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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 17:21 - Two Failed Fathers of Two Mishleic Fools
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Mishlei 17:21 - Two Failed Fathers of Two Mishleic Fools
יֹלֵד כְּסִיל לְתוּגָה לוֹ וְלֹא יִשְׂמַח אֲבִי נָבָל:
Length: 1 hour 42 minutes
Synopsis: This evening (3/23/26), in our Monday Night Mishlei shiur, we learned a pasuk which fit squarely into two Mishleic genres: (1) Mishleic parenting, and (2) seemingly obvious pesukim. Once again, I was a bit nervous because of how little the meforshim had to offer, and once again, I was pleased with what we and they came up with! This was also my first time delving into what appears to be a niche Mishleic archetype: the naval. Another nice haul!
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מקורות:
משלי יז:כא
מצודת ציון/דוד
ר"י אבן כספי פירוש א
מאירי
רבינו יונה
זרחיה בן שאלתיאל חן
מלבי"ם
ר"י נחמיאש
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This week's Torah content is sponsored by Seth Speiser, in honor of the yahrzeit of his father, Rabbi George Speiser (Rav Yosef ben Dovid). Rabbi Speiser was a kind and gentle soul as well as an Intellectual and a scholar. He received smicha from Rav Hutner at Chaim Berlin. His love for teaching and making puns was only outweighed by his love of family.
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Okay, I typed this at the top so I wouldn't forget. Um so uh technically speaking, Monday night might be available, but I really want to um I I think it's better if I if we if we hit have this year tonight and then we stop until after Pesoch because I know I'm gonna be working on writing something or compiling something, and I don't want to get too crazy before Pesock. I'm sure a lot of people have other stuff to do as well. So um after this, uh let's see, uh I guess the whatever, the 13th, maybe? I don't know. We'll find out. Yeah, I might be trapped. Yeah, whatever. We'll find out. I'll I'll keep you posted. Okay. So we are up to Mishlay 1721, and I'm not gonna lie, this is one of these Psukim that is seems to be very obvious, very um uh seems to repeat like a very common Mishlayc trope, and there is not a lot that the Mufarshim say. So um I believe in us. We'll we'll see what we can do. Okay, Yolid Xil Letugalo Vlo Yismach Avi Naval. Wants to take a stab at uh uh working translation.
SPEAKER_08Um is it like a fool gives birth to grief for himself?
SPEAKER_05Okay, that's uh you know that's interesting. I wonder if anyone translates it that way. So um the way that that most, if not everyone translates it is that the Yolate is the subject and the Xil is the object. So one who begets a Xil, which we'll translate loosely here as Mishlayak fool. Okay, Letugalo. And sorry, did you translate Letugalo?
SPEAKER_08Uh it will be a grief for him.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we'll uh it will be agree for him. Yeah, that's good. Uh Velo Yismach Avi Naval.
SPEAKER_08Um and the father of uh Naval is like a yeah, that's the question. Foolishness, I don't know. Uh will be uh will not be joyous.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we'll not uh be happy. Let's put it that way. Yeah, okay. Um anyone have a working translation for Naval? I mean they say here in the BDB foolish or senseless. Um uh but I I I don't think that's good, especially because we have so many Michelle words for fool, and Naval is not one that we typically see.
SPEAKER_03Is it related to like Nivela or no? Is that completely good question?
SPEAKER_05I mean, uh I I tell you as soon as I saw this post, I was like, oh, Seth Spiser is gonna go absolutely crazy with etymological theories about what words are related to what because he could go in so many different directions for this. So I'm I'm sure I'm sure we'll see a uh a cascade of of theories here. Yeah. Um, but I was gonna say, what did you say in uh rookie? That oh yeah, whether it's related to navela. Good question, no clue. Yeah, yeti. Uh overindulgent. Overindulgent, interesting. Are you is that from uh etymological theory, or that's just how you render it?
SPEAKER_01Um that's kind of from like the line of Naval Burchus Hatora. Oh, interesting. So I kind of just getting it from okay.
SPEAKER_05All right, I hear that. Uh overindulgent. Yeah. Actually, let's uh let's actually leave it uh untranslated for now. Okay, um, so uh let's look at our uh glossary mufarshim here. Okay, so uh Mitsu Sion says Latuga is Miloshin Yagon uh is sorrow. Okay, so that's um brief sorrow. Okay, uh I've seen it translated as depression. Um okay, Sadigone says Naval is kal hadas. So literally like you know, having uh you know a uh um a mental lightweight, I guess. I don't know. I say uh you know, kal hadas. He says so it's uh um I mean I've did I've did we talk about this recently, kal das? I have a whole theory about kal hadas. I don't know if we talked about that. Yeah, uh yeah, Rokeli?
SPEAKER_09Um, so I know the modern Hebrew, I don't know what it is, you know, from way back then, but a novel is someone who's like vile, like someone who's what? Vile. Vile, yeah, okay, good.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, okay. I think that's actually probably a good base translation. A vile, a vile person. Um yeah, it's funny. Uh Yetsi, when you said a novel Bershusa Torah, um the um I've heard that translate before as like someone who's like villainous within the confines of Torah. Villainous has a little bit of too much of an interpersonal um connotation for me, but uh yeah, uh light, light-minded, um or frail-minded, you could say, I guess. Frail-minded, uh, chasir tuvuna, uh lacking uh understanding. Um okay. Targum says interestingly. It was funny. I was thinking, you know, there are there are years when we do um mishleigh, and the mishle before we do Pesach, I was like, oh, we'll do something Pesach related. So uh the Targum says Demolik Sichlah, Khimutzah Dile. It's his chemutz, which uh which I was I got all excited because I was like, oh that's chemits, but then apparently chimutzah in um uh in Aramaic is um is shame. Okay. Um uh right because we um what when we when we do um beer kol chamura the chamir. Uh I'm I'm blanking on what lush we use, but we don't use chemutzah. Um yeah, right. Uh so so chimutza is um uh it will be a shame for him. It will be his shame, literally. It will be it will be uh his shame. And then uh Velo Khadi Avuhi de Tafsha and the father uh sorry, let me actually translate this whole thing here. So uh Demoliv Sichla, one who begets a fool. Uh I think Sichla is just a uh Aramic translation for Kxil, Kimuta delay delay, uh it will be his shame. And then Velochadi Avuid Datafsha, and the father uh of an idiot, a Tipesh, uh, will not rejoice. Uh however you want to translate Tipish. But you see from here, Tipish is uh is seems to be taking the like novel is a type of fool. Um, like Tipish is like uh actually, I don't know what a Tipish is. Okay, fine. Okay, now two things I want to draw your attention to here. So the Ibn Kaspi, and I think most people say Yolid Ksil, umitraim yolad, shaitanl kumo holid. It means he he like causes to be born. Okay, so that's in English, I think begets is the best um the best word we have, even though it's not really a word we use in everyday language. But the Mi'iri says, Vulad Kumo Megadel. He says it's one who raises Ixiel, and those are two very different things, right? Um, so uh just be aware that both of those uh could be uh possibilities here. Okay, then you got art scroll. It says one who begets Ixil has done so to his sorrow. I think they're just trying to go with the le tuga low. Uh there's kind of a double lament there, le tuga low. Uh it will be for sorrow for him. Uh, and the father of a degraded one. Um, so you yeah, degraded is fine. Degraded uh will not rejoice. Uh rehearses a why. Oh sorry, you want this is a different possible. I translated the wrong one. Uh hold on, let me just uh look and see if there is a reverse translation. It's possible that there is none, and I just looked at the one in the in the um 121.
SPEAKER_04Hold on. Oh, it's on the next page, that's why.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so reverse says um there is one here, but it is on they printed the wrong page on the uh, what do you call in the index? That's odd. He who begets an unwise son will have sorrow, and the father of a depraved, that's a good one. Depraved son has no joy. Yeah, you know, I think yet see, I think depraved is probably good for Noble Bruce's Torah, right? Like that's I think that really captures it. So um depraved, okay, fine. All right, and then altar says one who begets one begets a Xil to one's own grief and a scoundrel's father. Scoundrel is a good one, also. Yeah. Uh uh or scoundrel. Yeah. Um will not rejoice. And then our YouTube friend Peskin says, He who begets an idiot uh does so to his own sorrow. I've had uh discussions with him about idiot. I don't like calling a Xil an idiot uh because that implies that it's not he's not intelligent, but that's not really a Mishlei Kasil. He who begets an idiot does so to his own sorrow, and the father of a low life. I've translated novels of low life also, um or low life, uh, does not rejoice. Or degenerate also. Yeah. Um yeah, let's actually let me just do this here. Okay, scoundrel or low life or degenerate or vile person. All right, we got a lot of uh of uh selections to choose from. Okay, let me copy and paste this into the chat. Uh first our working translation, then we'll go with these fellows, and then we will go with our English translations.
SPEAKER_06Oops.
SPEAKER_05Uh yes, uh Yitsi.
SPEAKER_01Um in the past, we've discussed what um like what a Xiel means, a mishlaik full of different um like Mefarshim, and I think we've quoted our Bien Yon on that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05There is such a thing as a mishlaik naval or like an archetype that's so that's that's the funny thing is when I was skimming the Mefarshim here, uh, and I actually did have time to skim them today because I was so nervous that we wouldn't have anyone. Um, then uh there are Mefarshim who take uh a definition of a novel as if it's a as if it's an archetype. It's just you know, let's actually quickly look and see in Mishle. Um I just want to see Naval. I know I could uh oops.
