Mishlei 25:19 - On Unreliable Teeth, Feet, and Friends (Part 2)

Mishlei 25:19 - On Unreliable Teeth, Feet, and Friends (Part 2)

שֵׁן רֹעָה וְרֶגֶל מוּעָדֶת מִבְטָח בּוֹגֵד בְּיוֹם צָרָה:

Length: 29 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (3/12/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we did a brief recap of yesterday's approaches, then started learning through the meforshim. First, Immanuel ha'Romi supported our take and provided two additional explanations. We speculated about our own derech nistar, but weren't entirely successful. I'm not sure whether we fully grasped Saadia Gaon, but we definitely learned a foundational idea from him. We concluded with the Meiri's derech nistar, which ended with a tzarich iyun. Still, a great haul!
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מקורות:
משלי כה:יט
עמנואל הרומי
פירוש רס"ג
מאירי
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Okay, day two of Mishleigh 2519. Shane Roa. Actually, I want to quote something here. Um, so uh we're not gonna do the Mi'iri yet, and unfortunately the Mi'iri did not make it into that packet. Uh uh I'm I need to do the next packet and it goes on the other page. But I saw just an interesting thing in terms of the um the reading, okay. Uh I don't know enough Dikduk to like make real sense of this, but I just want to show you this as a phenomenon in methodology. So he says, uh Shane Roa Vraga Muadis Miptak Boged Viyom Sarah Roa Apho P Shaha Taam Bereish. So even though the the Ta'am is on the race, so Shane Roa, okay, um he says, uh Kabbalah hu etelha madoktaktakim benigun kriasa likrosa milera. There's a tradition among the medoktikim in the cantellation to read it milera, to read it roa, rotal mark illu hatam the ayin. Okay. Ukumuhu harbi base for io. So I just think that's an interesting thing to keep in mind that, like, if you were a Baal Dikduk and you encounter ta'mim that don't make sense, it is worthwhile to check out alternative sources of the Masora of the Kriya to see if there are other readings. So, like, I don't know. Again, that's something like that's in your territory there. But uh um okay, anyway, so that's why I read it as Roa. So Shane Roa Virgo Mu'ades, Miptak Bogi Biamsara. So we translate it as like a shaky or a broken or a bad tooth and a slipping foot. So is the security or the trust um of a bogade uh mishlayc traitor or maybe just a traitor on a day of calamity. Okay, our questions were what is the subject of the Pasuk? And our two basic intuitions were either it's about Bogadim or it's about security. And then we ended up seeing it's really one about friendship. All right. Two, isn't it obvious that you shouldn't rely on a traitor? Right? Again, and the premise here is you know that the person is a traitor, so why would you rely on him? What is the mushal ad or why what's the uh why is this necessary? Three, what's the intended similarity and difference between Shane Roa and Regal Mu'adis? Are these supposed to be essentially similar, meaning unstable versions of what should be firm, or is the difference is it the difference being highlighted? Four, uh, are the two supposed to be regarded as two mashalim or two examples of one? Five, what's a bogeyed in this context? Six, what is a mivtak bogeid? Factually, how do we translate this and what does it mean? Seven, what is the yom Sarah in this context? Eight, why yom instead of just Sarah? Nine, what is expected of what is expected of a bogit or an yomsara? 10, what's the Havmina? That he'll be like a non-voged or that the bogeyed would behave differently. Um, would I say differently given that he knows that this guy is a bogeyed, why would he rely on him in the first place? 11, to what extent is this always the result uh in the mushal or in the nimshal? 