May 13, 1985: A Police Officer’s Account from Osage Avenue

The haunting story of the MOVE bombing unfolds through the eyes of Philadelphia police officer Jim Berghaier—the Stakeout Cop who rescued 13-year-old Birdie Africa, the only child to survive when authorities dropped explosives on a West Philadelphia rowhouse on May 13, 1985.

Standing in the same narrow alley where it happened, Berghaier walks us minute by minute through his experience of that day. His visceral recollections take us back to the moment a satchel of explosives—meant to disable a fortified rooftop bunker—missed its mark. A fire quickly spread, engulfing the MOVE compound and surrounding homes. Through the smoke and chaos,  Berghaier spots a young boy emerging from the flames. Ignoring warnings that it might be a trap, he sprinted into the water-filled alley to save him.

The emotion in Berghaier’s voice is unmistakable as he recalls Birdie’s first words: “Don’t shoot me, don’t shoot me.” Followed by the painfully ordinary: “I’m hungry. I want something to eat.” These moments cut through the political narratives that have long defined the MOVE bombing—revealing something more human, more immediate.

What makes this account especially powerful is Berghaier’s candor. Officers had been told there were no children in the house. They expected the fire to be extinguished. They thought MOVE members would come out. But they didn’t. Eleven people—six adults and five children—died inside 6221 Osage Avenue. Sixty-one homes were destroyed in a predominantly Black middle-class neighborhood.

This episode offers a first-hand account—but doesn’t claim to provide a definitive conclusion. Forty years later, many questions remain. But hearing directly from those who were there adds a crucial layer to understanding what happened that day.

Let It Burn - Michael and Randi Boyette https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31202750-let-it-burn

Temple University Archive - MOVe https://digital.library.temple.edu/digital/collection/p16002coll18

The producers of this podcast wish to stress that all individuals reference in this series are presumed innocent unless or until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law in the United States of America.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to the MOVE Bombing
• 2:09 Meeting Officer Jim Burgheier
• 6:01 Police Positioning Before the Explosion
• 13:03 The Fire Spreads Through Osage Avenue
• 17:23 Rescuing Birdie Africa
• 28:21 Reflections and Aftermath
• 34:45 The Human Cost and Legacy

Transcript

Beth: 0:00

This episode contains vivid descriptions of a police confrontation with MOVE on May 13, 1985. It is intended for mature audiences. Today is May 13, 2025, the 40th anniversary of what's simply called the MOVE bombing. But it was more than that. It was the culmination of years of conflict between the MOVE organization and their neighbors, between the MOVE organization and the press, between the MOVE organization and the Philadelphia police, first in Powhatan Village and later on Osage Avenue. It was also years of arrests and convictions for third-degree murder of police officer James Ramp, explosives, weapons charges and countless misdemeanors. It didn't start with an explosion or a fire and it didn't end there either.

Beth: 0:55

In September 2019, I brought my audio recorder to Osage Avenue to meet James , Berghaier a former Philadelphia police officer in the stakeout unit. James , a former Philadelphia police officer in the stakeout unit. If you've heard his name before, it's likely because it's attached to a single moment in the move story on May 13th 1985. He's the officer who carried 13-year-old Bertie Africa the only child to survive that day out of the back alley behind 6221 Osage. What you're about to hear is our unedited conversation as he walks me through what he remembers happened in that alley slash driveway after Lieutenant Frank Powell dropped the satchel of explosives from the state police helicopter and missed the bunker, and then a fire started. Now a lot happened in the 12 hours before that moment on May 13th, but for today and for this episode, I'm focusing on the back alley, because this is audio, it's not video. So you don't have visuals. You don't have diagrams, drone shots or recreations. You just have what you can hear, what Jim Burgheier had to say. So, again, this is one piece of the gigantic 50-year move puzzle.