SPEAKER_06Ah, what happened? Hold on. Let's try this again.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm not I I know there's one Pasuk later on in Misley that uses um it as a verb, but I'm not familiar with it being used as a noun.
SPEAKER_06Why is this not working? Let me refresh.
SPEAKER_05But to answer your question, there are um there are Mishlaic archetypes that only appear once or twice, which I know it kind of like throws into question why they're an archetype, but like the way that the Mufarsim talk about them, it's as if it's an archetype. Yeah, so we got one here, and then let's just see in this. Okay, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. We had we had this earlier in this parak, actually. Interesting. Did we just like oh no no, wait, yeah, we did. Yeah, why did we? I guess we just didn't get into how to define it. I don't remember. Lo Nava Lin Naval Safas Yaser. Oh, I know why. Akilah Nadeev Safas uh Yasser. So there the Naval is the opposite of the Nadiv, and the Nadiv is either a noble or a generous person. And I think there, I don't think we went into it because we had such an easy time just contrasting it with an with the Nadiv. And then we have Ar Pasuk, then we've got um uh 3022, Tachas Evad kiimloch, the naval ki yisba lachem. So it sounds like a novel. There is also a low social class, and then same thing in Lamid Lamid Bez, Im Navaltabi. This is one of the rhyming. Im Navalta behis Nasev im Zamosa Yadla Pet. All right, um, which is if you are brought low when you are raised up, then uh and if you are uh I forgot what Zamosa means in this context, um, then Yadla Peth, put your hand in your mouth. But but so what we see from here is that three out of the four Psucum in Mishlay seem to indicate that it is someone who's low. So low life might actually be a good term because a low life uh captures um like being low in society and also like uh you know uh bad mitos, scoundrel, etc. Yeah. Seth is saying in the chat, uh Ish uh Mishchas Bamasav Midosav, a person who disregards Muser, someone who's corrupt in his actions and in his midos. Okay, so the question we're asking here is what does Naval mean in this context? Yeah, okay. And then let's put the other question that I raised. Uh I did not mean to say that, no pun intended, is does uh does Yolade mean beget or raise? Yeah, Ruki.
SPEAKER_03Uh are we officially starting questions?
SPEAKER_05Yes, yes, yes. Sorry. No, I was just making sure I forgot to fire the gun. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, so also on like Yolade versus um A V, I'm curious about the relationship between the two.
SPEAKER_05Oh yes, right. Okay, so what um what is the what I guess if anything is the significance of using uh YOLAid in the first half and AV in the second half? Yeah, um hold on, I just want to do this here. Uh Yoled, one who begets. Um yeah, okay, uh yeah, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_02So adding on to that, why is it the fathers mothers?
SPEAKER_05Okay, good. I was wondering this also because the I think the stereotypical Mishlayic parenting puzzle um usually talks about both. And so I'll show you. I mean, it's not just stereotypical, it's the first puzzle that he has in in uh in Mishle, in Mishlay proper, um uh according to me. I don't know if you know, uh I don't know how many people get the inside joke, but um, there is a machlogus between me and Rabbi Zimmer in in my yeshiva. Uh that he I say that that that the the uh the essential Mishle is from chapter 10 until the end of the book, and he says that the essential mishle is the first nine chapters, and then 10 through the end of the book is an appendix, um, which we always argue about that. But um, so the first proper Posikin Mishle, Mishlei Shalom Ben Chakha Ben Chakam Yisamach Av, Uvin Ksiel Tugas Imo. So a wise son uh causes his father to rejoice, but a foolish son is the sorrow of his mother. And there's a couple of psukim like that. So so the question here is why only focus on the fathers? Um uh like you know, uh many or I mean other other Mishlayc parenting psukim uh uh talk about both parents. Uh also, and certainly this would seem to be true uh for for the mother as well. Yeah. Uh Ruffy. Oh, sorry, Stephanie, we're not done.
SPEAKER_02Uh can I just ask one more question? If not.
SPEAKER_05Sure.
SPEAKER_02Um, what type of grief will it be for the father?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, okay. So what what type of grief will this be for the father? Yeah, Rufki.
SPEAKER_03On both consequences, I'm curious if it's um like are they actually different or is it just a different way of saying kind of the same thing?
SPEAKER_05Okay, so yeah, so I think that's a legitimate question, and I think we are going to assume that they're different. Um, but uh I'm sure their mafarge would just say it's the same thing. So so what is the difference? I guess what what, if anything, uh is the difference between between the consequences in each half. Um yeah. Uh and also just might as well spell it out a little bit more. Why is the first uh in what why does the why is the first expressed as a negative and the fur uh and the the second as lack of a positive? Yeah, Isaiah.
SPEAKER_08Um so if Yoli does mean to get, which I think is more mosha, uh then why express it in that way? Because I mean he doesn't it that implies it's like a thing he didn't have control over, or like like he was born it makes it sound like he was born this way, so like why express it like that instead of using a word that like really means to raise the child this way.
SPEAKER_05Wait, sorry. You're saying it it the the the the reading that seems to make more sense just from the word is to beget, right? Yeah, well it makes more sense but then conceptually it makes more sense to say raise. Yeah, yeah, okay, right. Right. So and if it does mean beget, um uh then what does that mean? Uh it makes it sound like he was born a Xiel. And then I'll say like uh and and if that's true, uh sorry, yeah, if it's uh if it's true that someone can be born born a Xiel, then what Mishleyc advice uh is this giving him, giving the father, right? That he's doomed, right? I mean, Mishlay does not usually just talk about stuff that's not in your control, right? So this is like saying, you know, if someone, if if your kid is born with a rare medical condition, then you're gonna be sad. Well, I mean, okay, like what am I supposed to do mishlayically? Yeah, Rufki.
SPEAKER_03So I guess this is like the general question would be like, who is it for? Like what who's the audience or subjects that area? But I'm wondering about the um, like, is this are we learning something about the father here?
SPEAKER_05Because it I mean, well, I assume it's for the father, right? I think this one's clear that it's for the father.
SPEAKER_03I just think it's interesting because like you don't necessarily, at least for me, like I don't think about like the parent of a seal to be someone who is in like sealed territory, right? That's kind of I guess why it's saying it's yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_05I don't know, it's just yeah, let's put it this way. So this is clearly aimed at the the this advice, uh this advice is clearly for a father, okay. Um, but but what is the profile of this father? In other words, um, is uh is he I guess let's put it this way. Does he all is it talking uh to a father who already has a son who is a XEL? Okay, or is it talking to a father who is raising his kid in a way uh that uh that will likely lead to exil? Or is this just a father who uh who might end up having a kid who is a Xiel? I think those are like the three, you know, actual, likely or like you know, hypothetically potential. I think we should ask what is Axel in this context, because you know, ordinarily we see Xiel contrasted with a some sort of mishlaik chachan. Here, I feel like whenever you get Michle contrasting two negative um personalities, then that's a kind of a unique opportunity to refine your understanding of them. So I guess the question here is uh oh, did we not ask what a novel is? Oh, we did, okay. We just put it in the wrong place. Um, hold on. Yeah, okay. So what is a novel? And then uh what does XEL mean in this context? And let's just say, I'm just gonna make this explicit here, which is that that uh what new insight do we get from comparing a XEL to a novel? And you know, it is interesting. I I know I just said this, but I just want to say one more time here. You know, many times in Mishley, when we have these Mishlayc uh archetypes that are said a lot, we don't necessarily look for a new insight in the old Mishlayc archetype. We we're open to them, but we don't look for it. Here, my intuition, my Michelay intuition is strongly saying like you need to get a new insight into a Xil here, because we never see a Xil compared with a novel. So, like, I feel like there's gonna be some new insight that this is right for. Yeah, yeti.
SPEAKER_01Um, two questions. One is one you alluded to, which is the Ariel question of this seeming quite obvious.
SPEAKER_05Okay, this seems obvious, especially if you've read Michel until this point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the second question is how is the son that's a Xil or a Naval becoming that? Is it just because humans are like Ava Yetzer, Tovietzer, Hara, and like our can be conflicted and he's truly going down the wrong path? Or is it that the father has been a role model for him for like something else that's leading him to actually become the Xiel? Okay, right.
SPEAKER_05So I'm gonna ask that question. You we could put that question under other pre-existing questions, but I'm gonna uh I think it's worth its own thing, which is uh to what extent is the pussook presupposing that um that the father bears responsibility for his son turning out this way? Uh, you know, like is this just talking to someone who happens to have a uh a Xil or Naval son uh due to factors outside of his control, or is there some you know decision making on the father's part that contributed to this? And of course, I am inclined to think the second way because this is a practical uh advice, but I am open to the possibility that this is talking about, you know, if you uh if you if you do have a son who turns out this way, like we do know that you can have, I mean, look, you can have um, you know, that that's one of the things where Moscow used to say is like, you know, the um the what I I don't know exactly how you'd say it, but like to the something to the effect of, you know, the the downside of raising your kid with free will is you might turn out to be a Russia, you know, and many parents do not raise their kids with the intent for them to have free will. They try to like, you know, raise them to usually to just carry carry after their own values and ways of life, but like like if you really raise your kid with free will, you know, then then they might turn out badly. And that's how Ryan Moscow was used to explain how so many Tadiq. in the Torah had kids who turn out evil because they raise their kids to have free will. And when you do that, then one of the one of the uh uh risks of doing that is that they might make make bad decisions.
SPEAKER_09Yeah uh rochali um okay so at the risk of a little bit I kind of I'm trying to think if it's repeating what was already said or maybe it's refining it a little bit.
