Mike Africa Jr. Version 2001 - Part 1

In this immersive, unedited episode, you’re sitting in the basement of MOVE headquarters in West Philly—24 years ago—listening as Michael Davis (known publicly as Mike Africa Jr., and within MOVE by the nickname “Puga,” which he no longer uses - talks freely while being interviewed by longtime MOVE "supporter" Peter Gordon, aka Dubside. At 23, Mike shares a version of MOVE’s history—and his own—that directly contradicts the narrative he tells today about 1985 as a public figure and the self-annointed new leader of MOVE.

This episode is part of a mini-season built around MOVE’s words—letters, recordings, and public statements—so their credibility can finally be fully examined, which is in the public interest. From Mike’s childhood outside the group to his return under Ramona Africa’s watch, this tape reveals fractured family ties, the making of MOVE’s next spokesperson, and the first signs that he was stepping toward the spotlight and seeking fame via the MOVE story. 

The producers of this podcast wish to stress that all individuals reference in this series are presumed innocent unless or until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law in the United States of America.

Transcript

This episode contains descriptions of violence. It is intended for mature audiences only. 

Alright, today is July 2nd, 2001, and the time is seven. It's eight 30. 8 31, exactly. And, uh, I'm at, um, king Sing in the basement in a, in the Seed of Wisdom studio. And this is Mike Africa on interview tip, talk into the Mike. Mike,

Ona MOVE.

Alright, how much time we got in this thing? Hours. 

We have an hour. Hour and 40 something minutes. Alright, cool.

Beth: This audio was given to me for the podcast in September, 2019 by a longtime move follower I have mentioned in previous episodes. He goes by the name of Dub side and he got into move while attending the murder trial of Wesley Cook, AKA Mia Abu Jamal in 1982. You'll recall that former MOVE members raised with a group's surname of Africa have said on this podcast that Mumia was and still is a move member. This audio is Dubside interviewing Mike Africa Jr. In keeping with journalistic standards so that anyone can fact check. The legal name of Dubside is Peter Gordon, and the legal name of Mike Africa Jr.
is Michael Davis. 

I am sharing the entire audio file unedited that was handed to me by Peter Gordon in September, 2019. It's important to share the whole thing because I think it qualifies to be in the interest of the public. To know what Michael Davis said back in 2001 and what he's saying now, because he's established himself as a public figure to be trusted as a credible source for journalists, elected officials, law enforcement, and Hollywood.
As you well know, I am now six years deep into researching move, using verified documentation, firsthand personal accounts and public reporting. So you could say, I have a PhD in MOVE that most other documentarians will never be able to match, either because of time and or because they simply are not interested in independently verifying the move story, especially if they're relying on access to move and fear that accuracy in reporting might jeopardize that access.
I'm gonna be jumping in to clarify names, provide footnotes, context and primary documentation as needed. I'm gonna go right back to the tape where we left off. 

Um, I thought you were gonna do this on the dat tape. Nah, I couldn't do it on that dat. We were using that tape. Alright, so what I'm wondering now is tell me where you were on May 13th, 1985.
Um, if you remember. I don't remember because I, I mean on May 13th, I mean, if I don't even remember where I was. What, you know, what was going on. You'd have been like, what, six years old then? Five. Five. Alright. So you have no recollection of that day? None. Okay. I didn't find out about it until years later.

Beth: Okay. We are one minute into this interview and I have something to point out that is a pretty big deal. Michael Davis answers Peter Gordon's question about May 13th. He says he has no recollection of May 13th, 1985. This completely contradicts what Michael Davis has been publicly saying in interviews, social media posts, and his own 2024 memoir about MOVE. In a nutshell, the story Mike has been telling is that he was outside playing when a neighborhood friend who he specifically names, runs up to him and says they bombed move and then points to the black smoke in the sky. So the question is, which is the truth? In 2001, Mike was 23 years old. Was he lying then or is he lying now? And then of course the biggest question is Why?.

But on that, on that day, where were you? Who were you staying with then? Laverne Lou? I was staying with Laverne on, uh, Reno Street 39th for re in 85 then? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um. 

Beth: Laverne is Laverne Leaphart Sims, Mike's maternal grandmother, and also the sister of Vincent Leaphart. And also she was a early and very devoted MOVE member until she wasn't 

the, uh,so let me see. When, when, uh, when did you start finding out that like, something significant might have happened on May 13th? Um, when did you suspect that? I saw, I saw, I saw, um, a news clipping. At that time we weren't allowed to go to school. I knew something was going on, but I didn't know what had happened, you know?
Right. I knew a lot of things was going on with like Laverne and, um, Louise and, you know, Fox and Gail and all of them, you know, arguing back and forth with like, um, people at Osage and I knew something was going on and I, and I really didn't know what was going on. Yeah. All I knew was something was wrong.

Beth: Louise is Louise Leaphart James, also a sister of Vincent Leapart AKA, John Africa. And like Laverne at one point was a very devoted MOVE member. She even let Vincent, who they all called Benny, move into her nice row home at 6 2 2 1 Osage after being acquitted on federal bomb and weapons charges in July, 1981.
Mike also mentions Fox and Gail Fox is Sharon Sims, who like Gail is the daughter of Laverne, sisters of Debbie and Chuck. All of them were move members. That is until Gail and Sharon left, which is what Mike is referring to when he says something was wrong. And this is before May 13th, 1985. Benny AKA, John Africa had commandeered Louise's house and she was kicked out after being physically attacked by her own son - Frank, on the orders of Benny slash Vincent slash John Africa. 

And, um, uh, we weren't allowed at, at one point they had sent us to school and then they, we wasn't going to school no more. They had stopped us from going to school. They had stopped us from talking to anybody. They had stopped us from playing with our neighborhood friends or whatever.
When was that? That was, um, must have been around the time of May 13th because Okay. We didn't hear anything until five years old. That was what, first grade you were in some first grade or something like that. Alright. But, but they had already started sending us to school. Like my cousin David was going.
My um, my cousin Diane was going Okay. Um, and they had started to send us, but they had stopped us and um, they had stopped us from playing with anybody on the street talking to anybody. Do you think they did that because of May 13th? I think they did, because they didn't want us to know what happened.
Okay. And furthermore, they didn't want us to know that they were involved. 

When Mike says they were involved, Mike means that Louise and Laverne had gone to Philadelphia Police and Mayor Wilson Goode before May 13th, 1985, telling them that their brother Vincent Leaphart was out of control and that if authorities did not intervene, that something very bad was gonna happen. There are documents that back this up, including a three page report from July 26th, 1984, in which Louise and Laverne had a meeting and told authorities that Tric Dotson was being abused inside of 6 2 2 1. Osage Frank James was very sick and Vincent was planning a violent confrontation with police for August 8th, 1984.

