When the unimaginable happens, and we lose those dearest to us, the journey through grief can be a solitary and complex path. It's a raw and vulnerable experience that Judy Lipson knows all too well, having lost both her sisters, Margie and Jane. She joins us today to share her poignant story of how suppressed sorrow can emerge after many years, and the profound strength she discovered in finally embracing her grief. Through her compelling narrative, Judy opens up about her transformative journey — from the depths of despair to finding solace and empowerment in creating the Celebration of Sisters ice skating fundraiser and authoring a book that delves into the heart of her grieving process.
As we traverse the terrain of sorrow, the episode sheds light on the often overlooked and unique agony of sibling loss. Judy's testament to the power of coping strategies — like orchestrating a heartfelt memorial event and pouring emotions into writing — offers insight into the healing that can be found in honoring loved ones. We also discuss the significance of self-care, the necessity of allowing oneself to grieve in individual ways, and the solace that can be found in shared experiences through support groups or therapy. Our conversation serves as an open invitation to all who are navigating the murky waters of loss, reminding us that we are not alone, offering comfort, and underscoring the importance of community and mutual support in times of profound sadness.
When the unimaginable happens, and we lose those dearest to us, the journey through grief can be a solitary and complex path. It's a raw and vulnerable experience that Judy Lipson knows all too well, having lost both her sisters, Margie and Jane. She joins us today to share her poignant story of how suppressed sorrow can emerge after many years, and the profound strength she discovered in finally embracing her grief. Through her compelling narrative, Judy opens up about her transformative journey — from the depths of despair to finding solace and empowerment in creating the Celebration of Sisters ice skating fundraiser and authoring a book that delves into the heart of her grieving process.
As we traverse the terrain of sorrow, the episode sheds light on the often overlooked and unique agony of sibling loss. Judy's testament to the power of coping strategies — like orchestrating a heartfelt memorial event and pouring emotions into writing — offers insight into the healing that can be found in honoring loved ones. We also discuss the significance of self-care, the necessity of allowing oneself to grieve in individual ways, and the solace that can be found in shared experiences through support groups or therapy. Our conversation serves as an open invitation to all who are navigating the murky waters of loss, reminding us that we are not alone, offering comfort, and underscoring the importance of community and mutual support in times of profound sadness.
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to, as I Live in Grief, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are you.
Speaker 2:
Hi everyone. Welcome back again to yet another episode of as I Live in Grief. I hope your week's been pretty good. I've had a really great week. Of course, time of year for recording up here right now is right around the holidays. We've just celebrated Christmas and I had a wonderful one with family. There certainly were memories of those not here any longer, and we shared those and laughed over those as well. That has kind of become a tradition for us. My guest today is Judy Lipson. You're going to love her. She's got a wonderful story and a great book that I've already told her is in my pile of next to read. So, judy, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:
Well, Kathy, thank you for having me and for all that you do and your wonderful podcast.
Speaker 3:
I introduced myself by saying Judy and the middle of three, and sadly, I lost both my sisters, margie and Jane, and that's really who I am, and it took me a long time to be able to say that.
Speaker 3:
I lost my sister Jane in 1981, at age 22, in an automobile accident, and nine years later I lost my sister Margie at age 35, after a 20 year battle with anorexia and bulimia, and for 30 years I suppressed the grief. I was busy taking care of family and kept myself on a treadmill of life, and in 2011, I finally took the journey to grief, which, after 30 years, was the most challenging thing I've ever done, but yet the most empowering thing I've ever did and probably the best gift I ever gave to myself. That same year, I started Celebration of Sisters, which is the title of my book as well it's never too late to agree and founded. It was an ice skating fundraiser, because the three of us skated and my sisters were fun to benefit Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, and it was a great ride. We did it for over a decade, and so now I'm hoping to give back and share and help other siblings in their grief and know that they're not alone.
Speaker 2:
Well, I am so honored to have you here today, and your topic when you mentioned the phrase it's not too late to grieve is something that I'm experiencing myself today, even because the first couple losses in my life were at quite a young age, and I lost my father just before I was to be married. And then I lost an infant son and found I suppressed the grief too. I think that was the sign of the times. There weren't bereavement groups, people didn't go to therapists, unless you kind of went there in a straight jacket, I think People health just wasn't talked about, things like that. So we just moved on because that's what was expected of us.
