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The Mishlei Podcast
The Mishlei Podcast
Mishlei 25:21-22 - Mishleic Revenge is a Dish Best Served (Part 1)
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Mishlei 25:21-22 - Mishleic Revenge is a Dish Best Served (Part 1)
(כא) אִם רָעֵב שֹׂנַאֲךָ הַאֲכִלֵהוּ לָחֶם וְאִם צָמֵא הַשְׁקֵהוּ מָיִם. (כב) כִּי גֶחָלִים אַתָּה חֹתֶה עַל רֹאשׁוֹ וַיְיָ יְשַׁלֶּם לָךְ:
Length: 43 minutes
Synopsis: This morning (3/25/26), in our Morning Mishlei shiur, we began learning a pasuk I’ve learned and taught DOZENS of times, one of my favorite “introductory pesukim.” It may not follow the structure of a typical Mishlei pasuk, but it exemplifies Mishlei’s approach to decision-making and character development. Today we came up with two approaches of our own and learned two meforshim who share the approach I usually teach. Tomorrow (בג"ה) we’ll be on the hunt for chidushim, especially in the derech nistar.
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מקורות:
משלי כה:כא-כב
מצודת ציון/דוד
רלב"ג
רמב"ם - משנה תורה: ספר נזקין - הלכות רוצח ושמירת הנפש יג:יד
מגילה דף טז עמוד ב
רמב"ם - מורה הנבוכים ג:נג
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Okay, so as I mentioned in the in the chat, this is uh uh I've done this plus so many times um uh because I think it's a really good introduction to Michlay, even though it's not the normal Mishlei format, but it's a good introduction to Mishleyc uh decision making and ethics. Ethics, if you want to call it that. Um so the challenge will be to get new ideas. Okay, and uh for that reason I am I might err more on the side of uh preemptively doing the Derek Nister, but we'll we'll see where it goes. Okay. Um Mishlay 25, 21 through 22. Im Raiv Sonacha Ha achilehu lachem, vim tsame hashkehu maim ki gehalim ata hose al rosho, varashem yishalim lach. What's the translation?
SPEAKER_09If your enemy is starving.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if your enemy is, I don't think we have to say starving, hungry, right? I think uh yeah, I don't think there's a way to say hungry that's not rah'aiv. So yeah, hungry. I thought rah meant like quarreling or the uh reev is quarreling, but not with the iron, yeah. Uh so yeah, hachile lachen feed him bread, feed him bread, vimsame, thirsty is thirsty, drink him water, yeah. Right. There's no good way to say that in English, right? Provide water for him to drink. I think you have to say provide provide to drink, right?
SPEAKER_09Uh because you are putting um old coals on what's close that's putting.
SPEAKER_01I think shoveling. I that's how I would say shoveling uh coals onto his head.
SPEAKER_08Hashem will pay you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Hashem will, yeah, pay you is good. Okay. Have we not? Let's uh let's look. I I I feel like that's a the only I'm not questioning because of your judgment, I'm questioning because it's a pattern in teaching Mishlay that people often say that, and then I it's like Hashem is all over the place. Uh you appear to be correct. Yes, all right, good. All right, um, okay. Um, all right, so uh hold on. Okay, so uh Matus Sion says, Jose Inano, shevas ha ish mihayakode uh come lachatos ish miyakode, yeah. Um so it is the shoveling of fire from the uh pyre, I think is the Yakode. Uh yeah. Um do you know the uh Shadal's um theory about the etymology of Kodesh? That Kodish comes, he he thinks Kodish comes from Yakodish, from like a pyre of fire because that's how they used to bring Korbanos, and then it became a new shoresh of Yakod H became Kodesh. Um so that's a he says it's a theory. Okay. Um Sadigun, there's no um there's no kaffik on this, so I assume that it's a straight translation. I don't know Judeo Arabic. Targumksuvim says, In kafin san ach, if your enemy is hungry, okle lahma, feed him bread in tsache, and if he's thirsty, ashke myim. Mutud gumre denurah uh uh chase ant al-Reshe. Because um, so gumre denurah just makes it clear that it's flaming coals, which I think is the flame shot. Um the laka nishalme lach. I don't know if there's some sort of like nuance in the grammar of Nishalme Lach, the Nishalme. I don't I just don't know enough of grammar about that, but I just want to read it in case someone hears this and like, oh, that means something special. All right. Um, okay, then we've got art scroll. If your foe is hungry, feed him bread. If he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will be scooping coals uh to heap upon his head. Uh and Hashem will reward you. Rehearse says if your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat, and if he's thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will heap coals on his head, and God will reward you. Now, Altar says something interesting. If your foe is hungry, feed him bread, and if he thirsts, give him water, for you would heap live coals on his head, and the Lord will pay you back. Now, I've never seen this before, but look what he says in the commentary. And usually I don't go into interpretations this early, but like this is this puzzle. I don't know why he says you would. Um uh says present tense, it's imperfect.
