Murder at Ryan's Run: exposing the cult of John Africa
A true crime investigation exposing the Philadelphia cult operating as the MOVE Organization. Told by survivors and insiders, Murder At Ryan’s Run reveals abuse, lies, and lost lives—plus exclusive tapes, FBI files, and real-time reporting of a daring cult escape. This is the story MOVE leaders don’t want you to hear.
Murder at Ryan's Run: exposing the cult of John Africa
Mike Africa Jr. Version 2001 - Part Deux
This is Part 2—or as they say in France (where MOVE often solicits donations for themselves and Mumia)—Part Deux. It’s not as shocking as Part 1, but it’s still never-before-heard audio from 2001, recorded in the basement of MOVE’s Philly headquarters. A 23-year-old Mike Africa Jr. (aka Michael Davis) reflects on legacy, identity, and his self-declared natural rapping talent (pro tip: double the playback speed for that section). But tucked between the repetition and self-aggrandizing are research gems—and revealing slips of the MOVE tongue—that offer a more detailed picture of life inside the organization.
The producers of this podcast wish to stress that all individuals reference in this series are presumed innocent unless or until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law in the United States of America.
Executive Produced, reported, hosted, and edited by Beth McNamara
Additional research by Robert Helms
Murder At Ryan's Run
Instagram
Facebook Page
Podcast Press
If you have questions, comments, tips, or media inquiries, please reach out on social media or via email: murderatryansrun@gmail.com
All individuals referenced in this podcast are presumed to be innocent unless or until they are found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a United States court of law.
Hi, welcome back. It is part two of the episode, Mike Africa Jr. version 2001. When we left off, it was at a natural pause, so I'm picking back up. Just a reminder, this is July 2nd, 2001, in the evening, in the basement of MOVE headquarters on King Sessing Avenue in West Philadelphia. A man who calls himself Dubside, legal name Peter Gordon, is interviewing 22-year-old Michael Davis, a.k.a. Mike Africa Jr. Mike Africa Jr., now in 2025, is the public face of MOVE.
PG:All right, go ahead. All right. So you went with Mona to the city...
MD:Yeah, she said, you want to do some work for your father and your mother? And I said, yeah. Yeah, you know I'm all about that. Let's go. So she said, all right, good. Because the city got all of these boxes that we got to pick up before they do something with them, get rid of them, whatever. I said, we got to go get them? She said, yeah. I said, let's go. Me, Moe, and Mona went. And she said, all right. So we started loading this box. It was like one box, two boxes. Was it City Hall on the 7th floor? I don't know where we went. It wasn't City Hall. I don't think it was. It must have been the warehouse. Some warehouse, yeah. So it was like one box, two box, three box, four box, ten box, twenty box, thirty box, fifty box. I was like, damn, how many boxes is it? So I'm like, where is all this stuff? She started telling me. So I said, alright. So I'm looking in a couple of boxes and I'm like, damn, this stuff is all burnt up. I said, where did this stuff come from? She said, that was some of the stuff that was in the house May 13th. I don't even remember where I was, what was going on.
PG:You'd have been like, what, six years old? Five. Five? All right. All right, this is a continuation of an interview taking place on July 2, 2001, between Dubside and Mike Africa. And we started before for about 15 minutes, and now we're talking about getting some boxes from the city with Mo and Mona. So go ahead.
MD:Okay, so we went down there. They told us... you know, all of these boxes we got. So, we got all the boxes out, you know, and all the boxes were there. I'm looking at some of these boxes. I asked Mo what was in those boxes and he told me, oh, well, I looked in there. I see for myself it was burned and I asked him where it came from. He said it was in the house on May 13th. So, you know, I'm just like, damn, these boxes are all burned up and everything. So, Ramona told me that there was like some important stuff in those boxes. So, you know, put them in a safe place. So we put them down in the basement where the studio is at now. And we looked through some of them for something. I think we were looking for some guidelines or something. And we found some. And I think what happened, Mona told you there was some good stuff in there.
PG:Well, I can tell you my half of it.
MD:What happened with that?
