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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 25:19 - On Unreliable Teeth, Feet, and Friends (Part 1)
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Mishlei 25:19 - On Unreliable Teeth, Feet, and Friends (Part 1)
שֵׁן רֹעָה וְרֶגֶל מוּעָדֶת מִבְטָח בּוֹגֵד בְּיוֹם צָרָה:
Length: 45 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (3/11/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we began working on another "straight-up mashal, Anshei Chizkiyahu"-style pasuk. We were a little shaky on the translation at first, but once we settled on that, we were able to develop two really nice approaches: one original and one based on Ralbag. Tomorrow (בג"ה) we'll see what the other meforshim have to say!
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מקורות:
משלי כה:יט
מצודת ציון/דוד
תרגום כתובים
תרגום רס"ג
רלב"ג
רבינו יונה - משלי ג:ו
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Okay, we're back to Mishlay 25. We're on 2519. Another straight up muscle. Shane Roa verregal muades miftak boge biomsara. And lest you think that roa is just a funny way of saying bad, it's not. It's from Ra, right? So uh anyone want to translate?
SPEAKER_01Shaky tooth?
SPEAKER_00Uh interesting. Shaky tooth. So I think that is how a lot of them translated. That's what I would have said for Roa, also, right? It's weird that it says uh Ra from break.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_00So a shaky tooth, or I would say a broken tooth. I think those would seem to be two candidates, uh, tooth, the regal mu'ades. Uh so you want to try translating? So that's what I was thinking also, but I I honestly don't know whether the rabbinic Hebrew Mu'ad has is the same as the uh the biblical Hebrew. So the BDB says mu'ad is slip, slide, totter, or shape, which to me seems to be much more in line with the the first app, right? So a um I guess a shaky foot? Yeah, tottering foot, right? Yeah, let's say shaky foot, not like most 11 is shaky foot. That's like intentional, right? Not like you. Uh shaky foot. Um shaky like like unstable, but yeah, unstable might be good, actually. That's probably better. Unstable. Um mivtah bogey beomsara. I think we have to add so is a, and we probably have to add like, right? Like, a shaky tooth, broken tooth, uh, and an unstable foot. So is a mivtach.
SPEAKER_01It's like a secure person, or it's like a noun, right? It's a noun, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01Okay, trust say again. I said trust.
SPEAKER_05Trusted.
SPEAKER_00Um, interesting. Mivtach.
SPEAKER_05Trusted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05It means they're really interesting.
SPEAKER_00So I I would be inclined to say Mivtah.
SPEAKER_04Trust like trust trusting in something, not yeah, like I'd say, I mean, I I I like saying security.
SPEAKER_00Let's see what the Bdb says. Oh, oh, I didn't I didn't look it up. Oh, sorry, I revealed the bogey. Is is the security of a bogey. So uh, you know, Bogat is to act treacherously. Uh how would you translate bogate as a that's a mishalai personality?
SPEAKER_01Oh a treacher?
SPEAKER_00I think traitor is the yeah, right? Uh of a uh I'll just say bogate is a traitor. Um, I'm gonna say mishlay, traitor. Yeah. Um uh beom tsara.
SPEAKER_02Calamity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, of calamity. I always go back and forth about how to translate Sarah. Calamity, distress, uh, yeah, I'm not either way, fine. Okay, so we got Mitsustian says Roa is in Shivira. So he says broken. Uh Kamo to Roim Bashevit Barzel. Mu'ades is in Hakhlaka, the Hashmata. Hakhlata? Isn't that a smooth Haklaka is like smoothing, I thought, right? But what does that have to do with Hashmata? It was like uh like that also is that's Hashmata here is not like um omission, it's like uh like you know, slips out from underneath you, right? Oh, maybe it slips out, slips out. There you go, right? Right. So a slippery foot, right? A slipping foot, slipping foot, maybe okay. Um, sorry, yeah. Uh okay, Sajigun says, Ukishin ruav regal mu'ades, kah miftaha koifair, the um tsara. Okay, so he says it's a co- it's a kofer, right? The the trust of a kofer. Um uh ra'a is ra'ua mis no dedes, right? So that's like shaky, I guess, right? Probably.