Okay. I found out later from a tape that Laverne has certain tapes that she specifically ordered us to stay away from. Yeah. She said stay away from those tapes. Video tape. She has certain videotapes, all right. Certain audio tapes, certain, um, papers that she had that she ordered us to stay away from.
Yeah. And um. One day she was gone. She had went somewhere. And me being a child, curious to know what was on those tapes, what was in this, you know, what was in these things that, that she just so desperately didn't want us to see. So I picked up a tape and I pops it in the VCR and it's Louise on the tape, screaming and hollering, you killed my family, you.
And I'm wondering, what the hell is this? So I'm looking at it and I see like our house I'm looking at, I'm like, our house is fucking on fire. So I'm like, what the fuck is this? And then like Fox comes in the room and I said, damn, because that lady that looked like our house and that lady looks just like Louise.
And because I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know if it was her or not. I, you know, it looked like, I'm like, damn Louise on tv, but what the fuck is her house doing on fire? So, um, Fox turned around and looked, shit. She said, that is Louise dummy. And I'm like. Man, she must be mad about something. So I, you know, I left it alone.
Um, Laverne came home and she was really, really angry. She was really mad because I was, you know, messing with these tapes. And um, then later on I saw other tapes where like they was having meetings with like people, um, I don't know who they were. I saw Wilson Goods facing there. Okay. Um, tapes where they were like, you know, big long tables where they was talking to people back and forth about things, what they were going do, whatever.
And um, those were the tapes that they told me never to touch. If I knew they what I know now, I'd have been all in them. You know what I mean? That must have been the commission hearing tapes. Some of 'em, um, might have been. I don't, yeah, I don't really, really remember what they were. People talking long tables, lots of tapes.
Beth: That is the move commission hearings that took place in October, 1985. Louise and Laverne actually appeared before the commission. You've probably seen that footage. 

Um, so I didn't, you know, I, but that the, when I started looking at the tapes and really trying to find out what was up, you know, with our house being on fire, that was, that was later I talked to other people and they had been saying stuff like, your house, you know, people killed and stuff like that.
I, I, I kind of had an idea, but I didn't really know. Well, so, but after May 13th, didn't you, you didn't see people that you'd been used to seeing, like, nah. Did, didn't that, didn't you start to wonder like, how come Oh yeah, we asked about that. I mean, we would, we would ask, you know, Laverne, we would ask Fox, you know, Gail, what, what, where's, where's Tamo?
How come we don't get to see them no more? And like, you don't need to see 'em, you know, that kind of vibe. I, we wondering why come they ain't, how come we ain't seeing them? How come they ain't coming to see us? You know, we, we used to, we used to go into the, uh, to get food together, you know what I mean?
Going shopping down ninth Street, you know what I mean? We used to, you know, seeing them together and waiting until them to come over their house, you know what I mean? And that all that just like all of a sudden stopped. Hmm. And, um, you know, after, after a while you start putting certain things together, you start forgetting certain things, so it just kind of, you know, fades away.
Um, but I do remember like, coming back to the organization, I, I remember like people, I remember after talking to people, um, conversations that Laverne would have with people at Osage h and, and I remember like Frank, Nick, Nick calling down at the house just constantly saying, why don't y'all cut this shit out and come back?
You know what I mean? Yeah. I remember hearing those things and I, I remember Laverne picking up the phone every time the phone ring, she just pick it up and drop it. Oh yeah. Phone would ring. I mean, this, the phone would ring for probably about three hours sometimes. Yeah. Back to back. And she would just pick it up, drop it, pick it up, drop it every time it rang for about three hours straight sometimes.
And I would be asking, who is that on the phone? And she would say, nobody, nobody. Don't worry about it. Nobody. And I was like, I ain't, well, I ain't gonna worry about it, you know? But, um, I, I really didn't know. What was, what was the deal on that? 

It did well, when you were younger, you used to go over to 6221.

Oh, yeah. We, yeah, we used to go over there all the time, you know. Okay. You know, spend days and weeks there. Yeah. I mean, you know, so after, well like, do you have any recollection of when the confrontation started? That was Christmas of 83. No. Okay. So, so actually with the times you were going over there, it must have been during that whole confrontation then right? after all through 84 then probably.
Okay. Because I mean, the last time I saw them was, um, the last time I saw any of the kids was in 1985. 

Okay. And that was only because Fox went down to ninth Street and got into, started shit with Ramon down there when they was, went shopping for food. Okay. Yeah. And the cops arrested Ramon and, and Butch.
And they was about to take the kids and Fox said she would take the kids. So they brought the kids to Reno Street and that's the last time I saw the kids. That's the last time I saw Delisha and um, Phil. I think Phil was there, um, that I think was there. That's the last time I saw any of them. The last time, 

Beth: Ramona Johnson and Larry Kareem Howard, who was known in MOVE as Butch Africa did get into a physical confrontation with Mike's Aunt Sharon.
But it wasn't in 1985. It was in 1984. It was March 6th to be specific. Ramona and Larry were arrested for disorderly conduct after refusing to disperse and continuing to fight with Sharon even after police had intervened to deescalate it. The children with Ramona and Larry that day were part of the group of children that had been taken by move from Richmond in 1980.
Against court orders that had removed them from MOVE due to neglect and abuse. I believe this is why Sharon took the children that day, so the police would not figure it out and she wouldn't be on the hook for the abduction warrant. So Mike last saw the children in Osage in March, 1984, 14 months before the fire.
Mike himself would've only been four and a half years old. 

PG: So were you ever in the house at, on Osage Avenue, like when it had the, all the, the fortification? 

MD: I don't even remember. You don't remember that? No idea. 

PG: But you've been in that house Oh yeah. At some point. 

MD: Oh yeah. Yeah. I would say, oh yeah. Okay.
Just go there all the time. So like you go out to Cobbs Creek with the kids and we would go out to Cobbs Creek swim, or we get not swim. We get in the water. Yeah. Um, yeah, we get in the water, you know, walking dogs, you know. Running around with the kids playing games. Yeah. You know? Yeah. We did all of that.