PG:I knew these boxes. I'm interviewing myself for the record. I saw in the commission files, the police records, that some 30, 40, 50 boxes of evidence had been collected at the site, and it was listed as a property move, and So I knew the police had this stuff. And I believe I told Ramona about it at some point. I said, the police have all these boxes and, you know, we should get that stuff back because there might be useful stuff in there. So I think that was the... She may have found about it through other means, or maybe it was that I told her. Maybe she forgot it anyway. So I said, you know, yeah, get that stuff back. Because it had been several years after the commission and everything, and, you know, just time had been going on, so I didn't want this stuff to get lost. Right. So that was probably... And I may have had to remind her a couple times or something. Anyway, eventually that... That was the initial thing that... She went and got those. I think because there was some... She got a bunch, and there was like two other boxes they had stored somewhere else, and it took a while to get the last one. And there was some... thing like that so at some point after that I said to her was there any stuff in there you know records you know that would be useful for like the August 8th stuff or whatever you know because I was figured you know there's if there's documents could be useful stuff right and what she said to me was no there's nothing in there so I said to myself well you know all right I guess yeah guess it wasn't any guess that's a dead end and then like It's a while after that. It might have been a year or a couple years or it was a while. I don't even remember how it was, but... Oh, yeah, somewhere in there. Moe gave me a bunch of like four by six black and white photographs, you know, singed around the edges and said this was in the Osage stuff. And I looked at it, and there were the aerial photos of Palin Village, you know, headquarters at 33rd and Pearl. Yeah. You know, interesting pictures. Some of them from on street level and some other stuff. And they were all stamped on the back as evidence unit pictures. So these would have been turned over for the August 8th trial. So with that, I knew that there was some stuff missing. survive you know it wasn't all just total ashes like there must have been some stuff there and it was hard for me to believe that there was nothing so what I thought to myself I said well it must be you know if I was Ramona and survived the thing I would really wouldn't even want to think about all these burnt boxes full of ashes you know so I wouldn't be too psyched to even have to go through it all but I wasn't convinced that you know every last little piece of paper had been looked through and checked out but I didn't pursue it again and sometime after that um Yeah, maybe after Mo gave me the picture or something. At some point I was able to say again, you know, I really think we should check through that stuff because there might be some good stuff in there.
MD:I think that's when she told me to check them out.
PG:Yeah.
MD:And she was saying, I think she told me to look through them and I didn't. Yeah. Like she was saying, look through this stuff and I was like, yeah, I don't know if I want to be digging through ashes. Yeah. Might be some voodoo shit in there or something. Yeah. I ain't fucking with that. Like that. And so I was like, no. I mean, I didn't say, no, I ain't doing it. I was just like, yeah, sure. Like, all right. So, um, I think we started talking, me and you started talking about August safe stuff.
PG:Yeah.
MD:And you told me, you know, it might be some valuable stuff in there and, you know, just check it out. We looked through a box or two together.
PG:Okay. Yeah.
MD:And we found something. We think we found like something that looked like a statement, but you was showing me that this is what the, you found a statement or something that, a piece of one or something that you already had or something. You were saying, this is what we need. This is the kind of stuff we're looking for. This is what a statement is. It has the name of the person and this and that. You said, look through these boxes and find any of these you can. And if you can, I remember you telling me this, if you can, find the list because the list of all the statements will tell you who made statements.
PG:The way I remember it is, at some point you said, well, we have this thing. It was a list with all these names and And it was the list of all the statements. And I was saying, this is awesome because now we know what we're looking for.
MD:Well, see, what happened was the first thing that I found was the list, but it was messed up. Yeah. It was like fucked up or something. Yeah, burned like all half on the bottom. See if you can find it. Right. Yeah. And then I found a new one. Yeah, a better copy. Right. Yeah. So I was like, damn. That's what's up. I was loving that. So then we started looking through more boxes and then I started finding statements and I was like... I didn't even know what that stuff was at that
PG:time. You would just bring me a bag of stuff. Yeah, thanks. More, more. Find more. Find more.
MD:So, I mean, now I'm looking at this stuff like, that's what the hell? This is what led to this? So, you know, I'm like, damn. I had no idea what I was actually doing, but I just remember blowing all of this black shit out of my nose every day and, you know, breathing all of this black smoke in and crushed up papers and finding bricks and stuck pieces of paper together and mildew and all kinds. It was nasty shit every day. And
PG:how many, for how many days did you do that? It was a while. It
MD:was a while, a couple of weeks to get through it all. Yeah. To get through it all. And, you know, back then, because I didn't really know the importance of it.
PG:Yeah.
MD:I wasn't looking like I would be looking now. Yeah. So I'm sure there's more. Yeah. I'm, I'm, look, let me tell you, I'm sure there's more. Yeah.
Unknown:I,
MD:I started getting into it then, though. I started really organizing it and writing down what was in that box. Everything that was in that box, I would write down. But because I didn't really know what to look for, I might have been writing stuff down that was really important shit. So at some point, I'm going to go back and look through them again.
PG:Now, would you say that half or more than half or three quarters, whatever, is the transcripts, like court notes of testimony stuff?
MD:Yeah, most of it.
PG:All right.
MD:There's a lot of stuff that they got out of Osage that was just like personal items that belonged to more people. Yeah. Books. And that was in there? Yeah.
PG:Okay.
MD:Books, picture frames, pictures that were burned up. Oh, yeah. We found guidelines. Many, many, many stacks of guidelines. Things that we hadn't... Things that people like Rhea, who was like one of the first MOVE members, hadn't seen since 1973. Yeah. Shit like that.
Beth:Rhea... is also known as Sue Africa. Legal name, Suzanne Levino, longtime MOVE member, still a MOVE member. She's white. Dubside is white. Mike is talking about finding guidelines in these boxes of evidence retrieved from Philadelphia authorities from the smoldering, collapsed 6221 Osage Avenue in the days following the confrontation that led to the explosives being dropped by police. And then there was the fire that engulfed not only 6221 Osage, but two entire blocks, destroying over over 200 homes. The documents and personal items Mike is talking about going through with Dubside are moldy from water and black from soot.