Speaker 2:
We either went back to work, went back to school, whatever our daily life was, we just kept on, keeping on. And now, years later, decades later, it came to me that I never really grieved the loss of my infant son. I kind of employed the theory that if I never talked about him, it never happened. And, of course, now I find myself going through that process, like you did with yours. At what point and how did you know you were ready to start grieving? What prompted you to know or recognize that you hadn't grieved your sisters?
Speaker 3:
My father was dying and he was going through a neurological illness and I knew it was going to be a tremendous loss in my life and I'd go to therapists off and on and my most recent one said you really need to deal with the loss of your sisters. Also, I had a best friend who was dying as well. So those were two people that I spoke to every single day and I knew that it just felt like it was time. I just it was hovering and hovering and I just needed to do the work, and his loss kind of forced me into finally grieving for my sisters. And when he died I went to a support group for adults who had lost their parents and it was then that I began to write just articles and then the floodgates opened up and I really did the work I needed to do on grief yeah, Now when you say the work you needed to do, I know you were journaling and writing.
Speaker 2:
What other work did you do? I can put air quotes. Nobody will see them.
Speaker 3:
But I went into a complicated grief study for five months which was very intense and took me in a very tough, tough place to be. But I felt that actually I had went to a group, compassion of Friends, which I had gone to when Margie died, my first. My second sister died and I wasn't ready. And the second time I went and I met other adults and I did, I felt like it was OK, I could handle it at that point and one of the guys in the group had gone through a complicated grief study and we talked about it. So talking to him I felt you know what this sounds like, something I should do too, and I'm so glad I did, because the focus was not only on your grieving but also on restoration.
Speaker 3:
What in your life makes you happy, what's your focus? And the skating was also what kept me going and I didn't realize the circle of that had connected me to my sisters. So I had the two to take that time for yourself. So that was very, very intense. And then afterwards I followed up with a therapist to kind of keep me on track with the work that I continue to do, and it's still a work in progress today.
Speaker 2:
Right, right. So this study, and sometimes other groups, they give you directed exercises or things to think about and consider correct, correct and it's also because I had suppressed the grief and a lot of what haunted me was memories that were lost.
Speaker 3:
So there were some exercises that took me back and also realizing that that's not the most important thing and, for example, I don't know why I visiting the cemetery was something that I couldn't do, which is some people can, some people can't do, and everybody's grief journey is different. There's no right, there's no wrong and we all know that, but I had made it and surmounted it into such a horrific place to go. So as part of the process, we talked about it and part of one of the building blocks for me to overcome was going and I went and it was actually very peaceful.
Speaker 3:
I haven't gone since, but that's my choice, and it was a cloudy day and I couldn't pull up the urn to get the flowers in one of my sisters. And as I pulled out the urn and put the flowers in, the clouds disappeared and the sun came out.
Speaker 2:
Oh my.
Speaker 3:
And it was just. I sat down on the grass and I just I was like, wow, they're looking over me. I mean, it was just. I was glad that I had that. I had that experience. So it kind of I needed to power through that road block. It was another step in the grief.
Speaker 2:
Right, and that needed to do. That for me, is a perfect example of being open to signs. Had you not been aware enough to notice that when you got the urn up and put the flowers in it, the sun came out? Had you not been open to realize that that would have been a major event that you couldn't enjoy to this day? You know so. I'm constantly telling people be open those signs. You're there, but you have to be open for them and catch them. Now you mentioned something else. When you were talking about grieving your sisters I think it was for Margie you said you weren't ready. How did you know you weren't ready? What did you mean by that?