PG: So, so how was it that you were hanging with Louise Laverne and starting to go to school and all that? Even before May 13th? It wasn't before May 13th. Okay. It was after May 13th. It was after May 13th. No. Was it, I don't know, because I You didn't know exactly right. Happened. I don't know, but I I, it wasn't during the period when we were in move.
Yeah. Because May 13th happened, um, after we were out at the organization. You see what I'm saying? Okay. We, we, they took us out the organization before May 13th. Okay. Okay. I got, yeah. Okay. So at some point they said they took you, it was you and Whit then? Me, Whit, ducky, David, booby Hin, um, Dennis. Danny. Yeah.
It was a crew, a whole crew of us, the whole crew. So, so all those people. All, all of those, all, all, all of those were just kids. Yeah. That, that's what I mean. And then even like, like Malachi and Tramaine and them stayed. Yeah. Yeah. As well as all the, the people on this age, Malachi, Jermaine, rda, they all stayed.
Yeah. Teo, all of, yeah. Alright. So that, but that was like half of the kids then they took Yeah. I mean they, they wasn't, I mean, they wasn't out to just take a one or two of us who they felt like they were responsible for. They was trying to get, anybody could, I mean, they even took, at some point, they even took the other kids.
But they, they um, they ran into problems where they gave us up. Gave them up, yeah. Or was taken back from 'em. And at the, who was, uh, Jay doing at that time? Jay was with Beverly. I don't, I don't know where they were. I didn't really know Jay at that time. Alright. I didn't really know Jay or, I mean, I knew of them if you had shown me, you know, I knew who he was, but yeah.
We didn't, we weren't, um, close like the other kids. Alright. Huh. So now, when, back in those days, tell me about like the kind of stuff you'd eat for food. Strictly raw. All, look, let me tell you, if we found a cracker that was 20 days old sitting out Yeah. That was like unusual to us. Yeah. I mean, any, anything that, anything that was, was, um, raw, like sweet potatoes, peanuts, bananas, onions, um, garlic to, we, we very rarely ate tomatoes.
We rarely, we very rarely ate fruit. Yeah. Our diet was like strictly like sweet potatoes, peanuts, and vegetables. You know what I mean? That was, that was, it was strict. Yeah. I mean we, if we found a roasted peanut, it was like. Strange. Yeah. You know what I mean? It was like, you know, we just, because we didn't eat anything like that.
I mean, it tastes real different and it tastes like no substance. No. I mean, it was like weird, you know? But, um, that's all we ate. And, and would you be every day? Yeah, we did. You do like exercise and stuff? We did everything that adults did. Yeah. Pushups. Yeah. Running. We did, uh, we boxed. Okay. We, we did everything.
They did everything they did. We just followed along, along, you know what I mean? We, we even did it with 'em sometimes. Yeah. You know what I mean? They, they put up the, pick up the gloves and show us how to do things, how, show us how to hold our hands and box and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. We, um, we used to run, we used to box, we used to do pull-ups.
We used to do wheelbarrows, wheelbarrows. Two people. Yeah. I put my arms on the ground and somebody pick up my legs and we'd run around. We did that for hours at, you know what I mean? We would, we would do, um, um, gorilla walks, put your fists on the ground and put your back legs straight. So you just walk on your Oh yeah.
Um, we did multi hot, uh, what they call them. Um, um, bunny hops. We bounced around like a bunny and, you know, we did, um, um, frog leaps. Okay. This all, all of this is exercise, but at the same time, games that we played, because I mean, the way, the way the coordinator had it hooked up, no matter what we did, we, we exercise or worked to do it.
Just a quick footnote. The coordinator is John Africa. Vincent Lee part, I mean, I remember times where we would, um, we would want to go play or something. Like they would, you know, we'd play hide and go seek or something like that. The older kids would teach us how to play certain things like that, like David and Malachi or something.
And the whole time we played, we had to run to play. I mean, if we wanted to eat, we had to work to eat. I mean, that's how it was. That's what made us strong. That's what made us stand out from everybody else that we was around. Yeah. And um, that's how it was with, with, with, um, ex, uh, playing Man. You worked for everything.
We did everything. So, so now, how did all that change with the exercise, the food and everything when you, when Louise Laverne took y'all away? Oh, first of all, when we started going to school, we sat there six hours a day. Mm. That's six hours of work that we missed when we sitting at a desk. So was it holding our, holding our, oh my God.
Hard holding, holding yourself. You gotta raise your hand when you had to go to the bathroom. Man, we used to, you know, we, we free, you know, at, at headquarters or, you know, we running around, going to the bathroom whenever we want to, eating whenever we want to. We, we, we like confined to this small classroom, to this, you know, sit to this chair.
Do you know what I mean? We couldn't do all the, it, it felt like it's, it really felt like we were in prison for six hours a day. Wow. Six hours and then going home. Um, LA Verne and them didn't take us to the park. Yeah. Not, not a lot. I mean, it was a treat to go to the park when we were with them at the old stage.
It was regular. Um. When we were with Laverne, we didn't even eat. They, they stopped us from eating raw food quick. Oh yeah. I remember at a certain point, Mo had came over to the house and he brought us a 50 pound bag of peanuts. 