MD:So it was some real valuable stuff in there. Yeah. Sections that had been written by the coordinator dictated to Rhea so she could write down. That was like things that was really like picking her back. And, you know, we had many meetings about like that stuff. And it was like people would say, well, puga found these guidelines and um
Beth:puga is mike's move name that he never liked and never brings up all the kids and the adults had multiple move names
MD:and these boxes that they got down in the basement and then you know before you know it four hours passed and they talking about the old days from when they wrote that section and it's like you know a lot of a lot of good came out of those yeah came out of that
PG:yeah
MD:huh
PG:That's quieter. I
MD:got the gate on so you don't hear it as much, but every time I start speaking and to break it, it's there.
PG:Yeah. So, um, um, that covers a good deal of that, but, um, just give me another impression of what would be running through your mind just dealing with like these ashes in your hand and all this like soot and burnt stuff. I mean, just, How was that?
MD:May 13th kept popping in my mind. I kept trying not to think about it, but it was kind of hard.
PG:Yeah.
MD:Something else that came, I mean, like, you know, picking up this thing and it's just flicking all up in your hand and it's just like, at a certain point I got mad. Yeah. Because it was like, you know, like thinking about all of these fucking people who did this shit.
PG:Yeah.
MD:And then thinking about what happened. to, to, to my family.
PG:Yeah.
MD:And, um, then like a, a, a feeling of like, um, like thinking about the coordinators and saying to myself, damn, he knew exactly where to put these things. Yeah. Cause that stuff was, was burning for hours.
PG:Yeah.
MD:But a lot of things that was very important that we using today did not get burned. Yeah. A lot of things. Yeah. So I would think about it and be like, damn, that's really, that's really something. The things that we didn't really need as much that might've been on top that might've got burned, which prevented the other things from getting burned. It was just, it is, you know, to me, it was just like, damn amazed how the, Everything didn't get burned. Back then, that's how it was. I was thinking like, damn, how did this not get burned? This had to be
PG:enough. It was amazing. Carlos or somebody was saying, well, there couldn't possibly be any paper that came out of the house because it was all too hot and everything.
MD:Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But you can see that we had to have been proven wrong because you can see that there's many of those pages that just burned on the edges and all the rest of it is fine. Yeah. So
PG:the stuff that was underwater. Yeah. That's what I'm about to say. You can see some. Yeah.
MD:So he, he, look, let me tell you, he put, he put it in the perfect spot. Yeah. I mean, damn. Yeah. I couldn't. Hey, look, no, some, a fucking bomb blow up a house and the shit is burning on fire. But I don't know how many hours. Yeah. A lot of people just didn't burn.
PG:Yeah.
MD:Bricks burned before the paper did. Yeah.
Unknown:Yeah.
MD:It was sweeping bricks up.
Beth:I find it interesting that Mike is just simply saying the coordinator, but not saying John Africa and not mentioning that he's related like he does today all the time. It's my great uncle. The back and forth between Dubside and Mike about how amazing it is that all this paper of the coordinator's teachings, the guidelines didn't burn, but bricks did. They're not even mentioning the people, the adults or the children or even the animals that they often do in public. Dubside definitely knew the adults in 6221 Osage, the MOVE members. He met them in the court gallery of Wesley Cook, a.k.a. Mumia Abu-Jamal's 1982 murder trial. And Dubside went to Osage. He told me he did. He has never told me, and I haven't seen it anywhere else, if he actually met Vincent Lepart, a.k.a. John Africa, the coordinator.
PG:The other little background stuff I need is tell me about the formation of the Seeds of Wisdom. Why did y'all decide to
MD:do that? How did it all begin? When I came around, I was already writing raps. I had started writing raps since I was about... I started writing raps when I was in third grade in school.
PG:Before Laverne took you over there, you weren't really down with hip-hop and rapping. I knew
MD:nothing about music.