Beth: 2:07

A narrow view from a narrow alley on a one-way street named Osage Avenue in West Philadelphia. It's a sunny and kind of humid September afternoon in 2019. It's late in the day, the light is warm. We've just met up near the historical marker on Cobbs Creek Parkway, the one that tells a passerby that something happened here. I'm miking Jim up Behind us. Traffic is starting to build, commuters heading home to the suburbs. We cross the street, walk down Osage and Jim takes me around the back into the alley behind 6221 Osage. As you listen, I want you to imagine you're there with us, with me and with Jim. That's why I'm sharing this audio without edits, without narration and without my usual footnotes.

Jim : 3:00

So you want me to start now? Yeah, okay. So I took a position on Cobbs Creek Parkway behind a tree line Right over here, right across the street, and we were to take that position until after the device or bomb was dropped on the bunker at 6221.

Beth: 3:20

So this would be May 13th around 536 o'clock, correct? So, this is when you guys were told to move back.

Jim : 3:26

Well, we were already in the tree line before it started. That's when we were told they're going to drop a device. Suit up. We were just. We took all of our equipment off prior to that. We were soaked it was hot that day and they said suit up, they're going to drop a bomber device in the helicopter. To be honest with you, we dismissed it at first and then we saw people moving around and we figured oh my God they are. And then we heard the helicopter. So we put our gear back on, took a position behind a tree, saw the helicopter make it sweep, heard it. Didn't see it. But as we ran from the OCH side of the street to here, saw like an orange bloom or ball.

Beth: 4:04

So you ran towards the fire.

Jim : 4:05

Yeah, it wasn't a fire yet, but you ran towards it. No, but it was on top. You could see it was on top. See where that tree is down there. Yeah, it's mid-block. Okay, we saw the flames come up and we were told to take a position to assume that the move people would come out of the house. So we ran down this way. And when come out of the house? So we ran down this way, and when I say we, it was myself, my partner, tommy Meller, there was Officer Larry Delisi, officer Terrence Mulvihill, I think Officer Graham and Reaver were. They weren't on the original team. They came later on. So when I say team, they weren't the original guys, but they came during the day. So what we did is, when we came down here this is the driveway and then there will be an alleyway here on the left, and when we first came down, we made a left on the driveway right this, yeah, we went.

Beth: 4:58

We went back here the other day.

Jim : 5:00

Okay, so when we went down to the driveway, we stopped and we took a position at the end of the house. Now you can see that grate that forms a T, so to speak. The driveway goes down at the bottom and the driveway that runs behind the house is like from 6221 down. That drain was clogged, that water was high. That water was high and at the highest point, obviously, and that was from the water cannons that even were turned on either during the day prior to where that moved down.

Beth: 5:31

So that's a sewer drain.

Jim : 5:32

Yeah, we'll walk down here, but I'll show you. I was on. Then after a while down there we kept on peeping on the wall. We didn't feel like we had a good vantage point. So as a result of that, we came back up here and we walked down this driveway, I mean this alleyway. So we walked down here and this walkway where this fence is, that fence wasn't there. This walkway made it right and went all the way up the other end of the driveway and it remained this high and on top of this, on top of this wall it's waist high, probably, was that was another three foot fence, okay, and that went down and paralleled the houses between Osage and Pine. Okay, this concrete wall, this concrete wall, correct, it went all the way down here. And then it went this way all the way up and on top of this was like a three-foot fence, okay, and it went all the way up. So other officers took some locations over here in the partitions between the houses, but myself, officer Meller and myself stood here. That way we had vision down. We could see all the way down the alley, uh.

Jim : 6:52

And then, right after the device was dropped, naturally we thought, you know, that was the highest that we were on alert because we thought they were coming out. Then, as time progressed, the fire kept rolling and rolling and rolling, spreading and spreading. We thought the same thing everybody else did oh my God, where's the firemen? I remember getting on the radio and telling Post One that the electric was on. There was electric wires that ran down there and there was a transformer over here and it was sparking then because of the heat. Well, we were told that the electricity is turned off. They turned the electricity. It was turned off. No, it wasn't. We're looking at the thing sparking that was. That was over there.