Beth: Mo is Alfonso Robbins, AKA Mo Africa, a move member since 1973. He's also Mike's current father-in-law. He was a fugitive with Vincent Lee part for three years until they were all arrested and he stood trial with Vincent for federal charges relating to explosives and weapons. Mo and Vincent were acquitted, but Mo was arrested in June, 1984 for assaulting a police officer that had pulled him over Mo bringing peanuts over to where Mike was living with his grandmother.
Could only have happened in 1984, not after that, because Mo went to prison for more than five years. We ate those peanuts. We, he bought 'em like it was, it had to be sometime in like the afternoon, maybe around like one or two, because we went to sleep around like six. When the sun went down, we went down.
That's how we was. We got up with the sun and we went down with the sun and we ate those peanuts so much that we couldn't eat nothing else because we would starve for the peanuts that we had been denied since we had been out the organization. And um, the only thing that they would buy for us now and then was fruit apples, maybe some orange juice.
I mean, that's the shit that anybody do. You can get that in school, you know what I mean? But the, the diet that we were used to eating, nah, they cut that out. They cut it out. They, I mean, I thought they was cutting it out because raw food was more expensive back then because they would talk, always talk about money problems.
I, I see now that they cut it out because they just didn't want nothing to do with John Africa. Because in fact, raw food is cheaper than cook food. It's cheaper. It's a lot cheaper because with cook food, you gotta cook, which means you gotta burn gas, which means you gotta buy the shit raw food. You buy a case of, you buy a case of sweet potatoes for what?
Eight, $9. Mm. Back then $5, $4. Yeah. And that's enough to feed the whole, the whole family, the whole house. Yeah. For a week. Whereas they was cooking us all kind of cooked food and giving us cereal, cereals $4 a box now. Yeah. You know what I mean? They, you know that that'll feed four or five kids. We talking about a house full of like, you know, damn near 10 people.
You know what I saying? This is, this is on Reno Street. Yeah. So Louise Laverne, were both there. No, Louise wasn't there. She never lived with us. Just Laverne was there. Just Laverne. Laverne took care of us. Well, Laverne was there watching us. Fox was there watching us. Okay. Lorraine was there for a little while.
Um, she left after, uh, after Dennis, I think Dennis had came home from prison. Dennis is, Dennis Sims the youngest child of Laverne and the youngest move member to be recruited by his uncle Benny. A K Vincent Lee part. Back in the beginning days of move, Dennis was just 12 years old when he went to go stay at MOVE headquarters in Peloton Village.
Dennis is currently serving a 50 year sentence at a New York state prison for attempted armed robbery move. Never speaks of him. I have communicated with Dennis and from what I hear, move is not happy about that. Oh, okay. Yeah. And she, she stayed there with us for a while. Danny was born and then she left.
How many she moved with, with her mother. How many, how many floor is that? Is it two story? Three story? Two story. Two story. Bathroom. Bathroom. Is the bathroom one bathroom. One bathroom. One bathroom. So how many kids in this house then? In the house that we lived in? Yeah. Me ing Ducky Booby David with Dennis.
Danny. Nice. It's eight kids. Yeah. And the adults were Gail, Fox, Laverne, and Lorraine. Four, that's 12 people all together. So how many, how many bedrooms in this house? Three. How do you split that up? I have no idea. I think they must have put Did you have designated place to sleep or just kind like, no, we slept whatever.
We slept wherever we want. That was, yeah. That was something that they, that was one of the, you know, things that they did. We, you know, we could sleep wherever we want. Pretty much, they, they didn't make us sleep in any particular room. Yeah. Except Fox. Fox didn't let us sleep in her room. Yeah. She, she, she went in her room and she took her four kids with her.
Yeah. And if they wanted to sleep somewhere else, fine. But nobody else could sleep in there with, with her, we didn't feel comfortable sleeping with her 'cause she was mean. Yeah. We ain't like no mean people. I mean, when we went to school and we saw, saw, saw how the mean them teachers were, man, they caught, they caught hell with us.
'cause we ain't like no mean people. And we straight up tell you, we don't like you. That's how John Africa taught us to be. That's how we were raised. Like, say what you feel and if you don't feel it, don't say it. Yeah. And that's how we were, we would get in in trouble. I mean, look, lemme tell you, when I first started going to school, I was in the corner all the time.
Yeah. But they couldn't keep me in the corner. Yeah. I mean, they be like, Michael, get in the corner. I'm like, no, for what? I ain't do nothing wrong. And that's just how it was. I mean, look, you know, John Africa put a put fight in us and they couldn't kill it by telling us to get in the corner or by hitting us and shit.
They hit us. We hit the back. So would you be like, brought to the principal's office or Many times. Yeah. And they told, you know, they, they, they must have knew that I had been in move because they, the principal would always say like, you have to understand the situation. Yeah. And they would send me back.
They would, they would tell the teacher, Ms. Liebowitz, you have to understand his situation. They send me back. It was, I never the principal that Mr. James, he, he was like, he was like a person who would've seen move as depriving the kids of what they should have had. What we should have had. And he was like trying to understand that we were, we were, and what school is this?
Belmont. Belmont Elementary School. Yeah. Okay. And he, he was like, like the kind of person that would be like, well, you have to understand they've been deprived for a certain amount of time, so you have to understand them. Shit like that. Hmm. He was a, he was a fucking jerk. Yeah. Then, um, Ms. Lewa was, she was just like, look, anybody can learn.
I'm gonna do this. She was a, a middle-aged chairman or something. Yeah. But I was like, look, you have your rules. I have mine. I ain't going change just 'cause you think I should? Yeah. I mean, look, you tell me I can't go to the bathroom. What you want me to do? Hold myself to my bladder burst? I mean, I didn't say that in words 'cause I couldn't, but that's how I felt.
And when she would say, raise your hand when you gotta go to the bathroom. I raised my hand and she say, what is it, Michael? I'm like, well, I have to go to the bathroom. Can I go to the bathroom? No. I'm like, what? I'm like, first of all, I'm, I'm, I'm compromising by just asking can I go? Secondly, you gonna tell me no when I ask.
You must be out your mind. Most of the time I just get up and walk out. Yeah. And they got used to it after a while just be like, oh that's Michael. And other kids would try it and then they had to stop me from doing it. Yeah. You know, the first couple years of school was rough 'cause I, I couldn't deal with it.
Teachers reported suspected neglect and they reported truancy from Mike's older sister wit in January of 1985. Mike wasn't old enough to be in school at that point. There's a January, 1985 report about this and wit has told me about her teacher suspecting that she had a very bad ear infection and was falling asleep in school and appeared to not be eating enough and did not have a school lunch.
And it resulted in an investigation from social services that resulted in a family court hearing at some point. Yeah. Would they give you, you know, like homework and books and stuff like that? How did you feel about that? See the thing about school with, with the, um, academia, the, the, the learning, I rejected it at first, but after a while of training and being young anyway, you start adapting to it.
And that's how I felt like I'ma had to do this. 'cause really, I ain't had no other way to, I ain't had no other way out. I mean, it wasn't like I could just get up and just say, fuck y'all, I'm going back to move. I wasn't even old enough to do that. Yeah. Or you know, so, you know, I, I just started, um, telling myself that and like, I, I got help from my mom.
'cause she would always tell me, I know you in a bad position and I wish I could be out there with you. This, this, this right here, this stuff with my mom, this, this shit stay with me till this day. Because it was like, she knew all the stuff that I was going to going through and it bothered her because she couldn't do nothing about it.