SPEAKER_02Um have a word for cofra already.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't know how early Kophers, but it's definitely not in the in the uh Tanakh. Yeah. Using that sense. Yeah, not using that sense. Right, right. But Kopfair. Yeah, it's uh uh um what do you call it? Um yeah, no, but I'm saying like uh Khovartasabba Kopfair on the uh that's the earliest instance, right? That's uh pitch? Pitch. Yeah, right, yeah. Um yeah, right. Uh yeah, biblical Hebrew. Uh it's that's the uh the thing that Fishband came up with, uh CPR. Kover means to cover, it means cover payment and uh removal. Yeah, um that's a way to remember it. Uh so then denial is like I think a rabbinic usage. I don't think that's a biblical usage. Um okay, Muadis is Kiluhavu nakud cholam as opposed to Moades. Oh Mu'ades, okay, fine. Like an appointed or a designated foot, right? That would be yeah. Looking like Moadas is like it, it is slipping, I guess. Oh, I thought it would be a different word. Like Mo. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. But like Moe, like when we say like Moadim has nothing to do with slippage, right? So I thought that's what he was saying. I don't know. Okay, the Targum says Ichhina Bishta, so like a bad tooth. All right, that's very, very blunt uh translation there. Virglam Muada, which is gonna be a literal translation, Hichna Savre de Bazoza Bioma de Akasa. Um, all right, fine. So that's the uh uh that's I think that's just a translation. I'm not gonna try to derive stuff from that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Maybe he's literally roa like actual, like ra.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, you're right, you're right. Okay, that that's a good point. That's a good point. Um, so so it's funny. Either, either the the text that he was going off of had it vocalized differently, and he looked at the Hebrew as Ra, or he's interpreting Roa by tooth as bad. Yeah, but either way, you're right. That's a good point. Okay. Um, all right, let me just move these here. Okay, so we have the English uh R-scroll, like a broken tooth and a slipping foot. Oh, that's what we have. So is a trust betrayed on a David's distress. It's interesting. I thought a bogate is has to be the person, but uh miff talk a trust is good, right? So uh I'll say trust and then uh David's distress rehearses like a loose tooth, um, and a slipping foot is the promise of a faithless man. So he takes it as a bogate on a day of need. You must mean need like you're in trouble need, not like uh, you know, um just stomp need. Okay, altar says a shattered tooth, uh, and a shaky leg, treacherous refuge. So he also is making it a um an adjective, right? Um treacherous refuge on a day of trouble. And he's a shaky the translation means moedes, uh stumbling or shaky, the miseratic muedes uh designated or warned against uh the difference being only with the vocal rotation. All right, fine. So let's just move this up here. I don't know. It to me it seems like this is gonna have to be something that that uh like visibly the tooth is not doing what it's supposed to be doing, like it's either broken or it's it's wiggly. Uh I think if it were emphasizing the pain, like obviously they had cavities back then, but if it was emphasizing the pain, it would probably say more directly the pain. So I'm gonna go with like some sort of visual, not visual, uh physical, yeah, visual, physical, like uh tooth disability. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I mean it might extend to cavity also, but it sounds like it's looks like it's supposed to be doing good.
SPEAKER_00It's just that we might but but again, I I think if you're gonna take the mu'ades as shaky, then I think it is trying to say shaky tooth, shaky foot. I think those are like I think that's intentional. I think that's flame shot. Um, and that's why I'm more inclined to say that it means shaky than broken, because I mean again, assuming that mu'ades means slip slipping, then like unstable, not firm, something like that. That's like what I would be inclined to say. Yeah. Okay, fine. So well, I guess that's one question, which is I guess like what are the similarities? I guess what what is the uh what is the intended similarity and difference uh between Shane Roa and Regel Muades? Okay, in other words, like are these supposed to be uh uh similar? Like essentially similar, essentially similar, like um i.e. um unstable versions of what should be firm, uh or uh is the difference being highlighted? Yeah. Okay. Similar to the question we had about the weapons in the last puzzle two weeks ago, which is that it was three different weapons, and so you had Mefarshman, who seemed to just be fine with saying oh it's just three weapons, and others that were calling attention to the differences. Yeah. Yeah, what is a bogade uh in this context? Yeah, so here's the thing also, um, and this only I don't know why this is only occurring to me now. Maybe it's because we did not have, let me just look back at the chapter. Um we've had I'm just looking at how many Mishleik archetypes we had. We've had Russia and we've had Chacham. Yeah, I I felt like we didn't have a lot of archetypes here. So one question I just have not had is like, are the archetypes in the Achiehiskiyahu Psukim the same or different? That's like a you know, could easily be, especially see, this is an interesting thing. If you know we know that, for example, um just let me just make sure my memory is right about this. I believe we established that Shlomo is the one who invented the word Aveal. That makes sense. Let's see, Aveal uh no, that's just Avilim. But I mean, okay, uh let's hold on, let me just look at Aveal. I feel like there's a way to look at the Tarshim in a way that does uh includes all the forms automatically, but my settings are not right. Let's see.