Jim : 7:35

That wasn't on fire at the time, it was just sparking for whatever so there was a live wire, yeah yeah, this one there was one over here was flapping around later Some of these I think, but that not immediately, that eventually. So at a certain point I don't know how long it was, if you check Now I can tell you events. This is how I testify I can tell you events that happened, but not times. You can figure that later out through. So at a certain point there was a tree behind the move house 6221 on Pine Street and the fire spread from the move house to the tree. Now it started. The house is on Pine Street and over the radio they said you know, start evacuating your post if that was the case. So at a certain time we thought we were the only guys here because all the posts were leaving. The posts that they were in their homes weren't catching on fire, so they were leaving. So at a certain time I thought we were the only ones back here. At that time it was Miller and myself and there was other stakeout guys to my left. There was nobody to the right, they were to the left.

Jim : 8:40

At a certain point, officer Mike Tersey, who was in Post 1 during the day, came walking down Pine Street and he saw Tommy and myself. I'm the godfather for Tommy's daughter, mike's the godfather for his son, so we're close. So we came in and he said hey, good to see you guys. You made it through this. This. That the other thing we're trying to like figure out what was going on. And then we're standing there and a fire officer came low, crawling on the ground Low crawl means he was low on the ground and Miller said look at this guy. You think he knows something we don't. The guy is asking like because we're just standing here. He said I have to run lines back here, meaning hoses. He said why don't you run them through 500 homes on Pine Street? You turn around and you left.

Jim : 9:24

Well, shortly thereafter, not long thereafter, I had a 150 radio. It's not a police radio, it's like a walkie-talkie and I heard they're coming out, they're coming out. My first thought was who is this? Because I thought we were the only ones there. And then I heard like a couple shots. Now, prior to that, I don't know how many homes were on fire at the time. I want to say 31 at that point, or 30. I don't know exactly how many, but a lot. And we could feel the heat A couple times before that. The windows would break and you would flinch because you didn't know if it was a shot or not. It was hard to distinguish, but then we realized that that was happening. It was the glass breaking from the heat to distinguish, but then we realized that that was happening. It was the glass breaking from the heat.

Beth: 10:04

So it wasn't gunfire, not at that point.

Jim : 10:06

No. But at a certain point later on, in company with they're coming out, they're coming out. I'm thinking to myself. I recognized a voice with Sergeant Griffiths. I knew his voice and I knew he was in post four, but I didn't know. I thought he had left so I was taken back. He had left, so I was taken back, and then I heard like a pop, pop, pop, and then a pause.

Jim : 10:33

Now that's different because of the repetition and what I'm interpreting as as a window breaker, and I knew it was in front of me. Now when I say front my back's to the west, I'm facing east, facing down the driveway or the alleyway we had taken. We had taken a fence down earlier during the day that ran from the back of the move house 6212 and butted against this wall that ran down there. Okay, on the other side of that wall, move had built or the neighbor next door, I'm not sure which a cinder block wall and the reason I say that. So anybody that's coming out of that house, they can't scale that wall. That was high. So their choices are down the driveway or scale a fence and up and over and then the walkway. They could go down that way if they wanted to, in a walkway that would be east, where they could come down west this way.

Beth: 11:18

Was the move house extended so that if you were, say you were the farthest house down there, like you couldn't go the driveway this way? You could come this way, oh you still, there was still a path, Because we tore the fence down. Oh, but before.

Jim : 11:29

It was a wooden fence. But before we tore that down during the day Once we tried well, about noontime I guess, after we put a charge on the wall that blew the front of the house out, we tried to go back in the house. We couldn't. At that point we tore the fence down and then we left.

Beth: 11:51

So that fence even though we tore it down was still a lot of wood laying on the ground. Was that all the way from the structure, all the way to the back wall, that fence?

Jim : 11:56

you tore down Just about yes.

Beth: 11:57

Okay, so the neighbors could not use this.

Jim : 11:58

No, okay, no, that went all the way across. In fact, during the day when we went down there we were told nobody told us about it, but they told the other guys who didn't tell us gas Our teams were going to pop gas. We never got that word, so we had gas masks with us. Now, during the day when we got down, and after they made the announcement, then all the shooting started. We had to stop and put our gas masks on. So as much as you train, we never trained while being shot at or in a fight.