12, what's the consequence beyond not getting the benefit you hoped for? And then 13, what's the practical application beyond don't rely on a bogeyed? So we had two ideas yesterday. Uh Dove's idea, which we developed, is basically that you can rely on these things in certain cases. It's just that if you take it too far or you exceed the capacities, or you do you rely on it too much, so then you're gonna get in trouble. So then the question is so then the message is don't accustom yourself to relying on him even in low-stakes cases, because then you'll come to regret it. So then the question is, why would you do that? So Moshe said that um that you'll end up psychologically classifying this guy as reliable, uh, and then you'll automatically turn to him in a time of tsara. That's how security tends to work. And then we also said, practically speaking, don't make this person your support system. Don't put all your eggs in that in that basket, um, because then you'll really be in trouble. And then Isaac pointed out an additional practical application, which is if you're if you are in a life situation where you're forced to rely on a bogade, always be vigilant to try to look for ways to get around that or to get out of that as soon as possible. Um and uh and then Ezra said that um maybe the omitsara is being highlighted because that's when uh sorry, no, I said it's when the consequences affect you the most. And then Ezra said maybe it's that's when he's most likely to betray you. Uh, we'll see that that plays out in the Derek Nister. Um, and then we I I theorize maybe that um that the it's highlighting two qualities of the pain. A broken tooth is more painful, but a slippery foot is more harmful. Uh, and so there's gonna be two aspects here. There's the pain of being let down, and then the uh the harm. And I just wanted to read really quickly the the uh in the Mufarshim, the one who said this the clearest is Immanuel Haromi, uh one of our new friends. Uh Amar, he doesn't say it directly, but I think it's just a good uh reading of the puzzle. Amar kihabitakam shivtach adam beeso be ishino neman. Uh the trust that a person puts in someone at a time of his calamity, uh he puts into a person who's not trustworthy, raku boged borea, but he betrays his friends, who doma elabitak and shiv taham bashem rauah. That's similar to the trust a person puts in a shaky tooth. That's the key line. It is normal for a person to rely on his teeth. And to eat securely, but when he has a shaky tooth, and in the course of eating, your tooth encounters the food. He'll get really, really a lot of pain when he uh when um because of his trust in it. So so a slippery foot, which is when you've got a bad ankle, it's the way of a person to rely on it for their entire body. And one person relies on it and then can't stand. Um, same thing with the person who betrays you. All right, so I think that's just like a good shot. Okay, then he says, Oh yomar, komosh lo youhal adam livtoh al shane ru'ab regomu adus, ken miftah bogeid. So this is actually supporting Isaac's reading. Lo yuhu leftoak ha isha boged beyom sha tahtsara. So the bogeid himself will not be able to have bitahon when a tsara on a yom sarra. Why? Uh, because he will not have good deeds to intercede on his behalf. Okay, so can we just um pause and just say what that means in more like less fanciful terms here, right? In other words, you could put it in like uh spargoonish terms that like we don't think about in the sense not that we don't think about, but like people just like, oh yeah, you won't have good Mazen Toven, but like what does it mean practically? Yeah, it's like Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Uh so the way that I was thinking about it is that when um because of the way that he operates and his interpersonal interactions, yeah. Um I think a normal person is building up a network of of like people that um he that that like care about him and you know um we have and they we have a type of relationship where they'll help each other out. But because he he is not doing that, then no one is going to want to do that for him.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Okay, good. I think that's a good mishlayc um uh framework here, right? So it's not talking about Masumtovian like he didn't put on to fill in every day or whatever, and like he doesn't, and then when God checks his accounts, then there's not gonna be enough Hajjgaha points. Like I think it's like a childish way to look at it. But mishlayakally, you build up a storehouse of goodwill from other people by doing Mosum Tobin being on the Favero, and this guy's not gonna have that if people can't rely on uh uh can't rely on him.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