And that is what bothered me because it's like. Damn. You know what I mean? I'm, I'm, I'm waiting for a phone call every week, mom. I can't, you know, what am I supposed to do? And she like, do what you can do. That's, that's basically how she was saying it. Just listen to 'em. Just, you know, just trying to make it easier on me.
So, so after a while I just said, all right, well I'm gonna just listen to what they say and I'm gonna just keep trouble down until I get old enough. We used to tell each other this all the time. When I get old enough, I'm outta here. Yeah. We, man, we told each other that many times. All of your Oh yeah. We would have, listen, lemme tell you, the kid I told you, we did everything that adults did.
We had meetings with each other. Yeah. Telling each other. When we get old enough, we outta here. We getting the fuck outta here. Straight up. Me with David Ducky, Dennis, Danny, all of us sit there, have our meetings and tell each other what we going to do. Mm. Myy would say, when I get older, I'm gonna get me a house.
I'm gonna get me a husband, and I'm outta here. Um, not many of us followed that pattern. And I think the reason why us we didn't is because the parents, our parents, we did everything our parents did, and they didn't. Their, like Maing and David and all of them. Maing had a lot of fight in her, but her, her mother didn't do it and her father didn't stay.
Yeah. You know what I mean? Mahe was when she was six months, eight months old, her mother's father who Fox was ING's mother. Okay. And, uh, Frank was her father, not Frank Africa. This other guy named Frank from Virginia. Frank is Frank Cox, and he went to Richmond Police in late 1979 to report that his infant daughter and the other 13 children in the care of move were malnourished, neglected, and not in school.
Frank coordinated with law enforcement on the midnight raid of January 15th, 1980 on the RO home, rented by move. Frank was the snitch on his own girlfriend Sharon, because he was so concerned about his own child and the other children. Okay. But Maing was, she had fighting her when she was eight months old.
Man, lemme tell you, Fox was to used to do shit that Maing knew was wrong. Mai would hold her breath until she turned blue, until Fox stopped doing it. Fox killed all of that. Yeah. Killed it. Now hin do everything she do. Yeah. And me and Whitt, we were the only ones. We were the, everybody did what our parents did.
Me and Whit did what our parents did, which is why we back and moved Everybody else followed their parents. And that's why Dennis is damn near in jail with his father. Yeah. Um, David is just like his mother trying to get as much money as he possibly can or his father the same way. I mean, that's how it is, that's how it's coordinated to, to follow your parents, to follow your, your influence.
And that's how we did. But, um, unfortunately, they had, they had a bad influence. Yeah. So do you remember like, talking with your parents or going to see your parents before, before Louise, before Laverne took you away from move?
Before? No, I, my dad told me a story about one time where we went up there to visit and I vaguely remember that. Yeah, that was it. We didn't go see them like that though. Okay. Because it was too much on them. Yeah, because you know, seeing the, you know, you got, you know, you get four hours with your kids and then you don't see 'em again.
It was too much on them, number one. So that's, so, so your mom was at Muncie and your dad was? Huntington. Huntington. Okay.
And, um, so after Laverne took y'all away, did, do you remember like visits then? Or you said like phone calls We got, yeah, we got visits after. After then. Yeah. We got visits. If my dad, my dad would get on the phone and he would scream and holler, bring my kids up here. You know what I mean? Yeah. I wanna see, you know, my dad is real hype.
They used to call him hype Mike when he was a kid. Yeah. He, he was, he was so hyped. He would run in circles for like two hours straight. Just, yeah. Just 'cause he had the energy to, so Laverne would go with y'all? Yeah. She'd go with us. Okay. Um, she would take us up there most of the time. Sometimes I get, um, my dad would get like my grandmother, my other grandmother to take us to see my, my dad, my, we went to see my dad probably about average four times a year.
Okay. I think something like that. I think something like that. And my mom, maybe two. They always took me to see my dad more. I don't know why, but they always did. I have no, I don't really know why, but they always did. Now. When you went to see your mom at Muncie, like who else would they call out at the same time?
Nobody. Just your mom. Yep. Just her fucked up, ain't it? Yeah. Damn. Nope. Nobody else. Just her, because back then what Bert would've been there too, and Bert, RIA, Mona, um, Janine, Janet, Merle, all of them. It was eight women at that time. Yeah. Consella, Consella. Eight of them. Yeah. And they just called one. I think it worked out for the best though.
Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I don't know what would've happened to him if they, I mean, they, they would've got fucked up. I mean, this was at, right after May 13th, and everybody knew that they were involved. They, you know, my mom, she was up there and me and Whit was staring her in the face. So I think that put a, a big D damper on how she really, how she acted out.
How she felt. Yeah. Towards them. But. So, so your, your mom and your dad didn't say anything about Major 13th to you? No. I guess they assumed Laverne and them would tell us. Yeah. I guess they didn't say nothing to us. Yeah. And I never, I never asked, I never could. I, they didn't say nothing. I, I remember. Yeah.
They don't, they don't talk about it that much now. Yeah. I mean, even though I know they, they don't talk about it that much. It ain't, yeah. So talk about, they talk about the people all the time. Yeah. They just don't talk about what happened. Um, so when did you, you know, fully conclude or, or come to a pretty basic understanding of what happened on May 13th when Ramona came to get me in 1992 To bring me back.
Round move. Yeah. Alright. And so when, what, what precipitated that, that was when you and Whit went officially went back to organization. Yep. What year was that? 92 9 2. Okay. 92. We start coming back around and. 93. We were officially back May, 1992. Mike would've been 13. His sister Witt would've been 15.
Ramona coming to get them and bringing them back to move would've been her activity given to her by Leader Alberta, who had been released from prison four years earlier in 1988, on the same day, May 13th. I remember that time over Mos house when you came in and it was, yeah, I was looking at you bark at you.
I was looking at you. Kind of strange. I was like, this guy got some long ass hair Dub side. Peter Gordon at this time in 1992 that Mike is referencing, had long dreadlocks and had been deeply involved with Move for 10 years. So he knew John Gilbride for sure. I'll bring that back up again in a future episode.
I said aj at that time I knew Jay. Yeah, I like aj. Who, who? That he said his name is Dove Side. He gonna fix the fe, the heat of it or the the, um. I think you were fixing the, the, the, um, wood stove was some vent in the back, something right? Right. One. Yeah. He said his name is Dove side. He do all kinds of stuff with music equipment and stuff.
He got a guitar that he hooked the drum machine to and all of this. So I'm like, all right. So, so when you came back, it was to Mo's house at 56th Street was where you stayed? Yep. Okay.
And well, you're saying that that wasn't just like a one day thing that was Well, when I came back, yeah. There was some sort of period where you were, well, when I first came, I was just like, um, it was like, I just want, my mom had kept telling me to check it out, you know, go over 56th Street. But, but I mean, before that, like Laverne wouldn't let you go over there or No, no.
Okay. If I, if, if I had seen people on the street, she wouldn't have said nothing. Um,
if. I told her that I wanted to go over there because of, um, my mom and my dad. She would've backed off a little bit. Yeah. But one time I do remember asking her, can I go over there? And she said, why you wanna go over there? Yeah. Like, annoyed, like, why you wanna go over there? Like, what you gonna leave me?
