could work on this more. I just want to show you this one more idea from the Raw Bag, uh, which I uh did I translate with Chad GPT, I haven't checked it yet. Um, okay. Mishu oev limto pesha bivarin, someone who loves to find fault in things, that are said to him, oh yasu, um, or that are done, the doctic behem, bezeha ophen, and he's you know, he he is uh medoctic with them, right? He's he uh is punctilious or like uh scrutinizes them, but scrutinized doesn't really capture it. He's like exacting, right? He's exacting it, um, being uh being exacting with them in such a way. Um such a person will love quarrel and dispute. This is going to generate machlocus mag be a pisfo and someone who raises his uh doorway, to look down at matters, but sad sheyasim at putting himself on a higher plane, that will cause him to find fault in matters. That's sorry, that the he's um uh he he is owed a lot of covod. Uh he seeks breaking. This will cause great bad things to happen to him. It took this language from due to the perfection of the mushroom, uh, yikarish mata vie shaber. So he's saying it's a doorway that is up on high, like you walk out of the door and then you fall down. Okay. So uh the reason why I was attracted to this for a bug, what do we call this kind of person in modern slang? Someone who loves finding fault in what people say and what they do, and who puts themself up on a higher level to judge and to find fault in things, hoping that that and then feeling that they they deserve a higher cover. Yeah, Yeti. Probably like a know-it-all or a smart. Okay, I think it's a little bit more than that. I do think that there is a know-it-all component to it. There's a slang term, and unfortunately, you could argue it's a sexist slang term, but I I just don't know of the male equivalent. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
SPEAKER_05A Karen.
SPEAKER_10A Karen. Okay, this is a Karen, right? So I think this is the definition of Karen because Karen's are always being medoctic on things and finding fault that you shouldn't say this, and then that this is wrong, and like you, you how can you do this to me? And like, and they're putting themselves, well, you know, if do you know who I am? You know, like it's so this is this is Mishle against Karen, right? Um, so so Karen's get consequences. That's the main idea. Okay. Um yeah, Karen would not like these in Michle. Yeah, that's true. Okay. Um, yeah, so so so the interesting thing here, but let's take it seriously here, okay, is like like you know, assuming so the question is like this, okay. Assuming a Karen would be open to Michle, okay, what exactly is this puzzle colour saying to her? I I think this is a a good uh good idea. And I think in order to understand this, you have to think about what she thinks she's doing, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_05I'm not sure if I'm exactly answering your question, but I think usually um such people come from like a trying to do like like a morally superior slash slash righteous, self-righteous um angle. So like they think that they're like having like a positive effect on their reality, and it up it's the complete opposite exactly.
SPEAKER_10It backfires, right? Okay, good. Yeah, Rivki.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I was gonna say like the same thing, but she doesn't realize she's like making it much worse for herself.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, even the worst Karen, okay, um thinks that her her her Karen-ness is going to improve the situation, uh, but she doesn't realize that not only will she make this situation worse, but she'll she'll carry that tendency to uh create problems into every interaction she she has, you know. So like like this is not serving her. Okay. Like I think that's like the the the the angle. And and and again, and the unfortunate thing is that she's not gonna realize this because part of being a Karen is blaming all problems on other on other people, you know. Um, so unfortunately, she won't realize this because part of being a Karen is the type of self-righteousness, uh, you know, moral or not, earned or not, you know, rational or not, that that causes her to blame all problems on other people. Yeah, Rachel?
SPEAKER_14Rachel? I don't know if you accidentally hit your uh hand raise, but okay.
SPEAKER_10All right, um, you can interrupt me if you need to. I think let's stop here. Let's just review and then we'll call it a night. Um okay, so we have oh Stephanie?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, just a quick question. So if this is talking to the Karen's or to us who could be Karens, how are we supposed to know that we are being a Karen?
SPEAKER_10Right. So that's a good question. Um that's a good question here. Hold on. How if this is talking, I don't know who it's talking to, but uh like I might be talking about warning you about about Karens, but if it's talking to the Karens, how how are they supposed to know that they're Karens?
SPEAKER_14Anyone want to answer that? I feel like it's just no.
SPEAKER_10But they don't know. The Karens don't know that they're Karens.
SPEAKER_09Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_10Right. So it is interesting. I mean, I I again I don't know how what your odds are here, but like you know what kind of reminds me of, it's like if you know someone who is perpetually breaking up in their relationships and they always have the same types of like reasons that they give, then at a certain point it could dawn on the person that the problem is not all the other people, it's them. So like I would say the greatest hope. So, first of all, first of all, okay, there is a uh there's a positive that says that she's not gonna get it. Um uh tikfa laksial. Um, that'd be a great name for an organization that helps Xilin. Uh um, uh neither you can do that. Um, so it says Raisa, this is in Mishlay 2612. Ra isa ishkaumbainov. Have you seen a person who was watching? In his own eyes, take about the Casila Mimeno. There's more hope for the Casil than for him. Okay. So the thing is is that that you know there's pro sorry, there's there's probably little hope for the Karen because she is a ha hama beineha. Okay. Um however if she notices that that every place she goes has the same kinds of problems, then maybe there's potential uh for her to realize that that the cause is her. Okay. Unlikely though. Uh so I don't know if it's actually likely, Stephanie, for her to for the Karen to be able to. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Can I can I add to that?