Speaker 3:
So after Margie died, I had my parents had gone to the Compassion Friends. You know they had an adult group and then there was a sibling group. So I walked into this group and you know the siblings were like put in the basement with like metal chairs around in a group and at 35, I was the oldest, I think there was one other girl maybe close to my age, so there were maybe 10 people in their group and they were all ages, some were 14 years old, and everybody went around and told you know how they lost their sibling and I, just as everybody told this story, I just could feel myself tuning out. I just I couldn't handle it in thought to myself, what do I have in common with a 14 year old? Which I have come to realize no matter what age you lose a sibling, anybody who loses a sibling we're all connected. It doesn't matter whether that sibling's in utero at birth, three, 20, 40, 90, we're all connected.
Speaker 3:
And I never went back and I wasn't ready. And you know they were lovely people but I wasn't ready. And then, you know, right before the complicated grief study, I went back again and I did meet some of the other people one on one. I'm an introvert, I don't do well in groups, I need to be one on one. But if I had met, you know, and through the group the second time, you know, the group was okay but I met people that I could meet one on one.
Speaker 3:
And that was the beauty of it, yeah.
Speaker 2:
So do you think it was as much timing for you personally and emotionally, as well, as just not the right group?
Speaker 3:
as well. I think it was timing. I just couldn't. I was not, it was not aware I was grieving, I just it was too much. Margie had just died, so I'd lost both my sisters. I didn't know where I was or whether I was coming and I just, you know, I had my parents to worry about, two children to take care of alone. As a single parent, it was just I just couldn't face that this was all real and happening.
Speaker 2:
Right, right, there's another interesting perspective that you just brought up. You're great at helping me segue this work. Well, you were. Not only did you lose your sister, but you were a single mom. Now your kids? Were they old enough to realize and understand that their aunt had died? No, no, they were too young. Okay, but you had your parents, who now have lost a second daughter. You're grieving yourself, yet I know you tried to help others in your family that were grieving, even though your kids were too young. You didn't want to. You know we never want to fall apart in front of our kids or totally lose control, so how did you find the ability to maintain and to do what you needed to do in your family?
Speaker 3:
Like you say, you stiff it and you move on. I just kept going and I didn't. I took care of everybody else but myself. I mean, I just and I felt like I had to be the one to kind of, you know, be the daughter for three, bring the sunshine to my parents. And you know, I was a single mother with two kids working, and I didn't have time. Grief wasn't on the docket for me, I just didn't have the time.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, did a period of time go by that you did not skate?
Speaker 3:
Yes, I didn't skate when my girls were little, so there was a time after my sister's died that I didn't skate.
Speaker 2:
Okay, and so when you went back on the ice for the first time after losing your sisters, was that difficult?
Speaker 3:
I skated before I started to do the grief work, okay. So when my girls could skate, I skated. So I had skated on and off throughout my life, so there had been periods when I hadn't skated, but I never realized somehow that the skating was the piece that sort of always connected me to them and it was the kind of brought me full circle back to them. I never realized it and it was always the place that I felt happy and you know, people say, well, isn't that hard for you, but that was our happiest memories and we were always together in something we always did together. So I think that's. It just seemed like that's, that's my place and I feel them with me when I'm on the ice.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and what gave you the idea to host a fundraiser in their memory for the hospital? How did that come about?
Speaker 3:
Well, philanthropy has always been the core of our family, you know, since I was a little girl and I wanted to do something. Their birthdays are in November and Jane died the day in the middle of their birthdays. So the six, seven, eight and the anniversaries, the building up of the anniversaries I'm sure a lot of people experience, the anxiety up to those states was horrific. So I wanted to do it around that time and I wanted to do a fundraiser of some sort and my sisters were fine and I wanted to do something different and at first I thought I was going to maybe do a dance party, because they both love to dance and like music and all of that, and we all skated. So I came up with skated. The hospital treated Margie on a couple of occasions. It was very good, so it just seemed like the natural opportunity and we had a fun in their memory there. So I just felt that that was the, you know, best place for us you know, fundraise and honor them, so that's why we did it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, now this sounds like a huge undertaking. I work with several nonprofits in the area and I help them plan their fundraisers and everything, but I'm sure it was nothing to the scale of your celebration. So the very first one now is it correct that you have finished a cycle of these? Are you going to have more of them or are you done? I may?