And all of this shit? And I'm like, yeah. So, so like, what did, did you and whi like, plan it out? Like, now we're gonna leave. We're gonna, we're out. We had the plan was already in our head. It was already, it was, it had been there since we was like, you know, taken out. Yeah. And, um, we was waiting for other people to come with us.
My cousin Dennis. Yeah. Dennis' son. He came with, he the first time he was with me. Oh yeah. Yeah. He was with me. And we was like, look, you know, we look, we had this plan since he was five fucking years old, man, we, you know, we gotta do this. And he was like, yeah, come on. Let's do it. Let's do it. So he had, you know, me and him had start, you know, he, we start hustling, we start making a little bit of money, start selling drugs, start stealing some cars, start, you know, joy riding.
Yeah. Having, as we saw as a little bit of fun. And, uh, he came over there with me and then we, you know, we stayed for a couple days, or no, we stayed for the day. And then we went back and he said he was gonna come back and we said, yeah, let's go back. So we went back and now was the next time he just didn't come with me.
And it just happened that, well, you went over there and stayed for a day. Did, was Laverne uptight about that or what was she No, she, her, her, what she used to say was, he'll be back. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, move's work is hard. It is. It's hard work. Yeah. And she was too weak to do it, so she just assumed that I couldn't do it either.
Really important context here. Laverne and Louise have been fighting for the control of move since right after May 13th, 1985. The reason. The civil lawsuits. Alberta had become the leader of move and the trustee for the civil rights wrongful death lawsuit against Philadelphia for the five children who died, that was settled for $2.5 million in the summer of 1990.
All of the parents of those children had given power of attorney to Alberta. Louise and Laverne did not get a payout from the city until 1995. $500,000 for Vincent Lee part went to his siblings, not his legal wife. That's another thing. And $500,000 went to Louise for Frank James solely to Louise. Hmm.
And she, she used to say that he'll be back. You know, he, he's been going for a month now. Oh, he'll be back. I got faith in that. He'll be back. It's been eight years, but she's still waiting. Yeah. I guess she's still sitting by the clock. Yeah. But, uh, I haven't been back and don't have any intentions on going back.
I'd rather die before I go back. Yeah. Yeah, that's that shit out there. Woo. So, so tell me about how you, how you got into like the selling drugs to make money and stuff. What was up with that in 2002? Peter Gordon Dub side, he's in his forties. He's not married, no children. He's from a Christian, upper middle class family, not from Philadelphia.
His whole family went to college. So did he. Man, I thought we was having some fun. Yeah. See what happened was my uncle Fannie, this guy was a big time drug dealer. This man would pull out a thousand dollars bill in 1978. Oh yeah. Serious. And he, this is Alfonso Lee part, you remember? Yeah. Okay. We called Himi.
Okay. Uncle Fannie. Uncle Fannie is Vincent Lee. Part's brother. Louise and Laverne's brother and, um, we, we, we was crazy about Fannie man. Look, let me tell you. He would come over the house and we would be jumping all over him and hugging him and playing with him. And he did everything, he did everything with us that we wanted a grown person to do because we had missed that.
He was the, he, he, he did it with us. You know what I mean? We had missed that at, because we didn't have, um, rad Nick and, you know, the coordinator and all of them. Yeah. So we, we didn't have that anymore. Laverne wasn't about to play with us wrestling and shit like that. Yeah. And we didn't have any other ma male adult around.
Dennis was in and outta jail, you know, he would spend five years here. We, we didn't even know him. Yeah. So we didn't have anybody else that was, you know, an adult. So we played with Fannie and he would come around like maybe once every year or some shit like that. But when he came around, we loved it. You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm. And, um, he, he was like. He, he was a big drug dealer. He got Dennis into it. Oh yeah. And Dennis, this is what I hear. I don't, I didn't see it happen. Yeah. But this is what I hear. He got Dennis into drugs and Dennis got David into it selling. Okay. And using, and um, David got beat talking about crack or pot or what they was selling.
I'm sure they were selling crack. Yeah. I'm sure Dennis was using crack. Oh yeah. I'm sure. Was using younger. Dennis. No. Big dentist. Older dentist. Older dentist. The one that said that he wanted to leave, move 'cause he didn't wanna go to jail. Yeah. Now he spent 30 of his 45 years on the earth in jail. Damn.
But um, yeah, he, he, um, yeah, he was using crack. Okay. And cocaine and weed and whatever else. And he got David into selling. I don't, David said he never used anything and I don't know if he did or he didn't. I don't know. But, um, David definitely got me into selling and we was on the corner. So this, I mean, it's like, you know, you're hanging out's like, Hey, we can make some money here, do this.
He's like, yeah, we need to. Yeah. He was like, like, look, lemme tell you, this is how it happened. David was, David was in school. David came home from school one day and he had a bag. I said, Dave, what's that? And he said, this is my hustle. I said, this is your hustle. He said, yeah. He said, you need to start hustling.
And I said, what we do? He said, you get us to, to, to the crack it to the piper. We called him, give us to the piper, and they give you money. I said, simple as that. Simple as that. I said, all right, let's go. So I said, um, I can make some money. He said, yeah. He said, if you sell one, he said, you'll be working for me.
So if you sell one, um, you'll get a dollar. And I get five, I get four. So I said that, so I gotta sell like 30 of these. You get $30. He said, yeah. He said, but they sell quick and some people might buy 20 from you at a time. So I'm like, well, what's these long ones for? The long ones cost $20. So I'm like, all right, so if you sell 20 now, I can count.
If you sell 20, I can get five or four. Right? And he said, yeah, right. I said, cool. So we start, we went, we went out. Is it around that neighborhood there? Then we went out on, um, 30, I think it was 39th and Falso. And then we went to 39th and Fairmount. Mm-hmm. And we were standing there on the corner selling drugs.
We went, he said, look, if the cops come, just holler. I don't care how, what kind it is. Holler, don't holler my name. Just holler. I said, what kind of holler? He said, you know, anything, ah, you know, it don't matter. Just holler and run. I said, cool. So we, he gave me some empty caps. He said, look, if the cops come and try to take these, just tell 'em that you're a Muslim and these are perfume caps.
So I said, all right, so I'm holding these perfume caps in my hand and they all empty. Later on, he takes them back to the house and he tells me, fill these up. So I fills them up and he says, some of these are kind of tough to go on, so you have to put 'em in your mouth and bite 'em. I said, but what if the drugs spill in my mouth?
And he said, it's just gonna be a little tingly, but you can't get hooked on it. I said, I ain't putting that shit in my mouth. And he said, look man, just do that shit. You know he was a bully. Just do that shit. I'm like, whatever. I ain't putting this shit in my mouth. So he put it in his mouth and it spilled in his mouth and he like, damn, he made his tongue numb.
Yeah. So I was like, that's why I ain't putting that shit in my mouth. So he goes in the bathroom, he running around, washing it off, washing it out his mouth and shit. And I'm just standing there doing it with my hand. If I can't get it with my hand, I ain't doing it. So we go out, we sell all of those. Then we found out that somebody had shorted us for a certain amount of money.
We fucked them up pretty bad. We stripped all the, wait, wait, wait. Somebody who just bought drugs, somebody bought, bought some drugs off us, us. They got a bunch of That didn't give you? Yeah, they shorted us because I was only like 11. 12, some shit like that. And they shorted us and they got away from me.
Yeah. So David was hollering and screaming at me about, you know, letting this guy get away. So we found a guy and David told me to point him out to me. I pointed him out to me. Dave took, Dave, took me home. I'm glad he did. 'cause what they did to this guy later, unfucking, unbelievable. They took all his clothes off and soaked him in gasoline.