SPEAKER_08So have you done?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. That's also yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Um, so uh Alter says some understand this to mean that the Lord will reward you, which is how we understand it. Reward you for showing humanity to your enemy. But the verb also means to requite or punish. Uh, and that sense is a better match with the idea of heaping coals upon the foe's head in the first verses. If you are inhumane to your enemy, the Lord will requite it of you. So I don't know if that's shot, but it is interesting reading that you shalim is also pay you back, like in a in a punishy way, right? Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_07If you do good, then God will do good, and then if you do bad, then yeah, correct.
SPEAKER_01So so I I think actually the best English translation probably will pay you back, right? So that that preserves the ambiguity. So yeah, okay, so questions. Well, that is one question is like what does uh Yeshalim um lach mean uh in the shot? Um uh reward or payback, you know, punishment style. Punishment style, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Who is your enemy? Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh who is sorry, who is your uh son Achai? The reason why I typed how is because uh uh no, I was associated, I I didn't even hear you say that. Uh maybe that's why I typed it, but I was thinking of the um uh okay, I always forget where this is. Um where is the uh unloading your enemies um oh uh it's in Bihira?
SPEAKER_09No, it's not okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know it's in like a non-intuitive place, right? Yeah, yeah, right. Uh so I just wanted to uh read that um just to get this on the table here. Uh where are we? Yeah, yeah. I'm blind to it, yeah. All right. Um okay, so uh it's at the very, very end, right? Where he says this Hasone Amur Batorah is in Rutseaf Ushmer Znefish 13, 14. Hasone Amur Batorah, um Y Israel. So the Sonia in the Torah is a Jew. Uh Lom the Um Solom, not a non-Jew. The Heach Yiheli Israel Sonim Yisrael. How can you have such a case? I've never, I can't even contemplate that a Jew would hate one uh another Jew. Um Kaz Bomer, which is funny because that's not a halachic um argument, because uh the the isr is to hold the hatred in your heart. It's not user to hate your Jew, it's to us her to harbor the hatred, right? So, like, and and and the wrong even says if you if you hit the guy or insult him, then you're not over that isr. So, like, even that in other words, that isr is presupposing that there is a person who you could hate, and it's just ustering you from holding it in. So, because so the halakha is if you hate someone and you refrain from expressing it, then you're over the issir of Los Akh of Bakah. But if you so the bad way to not be over the isr is you punch the guy or you insult him, but then you're not over the isra anymore. The what the Torah wants you to do is to approach him in constructive dialogue, you know. Um, but it's not, but I I think people commonly think it's an isr to feel hate for another Jew, and uh it's not, uh, even though it's a bad midah Amru Khamim Kagon Shirahu Lovado Shah Avar Avera, the Hisra bov Lokhazar. So the Khachamim say about our case of if you see uh the the you know donkey of your enemy, um, it's if you see the guy do an avera and you warn him and he doesn't uh go back, harizom mitzvah mitzvah the sano, it's a mitzvah to um to hate him, a chiase to chuva biyakter mi risha until he does chuva and returns from his hate, uh his uh his wickedness. Yeah, so I guess the question here, the only reason bringing up, who's your sonaha? Uh to what extent is this, you know, I guess objective or subjective? Um and um and like I guess defined by feelings versus actions, right? Like another sonha could also mean um the guy who is antagonizing you in action, meaning he might hate you, but that might not be enough to make him a sonnet, you know, or you might hate him, right? Um okay. Oh, I guess also and uh and um to what extent does this even matter? Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_09How is feeding him like putting coals on the head?