I have a question about this and an answer. Okay. Uh so the question is why is this specifically specifically about a bogey?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

And um my answer is that like yes, there's other, you know, Rashim who um like you know, other like Misha villains who like do bad things and then people don't want to help them, but he specifically this is specifically his area of doing harm to other people.

unknown 8:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

And then people are the um people are gonna have to be most inclined to not help him because of that.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Right. Okay, that's good. That's a good that's a good shot.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Um a stingy person who didn't want to never like wanted to help anyone if he's having financial trouble, yeah. I think people are more like are even less willing to help him in that, you know in the area where he's doing the harm to other people.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Right, that's good. Yeah, that's real Mishleiv Mita Knegad Mida, right? Okay, uh, and then he gives us another interpretation, and this answers the Yom Tsara question. All right, he says, Oh Kara Yom Tsara Yom Hatsara Hagadola Huyom Hamisa, okay? Umar kia bitachon shish le ish ha bogeid biyom ha misa hubitain ru of ragamadas. Now he doesn't spell this out, but he says the so the the bitachon that he has, I think when he's on the Yom Hamisa is going to be unreliable. So the question is, how does the quality of bogeyed affect the way that you relate to death? And what is the bitachon that you should have on the Yom Hamisa? Like, or what would be the the opposite of this? Is this his is it um is this consequence for the for the bogey, or the bogeyed isn't gonna have um I think that this is continuing his his um his previous uh reading that it is the bogey's security. So I'll tell you again just because this is Thursday and I have less time. Oh no, go ahead. On Thursday we'll reduce thinking time, but yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Yeah, so I think that um normally when a person is dying, like the um the you know, it's I think it's really painful to be encountering that it's the end of you being able to do things.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Normally you have, okay, I you know, I have the the other people around me who are gonna carry on acts, whatever it is that's a that's important that's important to me. You know, my business or my whatever, well, you know, my my legacy. Right. But because but the bogey because the framework that he's operating in is is very self-centered and you know, he's um where he's not where he's not he's he's already you know, no one can trust in him and presumably that is that he he doesn't trust anyone else either, then when he's dying, like he has uh he doesn't get that comfort that someone else is gonna be carrying it on.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Okay, good. That's better than what I was gonna say, because that flows directly from the last one. Nobody will will uh will want to do that. Okay, that's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:13

I mean even if someone does want to carry it on, yeah, he he can't trust that that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Right. Uh or even if if there's a possibility uh someone will carry it on, it's not reliable. So uh Ezra's asking what's the tooth and the foot. I mean it sounds like here he's just um he's just saying that it is uh not reliable. It's a much more not reliable. I don't know if it goes beyond that though, let's think about it for a second. Because the thing is it's on Yamumisa, it's not like you're gonna have any um it's not gonna affect you practically going forward, right? But psychologically it will. Yeah, maybe that's what Isaac was uh what Isaac just said addresses that. In other words, like you do have a tooth, but you can't rely on that tooth, you know. Yeah. Um I want to try doing a dereth nister, which I did not see in the McCarthy here. What would you say the deret nister would be for a for uh for this? Uh especially like the question is who's the bogate in the Dereath Nister? Uh we could. I actually want to read Saudi Gon next. Um yeah, yeah. Yeah. What did Saudi Gon say that was uh oh the Kofair? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right, right. It's funny because this this often happens with Saudi Gon is there's I don't think his tof sear translation necessarily lines up with the approach that he ends up taking. Uh I mean we'll we'll see, we'll see. Yeah. So uh what I was thinking, I was thinking when, you know, our Derek Nitzer really goes according to the Mi'iri. Okay. And the Mi'iri's two moves tend to be um, it's about your internal world, about like relying on your uh, you know, your intellect or your tzahara. So he does take that approach, which if we have time, we'll see. But the other approach he takes is in terms of learning. And I think we've had a lot of Prakim or a lot of Tsukim in this parak that have talked about like, you know, uh Masabreshis, Masumakava, learning metaphysics. So what I was thinking is that the bogate is an unreliable balmasora in the Yesotos. Okay. And it maybe I'm just projecting my experience with students, but that I feel like I've gotten a lot of students, well, I know I've gotten a lot of students who come into school and they've just been fed garbage uh by their teachers who have told them this is what Judaism teaches. And they end up feeling this sense of betrayal. You know, I one aspect of it I gave in my midrash of betrayal shear about like they rely on authority because that's they don't have a choice. They rely on the authority to tell them that this is what Judaism actually teaches. And they there's a risk that they build up an entire edifice of like either psychological bitachon or intellectual premises based on that, or they use that as intellectual premise, and then like it doesn't play out and it's disastrous. So the only problem I have with this though is that that um that I I don't think that this advice could be directed to the student because you don't necessarily know whether your teacher is reliable when you're starting out. So that got me thinking, you know, is this a is this a uh uh an Azara to the teacher to make sure that what they say is reliable and to not be a bogate? And and this is something that like I can't say I always do this, but I I mean I always try to not rely on memory for sources when I'm answering questions. And I always try to look it up on the spot because I don't want to say something that's baseless. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