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_09Okay. So I have two thoughts. One of them is I I don't even understand how putting Xil and Naval in the same kind of plane is like it like a Xil is unintentional. Okay, as far as I see it.
SPEAKER_05Like someone giving you meaning begetting one or or being a Xil?
SPEAKER_09Uh being a Xil is right it's kind of like a Tom or a Shane daily show right no no no so in Michle that is definitely not the case. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah in Mishle KXI is definitely a uh is culpable and got that way because of his decisions okay so that's the baseline that's the baseline we're working on because the the all the Psuokim and Mishle especially in the introduction to Michael but certainly through all the Psuokim you know condemn the KSI as someone who is making bad decisions.
SPEAKER_09And that's why that's why I don't like the word uh idiot because idiot to me you can be an idiot through no fault of your own like and you know or or like unintelligent you know but a KSI is like a uh a bad actor a bad mislead actor okay okay so that uh okay so that was the first thing the uh other thing I'm thinking and I don't know if this is more a question for now or more of a uh like after the minute thinking thing I'm not sure about why it's speaking to a father specifically yeah I think I did have that I think we had is is that yeah why only focus on the fathers uh that's just so there was a question there right so the thing is so I'm having a little bit of a thought and I'm kind of taking it to the haggadah a little bit but like if you look at the hagada it says you know at ptaklo for a mother right like you the mother kind of is more the educator the teacher whatever and the father is the dis disciplinary like interesting I've never seen I never see I never noticed that distinction uh yeah like the father is the disciplinary and the mother is the one who kind of is more the nurturing and well used to be in those days anyway you know say not in 2026 but so I'm just wondering if maybe that's why they're talking to the father because the father is the disciplinarian and the one who will make sure that he doesn't come out of Xila and yeah all right so I do think that that sounds more like you're already developing an idea so we'll we'll hold on to that for a little while yeah um yeah okay uh do we get all the questions uh Yolixil the tuga love lo Yesmach avinaval um I I also I just want to ask here um about the consequences like and this is I'm asking this as a neutral question not as like a raising a problem here but like is the consequence just the emotional state or um is there I guess is there some consequence in I don't know how to say it like outside of that right in other words like no one wants to be sad and no one wants to not be happy so that itself it would be enough of a consequence but like are there more um like is the could that lead to something worse that the puzzle is like alluding to yeah Isaiah yeah what kind of happiness is the Avi novel not gonna be able to get not asked that um where is okay um let's say yeah what kind of simcha happiness will the father of the novel uh not have and we didn't say also yeah what and and and why not um and we didn't ask the grief either what type of the grief will this be for the father and and how does it come about from having a seal son yeah and like I know if it's out like uh is the simcha that he was it a good simcha that he's not getting or is like like what was was the simcha he was looking for like a good thing right okay that's a good question also where did I put the simcha question oh yeah uh was the simcha he was looking for uh I think you mean like an objectively good thing or was it some like subjective slash like bad simcha in the first place that's a good question yeah Ruki first of all when Isaiah when you were like Avi Naval like it sounds like it should be a Nach like Avi Navy Yeah it does it does sound like a name um but then so that's that but my question was just making sure like confirming the Naval is like quote unquote worse than the seal on the Misleik spectrum.
SPEAKER_05We I have never put yeah I've never I've never it never occurred to me that the Naval was a Mishleic archetype until today. Okay so we're not sure we're not sure yeah okay yeah I mean I'll say that like and and this is partially an answer but I don't think this is like a big hit is here. It does sound like from our positive well which one does it sound like is worse.
SPEAKER_03I mean I think that it does sound worse.
SPEAKER_05Oh really?
SPEAKER_03Okay interesting no I think it's uh it's obviously I think it's obviously the other way right if I say what what what what would you rather be depressed or not happy like I'm not talking about with a father I'm saying No no but I'm saying like the fact that it's assigning like that consequence to him makes it sound like the um I guess from that consequence emoji the the thought bubble with the thumbs up oh no it's not one I'm it's gonna be this I think it was oh it was a it was a thought bubble that came from your mouth yeah oh that's oh thumbs down okay I see that's funny I've never seen that one yeah um yeah yeah so I was gonna say yeah from from the words it sounds like a Xil uh or sorry it sounds like a novel would be worse yeah from the consequences in the passive it sounds like it's uh yeah that's a fair question so let's ask that also um uh where did I put the thing about comparing then um oh actually you know I I made that part of the definition of the XEL question so I actually want to make that a separate question which is uh where's the okay yeah so the question is um who is worse the XEL or the Naval uh and why okay and I don't mean to say that we have to say that one is worse like it is possible for two things to be bad in different ways uh like I feel like that's a little bit of a um uh I mean I I'm just smiling because like one recurring question in high school QA's is like who's worse someone who is an atheist or someone who denies Hashem you know like the real answer is they're both bad for different reasons but like it's it's not like you it's on a scale you know okay um all right I feel like that's a pretty thorough job all right there's a lot more questions than I thought all right so let me import the questions into the chat we're two characters short we got it okay and uh and this is not gonna work oh we're 21 characters over all right so let's do nine ten eleven twelve and then thirteen i don't know why it turned out all weird okay and now we will have our thinking minute oh can I just ask one more question sorry sure um I it might be included somewhere but I'm just really curious about like with the Yoli XEL and that is pretty clear I mean somewhat clear what the relationship is between the person doing it and the XEL but I'm don't really understand what the inherent relationship is between the father and then Naval like is it just being like is that yeah yeah I think we could include that in uh YOLA we had a question about the Yoled versus Avi I thought I can't find it right now.
SPEAKER_05Oh yeah right right thanks um yeah what and then uh and what what does the term Avi imply about the relationship yeah okay let's let's start our minute again okay now before people share their ideas I'm not gonna demand this but I will say that uh to my mind then um the easiest way to say an idea here is to start with what you are what you mean by Xil and Naval just to give some sort of working like definition but go ahead and say the idea however you want I just think that that's probably how how we should uh you know think about it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, go ahead uh Yeti okay so I'll attempt to follow that uh directive so I'm thinking of a Xil as your classic person who's trying to pursue um pleasure like worldly success through cutting corners and you know in the long term that's not gonna work but um he's trying to cut corners to find success in the short run. And then Paul is someone who's like a lowlife and seeks and is just like a pleasure seeker especially in places that are like societally frowned upon. I guess like a classic like someone who would be called like a lowlife anyway um so with but the key is you're saying he's not trying to find like success. He's just trying to like indulge in uh yeah that's what yeah right um so maybe I'll start with the second half the a parent might think mistakenly that as long as their child is enjoying life then they you know they might not be the proudest they could be of their kid like at the end of the day I just want my kid to be happy so if they're enjoying so then I'm I'm gonna be happy for him too um I might not be like it might not be like my pride and joy but he's uh I'm I'm happy for him uh but the Pussik is telling us that really if a person sees their kid pursuing pleasures and places and ways and places that aren't like appropriate um there won't even be a joy like oh my kid is successful because there'll be a pain that that comes from a person seeing their kid in that way and not and not finding true success. And for the first half of the Pasuk so you'll lay Xil over here I'm taking the the approach that the father here like does have more of an active responsibility that he's a Xil and he sees that in whatever way it's working out from him that for him the cutting of corners the you know all of that and he's saying like okay so I'm gonna teach my kid to do the same uh so he'll be successful and you know life will be good for him. Um and the his assumption is like I'm like that you know I don't have a problem with people being like that so my kid's like that that definitely won't be a problem for me. But maybe what this pastak is teaching us is that through the father seeing the kid uh express or live by the same mistakes or faulty premises that he is that's gonna be painful for him because it's gonna cause him to see all the like see things about himself and the way he lives that he frowns upon like once he sees that in someone else he'll be like oh I don't like that then I'll have to think oh I have that in me as well.
SPEAKER_05Ah okay it's going to cause him pain. Okay. All right I I really like the approach here. Um I have a couple of thoughts that may be just variants on your idea and I don't think I have any I see any problems here. Um but I was gonna say that give me one second. Because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to see um uh yeah I'll I'll ask this as a question here which is um which is is the only reason for this pairing uh that both of them are pleasure seekers or is there a common mistake being made by the two fathers?
SPEAKER_01And I don't know if you have to say one or the other I just I was thinking I when when you were saying your idea I was noticing that I think there is a common mistake but I'm not sure interesting the way I was thinking that is it's a different mistake that for the Avall the mistake is oh if my kid's gonna be living a life where he thinks he's happy or he's living a pleasurable existence then uh like I I won't have a problem with that because if he's happy then I'll be happy right um like I'll find my kid's happy I'm happy but for the uh it's more of this is like a good way to live and it works for me so I want my kid to be trained to live in that same way as well.
SPEAKER_05Right. So I think what I so I agree with what you're saying. I was thinking that that is the same mistake because I think in both cases what's going on here is and you kind of alluded to it in in your second uh uh your explanation of the first half which is that the parent is imagining they're they're essentially the they're okay because of the identification with the kid then they uh they kind of pr project their own emotional state uh they imagine they imagine that their feelings about their kid are gonna be the same as about themselves in the same emotional state but once it's externalized and they see the actual reality of the kid then that counters that undermines the entire thing like the over identification with the kid in their imagination blinds them to seeing that and then once they actually have the kid and the kid is uh is behaving in this way you know then uh then it it the the reality becomes clear as to me that's like a it's a shared mistake.