SPEAKER_01Right. How is feeding him and giving him water like putting coals on his head? Yeah, no try.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, um what does what do your actions have anything to do with God reading?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. Um, so what about what is the cause and effect um between your actions toward your enemy uh and how God relates to you? Um another question, I guess, is practically speaking, um, what is included in um in hunger, thirst, and feeding, providing uh drink? In other words, uh is this limited to, I don't know, these exact actions or any physical needs or any acts of of uh tzedaka and chesed? You know, like uh how far does this, you know, how far does this go? Like, should you give the guy a job? You know, exactly even more, you know, uh, should you, you know, I mean, compliment him? I mean, what uh yeah, what are the parameters? Yeah, what are the parameters? What are the parameters? Yeah, Moshe.
SPEAKER_06How often are you interacting with giving him?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06How interesting are you giving him, right?
SPEAKER_01Okay, correct, right. Uh I actually I'm going to, rather than asking it as a factual question, I'll include that in the parameter question, which is that like um uh I guess like what's the what's the shear of interaction um of interaction? Meaning like uh is this intended to be uh not intended to be. Is this is is Shlomo talking about a one-time thing or a uh an established uh pattern? Yeah. Uh yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_02What's being added by Hashem Michal Imag?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I wouldn't say what's being added, like that is the kiddish. The the Puzik would not have a point if it didn't say that.
SPEAKER_02Well I I think the puzzle is I would say the point is Kiga Khalamata Hosel Rosho. That seems to be the that seems to me where the to be where the where the kiddish is.
SPEAKER_01I I I I don't think that's a good question. I think I mean I I think the question is what does it mean? Um and you could I'll be willing to grant you I can say um I can say like what um I guess what is the relationship in the kiddish between uh Gechalim Ata Kose Al-Rosho and uh Varashem Yeshalim Lach. I I don't think it's a good I want to drive home this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I uh yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01I guess I uh let me just express my initial reaction to what you're saying, and then you can correct it or you can uh argue against me, is that um there is a category of question in Mishlay, which I think amounts to why is the puzzlock um talking about this topic or making this point rather than talking about a different topic or making another point. And sometimes it's hard to tell, you know, where that line is. Like if a puzzle, for example, I think we had this a couple earlier in the paragraph. The puzzuk, like, I don't know, mentions three, three I don't know, subjects, right? So so it is a question, what's the common denominator? But those are like the facts of the puzzle. You know, so in other words, here the most I would say is the facts are he wants us to know two things attachalim al-Rosho, uh uh Kiata uh Gekalim Ata Kos al-Rosho and Arshem Ishalim Lach to say what's the point of one as if you're asking about both of them, why are both necessary? That's the question I I would approve of. But asking like treating as though the Gechalim Ata Khaz al-Rosho is the main point and saying Hashem will will reward you. I don't know if that is a if if that if that's like the uh the intended issue. Yeah, Isaac, what do you want to say?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think um when you asked it, I realized that um the the issue is but really I have mistaken like premise of what that means, those readings to the post sec, which is that like you'll get whatever the consequences of your actions are, which is uh right.
SPEAKER_01So that was it to Alter's reading. Uh right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that yeah, I I think the uh the what do you call it, the plane shot is that Hosham will reward you. I I think again, I haven't done a survey of the parishment in a long time, but I'm expecting that that's what we'll find.
SPEAKER_02Okay, yeah. I guess accord so I to refine my question. I'd say according to Alter's reading, um, why is the PUSIC making the point that you'll get the consequences of you know either positive or negative? Um isn't that the case with any action? Like that's that's kind of what I was asking about. Um what is it adding? Uh I uh I could try to repeat it.
SPEAKER_01So instead of asking what it's adding, let's just say what does it mean uh according to Alter, right? Uh according, I guess. Oh no, we already said this, yeah. No, I still don't think that's a good question because that is the point of the puzzle. The puzzle has to tell you that there is a consequence to your action. Now, what is the consequence is a good question, but I don't think the puzzle could exist without saying the consequence. Yeah, that's my that's my take. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, Moshe Levin.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, is this supposed to provide some um like uh character benefit to you, or is it just to like improve society? You want that out of relationship.