SPEAKER_05Tarshim?
SPEAKER_00The Tarshim is the uh that graph. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05What does it literally mean?
SPEAKER_00Tarshim graph? I think I don't know. I mean Tarshim is coming from the word Roshen, right? Which is like a representation or imprint. Yeah, yeah, imprint is is the usual one. Um but what did I just oh just type Avil. All right, yeah. Um, hold on, I just want to see this. I'm just not because we need it, but yeah, I think that's uh I don't think it comes from the same word as L. Uh yeah, you know, but while we're waiting, you know, anyone remember the uh Malbin uh etymology of Evil? Ulai, right? The old Evil M are skeptics, right? Because they're like, oh maybe, maybe this, maybe that. Yeah. Um okay, this is too too long. Anyway, what I was gonna say is that if Shlomohamela, hold on now we ugh, okay. This is I don't know why it's that's it's weird that does this. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there I'm again, I'm sure there's settings to change it, but uh I just want to I just want to fool. All right, here we go. Um Eveal. I just want to see, make sure I'm not misquoting a stat. Oh, okay. Uh well, we'll see if that's right. Uh 11. I got I don't know if I trust this. Oh no, okay. No, he okay, never mind. I was wrong. All right, good. I'm glad I checked it then. Yeah. So my point though is that Shlomel definitely established a vocabulary of archetypes. So it's not surprising to me that how how much light later was his Kiahu? Jewish kings. I w uh uh yeah, I want to say 200. 200, 250. Why is this not working? King Timeline. Timeline of Jewish Kings. Is this the one that has the thing? Hold on. Uh I don't know if this is accurate, but I got this from like art school or something like that. Uh Shlomo, let's say 970 and Khzkiah, who where is Chizkia who's like 200? Yeah, around 200, yeah, fine. Right. So, like 200 years, especially if you have a founder of a wisdom culture like like Shlomo, like in the early, early uh part of the dynasty, it's not surprising that the terms could evolve and change. So I think that should just be on our radar methodologically, that bogate here might not be the same thing as bogeid uh in in the first part of uh of Mishleigh, whereas you would expect internal consistency, right? Like within within Shlomo's Mishlei. So I do have a working definition of Bogate, um, but I'll I'll hold off on that for now. But it is an archetype. Okay. I guess, yeah. But what is the promise of the yeah, what what is meant by I'm just gonna say what is meant by Miptoch Bogey is like I don't even know if promise I guess like like factually, how do we translate this and what does it mean, yeah, Isaac?
SPEAKER_04Um is there is there something sorry, is uh maybe in addition to number question number one. Um is there something to be gained by the fact that there's multiple mashalim instead of one? I know we saw that last TOSIC also.
SPEAKER_00Are these uh are the first two um supposed to be regarded as two mashalim or or or two examples of of one? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What is the expectation of the myth of the bogey on the Yom Tsara?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um what is expected on uh of the bogeyed on a Yomtsara? Um yeah, and I guess hold on a second, what is what is yeah, I I would just want to clarify that also, which is like what is the is the Haba Amina, okay, uh that he'll be like a non-bogeid? Oops sorry, like a non-bogeid, uh, or that the bogeyed would behave differently, right? Um in other words, like like is it that you know that this guy is a bogey, but you think, oh, even though he's a bogey, then then he'll do this, he's reliable, or is it that you just classify him as a non-bogeid? I just want to go back just to um uh methodologically point this out here. So if you get you know, in terms of is it too much on or one? So you could ask, if it were just one, why would he give two instances? So the simple answer is just multiple examples. But I think there's a more nuanced answer. Why would why would he need to the common denominator? Yeah, common denominator. In other words, there there could be, if you just said Shane Roa, you might think it's just a painful tooth, but then regal moides shows you that it's like unreliable. So it's like the Venn diagram, you know, um, the common denominator. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
SPEAKER_02Does he input always fell, or like sometimes it's supposed to be the Vogue? Is he always okay?
SPEAKER_00Right, right. So um uh to what extent uh is this always the result in the mushall and the nimshal?