SPEAKER_01Interesting I actually like the way you're saying it's like that's not the way I was yeah I mean I think both are true. I think both are true like I thought the the the father of the novel like well isn't like the the biggest fan of the novel lifestyle he'd rather his kid to be a chakan and live a good life but at the end of the day he thinks okay if he is gonna do this like I can still be happy for my kid.
SPEAKER_05I also like the insight the hearing okay so I I think both both of them both of them are possible. Okay so so let me just gonna get both these down so yet his answer is that um that it's uh it's different mistakes um the the father of the novel um uh you know thinks he can live with his kid not being a go-getter okay which is like I don't know I don't know that's the proper term right um but uh but doesn't you know and and and like and relinquishes the fantasy of his kid following uh in his footsteps um uh whereas the father of the XTL Davka wants his kid to follow sorry thinks he wants his kid to follow in his footsteps uh thinks he wants his kid to follow in his footsteps uh but that ends up being the cause of grief and then my answer is both fathers make the mistake of allowing their identification uh with their kid to skew their imagination about how satisfied they'll be if their kid uh kid turns out in one of these two ways uh but once their kid does actually do this uh and they they behold the kid you know uh as an independent you know real life being then uh then they'll uh you know they'll they'll realize uh that they were blinded.
SPEAKER_01Yeah one just one maybe one more point. Yeah one I think posit um benefit of expressing it the way I was is that the Logismach versus the two got works out well.
SPEAKER_05Correct yes I agree that that that does work out well. I also wanted to say in terms of your idea that um that I think so you you were saying that the uh uh seeing his own flaws is gonna bother him which I do think is true I think the more primary bother is gonna be that that just because it worked out for him by chance does not mean that it's gonna work out for the for the kid and the kid is going to get into a lot of bad consequences which are gonna are going to cause the the father grief. Like the example that I'm thinking of here is like there are you know there is a reality of um uh I mean Rob would call it uh Erachapayim where um where I don't know if you actually maybe it's not erakim maybe it's different media but like if you have a father who let's say is um is good or like a Chaham or Tadi you know so there will be a certain amount of like you know resources a certain amount of support a certain amount of like you're gonna be have have been raised like you know thinking a certain way. So even if you turn out to be a steel it's possible you can coast on some of the success without getting totally destroyed but the next your kid is not going to be able to coast on that same that same thing because of of all those same qualities. Like the the example like I I like to give here is um and it's not exactly an example of this but it's an example of like uh of of the way that these things are bequeathed is um I I saw a I I don't know I've given this example before but I once saw a mother who throughout the kid's entire middle school and probably high school like she would do his homework for him. Not all the homework but like she would like step in and like do his homework and she I think he like he was a bit of a mama's boy and she like like you know she felt sorry for the fact that he was oppressed by all this work. So she would do the homework for him you know so A she's setting him up for for failure because she's only gonna be able to do that for that so long. Like if she can do that in college if she can do that when he has a job you know but then the real thing is that when he has a kid he's gonna want to do that for his kid but he's not gonna be able to because he he never learned you know so it's that kind of thing where like like you can get away with a parent who makes a bad decision sometimes and produces a kid with a with a bad quality but then like that bad that kid's bad quality is just going to amplify and then the parent's gonna have to deal with what like watching it play out in a bad way. Yeah. So mine's a more of a like a a a basic consequence yours is more of a psychological a higher level consequence. Okay but I think the idea is really good.
SPEAKER_08Okay Isaiah you're up all right um yeah let me see if I can reconstruct how I was thinking about this um so I think a person I think it's the first half Yolade yeah it's uh it means raises like drastically but it says it as be yes because a person who um who raises his child to be a Castile is a person who didn't think about how they were supposed to raise their child such that they ended up like just basically giving birth to them. It's like a critique like you basically gave birth to this child but you didn't think through how to raise them to have the framework to not become a Castile. And so they did become a CL and that ends up causing a lot of grief because the XTEL like causes a lot of problems and isn't like what you would have wanted. Like you you wanted the child who would be a regular person you didn't think about how to accomplish that task and you got a CEL. And I think that like that is like a painful thing that like like a XI is not what you want to bring into the world and I think people feel like that and when you see that happen it's I think that would be like a grief like that would be grief. You know be almost like losing the person that you gave birth to because they're not really like a regular person. Um and then the second half the path the father of the Naval he won't be happy I think it's that maybe what I was thinking is like he maybe he was like looking from for joy from this child and um the like oppressive nature of a parent who does that I think maybe led the child to become a novel. And so he won't get the joy that he like he was looking for a certain type of joy out of his own child and he isn't going to get it or any other or like real joy from the child because he like sort of oppressed the child into becoming someone who like is like depraved or like No, it's like um I wouldn't say it's it's necessarily abusive because that that's like a more let's like an extreme subset of this type of thing, but it's like um you like confined your child or into a certain box or like you you like like push them into a certain direction because you because you wanted them to be a certain thing, because you wanted to get joy out of them, and then it ended up being that you didn't get joy out of them because they rejected that, and you you won't even get like regular joy out of them if you had a good relationship with them. Um that's how I do it in public.
SPEAKER_05Okay, good. I like that. Um I I the way I express it in writing here is that that parental pressure to become uh an object of parental gratification will naturally elicit a rebellion. I feel like the examples in movies and TV shows that this most uh that this plays itself out in most is like the very, very, very rich kid who's like father wants him to be like exactly like a certain thing, whether it's like to take after him in the business or to become like this military. You know, there's always like this this uh thing, and then the kid ends up like rebelling and then like like being a party animal. Um I am thinking of a very particular uh example. I'm thinking of uh I'm thinking of in I'm probably thinking of several examples, but the images are coming to my mind is Jude Law playing um Dickie Greenleaf in the talented Mr. Ripley. Uh he was like this like spoiled kid who's like father warned him to become like a uh you know successful, like like you know, uh respectable kid and like that, you know, he just like became like a party animal instead. Yeah. Okay, so in both cases, so it's interesting. So I'm gonna ask the same question here, okay? Is what warrants the this pairing in this PUSUC, according to you? Do you have a I I think they're like improper, like well, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_08I think both halves are like improper ways of framing or looking at parenting, like either not thinking it through or or like uh projecting onto it. Okay, so I'm gonna just go one step further.
SPEAKER_05These are two extremes of uh two opposites, opposite extremes, yeah, because that's implied by extreme two opposites, opposite extremes uh of parenting. One is um one is like not taking any active steps uh and having a totally hands-off approach, and the other is trying to force your kid to provide uh you know parental gratification in some way, you know. I I feel like that there is an opposite there. I don't know if that's what you're saying or if I'm uh projecting into that. Yeah, I hear that. Yeah. Okay. Uh Rifki, you're up.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So I think that there are elements that are have somewhat been expressed, but I'm I'm not sure how clear this is going to come out. So you might have to help me a bit. Sure. Um, but I was thinking the thing that I think strikes me the most is the concept of like the avi versus the the yoga. I think that that is the most interesting part of the pasuk. Interesting. Um well, whatever. But yeah. So that's right.
SPEAKER_05No, I mean it just is it's I always find it interesting what people are drawn to and what they're not. And like to me, that's like the most dispensable part of the passac. But like yeah, yeah, go ahead. I mean, I Isaiah also like like focused on that part. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So that's I guess what I was thinking, like at that part for sure. But so what I was thinking was about like the titles and what they actually mean. Um, and so the like a v Naval, I think, I think that that person is actively trying to like parent their child in whatever way that might be, right? So that person is, you know, giving them the tips and tricks, right, to how to become a Naval. Um to become a novel. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then in the first half that that's not the case. Um, so I wouldn't necessarily say so easily that like that person is a Xil himself. Or I think that the PUSIC is making it clear that like the Avi Naval is also a Naval. I don't think that the person in the first half is necessarily a Xil like themselves.
SPEAKER_05Okay, good. I I I think that's a good deduction just to to uh chime in also that like uh like of and uh you know an av is like a relatedness, you know, so it's expressing it as a relatedness, whereas Yolate is just like a causal, like it's like the you're just referring to the causality of like, you know, you you came into you came into being here. Not you're not like like people even use the expression, like you know, he's the you know, the the you know, the father of uh you know of uh of of you know, people use it like metaphorically to say that you, you know, you you sparked this that, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Um and I think that like on that, I think that's why in the first half, it's a worse consequence. That it's not necessarily that it's actually worse in reality, but that person, that father figure or father doesn't want the child to become a seal. So that's why I think the the um consequence is it sounds like a more intense consequence than than the the second one. Whereas the second one, it just says he won't be happy, which I don't know, to me, like, yeah, that's like sad, but I don't think it's as like they're not like devastated, right? Because at the end of the day, they're leading them to become, you know, in that type of lifestyle in the first place. Um, and I think that like whether or not they actively wanted it for the child, I think it's a different question. But the fact is that they led them there. So that's a they led them there, but they didn't, they realized like, oh, like, you know, this isn't actually a good thing. That's I think where the like not being happy comes from, but not from like a deep, you know, the same way the first one is.
SPEAKER_05Okay. I just missed, I think I just missed something, or I'm not sure if I missed something. Did you say, so I understand in the first half, the father did not want to raise a Xil. Are you also saying that he did lead him there in a certain way?
SPEAKER_03And if so, what what what so I think I didn't specifically speak on that yet, just because I don't think I have that part as flushed out. I think that's more of like a lack of parenting. Um, like whereas like we see like the Avi Novel, I think is parenting them to be a novel. I think that the person who's raising a seal, like it's not, I don't think it's intentional.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Okay. All right. So structurally speaking, this is close to Isaiah's, uh, but the particular is different in the second half because Isaiah is saying that he is his desire to make him into something else makes him have the opposite outcome of the I'm not saying that. Yours is that it's he's raising him to be your your your Avi Naval is similar to Yitzi's That's what I was saying.