SPEAKER_01Okay, right. Yeah, so let's actually I I want to ask that in a different way, which is um what is the practical application? And then to what extent is this advocating this behavior proactively, right? Um, and to what extent is this saying that that uh you know, like again, taking it um I mean it's fine because the if is the condition, but uh, you know, this is saying like like, you know, isn't it good against God of a warrior or is it? Uh that uh I was gonna say to what extent is this saying like hold on a second, to what extent is this advocating this behavior proactively um uh and using the um reward as an incentive? Um and to what extent actually not to what extent is this uh Posuk advocating this behavior proactively and using the word as an incentive or uh is the main point that if you want this reward, uh you should do this, but there's no imperative uh to uh to uh engage your enemy at all.
unknownRight?
SPEAKER_01In other words, like should you seek this out? Should you seek out opportunities to do this? Um, or or no, like if you find yourself in a circumstance where you happen to have this, you know, like yeah, should you should you seek out opportunities uh to do this, either now put your what you said, either for your yourself or for your or for for being out of the javero or for society, um or for society as a whole, um or is this just like uh the best um um course of action if you should happen to find yourself uh in this scenario. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_08Assuming the reading that Hashem's giving you good. Yeah, can we infer that this is like a bad son alpha? Like he's a bad person?
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, I'll put this um uh okay. So who's your son uh? And I'll say like what can or can't be inferred from the fact uh that Hashem is rewarding rewarding you. Now are you saying, sorry, did you say um can you infer from the fact that Hashem is rewarding you that this is an objective or subjective?
SPEAKER_08Objective.
SPEAKER_01Objective.
SPEAKER_08Like you're harming him seemingly because you're putting cold on his head.
SPEAKER_01Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_08Well that maybe not.
SPEAKER_01I I was I I was thinking the exact opposite.
SPEAKER_08Right, I know that's what's weird. The first one's like sounds good. The first one, but the second one sounds like somehow when you're doing that, you're really just putting cold on his head, which is bad. Uh-huh. Being bad for now. Yeah, right. And SM's rewarding you for doing something bad to him. So I would say.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Cause uh because I would think also that if this guy is actually bad, then maybe you shouldn't do this at all.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and therefore this is totally in the subjective realm. Um uh and and also the fact you usually sonachha, and maybe this is already taking a stance on it, but like uh I guess let me um let me uh I'll just put this into the question is like like um what can or can't be inferred from the possessive um son acha as opposed to Russia, right? Which is not rusha ha. No one would say that, right? Because that's an objective thing. Um, I also wanted to say, um, oh yeah, what is not just what's the cause and effect, but like um how are how are we supposed to sorry, how are we supposed to read the relationship between the the two actions? In other words, is this saying that A, you are feeding him and pouring hot coals, or B, you are you you know, you you might um think you're feeding him, uh, but really you're pouring hot coals. I think those are two different readings, right? There might be a third reading also. Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Is the pocket adding anything by having both food and water mentioned in the case?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's another good question. Right, right. Um, is it uh I want to include that in the parameters question. Uh which question is that oh uh yeah, practically, yeah. Um is it necessary to mention food and water, or is that stylistic? Uh and then and and either way, what what is it uh adding? Right. Yeah, I mean I can see it, for example, being that if it was just Lechem. No, I I think you can make arguments both ways. Yeah. Yeah, Isaac.
SPEAKER_02I mean look at the local cluster just to see if there's any yeah, good point.
SPEAKER_01And I think we mentioned this is the last one in the local cluster. Uh let me display the time in. Yeah, okay, so oh no, no, this is the first one in a new local cluster. Okay. There you go. Look at it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Ideas. Anyone want to say the obvious one?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, if you have conflict or something, intuitively you want to do it be aggressive and reasonable or you know, whatever it is. Um, but we can make the situation worse because it's like you already have components, but you guys don't like each other. You have principally supposed to be on further than compounds and it's not going to resolve anything. And it's objectively not a good thing to do to end up saying more.
SPEAKER_01All right, good. So let me say all three. It'll just make things worse and um it won't solve the problem. I usually say that the other way around, right? It won't it won't resolve anything. Uh and it'll likely exacerbate the problem, and it's objectively wrong. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Rather, what you should do is conquer your actual feeling to be over the content. Because what's gonna happen is when he sees that uh you're gonna be a kind of uh people will drop his aggression defensible down to there's no reason to have a conflict. I'd see that we can have a kind of relationship. You can demonstrate with your actions that the conflicts are necessary.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so what's the coles?