Then they beat him with an extension cord and they told him they lit a match and they told him if he ever do that again, the match is going to hit him. Yeah. Then they dropped the match on the floor and, uh, he didn't get burned up anything. But the, the diseases that he got from the, from the, um, gasoline leaking into his bloodstream Oh yeah.
Was probably worse. Damn. Later on I saw that guy, he was, ah, man, it's fucked up. Fucked up. I mean, it, it was always strange and fucked up to me. Fucked to to see. People holding down the job clean, you know, running around, doing their thing, taking care of their kids, dropping money off on people every now and then, uh, on their kids, you know what I mean?
Making sure their kids is taken care of. 'cause they don't live with 'em no more or whatever. Yeah. The next month, seeing with their teeth fucking brown, yellow, rotten, you know. No job, no money, no clothes. Their kids is calling them all kind of names and shit. It's like two or three months later, all of this shit just go, they skinny looking for a place to fucking eat, you know, digging outta trash cans.
Trying to bump money off a 12-year-old. I mean, it's, it's sad. That shit is sad. Yeah. So, you know, walking up to me scratching the arm, talking about come on man. Gimme a free one. Gimme a free one, man. Look, lemme tell you, you know, we would, we would, it was a guy named Don who was on that shit. He, it was on crack.
We, I, I sold him crack several times. He would get me to steal a car for him and just tell me to keep the car and give him some crack. I mean, that's this guy, he, he was on that shit so bad, man. It was, it was horrible. We, uh, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm 12, maybe 13 years old at this time. It's like I'm getting deep into it, learning how to, learning how to jack a car with a screwdriver, open the door, start the motherfucker up and drive away with it.
Yeah. You know what I mean? Without hitting nothing. Yeah. So, you know, it's, it is rough, you know, I mean, around that neighborhood is rough and we, we, we ran around in that time. We still, you know, we, we still played. I played football, I played basketball, I still went to school. All of this, all in that, you know, short period of time.
Hmm. Coming, coming to find out that people want you dead when you're only 13 years old is a real, um, encouraging example to, to leave that shit alone. Yeah. So how would you, how would you get that, get that message feeling? How would you, how would you feel? No. How, how would you at first come to understand that?
Why would that somebody wanted me fucking dead? Yeah. Because it would be like time. I mean, I didn't, to me, I didn't really think that this was serious. Like, come on, you know, this is the kind of shit you see on movies. Little kids running around hustling. This shit ain't really me. This ain't happening to me.
Don't nobody really want me. Damn. I'm fucking 12 years old. Yeah. Get the fuck it. Don't, you know? But it was probably more serious than I took it. Yeah. I mean, people would say, they gonna fuck you up, Mike. You better get outta that shit. And they'd be like, I'd be like, man, please. My cousin, I got my ba, my boys got my Who?
Who would tell you that? Like, you know, other, other, other people that was hustling with me. Oh yeah. Tyrone. They were older than you were My age. My age. Maybe some of 'em was a little older. Why did they tell you that? If they were doing it, they wasn't the ones that be doing it. Oh, it would be like they saw what you were doing?
No, it would be like, like Ty would come up to me and be like, look, Mike. So and so he want you, man. He said you did this. He said you put something in his Jones and he gonna fuck you up. He said he gonna get you. So watch it back. Shit like that. Yeah. Like, you know, look, Don said that you put bacon soda in his cap, in his caps.
He said he coming after you man. So watch it back. And I be like, man, please. Yeah. Strung out crack head. Piper mother finger ain't go do shit. That's how, that's my attitude. Right. I didn't take it serious. I didn't think that it would really happen. So did did anything really happen? Nah. Never to me unfor.
Fortunately nothing ever happened to me. Yeah. We got in, we got in, um, we got stopped. The worst thing that happened to me was getting stopped by the cops and taking like ho being held like for a long time in the prison and not in the jail and not knowing what was gonna happen. Yeah. That was the worst. I coulda got killed easily.
'cause man, look. Was that, were you actually arrested or they just took you down? They just took me down. Alright. They didn't. And that was you were out selling? Yeah. Okay. No, we, that time we got caught still in the car. Oh, okay. We, we, we stole, we grabbed the car and we drove it around for a while. Cops pull up in the back behind us, and then they pull up in front of us.
They stopped the car. They, they got us out. They handcuffed me and my cousin together, and they said, get in the, get in the, get in the paddy wagon. Yeah. And we was like, uh, all right. We got in and they, they drove us around for a minute. Then they took us to the police station. 30, 39th district, I think. And they told us that, um, that um, if I was like, I must have been about 12 or 13, they told David if he cooperate with us, they'll just let this shit go and just, you know, they won't even think about it no more.
Yeah. Because there wasn't no serious charge or nothing like that. You mean the 16th district on 39th Street? On the 30, right, right. That's, I'm sorry. Yeah. 30, right on 39th Street. Yeah. Well they said, or is it the 19th district or whatever is it? I think it's the 16th. 16th, yeah, 16th. But they told me, they said, look, they said, David, we know you got connections to these big drug dealers around here.
We want you to tell us who they are and where they are. And said, Hey Dave, you better not say nothing man. He said, what? I'm a snitch 'cause I ain't no bitch. And I said, no, no, no. That's not how you say it. It's, I ain't going to snitch 'cause I ain't no bitch. He said, no, no, no, I'm snitch 'cause I ain't no bitch.
I said, Dave, don't snitch on the boy. They gonna fuck you up, man. He is like, nah man, look, I'm getting out of this shit. So I was like, all right. So he, he, yeah, I know who that guy is. Told everything. He told everything. Yeah. And I'm like, you bitch, I'm looking at this boy like you was a bitch. You was a fucking bitch.
And. Yeah. He told, he said, yeah, I know that guy. He live, he live right down the street from me. Yeah. You can catch him on this day and this and that. A month later, they arrested David again. The same cops. Yeah. I'm like, damn, Dave. See what happened. That ain't your friend. I ain't, I couldn't say this in words, but I knew Yeah.
That he shouldn't have did that. Plus in the, in the ghetto. Look, let me tell you, you snitch on somebody. You going down. Yeah. If they catch you, you going to get fucked up. Yeah. That's just something you don't do, you know? Yeah. You know, I, my Dennis, David's, David's uncle, he got motherfuckers on death row, but shit they ain't even do.
Yeah. You know what I mean? People want him, they want him, they said they going to, if they catch him, they killing him. Yeah. You know, you got lifers in the prison who ain't got nothing to lose anyway. Yeah. I mean, what, what's another loss? What's another dead body to a guard or a Wharton? They don't care if they, if this man get killed.
Yeah. So, hey, you know, so I, you know, I'm just sitting back like, all right, well if that's what you want to do, just don't put my name in it. So, so did you decide at some point like you didn't wanna sell drugs anymore? No, I was making money. Yeah. Like how much money? Well to me 50 bucks was a lot. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, I could go to the store.
I didn't think about cars getting cars, like buying, you know, you see on the radio or, or hear on the radio and see on TV about the cars and stuff and how many, how much cars people got and how much jewelry they got and stuff like that. That's not what I was thinking of. 'cause Laverne didn't buy no food.
I'm thinking about that. I'm like, Hey look. Yeah. I'm like, Hey look, wait, $50 could buy me How many cheese steaks? If a cheesecake cost $5, I can get 25 cheese. Or not 25. Wait, hold up. I'm adding this shit up. So I'm like, you know, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, yeah. And I'm like, look, I can get some cheese steaks, I can get some fries.