Jim : 12:29

And then that's when we got in by the fence into 62-23. Our job was to secure the stakeout, secure the floors, so the bomb guys could put a pepper fogger which turns a liquid gas into a vapor gas. You start it up like a lawnmower. It's on a four-foot pipe and at the end of the pipe is a T. The reason the T is we try to penetrate the wall between 62, 23, and 21. And then pump the gas in, leaving the first floor an escape or an avenue of escape for the movement. So anyway, the fence is down and it's burning and there's a lot of smoke.

Jim : 13:07

And then after that I just stood here like this. And then I saw Ramona. If you look down the driveway it was covered with smoke, but then she comes out of the smoke up onto the walkway that would be this walkway that's about to my chest. That went parallel between the houses on Osage and Move, with a three-foot fence over top of it Wrongs. So she comes out and I see her and then she would walk down towards us. So the smoke's down here but not up where she was. So we could see her and I know she had to see us she have her hands up no, well, not at that point.

Jim : 13:48

She would walk down a driveway and she would stop and she would turn around and look back towards move and she would stop foot and then wave at her hand as if to summon other people to come with her, and then she would turn around and walk down. She did that a couple couple times and I interpreted it. When she does that and we're here looking, then you look past her to see if somebody's coming out. They could see she was banging her foot. She was frustrated, wasn't sure.

Jim : 14:15

Now, at a certain point later, I see Bertie come through the fence that we knocked down and he didn't run. He had a pair of shorts on and a tank top shirt barefoot and there was a lot of debris in this driveway here. Now the angle. I don't know how much of an angle it is, but again, the water. Obviously this was the deepest point. So it was. It didn't get up high enough to go over there. I don't think it was pooling. Oh, yeah, it was deep, because, well, I'm getting ahead of myself here. But then he started walking down and, ramona, she stopped. Now she stopped about halfway between this driveway here and the move house, so it would be.

Jim : 15:08

She's a half moves in the middle of the box, so to speak, so she's like a quarter of a block away from me. At one point she reached over the fence and over this wooden wall or cement wall, and tried to lift Bertie up, to pull him up from the driveway up to the walkway. Well, he got one foot up to here and they lost grip and when he fell back he didn't get a chance to put his hands behind him. He landed right on his head. It was like ooh. But where he landed was, there was no water. He landed on the concrete. So at that time he just laid there.

Jim : 15:48

So it's Terci Meller and myself. I gave my shotgun to Tommy. I said here, tommy, take this and go get the kid. He said careful, careful, you're going to be a trap. So that fence that I'm telling you about I jumped over, I think you know, and it was a little further down than I thought. So I didn't take my shotgun, but I had a .357 Magnum on my right hand. So I went up a couple of houses, and every two houses, I think, there's a little outcone. So I would go back up and I'd go down there and I would look back at time. There's a little outcome.

Beth: 16:25

So I would go back up and I'd get down there and I would look back at time. So you were sort of like going one house making sure you're, you would cover go to the next house, correct, as you have your eyes on the on this, on this fence or no, no, I'm on the driveway. I'm on the driveway really hot.

Jim : 16:40

Further up you get it was. Yeah, so that's why, depending where you come from, you describe a driveway and a walkway or a pavement, depending where you. They all have different terminologies. But needless to say, I get up a little bit closer to him so he gets up, but when he gets up actually, when he first got up he looked back east, but then he came. So I was going to start out to get him and Officer Tersey followed me to where I was.

Jim : 17:10

Over here, yeah, so I'm up about, I don't know, one, two, three, four, five, maybe six houses. I had to guess One, two, three, four, five. So houses.

Beth: 17:25

I had to guess One, two, three, four, five.

Jim : 17:27

So Right about here.

Beth: 17:29

Okay, so you're on this side.