This reminds me of every mayor learning from Alpha.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Alphabet's take the work for me because I'll go there.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Oh, that's interesting. So that's a okay. So that that is uh that's a good possibility. That's kind of like a mix between what we're gonna see uh in who says this? Oh, um I think says this, uh, that um it's talking about the the uh the the taint of khfira, you know, uh but combined with my Valmasora approach. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

But then he's gonna tell you something that you don't realize. Right, and then you're gonna fall into the hole.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

All right, that's good. That's a good approach. Yeah, I think what were you gonna say? So can you just repeat what I just said? He said that um it's like um Rabbi Mirror learning from Akher, that we say Rabbi Mirror could do it, but other people can't because you might you know he might say something that is tainted by his kefira and uh and then you'll you'll get stuck because you'll rely on that and you'll be uh you know let down.

SPEAKER_03 15:44

Yeah, yeah. So I was gonna say along some of the lines that when you've seen that someone is unreliable about like telling you like true ideas.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Then um you know, even if they're not like the co-fair, but if you see that they're unreliable, then you then you can't take anything that they any ideas that they tell you at face value because sometimes they're just wrong. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Okay, so you know what? I I actually am gonna retract based on on what you said uh and go with what Ezra said. Um, if anything. The reason why is I'm realizing now that I think the reason why maybe the Miri doesn't say this is I think for this he uses uh aid sheker or aid kazov for uh uh someone who's testifying about stuff. Boget to me implies an actual like defect, and I think that fits in better with Kpira. So I I I accept the truth of what you're saying, Isaac, but I I no longer think this is a good shot for the Derek Nester. Yeah. Okay. Uh I want to read Sadigon. Okay, this is a to me, this is a Yesodin Mishle, okay. Um, but maybe I'm projecting, you'll tell me. So he says like this uh that's not it. Um where are we? 19. Okay, so he says Kavan Shahat Sarah uh Shne Sugimbaze Ulam Haba. Since Tsara has two types, there's tsara and ulam hazah and sar and ulam, so he compares it to two things. One is harsher than the other, more severe. Regarding the tsaros in this world, uh, he compares them to uh uh shaky teeth or whatever you want to say, broken teeth. That really you should uh you should pull them out. But sometimes you'll lose them when you're young. Okay. Uh, so too the kofir, im amarlo hashem. If Hashem says to him, Avi Allaha alkopanim es ha ra'a ha zoba alumza, I'll bring upon you all of this Ra'a in this world, again, Ra here meaning like punishment, um, then um there's nothing you can do. Ah, but efashane, you could do chuva later. Vitoyal lo teshuvasol olam habba, and your shuva will help you for ulam habah. Aval, onesh ha'olam habba himshilu bam'idas haregal. So the ownersh of is compared to a miidas haregal. How do you decide you're gonna translate the uh the second part? Do you have a different thing for that? Uh uh no, it's just a uh I think shaky, right? What is kilohu? Oh, yeah. Um I think, or whatever. I mean that's as far as I know. So a shaky leg. Um that could cause a person to fall uh I think like lethalally, I guess. The entire body is supported by his uh you know, but by that. The ownersh of will will definitely uh fall upon or or or you know, uh be subject. A person will definitely be subject, those who are roy for it will be subject to it, uh kopanim. There's no escape and there's no teshuvah afterwards. Um tzadikim hari hashem bitchonam, ba'lum hazah, kmotion emar, teshua's tzadikim bashem. I don't know why he doesn't quote one of the many psukim that talk about the tzadikim trusting in a shem, but whatever. Uh, I guess salvation, I don't know. He's salvation in terms of uh escape from uh punishment. Vagamla ulum habba, namar Hashem uzi um mauzi, um nusi byam tsara. Yeah. Okay, so so just mush-wise, right? So he's saying in Ulam Hazah, if you're a see, I don't get the sense he's using kofer, the kofer is lav tafda. I don't think he definitely means a heretic. It means anyone who deserves Onesh, right? Um, but even a kofer, maybe, right? So even a kofer in Ulam Haza is gonna get consequences, but the consequences are either like you can mitigate them or you can do teshuva um from them. Uh so he he doesn't say this, but I do feel like what we said about like I think it's just in the muscle that if you have bad teeth, you can chew on the other side of the mouth or whatever. Like the there are ways to like avoid getting that thing. Yeah. Does that yangis manara so you mean like you'll grow in? I think so. I think you'll you'll like your baby teeth will fall out or whatever. Yeah. Um, right. Um, but if you fall, he's