Speaker 3:
bring it back. I'm 67. I may bring it back for my seven years. It started out very small and it mushrooms, so it basically I started planning the day after.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, prior and the last six months it was quite a bit a lot of work. I loved every minute of it. I hope you had some help?
Speaker 2:
at least yes, but you know a lot of it fell on me, but it was.
Speaker 3:
It was a beautiful event and it mushrooms into quite a big event and we raised, you know, nice $80,000. Oh, that's excellent.
Speaker 2:
That's excellent, and when you took to the ice during that event, were you sisters with you?
Speaker 3:
Yes, I could feel them sort of on my shoulder saying you've got this. And then I can also kind of in awe that the shy middle sister is out there skating in front of a crowd, Right, right, Especially kind of giggling, like you know doing this.
Speaker 2:
I love that image of them giggling and perched on your shoulders. That's great. One other thing I want to ask you, going back to this phrase again, if it's not too late to grieve Now. I know because it's happening to me. I know there are other people too Perhaps it's generational going back to the fact that there was no support, there weren't any options. You just, you know, sucked it up and moved on. So people that are now realizing that they have lost some people in their life decades ago. What hints or tips might you have for them to recognize that what they're going through could be grief that they've suppressed?
Speaker 3:
Well, I think that if everybody's journey is different and there's no recipe for grief, and I think that if you really get these bouts of exhaustion or unclarity, or if you find yourself sobbing or questioning things in your life, that grief doesn't define us, but it's always part of us and I think it never leaves us. And everybody's journey is different and you can't compare yourself to anybody else.
Speaker 2:
Right. So it might be time to bring those memories out and really start focusing on that person or persons that you have lost, and thrive in those memories and see if what you're experiencing couldn't be grief, because you don't have to take any pills to get through grief, you just have to kind of do the work. I think, and part of that is recognizing the symptoms for what they are. So you opted to write a book. Do you have another book in the works, I do, I'm actually writing fiction.
Speaker 3:
Okay, I was going to write a book about a sister with a mental illness and I didn't have the bandwidth, so I'm writing a fiction book.
Speaker 2:
Great, great. I like that. And you also created a legacy in your fundraiser for the hospital celebration of sisters. What else have you got going?
Speaker 3:
Well, I'm a grandmother of three under four, so I hope to help others, leave for them and my daughters and son-in-laws, my family, that I also want to help and speak and help other siblings who are, and let them know that they're not alone in their grief, right, right, and know that it's never too late to grieve and that they're not alone. I think that's the most important thing.
Speaker 2:
Okay, and as you speak to and support other people that have lost siblings, are you able to make any characteristics that are specific to sibling grief that might differ from parental?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I think siblings are often called the disenfranchised, the forgotten mourners, because I think we tend to unfortunately have or taken a back seat because we're so busy worrying about and taking care of everybody else and aren't recognized that our grief is important too, and I think that we're so busy taking care of our parents or siblings or other family members, other siblings or children or whatever, that our grief doesn't get kind of put in abeyance. And the sibling bond is one that's very strong and very unique, no matter what the relationship is, because that's the person you think you're going to know your whole history and you think you're going to live your whole life with.
Speaker 2:
Right, and they probably know some secrets that your parents don't know too, Right. So what can you suggest for someone who has lost their sibling? To help them, maybe, take better care of themselves while they're grieving?
Speaker 3:
Well, I think it's very important that, no matter what you try to take care of yourself, whatever that small thing is for you, whether you go for a walk or you write in a journal or you whatever is important to you is you try to take that piece for yourself and also reach out to another sibling and have somebody else to share that journey with you.
Speaker 2:
And do you advocate grief groups, grief support groups, or do you think individual therapy might be better?
Speaker 3:
It totally depends on the individual. I now am part of a, the Compassion Friends Sibling Book Club, because that's where what works for me and I've met some wonderful people that I talk to one-on-one. It really depends on the individual. I think groups are wonderful. There's a lot of groups. There's Facebook groups. There's a lot of organizations. Whether you want to write, whether you want to join a group, it's like that's not a cookie cutter. It depends on the individual. But groups can be, you know, extremely helpful. There's a lot on Zoom now there's Facebook groups. There's a lot of support that there wasn't when. You know I lost, especially Jane in 1981. So I think the individual, but the most important thing is that you know that you're not alone and that you have people out there.