PG:We
MD:didn't listen to the radio unless we listened to some old stories about animals. We didn't listen to the radio. We didn't watch TV. I didn't know nothing about the music unless Laverne or somebody might have put a tape on a record. or something and we you know got up and danced or some shit like that but very rarely did we do anything like that
PG:so when you went to school is that where you've heard stuff
MD:when I went to school when no first of all my cousin David he went to school first and he got a tape new edition cool it now
PG:yeah
MD:And I was listening to it, and I didn't like it at first. It was like, what the fuck is this bullshit? Like, you into that new shit, huh? But as time went on, everybody's singing the songs, Cool It Now and Candy Girl and all of this shit. I'm like, damn, it ain't so bad. So I'm listening to it, and I'm starting to get into it. Everybody else is doing it, so I'm starting to like it. And rap wasn't something that we listened to. We listened to, you know... uh, um, new edition. We listened to, um, the first groups we listened to would be like, um, uh, we would listen to Stevie wonder, Michael Jackson. Yeah. You know, those, you know, that kind of music. And the first rap song that I remember hearing that I liked was run DMC. Okay. It was my Adidas. And then when they came out, walk this way and like LL Cool J was doing, I'm bad. And, um, That was later. That was in the late 80s when all of that was happening. But the early 80s, we was listening to Run DMC and talking about these shell tops and shit. But I had no interest in any of it, really, other than putting it on and letting other people hear it or whatever. We listened to it a little bit, but I wasn't into rap and had no idea or no... I felt no need or want to do any kind of writing. I didn't even think about it. And how I got into it, I was about 9 or 10 when I first started writing. And I learned how to read a little bit and I could write words down so I could make them rhyme and stuff. And I was listening to LL Cool J and I said, damn, I could do that. My sister turned to Whitney Houston and she started singing the song. And I started singing with her, but I didn't know the words. Yeah. So I was just making up my own words. Yeah. Freestyling. And I'm like, you know, singing this song. I think the song she was listening to, I still remember that song. It was called How Well I Know.
PG:Yeah.
MD:And I'm like, you know, bobbed my head to the song How Well I Know. You know, all this shit. And I just started singing along with it but saying my own words and Whit was like that's not what she's saying but what you said sound good and I'm like rapping away and shit and then I start you know just playing on the box and I do this and this and that we freestyling you know what I mean then other you know other people my other cousins started doing it and then we started like writing certain things down just to memorize so we could tell other people yeah and when we started going back to school for that summer other people was doing it other kids was doing it and we was like having battle battling we was battling having contests and shit then we started having talent shows in the school so it was like i could do this on the stage yeah i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it and then um they told us to my my art teacher miss jordan in third grade she said we want you to write a song write a rap about colors about primary colors and secondary colors and use every color in two verses So I said, I can do that. I wrote this. I wrote it. And it was like, everybody was like, this guy, I don't know about that. But the only reason I wrote it is because she said, if you write it, you'll get an extra credit. Hey,
PG:So
MD:I was like, oh, shit, I'll get an A for that. So I wrote it, you know, and it came out messed up, but I got the A. And that was all I was concerned about. And then people started telling me, well, you need to write something else. You know, let's do one together. You know, a little other eight-year-olds and nine-year-olds come to me. Let's write one together, Mike. Let's do this. So we start writing and we start, you know, playing around with it. And then it was just like, it just, you know, went on and on. And then, like, I ran into somebody named John John. He said he could give me a record deal with, like, you know, Run DMC and shit. And I'm like, damn, all right. But he said, but you got to make some new, you got to work on some new material, some new raps and stuff. And I was like, all right, I'll do it. I'll do it. You got to write about this. You got to write about that. I said, I could do that. I could do that. So I'm not really knowing what I'm doing or what I'm saying, just trying to meet Run DMC. So I wrote the raps. I wrote all the raps and stuff. And then, so when I came into Move, I had already been writing raps. I had been writing for a long time, Thug Life. You know, I'll cut your fucking head off and I'll shoot you 45 times with my nine and this and that and all of this. And it was just crazy, man. I remember I had a rap called Bitch Ass Niggas. It was like, it was like, Bitch Ass Niggas, Bitch Ass Niggas. And it was just like crazy shit. You know what I mean? I'm going to shoot you in your chest and this and that and all that. So, when I came to the organization, it was just like, put a message in this, you know. The next rap that I write is going to be. So I'm thinking, how do I write a rap about move? It's hard because making the transition, it's easy to write about a thug life. Yeah. I mean, that's easy shit. Yeah. But when you put in a message to the music and making people like it, it's harder because you got to think about what you're doing and you got to do it in a way where it's not plain or something that you're preaching to people. Yeah. You know, it's got to be something that people like. So that's what I try to do. And when I did it, I let Mona hear it. She said, keep practicing. So I'm like, I'm all egotistical. I've been writing rap since I was nine years old. I can write a rap. I can do this. And don't tell me to keep practicing. I'm like kind of mad, right? So I wrote another one. It's a little better. She said, a little better. Keep practicing. So I'm like, you tripping, right? This rap is bang. This joint is hitting. So I said to myself, I would never write a weak rap again.
PG:Ever.
MD:Ever. If I write it and it is weak, nobody will ever hear it. I will rip it up and I will burn it. So I wrote another one. And I went to the prison to see my dad and Mumia. So I let Mumia hear it. He said, keep practicing.