SPEAKER_03Like Avi Xiel.
SPEAKER_05Okay, I see everything. Yeah, right, right. Got a mix and match uh thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. And I I also do think, at least to me, I think that the Naval seems worse than the Xial.
SPEAKER_05Uh-huh. Okay. All right. I think this is definitely uh this this approach definitely has potential here. Um, so let's keep it on the side burner. And if something lights up, then we'll go to it. And you also I I do um you already kind of answered this, but I would I I I do think this is a good question to ask for every anyone who gives um an idea here, right? What warrants this pairing in the puzzle? You know, what is what is the pairing or or or or what is the pairing uh bringing out? Yeah, so that's just something to think about here. Okay, good. Uh let's go with Rucheli next.
SPEAKER_09Okay, so I wrote this down. And like Rifke said, I may need you to help me a little bit, whatever. I actually have to go what I wrote. Okay, so I'm gonna push back at you a little bit with the Kfiel, and I'll tell you why. Because even in question five, you actually say, what if anything is the significance of using your ledge in the first half? Yeah, it is beg, right? And it just makes it sound like the feel was just born a cil, okay? I'm kind of going by by that track, so just bear away from the first fact. So assuming your ledge, in other words, you begot a axe, okay? Uh, and then you translate it to ga as depression, as depressed, okay. He will be depressed or grief or sorrow. Okay, a lot of times when you are depressed, you don't see a way out of it. Like that could be almost like it's it's much more than just not happy, right? Depress is like a higher level. Um, so I am looking at it uh from that perspective, and so what I'm developing here is like if the child was born like that, okay, the father can be extremely depressed and grief-stricken, and he might think to himself, is there even a light at the end of the tunnel for this child? And for the father, right? Like, is this our fate? Is my son always gonna be uh a cue? And always for anyone as opposed to that, the Naval Um he may change his weight. So the father, he could change his weight, he could redeem himself, right? There is redemption kind of there is possibly a light at the end of the tunnel because he became a Naval through however it happened, okay, whether the father's influences or not. And so the father right now is not happy, but he may find happiness again one day if the child redeems himself. Um, so there's a very big difference here between you might find happiness again and someone who is just very depressed with like a fate of conflict. Yeah. In question seven, you have who is worth, right? Which one of them is worth? So I'm saying it depends how you look at it. Uh it it really depends. You know, you'd think the Navel is worth, but if the Navale has a even a little uh spark or a hope that there could be redemption, then maybe it's not as bad as the crew who was born like that, and that's the way he is forever. So that must be worse as far as the way the father is looking at it. Yeah now, as far as so here's the Okay. I'm looking at it with this particular thing. It's talking to the Yoled thing, it's talking to the depressed father. And it's saying to the depressed father, now I have to look at my notes. Right. It's saying to the depressed father, basically, don't be depressed. Be unhappy. You may find happiness again. You don't know that your son will always be a king. Don't be depressed, just simply be unhappy, and you may find happiness again. And it's telling the Avi Naval that you be depressed.
SPEAKER_04Interesting.
SPEAKER_09Your son, you should be depressed at what's happened to your son. So it's kind of like a flipping flipping.
SPEAKER_05Okay. It's telling the father of Naval uh you should be depressed. Um uh because this was this is in your hands, is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_09It's it's like either way, it's either your doing or your son's doing. It's someone's fault. It wasn't just it didn't just happen. It you know, usually when like a child is well, no, no, I won't say that. It there's there's you know, yeah, basically that's it.
SPEAKER_05Okay, all right, I hear that. Okay, so first of all, I just want to clarify what I was objecting to in when you were doing the questions here. Um, I thought you were saying that Axil, I'm not objecting to the idea that you can have you could give birth to Axel. I'm objecting to the fact that Axil is not a bad mishlayc actor, which is I thought what you were saying earlier. Xil is definitely a bad mishlayc actor, meaning he is a he is making bad decisions and or has bad meetos or whatever. He's not like an Anoidal. That was what I was objecting to. I'm not objecting to the fact that you can have a Xiel who is you know from the womb, so to speak.
SPEAKER_04Right. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Um, which I think is not does not go against what you're saying here. Like the you we are we're not taking a stance on what IXEL is.
SPEAKER_09Your emphasis is on how he came about, and you're saying that he was born that way, and a father is depressed, yeah, and like no light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not necessarily okay. Just as I guess the father of the Naval can be unhappy and might find happiness one day, so can the father of the Xil maybe find happiness one day because maybe the child will.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So um I I want to flag this to say that the only one I saw who does approach it this way is the Malbim. I did not read what the Malbim says yet, but let's go back at the end and see if the Malbim, he's the one who says that it's talking about someone who uh is born Exil. Okay, so let's go and see we'll we'll we'll we'll see how he plays it out. Um, in terms of this is one of these cases I think where the ideas that you're saying, I agree with. In other words, I agree that just because someone has has a son that turns out to be a XEL should not let them get into a depressive state, even if there's nothing you could do about it, you know. Um and so in that sense, he should shift from depression to just like I'm not happy right now, and there's light at the end of the tunnel. And I also agree that if a person had that attitude of like, you know, if they raised a Naval and they're like, oh, it just happened, then that's also like they've got some work to do on themselves, you know, and like they they they they they should be depressed, not in the sense of like getting to a place where there's no way out, but they should like take stock of their actions and see what they did. And the fact that if you raise a kid who's a Naval, that ship might have sailed, but the causes of doing that are still in you, and you have to work on those, otherwise it's gonna cause any problems.
SPEAKER_09That's what I was gonna say, and then I took it back though. See, when we finished off the sentence there, I was gonna say, usually, like when there's a bad kid, okay, or like a Naval, whatever, you look at the home they came from.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_09You know, but but it's not always true though.
SPEAKER_05No, it's not always true, but Michle doesn't have to always be true. Mishley is talking about the the majority of cases, you know.
SPEAKER_09Right, right. You know, so you know, I mean I just gave examples of how like in the households of one of them is whatever, and why did that happen? Who knows?
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_09Friends, bad friends. I don't know, you know.
SPEAKER_05Right. No, but I I just gave the exception also is in the household of the Avos, you know, then they had kids who turn out bad, but it was it was because they did a good job, you know, it wasn't, you know, so so there are exceptions, but in oh on the whole, like I let's put this not that I've had this great worldly experience, but in in the 16 years of teaching that I've had, like, it is very rare to have a kid who has severe problems that do not stem from what one or both of the parents and the way that the kid is raised. Like and I think that's what Michelet would be talking to if it's talking to the parents, you know. I think my only objection to the puzzle, or not to the puzzle, my only objection is I'm not sold on reading it this way. Like, in other words, each piece fits very nicely. Like, I like how you started with each of the words and you built the puzzle. The the message of it's telling the um that it's really telling the Avi Naval that his he's in he should be thinking about it in the framework of the depression, and the other person should be thinking about in terms of the not joy. I'm not sold on that last implication, but all the mechanics and the ideas I'm I am sold on. Yeah. Okay, good, nice, thanks. All right, Zach.
SPEAKER_00Okay, uh, I hope you don't kill me, but I didn't learn Michelet long enough. So I'm hoping that you can uh bear with me because my definition of Castile does not conform to your definition of the Michelic purposeful actor. Okay. So from what I understand from Castile, and I think it fits in the postcards, you'll see, is a Chote, a chat. He's he's just, and maybe he acts bad because of that, but he is somebody who is inherently something's off upstairs. So somebody born with this inherent limitation is a source of grief because it's an immutable characteristic, or at least it's really difficult to change. While on the other hand, a Naval, who is a purposeful bad actor, despite not making his dad happy, at least he has the intelligence to eventually change. So dad doesn't disown him and still holds out hope for redemption in that case.
SPEAKER_05Okay. He at least has the chance uh of changing. And the father can hold out hope. Yeah. Uh okay, yeah. Um I uh I definitely disagree with the uh the definition, but there are that do say that it is uh um I'll show you one. Hold on.
SPEAKER_00Um, but are we limited? Like just let's say most of the definitions of Xil fall into a certain category. Can't there be other cases that don't be?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. Um the this is the process I'm thinking of that fits yours and Racheli's, which is yeah, Ra is initially 2612, Ra Issa Ish Khachambinav, Tikfel Xil Mimeno. Uh oh, sorry, that's the opposite. That's saying that there is hope for the Xil. Uh sorry, I got I got it mixed up. Yeah. Um never mind. Okay, but uh yeah, um, I I still agree with the uh given that I uh you know the definition that I uh that I object to, I agree with the um with the idea here uh that um that so according to you it's interesting, according to you, the the puzzle is really talking to the Avi Naval and just contrasting that with the old Xiel, right? Yes, it's almost like there's a the the this should be like but right that it may be that someone who who gives birth to Axel is gonna be depressed, but you, father of the Naval, you you're not happy and you should you should uh you know get get your act together or or get your mind together. Yeah, all right, that's good. I like that. Um see Rukeli, this is the interesting thing because you know Steph's idea is very similar to yours in certain halves. I feel like that reading of the puzzle is smoother because it's saying what it's purporting to say, not like you have to read it implication with the opposite, you know, like like I if the and I'm I think there is it's possible that we can find a way to read the puzzle in a way where your idea flows directly from it, but that I think that that last hop is what I'm missing there, you know?