saying then that's like certain death. Now it is funny that he uses that, like he is equating falling with death. I mean, because he's saying that there's it's severe and there's no getting around it. So I I don't here here's what I got from this, and I realize I might be projecting into this, but I'll say this anyway, is that I think a lot of people, evidently a lot of people are bothered by Tsadik Viralo and Rush Motel Vla. Okay, I'm not gonna answer the whole thing, but I do think that a lot of people assume that or or their their premise is that the own shame of Olam Haza should be absolute and unavoidable and unmitigatable, and like, you know, tit for tat, like Mita Kneg Mida and like fallout, exactly. Okay. Everything I've learned about like Skarva Onesh and like the way the world works, is that's not how things work in this world. Okay, like you can have someone you can have an evil tyrant who dies secure in his bed, you know. Now that's not to say that there's no justice in this world. Mishlay shows that Rashaim get consequences, but the thing is, is it is in terms of probability, it's not necessarily exact. You know, you can't avoid it. There is also time for chuba. There is a reality to Erachapayim, you know, and not everyone gets equal Erachapayim. Like some people get, you can have like Minasha, uh the king, who uh how long did it reign? 66 years or something like that. And and he did chuba in the end, you know, and it his chuba apparently was good. It did not undo the the disasters. So there's so many factors in Alam Hazet that that like you cannot treat that. Onesh as absolute. But Olam Haba, in terms of the effect on your soul, that is absolute. Okay. Meaning that that, and however you understand that that applies, like what, you know, uh to me, the the the model that that is is most prominent here is like the Ramam's model, Khazal's model, of like, you know, those who prepare an Arab Shabbos will have what to eat on Shabbos, or if you prepare food when you're on dry land, you'll have what to eat at sea. It's a direct outcome. Like you are directly preparing, whatever you, however you hold, whether it's knowledge or masim tovim, what you do in this world is exactly what you will get in Ulam Haba. And there is no getting around that. So those are absolute. So uh to me, again, that might not be what he's saying, that might not be what the puzzle is teaching, but the phenomenon, the subject of the puzzle, I think is a Yasod in Mishle, which is that Mishleh is not guaranteed, it's alharov. That's how Ulam Haza works. But on Shim and Ulam Haba are direct consequences. So I just wanted to bring that up. Yeah. Okay, let's do really quickly the Mi'iri and Derech Nister, which again you don't have in the packet. Um, so oh it is interesting. He does uh he does quote Sadigon, but uh we'll do his his derich nister. So he says like this, so you a person should not trust that he will succeed in uh acquiring chhachmos if he is if he clings to the paths of the yetzer, ubuchhira shalomo vahavaso, and he chooses um uh the like I don't know if shalom is well-being or like the friendship uh of the yetzer. In other words, if you try to make peace with your yetzer and to satisfy it and be the friend with the yetzer, don't think that you can also get chachma. Ki kishiaksha of the hoyel, because when he thinks that he's gonna benefit, yimsa bisibaso tohhelas niqsaba, so then his hope will be dashed. Is safra lo saifa vi is saifa lo safra. I was not familiar with that memorra, and I think he's not applying it as the way it is in the Gemara, but it says, um uh if one is an armed robber, he's not a scholar, and if one is a scholar, he's not an armed robber. Um, this is about suspicion for stealing from Sadaka, uh, but I think he's just using this like uh in a proverbial way, that you cannot be both a Saifa, which is like a guy who's like uh allies with Ytahara, you know, and succeed in Chachmah. Uh so what is the idea here? And he's saying that it's fine because he's saying uh he says of lahoyal. I think the question lies on what is it that you're trying to do here? In other words, is that referring to if you think you're gonna get the chachmah, then your yttar is gonna get you? Or is it that you do get the chachmah, but somehow the if you think the chachma is gonna benefit you, then the yittar is gonna jeopardize that. And this might be related to what you were saying about the the um uh the kfir thing, but broader because it's about the yatar as a whole. So why can't you why can't you get uh sagas of chachmas with uh with the atr? And uh clearly this is somewhat related, at least, to all the statements of Khazal about how perfection of Midos is a prerequisite for perfection of Chachma. But what's interesting about it is he doesn't use those terms, and he uses those terms a lot. Like he doesn't he doesn't speak about it, he doesn't limit it to Midos. He he it really is more about like you know, being a person who's a friend to the Yeitzer Hara.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Uh yeah, let me uh try to put it small.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