Beth:Yeah, Mumia and Mike's dad, Mike Davis Sr. They were in the same prison at one point. And Mike went to see them in one prison visit. Mike is consistent with this story about... talking to Mumia about his raps. He tells it whenever he wants to connect himself and or move to Mumia. This back and forth about Mike's unrealized rap star dream origin story, it's a bit boring, I know. But Dubside is eating it up because he's a music tech guy who has also been a DJ and he would help both Mike and the other Africa kids who were selected by the leaders to perform as the seed of wisdom at Move quote unquote programs. Dubside also did audio for these Move programs. Dubside and Mike aren't boring each other. It's just me and maybe you. But this is unedited, so we're just sitting in the headquarters basement with them. For like the next five minutes, it goes on and on about Mike and him trying to write raps and how good they were and how he wanted to get them out to the world and get a record deal and all that stuff. If I were you, I would just put it on double speed for about, I don't know, five minutes, and then some other good stuff comes up.
MD:He said, don't stop rapping. He said, don't stop rapping. Keep practicing. When you finish this one, write another one. I'm like, damn, I can't get nowhere. So that's when I wrote Just Because It's Legal Don't Make It Right. And I spent about a year writing it. Seriously, seriously putting a lot of time and energy into it. And which is probably why I got the kind of response that it got from people. Because, you know, it was like I heard Ramona say, Just Because It's Legal Don't Make It Right. And I said, that's it. That's the one I want right there. That quote right there. Just because it's legal, don't make it right. And I said, that's it right there. And that's why it's so long, too. That song is about five, six minutes long. Just straight words. So it was like I just vowed that I would never, never write a weak one again. And I just tried to live up to it. And we start rapping. I tried to get other people. other people involved. Because, you know, when you're rapping, you just try to get other people involved, rap with you. You don't like rapping by yourself. So I tried to get my other brothers, Boosh and Deesh and them riding all in and Jay and everybody. So they were like, all right, yeah, come on, let's do it, let's do it. But they was like more on the playing by. They were younger than I am, so they were like more on the playing by. Let's jump up on the stage and, you know, rap to these people. And I was more on the thing of like, let's get a record deal so we can put this out To everybody. But they were just playing around and shit. That's how I felt like they were just playing around. I was playing around too. But I felt like I was a little bit more serious than they were. And so as time went on, they got a little older and they started getting more involved with things. And I was trying to get them more involved. And in 97, 97, No, 1996. It was around September 96. They said, all right, look, you keep complaining about us not being real serious about it. Let's get serious. Let's get serious. And they said, let's start a group. And I was like, I've been trying to tell you all that for five years. Let's go. So they're like, I'm serious, though. I'm serious. I'm like, all right, let's be serious. So Jay was there, me and him. We were doing it first. We didn't have any name or anything. We were just like, you know, getting up there doing Just Because It's Legal Don't Make It Right. We did that shit for about five years. No, about four years. And people just responded to it because it was easy to understand. Just Because Something Is Legal Don't Make It Right. And we just ran down examples in the song. I don't
PG:remember the two of
MD:you doing that. We recorded it. You recorded us one time.
PG:In my house? Yeah.
MD:Just Because It's Legal Don't Make It Right.
PG:Doing that one? Yeah. I don't
MD:remember that one.
Unknown:Yeah.
MD:No, no, no. Not at your house. Next door. Next door we did it. Where? Over here. In the back room, yeah.
PG:No, because when you came to my house online... Oh, my
MD:God. That was a disaster.
PG:No, but that was before this point? That was before this point. That was before
MD:this point. That's when I was still trying to write my own shit and all of that. Yeah. So me and Jay did that. We did a couple of shows together or something. He just didn't really seem interested. So I was just like, all right, well, I do it by myself. I've been doing it by myself for 10 years. I don't care. So... You know, Boosh and Dee, they jumped on it. And then Nimrod jumped on it. And then, like, I jumped on Rhonda and Pixie. And Rhea and them was like, just, yeah, you know, y'all could really, you know, make a strong presence and put out this information if y'all, you know, do that. He got a good idea, you know, and whatever. So, we did a couple of, we did the tribunal in 96. And we said, if we're going to be doing shows this big, this was like, you know, 2000 people. The biggest, biggest crowd I had performed in front of by myself was like, you know, maybe like three, 400.
PG:Yeah.
MD:So this was a big for me and I was used to it. The other guys, they weren't used to it. So I'm like trying to be like the one that's trying to show them what's up, you
PG:know?
MD:So, um, I said, well, look, if we're going to be doing this shit like this, 2000 people, that's a lot of people. What the hell are we going to call ourselves? So, um, I started thinking and they start thinking, everybody started thinking. And, um, I said, damn, I went, I said, we need a name. We need a name. Just kept thinking. We need a name. So I went to work with, um, this guy and he told me, he said, um, what was the name of the, um, the, the group that John Africa has sent down to Richmond, Virginia. I saw that was the season wisdom chapter. That was all the kids. Yeah. I was down there for a minute. I, you know, I was one of the seeds of wisdom.