SPEAKER_09Uh which I incest idea, I think I'll I'm more than fine saying that my husband is right.
SPEAKER_05Okay, that's fine.
SPEAKER_09I'm always fine with that.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Uh Avital. Um, yeah, this is uh just like a ha an idea on half the Pasuk. Yeah. But as other people are giving their answers, I was thinking that the Valo Yisma Khavi Naval is like the parent has the expectation to be happy through their kid. So it sounds like someone vicariously living through their kid and they're getting the Naval type pleasures and pursuits. And the Pasuk is saying that you might think, you know, obviously mistakenly, that you'll be able to get joy by seeing your kid do these things that you either wish you could do or you don't have the guts to do, whatever it may be, but really that's not gonna end up.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, okay, good. I think that's a good, solid uh uh explanation for the second one.
SPEAKER_01Right. I'm not I'm not sure like how like what to pair it for for an explanation of the first, unless we can try to mix and match with other ideas that have given, but on its own.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think that's really good. Yeah, I think that is a thing that there are parents who do that. Like there are parents who who um like look, there are, you know, the classic immigrant story, right? Is like you have people who escaped extreme poverty, whatever, and then came and worked really, really hard so that their kids won't have to like live in that poverty. So that's like the honorable immigrant story. It's gotta be that there are people who were in poor countries who wanted to have lots of money so that they could live indulgent lifestyles, you know, not just so they could like give their kids an education and like live on, but like so that like you know, I grew up, you know, let's say, like you know, you you can have an immigrant parent who like grew up like watching all of the Western media of indulgence and be like, I want that, and I might not be able to have that, but I'm gonna enjoy it through my kid, and then this is the puzzle saying, No, no, no, you're not. You're gonna watch the kid like having all these parties and then drunk driving and then getting into accidents and then like getting girls pregnant, you know, like it's not gonna work out the way that you hoped, you know. So I think that's that's a good uh good approach.
SPEAKER_01But it's it's yeah, I guess just to add one thing. Um, I wasn't even thinking that the maybe it's similar to our disagreement from like all the way at the beginning, but I wasn't even thinking that oh, the person trying to live vicariously won't be happy because the kid will end up doing bad things. Oh, the kid does end up enjoying riches, right? Happiness doesn't come through vicariously. Right.
SPEAKER_05All right, right. Okay, that's that's also true, right? Okay, uh, so I'm gonna say you won't either because vicarious uh living can't bring you happiness, or the novel gets into a lot of trouble. Yeah, Ruki.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so Yitsi just sparked something in my brain. I don't know if this is gonna be on my idea before or Yitzi is a new one. So we'll see where it fits. But I think that also it's interesting because when you think about like that concept that Yitzi was saying, like I think let's say in my case where we're talking about like the Avi Naval is also a Naval, the way that the kid is going to be a Naval will not be the same as how the father is a Naval. Right. And I think that that's where the Loya Smach comes from. That it's not going to be the same.
SPEAKER_05Okay, that's interesting. So so if the the the kid is carrying is is is uh is like a second generation novel, right? Uh in in a way. Yeah, not it's not a carbon copy, right? Uh it's going to likely be worse, right? Yeah. And uh and and and uh and that's where the The father uh miscalculates.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So like when you were talking, you were saying, like, you know, I'm also thinking about like all the movies, right? Yeah. Like, you know, it's one thing to like, you know, shoplift, and then it's another thing to like stab someone to shoplift, right?
SPEAKER_05Right, right. Yeah, yeah. That's that's a good example. Okay, so let's move on to the mufarshim. Now, usually we go to the David, okay? Here, look what he says. I don't even know if I can understand it, but he definitely doesn't help us, I don't think. He just says, Letugalo Yalid Davar Lhioslo Lituga. He gives, he begets something that is a grief to him. I don't know if he's trying to give us an interpretation of the whole puzzle. Like, this is to me, this is unusual when so David. Usually he likes gives us enough to work with. Um, I I think he is bothered by the double lamid that I was saying, the Litugalow. But I I don't have enough to work with here. So if anyone sees anything in that, let me know. Yeah, Yeti.
SPEAKER_01Um, I'm just understanding that he's not talking about a physical child, but he's like kind of a person's actions are like viewing that as the effects of what they do. Yeah, that could be that yeah, that the thing, the the consequences of his actions will be to God for him. Okay, right.
SPEAKER_05So let me just get that here. So, what is he saying or adding uh that the consequences of his actions will be sorry, his actions will be a cause of grief to him. Okay, yeah. Okay, but I I still don't think that gives us enough to work with the entire thing. Okay, so but let's do Rebean Yonah. Now, uh I when when we were translating the Pasuk, Yitzi and I both associated to the phrase Naval Brushu Satora. I associate to that from the Ramban uh on in Parshus Kadoshim, uh, which is Naval Brushu Satura is someone basically who um who keeps all the halakhos to the letter of the law but totally disregards the spirit of the law. So like we're talking, let's say, like someone who keeps kosher but like pigs out on on uh on kosher food, or someone who, you know, um uh like finds all the loopholes so that he doesn't have to give Tedaka, you know? Um so that kind of thing. But there is another association you could have. Can anyone think of another association to a category in Halacha or an activity in Halacha that has the word novel in it?
SPEAKER_08Like Naval Peh Yes, right.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, Nivelpeh, right? Okay, so Nivilpeh is vile speech, okay? And turns out a lot of the Mufarsim take that that route. Okay, let's hope I was remembering correctly, and that's Rabin Yonah so let's see what Rubin Yona says. So he says like this Haksiel, so he gets us nice definitions, like like the the the type of Rabinion comment that we like. He says, Hakil hu bal meos raus. The Xil is one is one who possesses uh bad uh meos, bad character traits, but gorin tugalavi, and causes grief to his father. Okay, so our go-to definition in Rabin Yonah is a um a veteran pleasure seeker um who is a balmasim raim, uh uh someone who does a lot of bad actions. Here, for whatever reason, he's emphasizing the the mitos. Okay, then he says, Ha Naval, the Naval, who hanivzev ha pachus, is the the degenerate uh lowlife, degen the gener degenerate lowlife, shlokana chachma, who has not acquired wisdom umalo sihlios, uh, or intellectual virtues. Um, vhuumi lushan, and it comes from the phrase, and I'm not going to translate all these in writing, um v achariso ye naval, uh his end will be naval, lushun yerida, uh implying uh descent, umbizion and and uh degradation uh or disgrace, yeah, degradation is fine. Uhim navalta bihizase im the Zamos Yadlape. That's the one we said initially. If you uh if you're knocked down when being when raising yourself up, so again, knocked down, shikutzim vnibaltich. I've cast upon you, you know, uh uh you know shikutim, you know, shekets, and you became uh disgusting. I think that's the the sense of it. Vloyikari odla naval nadiv, uh the naval will no longer be called a nadiv again. That's someone who is uh high up. Vaksiel uh ra minha naval. The xil is worse than the naval. And now here's what he says why is this? This is where we get this sharp contrast, kya xil holeis, because the kxil uh walks in the ways of of Mishlaic foolishness, the Hotsi Midos of Harazlafal, and expresses his bad midos in action. Okay, sorry, in action. Um Al Kane, therefore, nasan hatuga la avihaxil, it attributes grief to the father of the see Rivki, he doesn't uh seem to care about the uh uh the Yolid and the Avi because he calls them the Avi Haksiel, right? The father of the Xil. Um the Al-Avi and Naval uh Amar of Lo Yismach and says that the father, sorry, that the that the father of the Naval uh will not be happy. Kilo yimtsan nachas ruach the oshro. Oh, this is an interesting thing, because he will not find uh um satisfaction in his wealth, and will not rejoice in his possessions. Why midato, because he knows kiloyanichen uh that he will only bequeath it to a son who is degraded and and uh degenerate uh Vishlablo, and he uh will will rule over all his toil. Anyone know what he's referencing there?
SPEAKER_09In that last uh Briyata Dam al Khava?
SPEAKER_05Uh no, good good guess. It's a more explicit one. He's referencing Kohellas. So this is Koheles in uh in chapter uh two. This is why Shlomohamelach um you know gives up on wealth uh because he says um yeah, uh the Sanesi Ania Sa colo oh wait, yeah, the Sanesi Sakhaim, I I hated life. Uh the the deed that goes on under the sun is uh is not good, is bad. Uh everything is uh is uh you know ephemeral and uh frustration of spirit. I hated all of my toil, shaani amal takashemish, that I toil under the sun. Shianichenu la adam she akarai, I'm gonna leave it to a person who comes after me. Who knows if he's gonna be wise or foolish? And he'll dominate all of my toil, sha'amati, which I toil, shemish, uh, and that I I gain wisdom under the sun, Gamze Havel. So that phrase here of um of Vyishlod Bukh Amali, uh, he'll he'll rule over all my toil uh associating with having a son who's a fool. That's what this guy is gonna have for his uh his son who's a novel. So let's just summarize and then we'll get the idea. So summary here is kxil equals bad midos. Uh, and then he says, and you know, that express themselves uh in bad actions, but then a novel is um, yeah, I guess I I was uh I jumped the gun here. Rabbinion is not the one who says that's Nivel Pat. That's someone else. Um he says, but it is degenerate, though. He's saying a degenerate, uh degenerate person who is, you know. I know we have a word in Hebrew, boor, but I feel like boorish is a good description of what he's describing here, who is boorish, you know, um uh, you know, and hasn't developed his mind. Okay. Um and he applies it, and he's degraded, right? He's degenerate, a degenerate, degraded. Uh, what were the other words he used? Um Nivze is degenerate, Pahus inferior. You know, a low life is still good. Low life person who's bourgeois and hasn't developed his mind. Okay, so then he says that's point number one. Point number two is that the Xiel is worse because uh because of his actions, okay, but the father of the Naval will not be able to enjoy his own wealth because he knows that he'll be leaving it all to this uh uh this lowlife. So the question here is what is the main idea? And again, what is the the sense in the pairing? Right? I mean the the advantage of this remaining owner is it's very rich descriptions here of these two people, and we know what makes the the what's the cause of the grief, we know what's the cause of the uh the not happiness, but like he's not he's he's leaving it for us to tie together. And I think we have to think of it as advice for the father, right? I mean yeah and he does not make any deal about Yolaid at all, right? So we're not taking a judgment about who uh you know yeah, no, no, no, uh, no, no uh inferences from there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Stephanie.