Jim : 17:32

I'm in a cove. It separates two houses, okay, in other words, and he's in between Pine and, yeah, these homes are different. They were recessed. You could go into this house here and then that one house over there. Now my gun's out. I switched it to my right hand and I started to holler to Bertie Over here, son, me too, your left hand. Well, I'm right-handed. I pulled it to the left hand because I knew eventually I was going to run out and grab him and I kept going, waving him to come to me. Now, at one time that I started out, mike grabbed me. He said Jim, don't go out there, it's a trap. Now. He didn't say that he knew Michael or Bertie was in Pearl. What happened was Michael saw a MOVE member come out of the back of the house and fire a couple rounds in the early direction and that would be at post four.

Jim : 18:28

And then he turned and fired a couple shots in the westward direction.

Beth: 18:30

I never saw the guy, okay, you never saw him. Never saw him, but Tercey.

Jim : 18:33

Tercey saw.

Beth: 18:35

That was his testimony.

Jim : 18:37

Yeah, and Mike's integrity. If Mike said he saw him, he saw him. I didn't, but I know Mike's a good officer. Tommy Miller saw the guy but didn't see him with a weapon and he saw him like I think he said he was bare chested. I don't want to go into how they testified. I'm going to tell you what I know. But the reason I'm saying that is I don't want people to interpret that Mike stopped me from going out there because, like he wasn't concerned about the kid, he had witnessed something that I didn't know. It's lag time, police terminology the time it takes to see, interpret, identify and decide what course of action is going to take. I'm figuring out. What am I going to do? What's going to happen? So, as he's coming down now, the water's here.

Beth: 19:22

Wherever I'm at, I'm not in the water, but the water's out here.

Jim : 19:24

I'm guessing my distance here because it's distortion. These zones are not the same, so she never. When he laid there I didn't pay any more attention to Ramona. But he got back up and you could tell he was weak. And then he started to walk to where the water is. Now we're almost parallel where the water is.

Jim : 19:43

When he comes down he's walking this way but he's not coming to us. We both hollered, to be honest with you. We wanted him to come to us so we were not exposed. I didn't want to go out there. So now he's coming down and as he's walking his head started getting in front of his body and you could see where he was going to go. That's when I switched my hand from the right to the left. I said mike, I'm getting the kid. He says go ahead and cover. So I ran out and just as he hit the water I grabbed him underneath his left arm and as meller is standing at that, where there's a t and I ain't trying to be melodramatic I'm hoping I'm not going to see a change of expression.

Beth: 20:22

So you're're here, you grab Bertie and now you're facing towards Tom.

Jim : 20:27

Yes, so your back needs to move Correct. Now I'm dragging him and the further down I go, the deeper it gets into the water. So when I drag him I see Tommy. He had an Uzi and he had it at his waist level. He didn't point it and my thought was, if he's bringing it up here, that's not good. So he kept it here. I knew I was okay and prior to going up he would go with his head. I called it warming in and out of the house. So now as I pull him along the water, at a certain point I'm still looking. I just looked down at him, him meaning Bertie, just real quick. And he was actually twisted because now I'm pulling him in the water and he said to me don't shoot me, don't shoot me Twice.

Beth: 21:13

Could he see Tommy's Uzi? I don't know, I don't shoot me, don't shoot me Twice, could he?

Jim : 21:15

see Tommy's Uzi, I don't know. I don't know Because sometimes when I'm twisting him, his head's looking up at me like this Okay, I know it's Because you're and I'm pulling him in the water. He's twisting, he's not. He's not on his feet, he's not horizontal, but he's not vertical. He vertical, he's in between. And then I would look at Tommy and.

Jim : 21:36

I'd look back down at him, I'd look at Tommy and look back down at him. Now, now it's getting harder to pull him because it's deeper. He said don't shoot me, don't shoot me. And then he says my pants are falling down Now. Now his pants are actually coming down from pulling him. He said don't worry about your pants, we're getting out of here. So, as I keep pulling and I'm locked in, now, the closer I get to Tommy, I'm locked on in his face and he's not making a change of expression. Because my interpretation is, like I said previously, if he's bringing his weapon from his waist up to here the point, that's not good. So now that I grabbed him and I'm pulling him, as soon as I make a left-hand turn I'm retracing my steps down the driveway.