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_00Because the in the mu in the in the uh mushall, then it does seem like these are consistent in their unreliability. In other words, like it's not like if you have a tooth, sometimes it chews and sometimes it doesn't. Or like uh, I don't know. I mean maybe maybe that is the point. I don't know. Yeah, uh, that's your question, I guess. Yeah, Mosha.
SPEAKER_05Uh why assuming that it is someone coming to the bogey, why is he going to the bogey?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. Um why decision? Yeah, why would this guy rely on the bogey uh in the first place? Uh yeah, and again, we gotta assume that you know that it's a bogade because otherwise you can't apply the PASSU. But why so then given that, yeah, I guess given that he knows this guy is a bogade, why would he rely on him in the first place? What why would he rely on him in the first place? Or turn to him, I guess. Yeah, rely on him in the first place. Okay, yeah. I guess the question also is what is the uh what is the consequence exactly, right? What is the consequence? You know, so at the very least, it's gonna be that the thing that you're hoping for is not gonna happen. Is it worse than that? You know, I guess beyond not getting the uh benefit you hoped for. Yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_04Uh is this someone relying on the bogate, or is this the bog the bogey relying on or like having security in something else?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I also when I just read the words, I thought it could be read both ways. I'm gonna assume that it's relying on the bogate. I don't think it I don't know if I could prove that grammatically, but I don't think it would it would uh uh I just don't think it's a candidate for like a primary peerish. Yeah, to say it the other way. Yeah, David.
SPEAKER_06Um what is being added by the this is related to the question, what's being added by the mashal? Because it sounds like you're just saying just like someone that's unreliable, so too is a trader.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right. So okay, so let's just ask this in the RL way, right? Uh isn't this obvious? Right? Uh isn't it yeah, I guess isn't it obvious uh that you shouldn't rely on a trader? Right? What does the muscle add? Yeah. Uh W, is that a new question? I didn't see if your hand went up and down.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, new question. Maybe it's related, but um is it known that this person is a bogey? And also is it known that this Shane and Rygo, are they known that they're also non-revolution?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna say you have to say yes because if you don't know he's a bogey, then there's no way to implement the puzzle. Other than make sure the guy's not a bogate, you know, like which is uh yeah, I I like I I assume in any case, then any case, anytime the the Michael gives you a warning about a bad mishlayc actor, the assumption is that you know or can know that it's the person. If you've never met the guy in the first place, then there's just nothing you can do.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I feel like, oh, I guess the question is what what is the yom tsara, right? In this context. Is the yomsara in this context? And I guess also why yom instead of just Sara. Now it could just be that that's just how you say, you know, at a time of tsara or whatever, but yeah, oh that's a separate question. Okay, let's let's uh I think we got all the questions here. I mean, I guess the what's the practical decision? What is the practical uh application? I mean, it should be pretty obvious. Don't rely on a bogey, but uh you know, beyond uh don't rely on a bogeid. And you I also think that the Rabbin Mosquitz question is is is good here. What is the subject of this PUSAC? Um what is the subject of this PUSUK? In other words, I could see it being an idea about the bogey, but I could also see it being an idea about bitachon, uh like misplaced bitachon, and that the bogid is just uh uh an example of that. Yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_04Sorry, I think I'm still not clear why um mtach bogeid is not the bogey being bogiach and something.
SPEAKER_00Just because it does not, to me, it doesn't make sense that he would write about that. It's like saying like the quality of a boogeid is that he is a traitor. So talking about a traitor doesn't trust very well just does not seem to be oh okay, uh yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. If if that's the only objection I have, I have upshot.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I can't prove it grammatically, but like yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, in other words, anyone who wanted to interpret this as the the the uh bogid's the quality of his own trust, I would call that drush. Unless you're gonna say, like R Scroll always says that bogid means faithless. But like, um I I don't know where I never knew where our R scroll came from. And also um mute while you're uh while you're not talking. Thanks. Um yeah, also um, like if you want to say that let's say like Cidigone, for example, if this is an idea about a co-fair, so then maybe you can say that it's the co-fair's trust in God. But I just it's just not a primary way to go here. Like I I would reject that as a primary way to go. Yeah, Dubit.