SPEAKER_05The hot poles in his head is just the feeling of shame and embarrassment.
SPEAKER_01Uh okay, all right. So conflict. All right, so he'll drop his aggression out of the shame. Okay, uh burning coals. Uh, and that will open a path to a new relationship. Yeah, there definitely is uh there definitely are interactions like this. Um I just read a thing where um someone was on an airplane and he saw he had a um uh a Jewish guy had uh he, the Jewish guy saying this, had a backpack with like the Israeli flag on it. And like he saw the guy next to him take a photo and then saw like saw like the the him type something anti-Semitic that he like sent the photo to someone else, you know. So he thought about calling the guy out for it, you know, but then he's thinking to himself, okay, I'm with this guy on a flight for a long time. Maybe I'll try a different approach. So he started making conversation with the guy and then started finding out some like some sort of common ground about they both like poker. And then he started and then like the guy's like attitude transformed after that, you know. So it was you know a good example of this. of of like you don't give into your your inclination. And I I think people I think the point you made is Craig's like people don't stop to think, how am I exacerbating this? Or how is the if I act antagonistically how is this going to exacerbate it? Uh could we just stop and think about why is that? Like it's an obvious thing. You know? I mean I think part of it is like and it's so funny how this how many places this interferes in people feel there's a sort of like I it's a combo of like a righteous indignation right with emphasis on the righteous and a feeling that you need to punish the guy somehow. And like I think the way we think of punishment in general which is also not good is like punishment is an end in and of itself and therefore like my thought stops after the punishment. Like I punish the guy he gets what he deserves and then that's it. Like people don't think about it in a consequence based framework. So like yeah you punish the guy first of all he's not going to relate to it as a punishment he's gonna he's gonna relate to it as aggression or as a confirmation of his uh negative assumptions about you and then he's gonna retaliate because he's not looking like it's just a whole insane framework that you're starting off on the wrong foot in. Yeah that's really interesting. Yeah. Okay. And so now just to make sure I understand you're saying that the Hashem um ooh sorry hold on so let me ask you a question first. Yeshalim Lach the reward is the beneficial relationship yeah I'm I'm saying that he's just gonna have um more ability with him right okay right so so Hashem will reward you through providing this like amicable uh new uh relationship um I wonder now I don't know grammar but like if you could no you can't do that I was gonna say um because this reminded me of another puzzle um initially I think I'm imagining this I don't think I am though and then we'll go to Isaiah Isaac and emotional initially yeah your enemies will make peace with you I was wondering if you could read that here but I think Ishalim Lach is gonna work uh grammatically so that would that would have been nice though um okay uh Isaiah okay yeah so um I learned this topic recently um so I have an idea for it okay um so I think we learn it together yeah I know uh at at Ans, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah yeah so I think a person when they have enemies um like they want to take revenge on their enemies but it's bad to take revenge on your enemy it's not like a productive thing and it causes harm. Right. So what you can do is you can do nice things for your enemy speed them um and what that does is it causes them to um get very mad because you're in they're in a conflict with you. They dislike you for whatever reason um so they're like sort of being forced to accept the good from you or they're they are accepting good for you even though they don't really like the fact that they're doing that. So there's the cold getting heaped on their head is they're getting pretty angry about that.