Unknown:Um,
MD:Seeds of wisdom. Seeds of wisdom. So he said, yeah, you could call your group Sprouts of Wisdom or something. You're not seeds anymore. Babies are seeds. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. A seed is just a... You could be an 80-year-old seed. So I'm like, seeds of wisdom. So I'm anxious and I'm like, trying to get home to tell everybody. Rhea, Rhea, Rhea, what you think about this? Can we call ourselves seasoned wizards like we did when we was little? Can we do that? I'm like, you know, I'm like all excited and shit. Like, I feel like I'm like five years old again, you know, running around the house. Rhea, Rhea, please, can we, can we, can we? You know, like that kind of shit, right? So she said, okay, yeah. So she's, let me, let me, um, let me talk to Bert, you know, we could talk about it, you know, let's have a meeting and talk about it. Cause this is, you know, she was explaining, this is some serious, this is serious activity y'all about to get into. This ain't no, you know, playing shit. Y'all about to talk to people and rap people all over the world. You can't be playing around about it. So if y'all serious and calling yourself seeds of wisdom, that's a serious thing. I'm like, yeah, come on.
Beth:Yeah, I'm serious.
MD:I'm serious.
Beth:Seed of Wisdom was a front name for MOVE when Vincent Lepart sent all of his followers out of Philadelphia down to Richmond in April of 1977. Well, not all of his followers, selected followers. And the goal was to evade child protective services in Philadelphia that was investigating reports of child neglect and abuse from neighbors in Peloton Village, but also from estranged, concerned, non-MOVE family members of the children. Like with everything big and small in MOVE, Burt, Alberta, Wicker, Gilbride, Africa, the coordinator's wife and the leader, she has to approve every little thing. And usually that means a meeting. Based on what I found out about Richmond, Virginia, I think Alberta and Rhea and all the original MOVE members might have been very wary about using Seed of Wisdom. Because when you mention Seed of Wisdom, it brings up Richmond. This is an underage kid rap group in MOVE. 14 children were abducted by MOVE on the orders of Vincent Lepard in 1980, including Mike. So warrants were still out there and it would bring up a lot of questions that did not match up with how MOVE even talks about Richmond when they talk about Richmond, even today. She
MD:said, all right, we have a meeting about it and talk to y'all some more about the seriousness of it. So we had a meeting and Rhea came in and other people came, Ramona came in and Like, people started immediately like, hey, Seeds is here. And we was like, oh shit, this is our name now. It's over now, you know. So, you know, we, you know, from then on, it was like, you know, Seeds of Wisdom. Seeds of Wisdom. And it was like, I felt good about it because I felt like it was something that we had to live up to. Because to call ourselves a seed of the wisdom of John Africa is not something that It's not just a name. And that's how Rhea was saying when she was saying it. Like, this is not just a name that y'all going to be doing. This is something that is real important because this is how people are going to look at John Africa through y'all. If y'all set a weak example, they're going to look at John Africa as being fucked up. And we can't have that. So if y'all serious, y'all can do it. If y'all not, say it now. So we was like, You serious? You serious? Yeah, I'm serious. Let's go. You know, cease the wisdom, you know. And then we start working. We start writing together. And, you know, everybody starts collectively giving out different ideas about certain things we need to do. You know, our uniforms, our strategies as to how we, you know, show stage shows, how we open up and all of that kind of stuff. And every since then, it's just been like that. Cease the wisdom. Cease the wisdom.
PG:Well, I need to put in something about you getting married to Robin and about Alex.
Beth:Okay. Finally, all that music stuff is over. And Dubside is going to have Mike talk about what you know by now is the arranged underage marriages in Move.
PG:All right. Say something about that. All right.
Unknown:Okay.
MD:How do I start with that? Well, me and Robin got married in 97. Okay. April 97.
Beth:Robin was 15. Mike was 18, soon to be 19. Right.
MD:It was... Everybody had... When we were little, we all had, like, people who we said that we were going to marry when we got old enough.
PG:Yeah.
MD:And, like, Tommaso had somebody. Netta had somebody. Phil had somebody. Everybody would just say, okay, when we get older, we're going to just marry this person or that person. And it stayed like that for, like, you know, a long time until people actually did get older. And that's how it was. And even when we were little, Jermaine would say, I'm going to marry Whit. Really? Yeah.
Beth:The kids were all saying that because that's what they were told. My question for Dubside here is, you didn't grow up in MOVE. You grew up outside of MOVE in a typical family. And you know the laws, but you don't ask any questions.
MD:He used to say that, I'm going to marry Whit. And, um... Um... Jay used to say I'm going to marry Ronna. Yeah. And I didn't, I used to, there was another girl named Kazi that I would say I'm going to marry.
Beth:Yeah. Kazi is a name you won't hear Mike or Move mention. I track this slip because Mike feels so comfortable with Dubside. Dubside is family, Move family. He's in Move headquarters for one, and that has to be approved by Alberta. Kazi was born in MOVE in 1978, not sure of the month. Her mom was Valerie, legal surname either Wilson or Brown, hard to know because of the street, hard to know because of the arrest strategy of MOVE to always give false names. Anyway, Valerie had her first daughter in MOVE by Don Glassie, the white grad student co-founder of MOVE with Vincent Leapheart. Don Glassie recruited Valerie literally straight out of Clark Park in West Philadelphia. Then when Don Glassie left MOVE because he became a cooperating witness for the feds, Valerie was put with Steve Africa, another white MOVE member. They all kind of have the same look, tallish, thin, brown, tallish, thin, brown hair from a close middle-class family. Valerie is African-American, Black, and so her girls were very light-skinned. And we know that Vincent Lepart had a preference for that.