SPEAKER_06It's an approach, sure. Okay. Um, so I'm wondering if just like there are certain things within your body, say like a shaky tooth or a slippery foot, that you can rely on when it's not such a huge deal. If you're eating some soft food, if you're eating if you're like standing on kind of solid ground, then you're okay relying on it. Right. And similarly with a bogey, I think that for the most part, I mean he's like helping you work your way to wherever you're working toward. Right. But then just like with those things when it comes to like a really hard-to-chew food or like really treacherous footing that you need to have something solid. If you got too accustomed to relying on this thing that was okay in the nice uh not so pushy times, when it comes to crunch time, I guess pun intended, then you're going to run to problems with this bogate as well.
SPEAKER_00That's a good pun. Okay. Yeah. All right. So um, okay, so that's a great interpretation, though. Okay, so in other words, um uh a shaky, or I guess let's say you should say a bad tooth and a shaky foot can be relied on uh and is often relied on. Um, but what I'm gonna say when it comes to crunch time, um, for example, eating granola or can I just candy is probably the thing that most people will eat. Um uh when it comes to eating candy. Um, I mean, I even I don't eat granola. No, keto friendly granola. Um, when it comes to crunch time, uh that reliance can be disastrous. Okay, so too with the bogate. Um Uh, you know, don't allow yourself to become accustomed to relying on him in low stakes, sorry, not slow stakes, low stakes cases, lest you come to rely on him on uh when when his uh his traitorousness, traitoriousness, traitoriousness. Yeah, his traitorousness will get you in trouble. Um, yeah, this is a great misleadic thing, right? In other words, it is obvious that you shouldn't rely on uh a bogeid if you know that he's going to betray you. Like that, you don't need Mitchell to tell you that. But the problem is you start relying on him in areas where you know he won't betray you, but because and then you you dismiss that part of his nature, or you just turn to him, you know, at a time of need, and then that that ends up getting you in trouble.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, is that yeah, I wouldn't say that I I wouldn't necessarily agree that the the practical takeaway is to not even rely on him, rely on him uh in the low-stakes cases. I think the same way that let's say with a with a if you have a let's say a bad ankle, that you um it's not that you shouldn't ever walk on it, but you have but you have to be you have to always be vigilant of that because then it might fail you and not um not let the fact that it's been you know going fine lull you into a false sense of security.
SPEAKER_00I think that's um I'd say it's more that rather than don't use it as a mishlaycam would not rely on this person as a matter of policy. Obviously, if you have to, then you that's a different case. But I think like it's a bad habit to rely on the bogey because you know they're gonna end up like relying on him in a case where where it really matters. So I think you know whether the mushroom is saying that Isaac, just one second. Whether the mushroom is telling you what David said or whether that's an application of what David said, I think is up for debate. But it I think it definitely isn't at least an application.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I'd say if you're if if you're saying don't rely on him unless you like you know unless you have like no other choice or something, something like that. That I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I you know, but I I also think it depends on how you take the mushroom. For example, there are people who have a bad tooth and they rely on it, and then it like it it actually causes real damage, you know, and so they'd be better off like not relying on it at all at all. Like don't chew on that side of your mouth or whatever. Or another example is is, you know, uh, I have a uh a student who when she was in high school, I mean she still has the condition, when she was in high school, she had this weird condition where um the way she described it once is that um is it your tendons or your ligament limbs, ligaments, I think your tendons are they stretch out and stretch back? Like it's supposed to stretch out and stretch back, and for her, it does it doesn't. So what would the way it would manifest is she would always end up like dislocating her limbs, you know? And so like she could be like running and then it would just dislocate, you know. So I feel like there are certain, I'm not saying that that's what this is, but I mean that's this is an extreme case of this. There are people who uh have a uh a bad foot or a bad limb that they that one they do rely on it, but one false move can end up causing permanent damage or severe pain. So I think that could be part of the muscle. Does that make sense? Yeah, I know okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I'd like to just expand upon like the emotional cognitive. Yeah, I mean, just because he gets accustomed to relying on him in low-stakes cases, why is that gonna lead to him um just relying on him in uh high-stakes indicates? Yeah, meaning shouldn't he know the difference? Right, and he knows this guy's a bogus. I think the point is that since as Deb explained, he's accustomed to relying on him in low-stakes scenarios, uh he will imagine that that this guy won't be bogus and he thinks this guy is a friend and uh uh a reliable source.