SPEAKER_01And don't really remember trying to remember what we said first I'm actually because when when we learned together I was quoting the Matsudis David I just want to go straight to David here. Sounds good yeah so uh huh velocitur losina don't uh bear a grudge of hatred against him uh don't hold hatred in for him so bameshita by feeding him yet gechalim lasis al Rosho then you're causing him pain as if you are shoveling uh hot coals from the pyre onto his head all usher tigmo lo tova al hara because he'll be very ashamed uh at the fact that you paid him back good um in uh in payment for his evil nakama even though this is considered revenge because you're doing it to cause him pain yeshalim sachart sadaka god will reward you with the reward of tzadaka okay so um I say I'm just gonna correct this to Matsu David okay even though even though you uh were the one brought it up um so um so so in other words like this is uh the the common inclination is to take revenge on your enemy for wronging you but that is usur uh not to mention bad for the reasons stated below um uh instead uh you can he doesn't say loophole i think it is loophole you can you can uh use the mishlayc loophole of engaging in actions which are objectively sadaka okay i.e you know providing his actual needs um and in doing so you are causing him pain from the shame um and even though your motive is nakama hashem will reward you with the reward uh of tsidaka and by that i understand to mean that like you know it is a lolishma right this uh this is definitely uh a lolishma um uh but that counts right i mean you are doing tsidaka to this person right um so yeah i think that's an interesting thing and i'll give the same example i gave before um and i will record this is that there was uh you you might have heard me say this before but there was a person um who for I think decades just spoke a ton of lush andhara about our yeshiva and our rosha yeshiva um and it was a known thing like like anytime I remember I ran into this guy in my second year of yeshiva I was in a bookstore and he didn't know me very well but he knew me by appearance and he saw me he didn't know I was in yeshiva and he said you know uh you know what are you doing in New York I said I'm in such as yeshiva he just starts bad mouthing the yeshiva just in public and just on the spot you know so fast forward um someone who is a friend of the yeshiva um had a wedding for their their offspring and uh I'm trying to be uh you know concealing identity here and the our Rosheshiva was invited and was asked to speak you know oh sorry it wasn't a wedding it was a wedding between the the this guy who's a friend of the yeshiva um his offspring married this son's daughter uh I gave it away yeah um and so our Roshiva was invited and he spoke and our Roshishiva basically just the center of his speech the theme of his speech was just praising this guy for being a balt Sadaka you know uh just like and this is the first time they ever interacted you know and so he's getting up and just praising this guy publicly for being such a balt Sadhaka and I can imagine this guy was just burning with uh with shame because he'd just been speaking all this bad stuff for years about the Rojiva and the first thing Rojiva says is how great this guy is you know so that to me that's like the paradigmatic uh example of this. Now it is slightly different than the case in the puzzle because the puzzle is talking about Sadaka and I wouldn't call that Sadaka I would call that if anything like like he's saying something good about him. You're not taking care of someone's actual like um needs I don't I don't think you know yeah as um this idea most of the ideas seem like yes they do it's like when is each one true yeah right right so so the question is um what are the parameters uh you know between these ideas and at you know and and and uh and how do we reconcile the conflict and just put that in in more concrete terms here is like like isn't there a chance that this will make the guy hate you even more and he'll uh he'll exacerbate things yeah good question yeah also sorry just a separate s separate point in terms of yeah could be it's also like in terms of society beneficial now when you try to think of a chance a guy right exactly right in society yeah right that's also true right um uh moreover um if everyone if every vent vengeful person uh person in society um did this society would be better yeah I'll also want to say here oh I one thing I just want to clarify here is uh clarification this is not talking about an actual Russia I don't think because I don't think that you should you know I mean I I know Israel does this with its enemies of like providing food for its enemies and letting go their uh their people in in jail for you know in prison right like you know I I think like like you know uh because there's no reason to uh I guess and it's not just there's no reason because it's bad to enable your your you know someone who is objectively evil to harm you even more so and then that that's where my question is here is like what if this prompts him to actually antagonize you more yeah and that does happen sometimes by the way is like the guy is so upset about his own uh he he's so ashamed that he takes it out on you you know um because he can't stand the the the or he can't stand the dependence yeah maybe it's what's unique here is that he's very ashamedful but he realizes that the more he antagonizes you further the more shame he's gonna have that's interesting you're being nice to him like if he furthers that that makes it even worse for him so it sort of stops it stops let's trap something into it yeah I do is that likely to happen I'm I'm just wondering like is that I guess I'm saying that if you're doing good stuff to him that he could get really upset about it. Yeah but if he starts harming you more it's gonna only make him look worse oh I see right right okay so in other words um so if your your your your enemy realizes that if he continues to harm you after this then uh then it'll just make him look worse. Now that's that's provided uh that people know about this right because uh because if you're doing it in private it's just gonna be more shame you know yeah all right let's do uh the other two ideas here first yeah Isaac so um I have one thing to add on to Mocha's idea yeah um which is just that um an analogy that I heard that I think is good which is uh imagine the conflict is like a fire um to think about whether your response is going to pour water on the fire or pour gasoline right yeah yeah yeah I think there's a natural tendency to want to do something that where you're pouring gasoline because like because you know um that's like the the like satisfying thing but but pouring water will actually you know right in the fire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah uh and then you also yeah question about the POSIC yeah so um so this um it says if he's hungry and if he's thirsty yeah um does that mean that the that you're only able to if you have a someone that you have if you have a Sony are you only able to um do this POSIC if he's in a situation of need or is this um applicable even if he doesn't have needs that you could meet?