Jim : 22:16

So now, once I get down here and I make a turn and I know I'm behind this wall, I know I'm not in the field of fire, I know I'm good. He started at a certain point here I don't know exactly when he said it he started to say I'm hungry, I want something to eat. I'm hungry. Even then people ask me well, how long was that? I don't know. But I thought even there, and you know what, I should have picked them up, but I didn't, I just kept going. And then we ran out on the avenue, out on the Cobbs Creek Parkway. I said I'm hungry, I want something to eat, I'm hungry, I want something to eat.

Jim : 22:50

I still was confused when I went out to Osage I mean Osage and then Cobbs Creek Parkway, it was an inspector. I said inspector, what do I do? So we have our JED, that's Juvenile Aid Division. So I ran up Cobbs Creek Parkway and then there was another JED officer. I just gave him. To him I said take care, son, it's all over. And I ran back here for two reasons One, to get my shotgun and one to go back up because Mike's still here. I ain't going to leave him there. And then Tommy came down and by that time that transformed, there was sparks all over. He said let's get out of here. So we did. Tommy had gotten Ramona.

Beth: 23:30

But then it was another officer.

Jim : 23:31

Washington came up and was she compliant? Yeah, she had enough, I had enough.

Beth: 23:36

She said I had enough.

Jim : 23:37

I had enough To Tommy Well she's saying it Well, maybe to him, because she was looking at him At one time. I heard that and then I wasn't here when it happened, but Tommy told me that when she walked past my shotgun that I had given Tommy it was that fence right there and he says don't even think about it. She says I'm done. She put her hands up. There was no resisting at all on her part.

Beth: 24:00

None, did she look?

Jim : 24:02

scared, like anybody was going to shoot her. She looked like she said what she said I had enough. That's what she looked like. She was wet. She had a wet green top on. She was she, she's I'm done. I mean she, she it was never. No, no, cursing, no, hollering, no screaming, no, nothing. When she said she was done, she was done, so were we. She went out and there was no, there was nothing to it, really, to be honest with you. And then, did anybody wait here for more people to come out? Well, they did, but the transformer had to influence a certain amount of people. So then, what happened is I had brought a change of clothes with me. I was soaked, so I went out in a truck and I changed my clothes. I got out of my while I was in the truck. Now I realized what had taken place. So I struggled a little bit, but I inadvertently had to go up to the Geographic Center which was like our talk.

Jim : 24:56

Manson, yeah right. And when I went up there, there was other officers up there and I thought the reason I say 31,. They had the TV on. They said there's now 31 homes on fire. I thought, well, you know, who do you guys get? I thought other guys were going to. You know, I thought they all came in. You get guys who didn't specifically post war, and those guys in there, that's Trudell Barriani, they're good guys. Griffiths, they're good guys, they really are. I know, as an end result here everybody's going to say you know there's some good guys here, trust me, but they didn't get anybody.

Beth: 25:35

And the fire department was not going in.

Jim : 25:38

Well, I don't know what the fire department was doing. To be honest with you, I mean, I don't know what the orders were. To be perfectly honest with you, we followed our orders. But when I saw the kid, my first thought was Jesus Christ, the kid. Because we were told that the kids won't be in there. Civil Affairs is going to scoff them up. So that in and of itself was a shock, but still, at the same time, I'm not rationalizing, thinking a lot about that statement at that point, because I don't know what's going on. But the kid did strike me. Oh my God, it's a kid.

Beth: 26:10

So you had no idea there were kids in there at that point None. In the Boyette book. It talks about hearing through a pipe that they could hear kids' voices. And someone said let's put gas down there or let's put an explosive down there. And Frank Powell said what are you kidding me? Yeah, there's kids in there. Did that happen?

Jim : 26:29

Yeah, but what happened was that fence that I told you about. We came down when we were tearing it down. After a while everybody's going around. I a couple things. I remember specifically that I saw an empty kerosene can, like a five gallon kerosene can. It was empty, but the guy started kicking stuff down, tommy and I tapped tommy tapped me on my shoulder. We moved back a little bit. We thought that the other guys were being a little bit too cavalier about what they were doing, so we backed out because there was a bunker, a rear bunker. It wasn't as big and ominous as the front bunker, but there was a bumper in the back. So what we did? We moved back over closer to Pine Street so we could get a view of that little bunker. And that's when I heard Frank say what are you crazy? I'll make a bomb.