SPEAKER_02Um, I think it can maybe um have a parent notice these qualities more in their kids, just keep an eye out to be like these will get you consequences, so you should really pay attention to when your kid has bad meetup and bad actions because you're around them a lot, so you're able to see their character when they're not like in school or in work where they're putting on a facade. And also, if let's say you have discussions with them and they're not really able to express themselves well or like understand certain things, you're their parent and you should teach them.
SPEAKER_05Okay, good. So the vice reminder not to leave these bamidos go unchecked uh because they'll they'll develop into these um uh they'll develop into these problems that cause you. I'm gonna use the term uh permanent in in uh permanent states of unhappiness. In other words, I I do like okay, I I have uh something specific that comes to my mind. I won't say what year it was, but uh someone quoted to me a parent who at a parent teacher conference said about their own kid, like, yeah, I know my kid's a jerk, you know, and like like forget what that says about that, but the person who told it to me was more surprised at how nonchalant the parent was, as if, like, kind of like what we were talking about before, as if, like, yeah, whatever, you know, lost cause, nothing I could do. And this this kid was not very old, you know, so there is definitely still room to like change stuff. But I feel like that might be an example. That's not exclusively who the public is talking to, but that's the type of parent who needs to hear this because if your kid is a jerk and they're still under your your your influence and you can't change things, that jerk is only gonna become a permanent source of grief in your life when they become an adult and start making bad decisions and then have their own kids who are jerks or marry someone who's a jerk, you know, like it's gonna be it's gonna compound. So, like, definitely act now. Um, so Stephanie, unless I missed it, that is a good overall message for the puzzle. I guess what I'm still looking for is I don't quite see why this specific pairing um of Xiel, the way Ravin Yona defines it, and Naval specifically.
SPEAKER_02Um, I think one is like more active and one is more passive in the things that they do.
SPEAKER_05Okay, that's that that that works. Okay, that works. So in other words, uh the pairing isn't because of XEL per se and Naval per se. Uh rather uh XEL is an example of an actively you know bad child, uh, and Naval is the kind that you might ignore, you know. And you know, both you know, the the there are there are ways a parent can rationalize not dealing with both, right? So for the Xiel, the parent can uh can like you know uh write him off as a lost cause, you know, or convince uh themselves convince himself that the kid will grow out of it, okay, uh, etc. So there's many different rationalizations. And then for the novel, um, the parent can uh downplay the problem by saying, you know, like at least he's not going out and uh you know robbing banks, you know, I don't know, like, or or you know, uh hold out for the kid to you know someday get his act together, you know. Uh and like that's not necessarily gonna happen. I think that gets to the point that Isaiah was making about like, like, it's not like this is just gonna automatically take care of itself, you know. So I think this is good. All right, I'm I'm happy with this for now. Uh yeah, Yeti.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just another um understanding of the Rabino Yona. I think what he's saying is insightful in that he is explaining two types of parental pain. There's one, this kid currently is doing actions that I think are bad, um, that are like embarrassing, shameful, you know, that don't live up to how I want my kid to be living. But then there's a more like uh there's one that's more of a slow burn, which is even if he's not going out and doing all these terribly embarrassing things and um living in such a horrible way, yeah. My like a parent can think that like my life, my legacy, and everything I worked for is just gonna be wasted because this person isn't developing into a chacham. Right. Um, so the the first type is is a lot more intuitive or like obvious when people think of it. But there's a khiddish of the passa of yeah, even if your kid's not specifically doing something that's very bad, yeah. Beware that their the legacy and like the work of your life is gonna be something painful if he doesn't if he doesn't shape up to be a chakra.
SPEAKER_05Okay, good. I think that's a good idea, also. Yeah, that's great. Okay, I do want to do the Malbin, but before I do that, I want to do a quick just uh get something from Zrachia Khain, um, who uh actually ties this puzzle. No, no. Uh hold on. Yeah, Zrachiachin. Okay, so he actually ties it to the previous Pasuk. What was the previous Pasuk?
SPEAKER_06The crooked of heart, wait Mishlay 1720.
SPEAKER_05Previous puzzle was uh one who is crooked of heart or mind will not find good, and one who is nepak with the shon, and one who reverses is reversing a speech will fall into bad. Okay, so he says the verse comes to uh Ba Lahodiacha, the puzzle comes to teach you Mashitzarak Lasos, the Khul of what every father needs to do, Shi Lobain, uh she lo bane, Xil O Naval, uh um to tell what any father who has a son who's a Xil or Naval should do. Lak Dimu bin Musar to preemptively give him Musar, to discipline him, Uliyasra, and to to uh punish him, to chastise him, Velo Yatir lo resin v tavosab and to not loosen the reins of his desires, Bushumpanim in any way. Um, Piresh Aher Shish Bh I wonder if this is a typo. Bahi Adam Shitstar Ruham Mirov Tavasam Lehios Lehem Bene Zaharim. This is the probably wanted to read though. Hold on. I'm just trying to figure out what what the uh the typo must have been. I think it's probably Bine Adam. Shish Bine Adam. Since there are people who are this is fine, shitham, that they're impatient, me rovosam, tavasam, due to their great desire, Leoslam Bene Bine Zaharim, to have uh uh children uh who are sons. They don't sense the fact that many times they might have a son who is a bad son, um who's destructive, achietuga alibo, until they uh to the point where they have uh depression in their heart. Okay, so so he's making he's making two points here. Okay, so summary is um that um this is talking to someone who does have a son who is a Xil or a Naval, uh, and telling him to keep up the the Musar and not again, this is Mishlayk Musar, this is not like fire and brimstone musur, and not loosen the reins of his desires. And again, I do think that this is, I mean, look, it's I don't think it's a secret that there are parents who spoil their children because they feel bad for them, you know. And if you have a kid who's a Xiel, he's gonna want to go out and do degenerate things. You you cannot let him indulge in that, thinking somehow convoluted away that that's gonna make things better. Like, no, it's gonna make things worse, you know. Um, so that's one. And then secondly, I this is the part that I really like is don't be so blinded by your desire for sons that you don't even sense, sorry, you don't even sense uh the possibility that you'll have a bad son who causes you grief. Okay. Um uh I have an example of this. Uh, and I actually uh happened to be in a text conversation with him beforehand, uh that David Warsaw, one of my friends, I remember hearing him, he had he has two daughters. Uh, and I remember him telling his oldest daughter, Malky, he gave me permission to share this. Uh I remember in one day he was uh at a shop as dinner and he looked at his daughter, Malky, and he's like, Malky, I'm so glad that you weren't a boy. And she said, Why? And he says, Because I would have totally destroyed you, you know, and he realized like if he had a if he had a firstborn son, he would have like all of his bad qualities would have come out in in in the sun and it would have like totally like like destroyed the uh you know uh the chances, you know. So um, so uh yeah, so what other ideas? I mean, I think that this is these are great ideas, okay, but but like what other main ideas are there here? I I feel like I I have an idea for the second the second half. Well let me say what I said for the first half, okay. For for for the first first half, um there are parents who give up um prematurely, okay, and others who not only give up, but make things worse, okay, by like giving in. All right. So like I again, I I I haven't been uh, you know, it's funny, like I'm I'm not a parent, but uh, and so the advantage of being a parent is you have a unique perspective on um on raising you know kids. The advantage of being a teacher is you have many examples that you've seen of parents who have raised kids well and poorly, and you see dozens, hundreds of them, you know. So like I have more of a pacet, even though I don't have the eon here, you know. So like like I have seen parents who who do not give up and they have a kid who's having troubles, behavioral troubles in ninth and tenth grade, or maybe even to 11th grade, but then they keep at it and then their kid turns around, you know. But if they had indulged the kid, who knows if that would have happened, and it might have turned out even worse. Um yeah, second idea though, I'll just say my second idea because I want to get to the model here, and people could jump in if they have other ideas, is that um is that uh don't let the fantasy of the kind of kid you want blind you to the possibility of getting the opposite. Okay, because if you do, you might continue to be blind or uh Or have your thinking uh distorted by that blind spot, uh, and that could lead to bad parenting decisions. So, in this case, right, let's say this person thinks, oh, I'm gonna have a son who's gonna have great metos, he's gonna be a great leader and all this stuff. And the kid starts off going starts uh going bad, right? The parent might be so deluded into this idea that of this like golden image of how he wants and expects the kid to turn out that he will not parent the kid correctly, and those bad qualities will will develop more. Place where, again, I unfortunately see this a lot is is you have uh fathers who are Tamil Khachamim, and they just have this premise that, of course, I'm an advocate when I've been raised to be a Tamil Khacham, and they don't realize that not every kid is suited to be a Tamil Khachamim. And but they they either force it on them or they're blind to the fact that the kid's not cut out for it, or they're blind to the fact that because the kid's not for uh cut out for it, then they're putting too much pressure, or or they don't notice that their kid is doing