It's too small.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah, that's good. That's all I can do.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

I mean, just to throw something out there, we don't care about knowledge per se. We care about perfection. Okay, and perfection is uh, or if you don't like that word, then use a different word. Um like yeah. Um we and uh whatever we what we care about is a like in other words, we care about the you know, Hatzlaha andushis, right? That is success as it's almost which is in the entire organism. Okay, like your is a uh a harmony of your your um Nefeshabahami and your your rational faculty, uh obviously you know, uh subordinate to your rational faculty. So the thing is, is like you can get knowledge even if you uh you're giving to the Hzahara, but you the knowledge will not be real to you in a way that will affect the entire way that you live if you're trying to get both. In other words, your you know, I mean, first of all, I think on a practical sense, it's very hard for most people to live a hedonistic, pleasure-seeking lifestyle and pursue chakhma because you have to give up one to get the other. But even if you could juggle those two things, your knowledge will be tainted by or your Yitzer Hatov will be subordinated to your your animalistic tendencies. And you'll you might get the Chachmah in the sense that you could pass a uh a written test, you know, but it's not gonna be a reality to you if your um if your psyche is uh is dominant. Um now what that means practically we have to get into, and I'm I'm I'm uh just starting these program in the moray right now. If you want to look, it's in 3.8 through 3 uh arguably 311 um about how the how is a you know mm mm your material matter is the source of all ra and it's a screen between you and uh and the truth. Um but I think that's too much to go into for now. Uh but I I I get the sense that that's what he's saying. Yeah, Isaac, last comment for today, and I gotta stop.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

How is he getting this nameshell from the marshal? Like what's the what are the parallels?

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Good question. I mean, the bow the bogate is your um is your ytahara. You can't trust your etar. And I guess that that's really what we need to do also here is that that your etar is gonna betray you. You're taking your security in a bit's gonna betray you. So we need to think about that, and then we need to think about what the harm is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Is it possible he's referring to distorting your thinking or something?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

I see it's funny. He says kishiyakshov le ho' il to me that means like the getting the benefits of chachma. Not that you'll not that it'll interfere with your ability to obtain the chamos themselves.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it's the relying on the shaky tooth or the the or the bad ankle.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Okay, sorry, and but uh, I think we got we got good uh good ideas here though. Yeah, I like this podcast. Okay, uh thanks for coming. And uh next week, oh, just wanted to point this out in case we forget. So we have one more puzzle and then the section ends. So I don't know what that means, but just so we don't forget it next time. Yeah, okay, later. Thank you.