MD:But she, Valerie was her mother, and Valerie left the organization and went to Virginia. And so, you know, that was it for that.
Beth:Kazi and her sister Linda were taken out of move by their mother, Valerie, in April 1981. right before Vincent Lee Part is apprehended in Rochester, New York, after being a fugitive for three years. Valerie literally escaped 6-2-2-1 Osage in the middle of the night with her girls and went back to Richmond, Virginia, because she knew that MOVE would not go there to take her or her kids back, because of the arrest warrants for child abduction. One arrest was for Valerie, and the one arrest warrant was for Valerie, and the other was for Saren Simp. One of the arrest warrants was for Valerie herself, and the other was for Sharon Sims, one of Mike's maternal aunts and a former MOVE member. Valerie did get picked up by Richmond police shortly after returning to Richmond, and she told them that she had left MOVE and her girls were in school, so the prosecutor dropped the charges on the condition that she keep following through with keeping her girls in school, which she did. Valerie and her two girls never go back to MOVE or to Philadelphia. And it forced leaders to have to pick another mate match for Mike, whose nickname and move was Puga.
MD:But that's how it was. I mean, we didn't think we were serious. No, no, no. We did think we were serious. But as we got older, we thought that when we were little, we wasn't serious. You see what I'm saying? When we were little, we were like, I'm serious. I'm
PG:serious.
MD:But when we started getting older, like 13, 14, we was like, We was just playing back then, but no, we were serious. So, um, we, we always said that we would get married at a young age just so we wouldn't have a lot of crazy shit to deal with, with, you know, women.
PG:Yeah.
MD:So, um, when I came back to the organization, it wasn't like that because I was the crazy shit that the women had to deal with and I was just coming out of the system. So, um, there was like, um, Jay helped. Jay was saying that he was going to hook up with Rihanna. It just went on and on and on. People started getting married. Malachi got married. Jermaine got married. I was feeling left out. I was like, damn. Everybody's hooking up and getting their kids and doing their thing. Starting their families and shit. I feel kind of bad. I want a wife. You know what I mean? It was just like either nobody else was available in the organization or too young, or I was too young, you
PG:know,
MD:I felt left out because that's what all my brothers were doing. You know what I mean? But I could have been 10 years old and felt left out. You know what I mean? So when the time came and it was just that time, it was like, Hey, Hey, let's get married. You know what I mean? So, so we did. And, and, and, and like a year later, A year later, Alex came on the scene. All right. And they're making noise ever since.
PG:Yeah. So how do you see, you know, making sure Alex... Like, how do you want Alex to grow up as far as things like... raw food and exercising in the park. I got
MD:that boy running. He's two years old, but he's running. He's doing wheelbarrows. He knows what push-ups are. He does pull-ups. He does it all. When we were little, we had a coordinator to look to to keep us away from cooked food. He don't have that. He got me. I'm nothing like John Africa. He's like... He eats cooked food. He eats crackers. Occasionally, he might get a slice of bread or something. But his diet is raw food. That's his main diet. And before he eats any cooked food, I don't care if it's a crumb of a cracker, he's eating a root, a whole one. I'm talking about a six-inch long root. And he's only two years old. He's going to eat that root. Then he's going to eat some spinach. And he's going to eat some onion with it. And when he gets that cracker, he's going to eat some garlic with it. I don't care if it's one cracker. He drinks water. If he wants some juice, I'll squeeze him some. If it's apple juice or something like that, I'm like, damn, I don't know if I want to give him this. But he's watching other people eat it. So, okay, you can have a sip. You know, that's how I am. I want him to eat all raw food as long and as much as he can. Because it's only a matter of time before this system shit start taking effect on him where he can understand what's happening. And I don't want him to grow up understanding and thinking that cooked food is where it's at. You know, we used to try to sneak cooked food when we were kids because we saw, like I said, we followed our parents. But when we were around a coordinator, you could put some cooked food in front of us and we throw it in your face. Yeah. Literally. So, um, that's how I want him to be. You know what I mean? And let me tell you, look, he's, no man, he's strong. He's strong. He be showing me things. I'll be like, it ain't like that. He'll be like, yes it is. But like, nah, man, let me show you. And because his mind is so simple and, It ain't got all that shit on it. He's just like, he just goes straight to the root of the problem. And I'm saying, look, Alex, you got to eat a root. He said, did you eat one yet? I'm like, all right, I'll eat one with you.
PG:You know what I mean?