really bad stuff because they view them as a Tamil Khakam. So, like you can't let the fantasy of the kind of kid that you want blind you to the kid that you actually have. Yeah. Um, okay, now let's end with a mobim and see if this is uh in uh at all in line with what Rukeli said, because mobim again takes this uh seriously here. Yoli Xil Letugalo, Haksil Hu Lufamim Bal Chachma Yesera. So it starts off interesting. The Xil is sometimes a great Chachan, okay? Not like Seth's definition of the uh of the Xil, which is an intellectual deficiency. Raksha Tavaso Goverasalav Uma Averis Ainav Toli Chehu Shol. Uh, but his desires or his lusts overpower him and blind his eyes and lead him. Uh uh that's a weird word. Lead him sholel. By the way, this is the first time I'm trying out Claude for the translations here. This is a pretty, and I've edited all the translations by the way, so it's a pretty good translation. Vishksil mileda, there is such a thing as a Xil from birth, Shinola Baltaiva Betava, who's born with a very like um desire uh heavy nature. Vyishksil I deher go volume, but you can also become a Xil through habit and training. Uh oh and behold, he I think he will be a uh cause anger to the father of uh sorry, this kid will be a source of anger to the father, to one who is the father of a benxil. Nevertheless, if the the the foolishness is innate, then even though he won't rejoice, he will not be filled with with sadness. Because there's hope that he will uh sorry, makave, he'll he'll hope that the kid can be trained on a good path and abandon his foolishness. But if a person begets axil, who's naturally aksil, that's going to be a source of depression for him. Okay, so that that is like Rukheli was saying, is that he that this guy gives birth to a Xil and there is no hope to change him because he's just he's wired that way. And the father of a novel will not um uh rejoice, a novel shekha nadiv, the novel who's the opposite of the uh I don't know if this means a generous person, I assume so. Who le rove alphergal that usually comes about through habit. There you go, Rivki. There is a father of a novel who teaches him and trains him to be a novel like him, and he rejoices in this. Aval Lo Yismach Avi Naval, but he will not oh sorry, yeah, yeah. Wait, Sh Aviv Naval. Oh, yeah, yeah, fine. Aval Yismach Avinavel, but uh the father of a novel will not rejoice. Because in the end, he'll he'll know that his uh his simcha is is for grief. Okay, so so the summary here is there are two kinds of Xiel, um uh you know, genetic and by training. If you have a son who is a XIL by training, okay, there's hope that he can be cured. Okay, but if you have a son who is born a XEL, then there's there's no hope. Okay, um, sorry, there's no hope. All right, um, in contrast, a Naval who is the opposite of a generous person, um is made that way through training, and his father might consciously raise him to be a novel, uh thinking that he'll rejoice in in having a son like that, but in the end, it will be a cause of grief. I just forgot to insert the definition here. Two kinds of which is a um uh someone who may be very intelligent, but whose desires uh overpower him, blind him, and lead him astray. Okay, so the question here is what's the main idea? Elements of what everyone said, right? Elements of what what uh Rukeli said because he's born a Kasil, element of what Rivicki said because he's raising his kid to be a novel, um Elements of what uh our definition of Kasil is in a way is that his uh he's overpowered by his desires.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Rukeli.
SPEAKER_09In both cases, don't give up on your kid.
SPEAKER_05So that's interesting. I mean, that that's what I'm I'm troubled by, right? Doesn't it sound like he's saying that Yolet Xil Letugolo? That if you Yeah, you know this really does actually sound like your husband's idea, right? Uh I mean it's not that it's not the same definitions, but it's the same structure. He's saying if you you you you beget a Xil, then you could be depressed in the sense that there's nothing you could do about it. But if you if you raise a novel, there there's still room to change him, and don't raise him as a novel, just because you're not generous, don't raise him in the same way thinking that like it's gonna work out. No, it's gonna be even worse. Which, by the way, uh just as an example of that, uh, let's be before we do the example of this, example of uh of why raising a novel won't work out for the father is guess where the kid, again, if novel means uh is the opposite of someone who's generous, guess where the kid is gonna um is gonna probably exercise uh suddenly become frugal in the father's old age, uh this this uh this ungenerous kid may not want to care for him. Okay, and that's not going to go well. That's just one one example. I'm not saying that's the entire thing. Yeah. So best candidate for the main idea here is I think this is like similar to Seth's structure, is if you give birth to a genetic seal, then there's practically no hope. But if you you find yourself um raising a novel, you better reverse course, uh, or else he'll come to uh be a source of grief for you. See, this is really why, by the way, it is important to ask the question what's the subject of the puzzle? Because we were looking for unity in the two, but we've now seen several approaches where the real subject is a novel, it's not a Xil. The Xil is the the baseline case, the novel is the case that it's actually talking to, or the Avi novel, I mean. Yeah. Okay, I think this is a very good haul for a puzzle that has no uh or that has a very few mufarshim. I actually we did not get to one where the novel is someone who speaks a Nival Peh. Um let me just show you what one looks like there. Uh I forgot who said it though. Oh yeah, the Rinachmias says that the Xiel has bad midos, but the novel is Madabir Naval Navalos. Al Kane Amor Xil Tugolo of Naval Lo Yismach. So I that that's interesting. Uh uh, it's a novel case. I'm missing the pun if that's a pun. Um oh, novel. Oh, that's funny. Yes, yes. Uh okay, I got it, I got it. Um, yeah, yeah. I I did I was curious to see what what uh comparing a Xil to someone who's uh uh um has Nivel Pad because the Xil is living out a hedonistic life, but the the not the Nivel Peg guy is just speaking viely, and I thought that'd be interesting approach to take, but uh, I don't think I have enough energy left uh now. I think we're at a good stopping point. Okay, so let's just do a quick review here. So we had Yitzi's idea slash my idea, which is that um both sukim are about parenting mistakes, um, about raising a kid um in a way where you think you're going to experience a certain type of enjoyment. Um right, in other words, the the father in the novel. Oh, sorry, the father of the novel thinks that okay, fine, my kid's just a novel. He's not the best kid in the world, but like, but at least he's not going on doing bad. But no, that could come back to to bite you, and you're gonna be unhappy about that. Uh, you're just gonna be depressed because your kid's like uh uh you know in your basement until he's like 40. Um uh or uh or with Xiel uh is he's training his kid to be a Xiel. Yeah, it's funny. The more I've seen people say the Avi novel, I don't and the Yolet Xil, I'm I'm not as keen on this interpretation anymore, on Yeti's interpretation. I think that Yolid, I'm I'm starting to see that it is talking about like you're that the the it's not a Xil raising Axil. I'm not trying to the whole idea, but as a parish, I'm not entirely sold on it. Okay, then we had Isaiah's, which is that the begetting Axil is expressing this idea that he basically didn't raise him. He just like he just had the kid, and like he's not taking any responsibility and not really taking any parenting, and he turns out to be a Xil. And then the Naval, he's an Avi novel. He produced the Naval through his like desire seeking a certain type of simcha from him. So both of them are gonna turn out unhappy. They're both having opposite mistakes in parenting. One's not parenting enough, the other is not parenting too much, but is forcing the kid to be an object of their own delight, and that's gonna lead to rebellion. Um Rukheli's idea uh uh is that um uh that the father who has a kid who's born as a Xil does have a right to be depressed, not a right to be depressed, but like might naturally be depressed because there's nothing he could do. And Rukeli's saying that the the practical implication is that he should really just he should really realize that no, there still is, you know, there still are ways to be happy beyond that. Whereas the father of the novel, who was responsible for that, should be depressed in a certain way because it's his uh he contributed to it. Um Seth's idea is the one I think I really like, other than the definitions, which is that um you may not be able to do anything if you're Yolid Xiel, but if you're an Avi novel, then you gotta like man up and be the father that you Michelay says you should be, which is to raise your kid to not be a novel. Uh and that pairs with the Malbum's idea also of don't actively encourage his his being a novel, uh, that's gonna make things even worse. You're not gonna get the satisfaction that you want. And then we have this really pretty uh good idea from Yitzi, uh, which is that um if you think you're gonna have vicarious happiness through your novel kid's lifestyle, you're not gonna get that happiness. And uh either because it's vicarious or of the kid uh because of the kid's actions. Then we have Rabinu Yona, who is basically saying that um you have to nip these bad mitos in the bud, uh, or these bad uh uh mishlayc uh tendencies in the bud. Uh otherwise it's just gonna become a permanent source of your unhappiness. And there are two types of parental pain. There's the pain of the Xil who's actively going out doing bad things, and then there's the pain of the Nabal, who's just like a loser who's not even using his mind. Uh, and then we have the Zrach Yahin who says um that where do we go here? Oh, yeah, that uh don't give up if you find yourself raising a novel or uh uh a Xil, there's still hope, and and don't give in to them and don't be blind by the type of sun you want, uh, because that could actually cause you to get the wrong kind of starters to raise them in the wrong way. Okay, very good ideas. I'm happy with that. And next pasuk uh is gonna be in a couple weeks. Uh, what is our next pasuk? I just want to see if it's uh refresh my memory here. Uh, I'm in the wrong chapter. Whatever. We'll look at it next time. Okay, thanks for coming and see you in a couple weeks. Everyone have a Hag Kashiva Samach.
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_05Bye. Hug Samayah.