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he won't get that support. So he's conditioned himself to classify this guy as reliable, yeah, right. Um, and that quality is what causes him to um to turn to him in a time of sorrow. You know, this is nothing, also just uh as a general point about Bitakon. I I mean I've been giving these Bitakon Shirim on Thursday nights uh on Rubin Yona and Bitakhon, like, and also in Tahilima comes up a lot. Like, you really I think people imagine that they can turn on and off their security like a switch. It just doesn't work that way. Like, like the the line in the Rubin Yonah, uh now again, he's talking about Bitakun and Hashem, but um where I just go uh yeah, he's talking about Bitakun and Hashem, but there's a line where he says explicitly, um what is it? Yeah, he says, um uh oh he actually this actually fits in very well. I'll just read in English because I already translated it. Uh this verse adds to what he says, trust in Hashem with all your heart. For there's one who trusts in Hashem in a general sense and believes that everything is in the hands of heaven and trusts in him and does not trust in man nor in his own strength and intellect. Yet he does not bring the matter of trust back to his heart in the particulars, that is, in every action he performs. Therefore, Shlomo said, In all your ways know him, meaning in all the particulars of your deeds, in every way in action, remember him and bring back to your heart that you have no power or ability in that action, and that it is not in your hand, but in the hand of Hashem, and attached to him your hope and your expectation for kindness of uh of Hashem. Concerning this matter, David said, I hope for Hashem, my soul hope, my soul waits for Hashem. Here's the point. Through this um uh habituation, the appetitive soul, which is your psyche, will internalize the security. So that's about Hashem that you have to like bring it down to the level of the particulars. So too, with the guy in our case here, you can't just say, well, I will be selective to know when I can and can't rely on him. No, no, no. If you're always relying on him, you're gonna cultivate a hairgel, a uh uh your psyche will end up taking security in this guy, and that's who you're gonna turn to in a time of uh of tsara. So yeah, then I'm glad you brought that out. Uh David.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, um, a thought together with that, and one other thought as well. I mean, I think aside from like emotionally, then like that's what you are inclined to. Also, again, some ways that might just be all that this person knows, like, he only knows to turn to this one bogey, whether or not it's like security or not, he just actually doesn't know who to turn to, which I think is related to that.
SPEAKER_00Uh, can you elaborate on that? I don't know where or where you're getting that from, that he doesn't know what to turn to. Okay, file. Maybe I'll if there is no other option in the in the scenario here, like let's say, for example, you are a kid who is weak, weak, and vulnerable and powerless, and the only people you have are your parents who are boged in. So, you know, unfortunate, you can't do anything about that.
SPEAKER_06Sure, okay, fine. So maybe I'll say this, second thing I was saying, and maybe it's kind of the same idea that um to whatever extent if you also if you accustom yourself to these small things with the bogey, you will have set up a support system. Your support system rely is existing as one bogeid. And if like now that is the time pressure, you need someone to help you out, or someone like knows your situation well, he's the only one who knows your situation, and now you're stuck. Uh, okay.
SPEAKER_00So that's a good additional point. Additional point um is that from a practical standpoint, so this is not from a psychological standpoint, from a practical standpoint, practical standpoint, um don't make this person into your soul support system. Um uh and get yourself into a situation where nobody else you know knows your circumstances and you're forced uh to rely on this person. Yeah, that's good. And by the way, I think that's another um that is a practical advice where there are application, okay. There are situations in life where for a uh a time period you're forced to rely on a bogade, okay. Um uh make sure you are vigilant enough to to you know uh switch um mivtachim, right? Miv tahim yeah, mivtachim. Um once once other options become available, um they become available, yeah. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think there's another point. I'm not sure how it applies to the city.
SPEAKER_00Sure. But I think this is within this idea or separate idea, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That specifically, I think on the Yum stars when the buggy is most likely struck. It's not just that like randomly it's gonna happen because you don't know what it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00Right. Okay, that's a good point, also. Um, so I don't have to say Ezra Fader anymore because Ezra Kobel can't come to this year anymore. Um from posterity, for posterity. All right. Um so um right. So it's possible that so I'm gonna say two possible. It's possible that Yom Sarah is being highlighted because that's when the consequences affect you most. Uh alternatively, uh, it's possible that that's when the bogey, um, the bogeyed is most likely to uh uh you know to to be betray you, right? Um, like for example, you know, uh when when when the uh the situation is heated, uh he'll he'll prioritize uh himself. Yeah, and I I think that's the thing with the Yom Tsara. To me, Yomtsara, I don't know if this is how it's used, but I always imagine Yom Tsara to be something that affects not just you, like the society. If that's true, then that would be even more where let's say like you know, be uh there's a war, right? And so he's he's he's gonna like look out for himself, or he's gonna like if he's a fair weather friend, the bad weather gets bad, you know. Yeah, uh over you.
unknownWhat do you say? Fair weather friends?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's the expression. Yeah, where like they're friends with you when things are going well, but when when things turn bad, then they they abandon you. It's an English proverb. Yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so um this is about additional point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um that even if you have to be relying on him practic uh relying on the bogey practically um on an individual occasion basis, like let's say, you know, like the example where your uh your kid and your parents are broke dim. Um they like they still shouldn't be w what you're miv talking.