Beth: 27:13

But you didn't hear the conversation, that they were kids. They could hear kids' voices.

Jim : 27:17

No, but coming out. I remember Delissy saying do you hear him in there? I said hear who. He said move. You could hear him move.

Beth: 27:28

There was no mention of kids.

Jim : 27:29

And who said that to you? That was Larry Delissy.

Beth: 27:33

So he might have heard kids.

Jim : 27:34

He didn't say anything to me. He said move. No, he said move people.

Beth: 27:38

Move people.

Jim : 27:42

But I did hear somebody said something to Frank and Frank says what are you crazy? That'll be a bomb of some sort or whatever. Is that ironic?

Beth: 27:50

Yeah.

Jim : 27:52

So we left. Somebody said something about putting a weapon. You know, you guys got to get out of there. Somebody put a weapon out of one of the windows or whatever. No, it's not like. We ran out. We walked out and we thought, you know, for lack of describing it, that's halftime. We didn't know what else was going to happen. In fact, we got Tommy, my partner and I got in a truck and we drove up to a Wendy's up on City Line Avenue. We got something to eat. We brought it back. Tommy's rationality was let them start without us if they're going to do it. We were up for a long time, like 24 hours, over 25. By the time everything was over. So we were spent. What did you think was halftime? Well, when we were leaving After, we couldn't get back into the house. When we were leaving After, we couldn't get back into the house. After we tore the fence down.

Jim : 28:37

Yeah, and we were standing there. There was no, we were told to Somebody's pointing a weapon. One of the posts said something about somebody's pointing a weapon at one of the windows of their bunker or whatever, and we said get out of here. It wasn't like, oh my God, we just like, we retreated, this is way before you rescued. Birdie. Oh, this is.

Beth: 28:54

Morning or something.

Jim : 28:55

Yeah, and then we went and got something to eat. We came back, we took all of our clothes off on the tree line out on Cobb Street Parkway to dry up, because it was really hot that day, and we thought, you know, they're going to bring night guides to form a perimeter of some sort. Some negotiator this is me now, so we'll go in and try to talk, because the front of the house was blown out and I'm thinking to myself if I'm in there. You know, the difference is I think they were a little bit more willing to die for the cause than I was for mine did a negotiator come in?

Jim : 29:28

I didn't read about it they had negotiators, they let it get too far because they built that bunker roof the pepper farmer that I told you through. When Tommy tried to push it through the wall, he had enough of it to go through the party wall and then it hit something he couldn't get it all the way in. So now in my mind, as a result of that, I'm picturing a house inside of a house. Inside of a house they had like a maze. This is what I'm figuring. I can't prove it that I think, if it was all done and over with, their intent was to get us to come in that house and then juice it with fire or whatever and we're trapped and then they come in. Their theory is always to counter. They're not offensive, they're defensive. That's what they do in everything. Their motive at operating is to defend.

Beth: 30:16

I mean, and those houses were so narrow. I mean the replacement houses are so narrow, so if you're building walls within walls, it's getting tinier and tinier, and yet there's at least a dozen people living in there.

Jim : 30:32

And dogs. Well, I'll speak for myself. I underestimated them to a certain extent, but I also underestimated in 1978. You know, when I'm told that they put a device in the wall that I was with and they blew the front of the house out, you think we're out of here. Listen, I have a problem with the kids. The adults chose to do that. The kids didn't have a problem with the kids. The adults chose to do that. The kids didn't have a choice. And for that kid to say what he said to me under those circumstances at the end, he wanted something to eat. Just think about that. All that kid went through, he wanted something to eat. I feel bad. I feel bad for them. I'm here to let the neighbors know that everything that they went through and still go through that I'm really sorry. What happened? They lost everything. Here we are. How many years later? Look, we're still working on it. It's a shame.

Beth: 31:32

Yeah, have you seen one of the finished ones?

Jim : 31:34

No, very modern and Well, I heard that they weren't structurally sound and they had a lot of problems.