SPEAKER_10Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_07I think like a little similar to what you were saying, uh, the first thing that came to my mind when she asked the question was like, you know, when you the definition of inside insanity is when you like try the same thing over and over again and expect different results. And I feel like that's kind of like the Karen here. And if she eventually realizes like your results are not changing, something like that.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good way to put it. Is like uh um maybe she can recognize the insanity of trying the same thing and getting different results. Yeah. Uh yeah, Racheli.
SPEAKER_05Um this also this rob made me think of like careers where people have like a critical um position in society, like someone or someone who is engaged with criminals who's not a criminal themselves, like someone who works in law or police enforcement or is a social critic or commenter or whatever is gonna, I guess it could just be like a warning for them. Like, like this kind of life inherently involves a lot of conflict and stress.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. So the only thing that I'm realizing now that may uh beg to differ with that is uh loving fault, right? So I think the Karen's love finding fault because it does indulge that morally superior thing. I think you can be the type of person who's in a career like that and love it. And you could also be the type of person who's in it and relates to it in a much more clinical way, or who um is a genuine, like a genuine critic, you know, may end up criticizing things more, but they also appreciate what good quality things are. And if they can relate to it from that angle, then like uh then I don't think they would necessarily have this. Also, it depends on where their ego is in in here. So I think, yeah, you're right. There's a danger zone in setting yourself up like that, uh, but it's not inherent. Yeah. Okay, let's just review and then we'll call it a night. Um, I was wondering like, why do I have more energy tonight? I was like, oh, because we changed the class and uh it's still an hour uh an hour earlier, but I I I still want to stop now. Okay, so we had a lot of ideas from people. Let's see if I can get all of them. So we had my dad's idea, which is that loving pesha, meaning crime, usually would result in worrying about being caught. But if you're Mogbia Pisco, if you're like bragging about it, um then sorry, but uh, but there is a pleasure in in being uh in like getting away with it, and that is gonna lead you to brag about it, and that's gonna lead to being uh to the conflict of the authorities or whoever you wronged and then of being broken. Then we had Seth's first idea, which is that it's talking about the bully uh and warning you against the person who likes picking a fight, and uh it's specifically warning against people who think that the only reason the bully is gonna pick on them is because they they did something to to uh you know attract it, but no, bully, bully, bully's gonna bully. Um and then the second idea uh had to do with the language of um of a similar type of person of drawing people into a fight. Um and you could tell that from their their face and avoid them similarly. Uh Rivke's idea, well, we didn't finish Ariel's ideas, but the two good halves were about um just rebelling against authority and it kind of not mattering about the particulars. Um, and then the second half was about um about like uh signaling to the world that you are better because of your what you're doing with your doorway, and that's gonna cause people to want to bring you down. Isaiah had this idea that if you love Pesha, sorry, if a person loves Pesha, you might think, oh, I can still be in their vicinity or be in a relationship with them. And as long as I don't love Pesha, then I don't I'm not gonna get their consequences. But no, you're you they're gonna draw you into their conflict and into their consequences. Uh Rivki's idea was really both halves are about people who are um not realizing uh the effects that they're gonna have on other people. Um uh and it's pointing out that, like, yeah, if you have this quality, it will lead to people getting hurt, um, whether you like it or not. Um, and uh, and therefore you need to, you know, you need to take that into account as the person who the puzzle was talking to, and then you need to take this into account if you know people like this. Alex's idea is is about the people who are you know rabble rousers or who like being socially transgressive. And it's saying if you find someone like that, don't give them ammo, uh, because they'll they'll they'll turn their you know, turn this on you. Uh Yitzi's idea and and my half approach was that um these are two people who are driven by ego, the person who loves Pesha, like you know, bringing other people uh or making himself bigger than other people. And then there's a person who just likes, you know, showing off, you know, with their wealth or whatever, but neither of them is like going out of their way like the latest to destroy people or harm them, but they're still gonna get the consequences of the ego and come into conflict with other people. Um, Stephanie's idea was that um that the uh this is a good mishlay move, which is that the first half is saying something obvious, which is obviously if you love um uh wronging others, then you're gonna be inviting conflict. But it should be as equally obvious that if you raise your door, then you're going to uh you're gonna get a consequence of being broken as well. And whether you say raising the door is the threshold thing, or like I wanted to say about like being ostentatious, uh Rakheli's idea is that these are two um, or the first half of the idea at least is that um that uh oh the oh is my favorite part of this thing, is that that it means that if you have this quality of ohive pesha, even if it's not coming from ego, it's going to lead to conflict and then they're equally paired. Um, and then there's the the drash idea. Uh Matsudis David, we said, is this idea that um that it's talking about someone who wrongs their friend thinking that it's not gonna have any consequences because of reasons, or speaking haughtily and thinking person thinking like, oh, well, you know, I have a really good idea or whatever. No, these are two actions that are going to have automatic consequences uh socially, regardless of what your intent or the level of your bad meetup is. Uh, we we can still go more in that. And then my hob meaning for the second half is that he's just speaking haughtily, he's not actually being haughty, doesn't matter in terms of social consequences. And then there is the Rob who said that uh if you're a Karen, you're gonna get consequences, uh, and you think you're doing this to make things better, but you're really just creating uh perpetual discontent uh and conflict with other people. Okay, good haul tonight. Uh next week should be good. Leanetter, God willing. Thanks for coming and uh next time.
SPEAKER_07Hey Rabbi. Yeah, can you just can you send? I don't know if you sent it, I missed it, but the um donation link thing.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, I will uh it's in the chat, but I'll also post it in the uh in the w um WhatsApp. Uh there it is, yeah. Okay, have a good night.