SPEAKER_00You should be trying to uh okay, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you should be trying to figure out some other I think then you should um because of that you should be trying to cut figure out something else to to get some other way to get security. Right. Like you know, I like I think a classic example of this that happens in American society is where where people have like when people when kids have parents who are boged him, they get a job and start making money so that they can move out. Right. They don't continue to rely on on the bogadim.
SPEAKER_00Right. That's good. Let them become your MivTah. Um MivTah. Uh, but you should always you should always be on the lookout for um uh for for like alternatives. So for example, you know, uh start working and making money so that you can become independent as soon as you're an adult. Yeah, that's good. Okay, this is a really good idea. All right, anyone have another approach?
SPEAKER_03I've rejected my drushy approach.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So let's do this. Let's um let's look at uh start looking at Mafarshim, and if we have other approaches, we could do that tomorrow. Um, I still have not conditioned myself to realize that the that these seem to be uh more straightforward than the other. So Kim, and like we we we should uh you know go to Mafarshim earlier. This is Michelet 7. Why am I in Michelay 7? Oh, because it feel um 25 19. Oh yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_04Which is one more thing about the mushle. Yeah, I think a bad foot. This is I think what um Ezra said, I believe. Yeah. About that specifically the umsara. Um if you have a bad ankle, uh it won't make a problem when you're just putting a little bit of pressure on it. But it's when you put a lot of pressure on it, that's exactly when it fails and fails the most catastrophically.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's good. Um so um I'm gonna actually list a couple of these possible mushle um inferences here. Uh so one is that that putting a little pressure on the the bad ankle uh is safe, but when you put too much pressure, uh pressure, that's when it fails. Okay, so too with the bogade um on a Yom Sara. Uh I I have another possibility also. Uh, it's possible that two mashalim are used, sorry, are used for two qualities. Okay, the the bad tooth causes pain, uh, and the bad foot causes injury. In other words, if you fall, you can injure yourself, whereas the bad tooth is just going to be very, very painful. And same thing with the bogade is that um there's the the uh the pain of the the betrayal and the consequence uh of you know the the the consequence the consequence in in reality, right? So I think those are two qualities. Whether that's what the mushroom is saying, I think both those are both true. Um okay, good. Umitsudas David, Shin Roa, Machal. Um okay, now I don't know if that means just like a broken tooth at a time when you're you know grinding food. I don't know if it means that the tooth breaks when you're grinding or the way it behaves when you're grinding, when you're you're chewing. And like a foot that is um slippery at a time when you run on the way, on the path. So too is the security of a bogid when an ace star comes, and that's the time when you need the bitachon. Uh so he's learning the stakes, right? Uh, I think. Or is there yeah, oz uh hubed, and he betrays Oz Bo Boged Oz Bo. He he betrays you then. Kishane Vrego, Ha Bogdin Baesat Surah, like the uh foot, the tooth and the foot that betray you at a time of need. Okay, so the question is is this general enough that like what we're saying just fits in, or is he getting at some idea that like is uh separate from what we're saying?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I'm comfortable saying that he's just uh Does he say the foot and tooth part at the beginning and end?