Beth: 31:42

Well, they went in. I guess part of the renovation for you know, after the renovation, was to go in and deal with the back of the house, that there wasn't a lot of that. They were at it Improve the structure and the foundation and then go in and renovate see, I I told you at a previous time that we had spoken that half time.

Jim : 32:03

When I told you we left here, I went out to uh, cobs creek parkway and I'm walking over to the tree line and there was a woman that lived on pine street, I mean cobs creek parkway, right here, and she hollered over officer, officer and I heard her and I ignored her because I don't know what she was going to complain about or whatever.

Jim : 32:21

But to be honest with you, I didn't want to hear it at that particular time and she rose her voice again and said officer, I turned around and I said loudly and rudely what she asked me, if I was married, rudely, why she asked me if I was married and I said yeah. She said do you have kids? I said yeah. She said get in here and call your family.

Beth: 32:40

So you went in her house and called your family. I did.

Jim : 32:42

I actually did. I wiped my feet off before I went in. These are the people that lost everything. These were good people. She didn't evacuate. No, she didn't. I think it was. I was just looking because I remember a porch we walked over when I say the parkway, but we were up for a little bit on Cod's Creek, more towards behind.

Beth: 32:59

So this block also burned down?

Jim : 33:02

No, they didn't. They're the original houses. This see how small this is here. Yeah, this is my second time back here and it looked like it got smaller. I don't remember it this small. And it looked like it got smaller. I don't remember it this small.

Beth: 33:16

I mean, even the electrical wire is on, like I mean that hole itself has got to be old.

Jim : 33:22

That was probably here when we were here. Look at it. So that didn't burn. No, I don't know. No, these houses didn't burn. You can tell they're the original houses.

Beth: 33:28

They're the originals.

Jim : 33:36

So the little tucks in between them is kind of what was over here, correct? Okay, take into consideration. In the morning here too, and I'm not I'm not trying to justify, but ramona's saying, after the police commissioner made her announcement, come on in, she got vulgar. You know all the other rhetoric that they normally do we're going to burn to bring the you'd have to play that back but we're going to bring the city to the east. We're going to burn this block down. So you're never saying we're going to do it. They did. You say they did, but the block burned down. She said it early in the morning, I believe moved, juiced the fire with gas in there. Birdie even said they had drums in there with gas in his statement.

Beth: 34:16

Like they were positioned in different places.

Jim : 34:19

That's what I'm envisioning. I can't prove it, but logically I would say that's probably what they did. They don't need all that gas Well and they didn't have electricity.

Jim : 34:30

so if they were, Well, I don't know what they did or didn't have. Well, I do know what they had. They had a well-fortified house. They had steel plates and air and everything. Did I know it at the time? No, but I'm looking at, when they started knocking houses down later, what they found there was no police gunfire in the back of that alley. None, no police return fire. During the move, commission Mr Linton asked me after 527 or whatever, did you fire your weapon? My response was I never fired my weapon the entire day and I was just. That's the other part that hurts. I was as close as anybody. You good.

Beth: 35:12

That was it, aside from a little small talk while I un-miked him. Jim Berghaier voluntarily appeared in front of the MOVE Commission in October of 1985. And after he left the Philadelphia Police Force, he spoke with a few reporters and documentarians people like me over the years who are still asking questions. This conversation happened 34 years after May 13th. Today marks 40 years. It's one account from someone who was there doing his job as a police officer on a day that changed this block and changed the city's history. Eleven people died, including five children. Sixty homes were destroyed.

Beth: 35:55

I've added some images and newspaper clippings to our website if you want more context for this episode and for the larger research into what happened on May 13, 1985. In the show notes, I've also included a few links to reporting and resources that I have found useful and I think you might as well. As always, if you have any information, if you have any comments, if you have any comments, if you have any questions, please reach out on social media or email me. Murder at ryan's run at gmailcom. Please rate, review and share the podcast so that people can find us, and thanks for listening. I appreciate it. This episode was written, edited, hosted and researched by me, beth McNamara and additional archival research by Robert Helms.