$50 that's in a week or in a day. Oh no, I make that in 20 minutes. $50. Easy. Okay. Look, we was like, I mean, I could steal a car in 20 minutes and sell that shit to somebody. 400. A hundred dollars. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's nothing, I mean, they'd be stealing cars and selling them for, you know, thousands, but to me, a hundred dollars was so much money I couldn't see past stealing it to get this food.
You know, that's, I I I think that had to be the move law in me because I didn't think past what I needed. Yeah. Or anything that I wanted, I didn't even think about like, buying new sneakers. I used to walk around with bubbles on, people used to think I was just poor. Yeah. And I was, but I had money to buy some new sneakers if I wanted to.
I just didn't, I mean, I didn't, you know, I didn't really think about it like that. Alright. Um, and I didn't decide to get out of it. I mean, I just, when I came back to move and started hearing the information, it was just something that I, for the, the drugs was just something I forgot about. Oh yeah. And I just, after hearing the move law, it was just something, the drugs I just forgot about and I didn't even.
Think, think about like, damn, I, I ain't done this in a while. In fact, the last time I thought about it was about 20 minutes ago. Yeah. And that's 'cause we having this conversation, I, you know, I, the, the detail shit about how we beat that guy up and all of this, or how they beat that guy up. It, I don't even think about that shit no more.
It's a distant memory. It seemed like it's another lifetime. Yeah. So when, when you were in an organization, like you say you, well, you came back for a day and then she saw you come back for a day. Then the next time I came back for like two days, maybe they let me spend a week. And then after a while it was just like a month, then five months, then seven months, and then a year and then, and then eight years.
So, yeah. So were you making money a different way or like what would the, or you didn't feel like you needed money like you did when you were with Laverne? Like, no, at that point when we were, when we were like, when we came back. I'm so happy to be eating raw food again. And, and Mo bought raw food every week.
Yeah. So I don't, there's no need to, to get a bunch of money to buy anything. Yeah. What was the point? Yeah. So sometimes I would want, I mean, many times I wanted cook food. We had that too, though. Then, uh, Mo had hooked up like, um, raw. He had Raw Day and he had D-Day. You could eat one cooked meal on Distortion Day.
And, and we did, and every other day we ate raw food and it, and it never thought about it. So, so that you'd have been, what, like 14, something like that? 10 years old, 13, 14, something like that? Yeah, because I, yeah. Something like that. The first time I came back around, I must have been about 11 or about 12 or 13 the first time back.
Yeah. And that, and I hadn't came back for a while and then my mom kept encouraging me, you know, go do that again. Yeah. Then you like it. Yeah, I liked it. Or what about. Going back, well I got school. You are like, well don't worry about that. Just go back. And after a while I was just outta school. You know, I ain't got no worries.
Mike's mom, Debbie and his dad, Mike, are in prison. Remember for third degree murder of Officer James ramp August 8th, 1978. And their cellmates are fellow move members also in prison for that crime. So even if they wanted to defect to leave, move, it would be tough if not impossible. Alberta the leader referred to as the coordinator's wife was calling all the shots in prison, outside of prison with adults and with children at 14 or 15.
What? What grade is that? That's like you 15 is 11th grade. The last time. The last time you were in school, what grade were you in? Seventh. Seventh grade. But I was older than I was supposed to be in seventh grade. Yeah. Alright. And then when you worked with Mo, you just didn't go to school at all or what happened there?
Nope. When I was with Mo, we didn't go to school. He, they didn't stop me from going to school. Yeah. I never liked the shit anyway, so I, good reason for me, not a good excuse, you know? Right. Um, and plus I was learning other things. I mean, I had already knew how to read and write. I, I, I was learning other things that were more important, how to value life rather than fuck it up.
Yeah. You know what I mean? And plus Moe was teaching me like, you know, crafty things, Robins Enterprise teaching me how to build things and work with my hands and, you know, fix things and all of that kind of stuff. So that was cool. Did you, did you go back out in the park like you used to? Oh yeah. The first day we came back, we went to the park.
Yeah. That, that man, look, let me tell you that was, that right There was, um, very nostalgic. It was like. Damn. We going to the park, we gonna eat water. None at the park. We gonna run around with the rest of the kids. We gonna find a bike and fix it. You know what I mean? We, we look, we went out to the park and we got in the water.
It was like, man, we, we back it. That's how I felt. Me and Dennis was. We was looking at each other and happy and laughing. We was like, we back. And, and that ever since then, that's how it's been. Like, man, I'm just so happy. Didn't stay back. He didn't stay back 'cause his parents didn't stay. Yeah. You know what I mean?
He had to have some kind of influence from his parents and his parents who just wouldn wouldn't do it. Yeah. But mine unfortunately did. Um,
so after that, like there wasn't any particular point when you realized exactly what happened on sed, you just sort of came to a realization like, yeah, I think here's what happened and, and all that, right? Mm-hmm. Basically. Alright. Um. I mean, I would hear like Ramona would take me with her just about everywhere she went on speaking engagements.
Yeah. 'cause it was like, it was like, at that point it was like a real good example for people to see. Yeah. That just because you are in the system, yeah. Don't mean that you either can't be in move or shouldn't work. And I was the example because I had been in the system and back and moved. So yeah, it was like a real good example.
And people, you know, Mona would always tell people that I was born in jail and I'm a young, young, you know, young man and you know, and all of this stuff. So it was like a real good example. So she took me pretty much everywhere she went. Yeah. And that's just how, that's how it was right there. So, alright.
Hearing her talk about things and hearing people asking questions about May 13th. I just put it together and it was easy. Alright. Now tell me the first time, did anybody I. I told you to go look through all them boxes. That's the heart of my story here. The first time anybody ever told me to look through all of those first time you ever knew those boxes were there.
Did you ever see them? Oh, when I went to get those boxes. That's right from the city. Yeah. Me. Tell me about that. Um, Mona said, you sure that cassette player, there's a natural pause in the tape here and it's over an hour. I just realized this has gone on a lot longer than I had planned. So I'm going to split this into two and this will be part one.
Um, and the next episode it'll be part two. I'll pick up exactly where we left off at the pause. Mike Africa Jr. Michael Davis and Dub side Peter Gordon in King Sing, which was Move headquarters up until September, 2023. This recording would not have happened without the permission of. Alberta Africa, the leader at the time.
This is also the year before John Gilbride is shot dead. He's in the middle of a custody battle with Alberta. He is enemy number one. John Gilbride is not just an enemy of Alberta. He's an enemy of every move, member and every move. Supporter. Thanks for listening. It would be great if you could give us five stars.
Give us a review, share this episode, share the series. That way more people can listen. And of course, I love to hear from you. You have questions, comments, tips on anything that we're investigating. You have a media inquiry, just reach out. We can reach out on social media, murder at Ryan's, run on everything, or email me, murder at Ryan's, run@gmail.com.
Thanks for listening. This episode and this series is produced, edited, written, hosted. By me, Beth McNamara and amazing archival research by Robert Helms. Be sure to check out part two of this episode.
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