SPEAKER_00Uh I mean he I don't think he has to say that end part, right? He could just say it's just like that. Yeah, I don't know why he has to say that, especially he's uh you know concise commentator, so I don't know why. Yeah, I I'm comfortable just saying that that that's just giving uh upshot and that ours either ours fits in or or whatever other idea can could fit in. He's just spelling out the mushroom. All right, let's go to Rob Bag next. He's our most Rubino Yono-like Rishon. Uh Hine Habitakum Shishlo La Adam Shivgod Bo Ohavo. So the Bitakum that a person has um that uh when in a person that sorry, he ne habitakum shitam, she yivgod bo oh. I guess in a case where his friend betrays him. So this is Dabka talking about a friend. That's interesting. Okay. Dome lashin hanishbar, I think he laked is like to trip, not to be ensnared, right? Like you, you know, so it's comparable to a tooth that breaks, I think here that breaks when he chews food, and a foot that causes stumbling when he when he walks. Uh, because a person trusts that he will be assisted by his teeth when he takes food. Ubaroglav the eis lehto and his feet when he walks. And in this manner, a person will not have a benefit from the tooth or the foot uh in this in this way. Um to elas ba ohave nezar boba is tsara. So too, a person uh will not have a benefit from his friend when he is not helpful in this time of need. So it's interesting, right? I mean, I don't know how much to lean into this ohavo, but he's definitely I definitely would not have uh put that into the puzzle. Was there another case of ohave here? I mean, but that's not really an ohave. And then reachha. I mean, I guess, you know, look, it is interesting here. In a way, 13 through 19 do seem to have to do with like situations where you're relying on someone. I mean, not all of them, but let's say like sending a um uh a schliach is one, relying on someone for a gift and then they let you down. Um uh I don't know about the air happening part, um relying on someone's hospitality and not realizing that you're jeopardizing that. Um, yeah, so it's not exactly a clean uh cluster here, but uh yeah, I don't know. Yeah, does it seem like he's advertising a low toilet?
SPEAKER_01Like he's focusing on like the type of friend you should have. Yeah. You should make sure your friend is like reliable, it's not going to be these issues. So, like practically when you're in distress configuration, you'll be helpful. Correct.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's good. That's a good way, but okay. So let's just get that down here. So Rob, so this is really about friend selection, yeah, right. Uh, is that um a person can can develop friendships for many reasons, uh, but one of the factors you should keep in mind is that when you select a friend, um uh make sure they're not a bogey, okay, because you will end up wanting or expecting to rely on them at a time of need, and if they're a bogey, uh they won't come through. Yeah. So so the mushroom there is is you expect your teeth and feet to do their job, right? Uh so when they don't, uh it's a huge shock and and you know betrayal, right? So like uh, and then in the Nimshal, we expect our friends to help us when we need it. Yeah, that's an interesting angle for this, right? In other words, David is approaching it as a warning about a bogade, and then just seeing the consequences uh and the psychology, you know, that are at play. But Rah Bog is saying that no, but you know, like a larger perspective of cultivating. See, this is where the what is the subject of the possible uh yeah, right? Is this about boged him or is this about friendships? You know, so I think that's a that's a good that that's a good uh, you know, it's not I Rah Bog, of course, would not disagree with what David is saying, but like Rabag is presupposing all the mechanisms that W is talking about, but then saying the place where you're at risk at this is is if you develop a friendship with someone and you don't like assess this uh you know the this uh this quality.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's interesting here is that like the Robog's whole premise here, I think this works very nicely with first study, is that when you're picking friendships, like you mentioned, it shouldn't just be for these other factors, like things very practical practical benefits they can get out of the exactly, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we correct. And by the way, I'd also say that like uh you know, this is a quality that um could extend to things that are not as close as Oavim, like partnerships of any kind, you know, whether it's a business partnership or uh you know, hiring someone like an employee, like you know, I think I think we said this actually with uh when we were talking about the sending a schlach there. But like I think one mistake is you look at their cap their raw capabilities, but you don't necessarily look at the meetos that the capability is dependent on to actualize. So let's say like someone is a very has a very good business mind, or let's say someone is a very good teacher that you're hiring for a school, but if they I can say this because he's not a Jewish person. We had a guy who was a uh when I started at at Nija, we had a janitor who had been there for a very long time. Um, maybe he was a better janitor earlier, and like he was very good at cleaning, but like I think he was absent for like 50 days of the year. Like, and you can't have a janitor if he's the only janitor in the entire school. You just can't have a janitor who's just not dependable, you know? So like he might be very good at cleaning, but like if he's not dependable, you know, or or uh yeah, uh, you know, same thing with again, this and this could also extend to qualities that aren't the totality of the person. Well, let's say, for example, punctuality, right? That there are there are times when punctuality really matters. And if you are a lawyer who has a partner and you have to show up at court on time and this guy's punctual, is punctually late, he is consistently late, you know. So then he could be the best lawyer in the world, but he's gonna get you in trouble if you're relying on him to be on time. So like uh I think this type of like like uh blind spot is uh is relevant in all places. Okay, good. These are two good ideas, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the other Mufarjum say. I do hope that we get to some um Der Knister stuff like uh inside you go and uh you know about relying on a fem. So we'll see. Okay. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Or relying on a