SPEAKER_01Right. So also are we to infer from the the uh it im that you're only able to implement this when he's in a situation of need. So the way I was explaining it with the Matsudis David is that um in order for it to be tsidaka I do think there has to be a need. I don't know if um it's a good question about uh if this is just chesed would that also work you know or Zadavka Tsadaka so that's one thing we have to think about and then the other thing also yeah I can think about that for one second. And then in term but in terms of the phenomenon of the Gehalim I don't think that has to be a need.
SPEAKER_00I think it could just be if you go out of your way to do something nice for someone even if they're not in a state of need then they're gonna feel ashamed for having uh abused you you know yeah yeah Mosha um yeah I think uh this post is about a real Russia oh it's speaking about when he's already down so he's either rave or he's yeah he's hungry or thirsty and the question is how do you like dominate him? Yeah so you might think that you if he's already going on his bad path and he's already suffering you should leave him there and that's going to cause him the most harm. But the khidish is that I mean I think it's in line with some of the ideas we mentioned is that actually feeding him and providing him with what he needs creates this like dependence on you. And I think that's where like the shame comes from I think you mentioned that but really now psychologically he's dependent on you and that's like the Coles and that's and that's ultimately the way to uh dominate the relationship.
SPEAKER_01Okay that's the way to dominate the relationship yeah okay so that that's interesting I I I'll support what you're saying from the midrash uh that Isaiah and I were talking about and this is difficult um uh I'm actually gonna show it inside I don't remember anyone know offhand where the Ma rasa Esther Shazimnes Haman Gemara is I mean I know it's a Miguel but um I think it's like on Yudgimel through yeah that's clear uh probably easier if I just do ma rasa ester um so the the context is why did Esther invite Haman uh to the Mishtaos um instead of just asking Akash Verosh to let the Jews go. So one of the so there there's like what I think 13 answers or something like that 11 answers uh and then one of the answers that's given is Rabyushua Omer the yeah testvaise Rabyushua Omer in Miguel Mibes of Lambda she learned it from her father's house Shnemar Imra Ivesona Hahahilehule okay uh and it quotes our pasak so the problem though so that that supports the idea that you know Hamun was an actual Russia right uh but what's the problem with that was saying that that was her motive ostensibly forget Moshe's idea for a second because Moshe might uh be able to solve this yeah she's gonna go uh uh okay so one one possibly is the plans to is to kill him but I don't think you have to say that because we don't really know we know that that's how the story ends. I don't know if that was what she wanted to do. And actually in fact maybe this is going to answer but ostensibly what's the problem with just applying our our positive to that well if you learn he's not a real Russia he's just something you made no let's say let's say you you say he is a real Russia. So the problem is that this the the shame only works because he knows that he's your enemy right going and and he and and Holland did not know that Esther was was a Jew even right so like he was objectively antagonistic towards her but it's not like when she invites him to the party he's feeling shame. Why would he feel shame? It's the queen inviting him to the party right so maybe Moshe's answer answers this which is that she did not know that that uh she was going to kill him or that he would definitely die. So she wanted to create a sense of dependency. And at this point in the uh in the event when she first invited him she did not know how it would play out. So she's like preemptively setting up a situation where where when he does find out that this is her, he's gonna be paralyzed by this shame to to refrain from like acting against her or something like that. I mean this bothers me every year I've done this. So this is the closest I've gotten to right now thanks to Moshe this is the closest I've gotten to um understanding it which is that that she's setting uh herself up for having an advantageous future relationship with Haman and that's part of the calculus the the Gabar ends up concluding that she had all these things in mind. So it does not seem clear that she knew how things were going to play out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Maybe it's not only in terms of shame but actually just in terms of the nature of the relationship right the dependency.