Speaker 3:
That's the most important.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely. And now this Compassion Friends Book Group. Do they read books? Tell me about that.
Speaker 3:
So we read a book once a month and then we meet and we talk about it and you can attend, whether you've read the book or you haven't read the book, and it's just. You know, I'm an avid reader, so it just it's my landing place and it's just been wonderful. We read all you know fiction, memoir, nonfiction, so it's a great book. That sounds great.
Speaker 2:
I love book groups. I should seek that one out. Maybe you'll give me the info on that one.
Speaker 3:
I'll send you the information.
Speaker 2:
That's great, that would be great. Okay, Let me think here for a minute Now. Compassionate Friends is the actual name of a type of support group. It's a specific group right.
Speaker 3:
The Compassionate Friends has a sibling group. Oak Foundation has a sibling group. Bereave Parents USA has a sibling group. Those are all groups that have organizations that have sibling support groups.
Speaker 2:
And how does one find those groups?
Speaker 3:
You can look them up online and they'll direct you. They have information Compassionate Friends and man and Bereave Sibling, both have well. Compassionate Friends has a Facebook group but both Bereave Parents and Compassionate Friends have meetings on Zoom and COPE is out of New York and they have in-person groups.
Speaker 2:
Okay, yeah, those meetings on Zoom, especially since COVID, have gotten to be quite the thing, but it's good because it makes it possible for people to attend and connect with people that are so geographically distant. Even and what that does is it really lets you know that you're not alone.
Speaker 2:
That there are people all around the world that are grieving and looking for some support here and there. That's great. Okay, time, I fear, is winding down a bit, but I want to do again for you what I do with every guest. I'm going to turn the microphone over to you, judy, and let you speak directly to our guests, with now be asking questions and directing conversation. So this is your turn. Go right ahead.
Speaker 3:
I would just thank you for having me and I would just say that everybody's grief journey is their own, and take time to honor yourself and honor your lost loved one in whatever way, shape or form that works for you. There's a lot of resources out there and just know that you're not alone, and that's the most important message I think I can portray to you today.
Speaker 2:
That sounds great and it's a great message. As always, judy's information will be part of the podcast notes. I encourage you to reach out to her if you have any questions or if you just want to say hey, I lost a sibling too, because I know she'd probably love to hear from you Of all my losses. I have not yet, thankfully, experienced sibling loss. I have one brother and I have already told him that he has to hang around a long time because I don't want to add that one to my list of grief types. He and I are very, very close and I know that his loss will be devastating, especially since both our parents are going now as well. Anyway, it is time, I fear, to wrap up and say so long. I want to remind everyone to take care of themselves, regardless of the type of grief you're experiencing, regardless of how long it's been and, as Judy says, it's not too late.
Speaker 2:
You can have these symptoms of grief. You can go through grief decades. I'm proof positive, and so is Judy. After you've experienced a loss, it just all of a sudden.
Speaker 2:
Life has a way of kind of turning things around and at times it will bring you challenges. And boy is grief a challenge. It will bring you challenges so that you can go through some changes and transformations in your life. That's what grief has done for me. Had I grieved decades ago, who knows what would have happened, but I truly believe that life meant for me to hang on to it all those years.
Speaker 2:
And now, while I'm meeting such wonderful people and making connections around the world with others that are grieving, this is what was intended for me and my grief has brought me to this point. So I embrace my grief. I will grieve till the day I die. It's been a lifelong struggle, but I'm not afraid of it anymore. It helps me, it has changed me and again, I embrace my grief. So, lest I ramble and I can do that so easily, y'all know but take care of yourselves, stay well, support others, be kind to others you don't know what they're suffering and please, please, please, come back again for another episode, as we all continue to live in grief.
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much for listening with us today. Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes? Please email us at info at asylevangreavecom and let us know. We hope you will find a moment to leave a review, send an email and share with others. Join us next time as we continue to live in grief together.