MD:It's like, you know, you can't put demands on, I can't put demands on him that I'm not willing to do myself. So if his diet is 90% raw food, that's what mine got to be. But, um, You know, it don't go past that. If I want him to be strong, I got to be strong. You know, all my cousins that were taking out the organization with me, if they're still in the system, it's because their parents are. Just like my mom and my dad are removed. And so am I. And so is my sister, you know.
PG:So tell me about your plans, like specifically you, but sort of the organization, when the Move 9 come home.
MD:what's going to happen?
PG:Yeah.
MD:Ah, man. I don't know. From the beginning, I don't know. You know, the celebration is going to be so, you know, so
PG:massive. I mean, besides... We know there's going to be some celebration, but like... Is everybody going to, like, find a place to live in here in Philadelphia? Oh, no. We can start chapters. Tell me about that. We out
MD:of here. Get the fuck. We out of here. It can burn for all I get. Yeah. But we out of here, man. You know, we're going to start some chapters. There's probably always going to be somebody here to keep the information going here. But we're going to start some chapters. We going all over
PG:the world. So you personally, are you? Oh, yeah. I'm out of here. I'm out of here.
MD:I'm gone. If I can help it, if I have any say about it, I'm out of here.
PG:How far out of here? The state? The country? The continent?
MD:Africa. All
PG:right. Northern
MD:Africa.
PG:I heard that. All
MD:right. Far from here. You know, I mean, look, it don't matter where we go. We're going to have to fight in position, fight problems. But, you know, with the problem that we're dealing with here, I've been dealing with this shit for 22 years and beyond. So I'm through at least with this part. Yeah. I'll go anywhere, man. I'll go anywhere.
PG:As long as it ain't here. As long as it
MD:ain't here. Shit, I go to the rain. I go to the, what they call that? The Sahara Desert. I go, what's that other jungle? The Amazon jungle?
PG:Yeah. Amazon. How about Siberia?
MD:I go to Siberia any day. I'd rather toast in Siberia than live in this shit.
PG:Siberia, you freeze. That's what that is? Oh, Siberia. Siberia. I'm thinking Liberia. No, Siberia. Okay, Siberia.
MD:Oh, that's what it... Oh man, I go to Alaska.
PG:Alaska, you still got the same government. Siberia, you got a different government to deal with. Yeah,
MD:I guess so. Everywhere is a government. Everywhere is oppression. We probably go to a place where there's more oppression than other places.
PG:But the only thing that's holding you to Philly right now is the fact that your parents are in jail.
MD:That's it. When they come home, we go home.
PG:Yeah. Alright. That's a quote.
MD:Hey, when they come home, we go home.
PG:Yeah.
MD:Wherever that may be. Right. For Rhea, if that's Europe. For me, if that's Africa. For Carlos, if that's Puerto Rico. I don't care. We out. Yeah. Goodbye. And we won't be saying welcome to Philly no more. You going to that goose town?
PG:Shit. Well, that's about all I had here. This is fun. You can stop the tape.
Beth:So that was Michael Davis, a.k.a. Mike Africa Jr., version 2001. A lot of it was pretty boring, especially this part two. I mean, not for Mike. It never is, in my opinion. And Peter Gordon, a.k.a. Dubside. What's so funny is that he is anti-technology. He likes to tell everybody that he doesn't have a cell phone or use e-mails. I guess that's his deference to John Africa or maybe his connection or what he learned from being around MOVE. With everything Dubside says about being anti-technology, he has a voicemail, he can be reached by Mike and Pam Africa and anyone in MOVE, and he has a podcast about himself. It focuses on his expertise in Greenland sea kayaking. Very niche. And, of course, in move fashion, he has a GoFundMe for himself. I interviewed Dubside on the phone twice, in person once in Philadelphia, at the house owned by Michael Davis, a.k.a. Mike Africa Jr. Hi. Are you Robin? Yes. I'm Beth. Nice to meet you in person. Hi. Do you know everybody? I know Dead Talk.
PG:How you doing? I'm Pam. All right, so this is going to be good.
Beth:That's for another episode. Oh, I forgot to mention. The whole reason Dubside did this interview with Mike was not for a podcast, because there weren't any in 2001. It was for a story he was writing about Mike, I believe for MOVE's newspaper, where they put out information, which was called New Day. And anyway, it never got published, but Dubside did mail me a card copy of it, and I have it, so I will also make that available so you can see what his end product was. As always, if you have questions, comments, tips, information about the 2002 unsolved murder of former MOVE member John Gilbride, the whereabouts or the circumstances around missing Shieda Holloway, or the burial sites of Baby Life Africa or Rhonda Ward's baby, or anything about suspicious deaths in MOVE, or about money, or about the allegations of child abuse in MOVE, Please reach out. I will speak to you on or off the record. You can follow us on social media. You can message us there. You can email me at murder at Ryan's run at gmail.com. Giving our podcast five stars, writing a review and sharing really gets the word out. And of course, just thanks for listening. If it wasn't for the listeners, I would be totally losing my mind because all of this information just should not live in one or two people's heads like Bob and myself. It'll drive you crazy.