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah yeah yeah that's why I snuck in the word uh practically and psychologically dependent because uh it is reality there you know and and there is a phenomenon of like you know you owe me right that the that that's a natural thing and a person could deny it and resent it but it is it is a normal psychological dynamic. Okay let's do the Rabag which I again I so I've taught this project many times but I have not done the Mafarshim exhaustively in a while it's possible usually the Matsudis David gets his interpretation from the Rabag um uh often so let's see if that's where he gets it from Lotimna Mah oh I thought this is Machlun I say Machlun Vakileon and yeah Lotna Milachun ala vla achila do not refrain from being gracious to him by feeding him lefem vi'im hutsame hashkehumaim and if he is thirsty give him water to drinkas mood this is a good mida sonim ah interesting to um to give uh to benefit all people uh oh havim and sonim um vi'im yeah leva libucha and if you I think your libucha is if you're what do you think that how you translate that here but it's bad to you like you'd feel like yeah it might be bad feeling it might also I don't I don't know if you could use it as um I know you usually say Ian Ra for stinginess or holding back i don't know uh and and uh I don't know if like that could be like if you're if you're the opposite of of Khain you know of of Khonane ich tetivlo Tahas Ash so no no the Imira Libha ech tetivlo tahas asher asalakha raa if your heart pains you I think right uh that how can you benefit this guy after in in in payment of him uh doing evil to you ata im gamalcha bazer har naftacha me tuvamidos ooh so here he's referencing my favorite Rambom not my favorite Ram sorry sorry what what is sorry what's my uh yeah love talk of favorite Ram one of my favorite Ramams um if in truth uh sorry uh you should know in truth kiata imm gamalta baza uh gamalcha baza if you bestow good to him in this haroi lanafcha me to hamidos oh yeah tsadaka right so I I I I know I just want to read this um yeah um text Ram oops sorry especially commentary's Rama Mornavuhim uh it's gotta be somewhere here I think actually let me just see if I have it in the good no I don't um I got a whole factory in here as you can see um yeah I don't think this is the good translation but I'm not gonna find it right now um oh sorry sorry hold on uh hold on is this I always forget if this is 50 it's 53. Yeah yeah okay it's not 54 all right yeah yeah so this is in his definition of tsidaka um why is it tsidaka so if tsidaka is um matan masha magia l'ho mishiagialo giving what is due to anyone who it's due to or la se la home matamina matuim kfiha royalo or to give to any existing thing uh being what is roy for it um so again the havimina you would think here that uh giving someone what they need is what makes it saddaka but he says mahamashgun it'll be tsdaka for you when you return the mashgun to the poor person ki atta hole midos atovos sorry imata holakbdaka midosatovos when you follow good midos atta ose et tsek im nafchka ha hoge you're doing tsadaka to your rational soulin la es ha magia la you're doing to it what is due to it so i i think this is i mean rabag is obviously someone who does quote the rama but i think he's saying the same idea here is you're doing uh tsadaka to your soul by by enacting good midos he ne l'okiach nikmascha mimeno yeah so this matus is getting it from him behold you're you're getting revenge from him because you're pouring hot holes kiza inin kasha lo ki ilu atta hose gekhalim al rocho uhlfo me rovto al hatoshi kabo mima tahasa rahmalaha but shemishhalim lach tov takasatovashmalta also yeah same idea so mutosion is getting is getting this he's just saying that um he's just clarifying where the tzadaka uh what the the the shilum sakar is for the tzadaka you're doing to yourself yeah I don't understand the calls because you're causing him pain for the fact that this guy did bad to you and then you're giving him good uh yeah right yeah I think it's the same idea as Matzu Dovin that's where he got it from yeah okay good um I think let's stop here for today and then uh tomorrow we'll see other ones and the Derek Nister. I'm very I mean you can if you had to guess right now what the Derek Nister is going to be, what would you guess? Who's your sonaka? Yitsahara Yitsahara, right? So then the question is gonna be how and to what extent usually we don't say you should give Yitsahara good stuff. Right, you should give into it, right? So, what are the parameters of haqilahulachem, which I think is very easy to figure out? So that's what I'm I'll I'll just say, okay, right? Is that I think Lechem and Maim are Torah, right? But then the question is gonna be how does causing it pain serve you, right? Isn't this not saying give him delicacies? That would be the wrong message, right? Yeah. And and it's funny also, because Khazal do say you if the you know that you should starve the Itzahara. So how do you uh uh navigate that tension between the starving the it'sahara and then like, you know, uh feeding it? Yeah. Okay, good. And that's what I'm excited for tomorrow. All right, thanks. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Or it could be.