As I Live and Grieve®
It’s time for grief to come out of the basement, or wherever we have stuffed it to avoid talking about it. When you suffer a loss you need support, comfort, and a safe place to heal. What you are experiencing is painful but normal, unique but similar, surreal but very, very real. As grief advocates we understand and want to provide support, knowledge and comfort as you continue to live and grieve. Host, Kathy Gleason; Producer, Kelly Keck. www.asiliveandgrieve.com
As I Live and Grieve®
Never the Same Again
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Have you ever wondered why some losses hit harder than others, and how we can truly process the grief that follows? Join us as we explore profound questions with Dr. Natasha Trujillo, a counseling and sports psychologist, who shares her unique insights into the presence of grief in our lives. Dr. Trujillo discusses her professional and personal journey, emphasizing the importance of integrating grief rather than moving past it. We discuss the differences between grief and mourning. We examine the crucial role of social support and societal expectations in the grieving process. The conversation also offers insight into the power of connection, highlighting the importance of finding a supportive person to talk to when grieving.
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To Reach Dr. Trujillo:
Website: npttherapy.com
Email: dr.trujillo@npttherapy.com
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Credits:
Music by Kevin MacLeod
Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Navigating Grief and Moving Forward
Speaker 1Welcome to as I Live and Grieve , a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is . We're glad you joined us today . We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us . We created this podcast to provide you with comfort , knowledge and support . We are grief advocates , not professionals , not licensed therapists . We are you .
Speaker 2Hi everyone , welcome back again to as I Live and Grieve . Oh , isn't it true ? As I live and grieve , I grieve all the time . I grieve the major losses in my life , but certainly I grieve other aspects , other losses in my life . Some of them can be very , very simple ones . Maybe I didn't get as much money in my paycheck as I thought . Maybe I didn't get as much money in my paycheck as I thought . Maybe I didn't get that great price because I missed the sale . Okay , that one sounds rather petty , I admit , but it's still a loss . So we're going to talk more about that today , and with me I have a wonderful guest You're going to love . Her With me is Natasha Trujillo , phd . So she is , by all , rights .
Speaker 3Dr Trujillo , I welcome you . Thanks so much for joining me today . Thank you so much for having me . I'm super excited to be here .
Speaker 2Absolutely . And let's just get started , and I do like to start out by asking my guests to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself , who is Dr Trujillo .
Speaker 3Yeah , thanks so much . So I am a counseling and sports psychologist by trade . I've worked in all sorts of different settings . I did about five years in college athletic , and then I worked at an eating disorder facility where I built a program for elite athletes with eating disorders . And now I've been in private practice for a little over two years now full time . So I've kind of bounced around in that way . Clinically , grief and loss is my very favorite specialty . I do focus on some other things too eating disorders , trauma , anxiety and depressive disorders , perfectionism , performance psychology , working primarily with athletes . But grief and loss is very near and dear to my heart . It really is kind of the foundation of how I've built my career . My dissertation was on it . I was on a research team that was grief and loss focused , and so it really does feel like one of the biggest parts of what brought me to the field and what maintains my passion and my interest for doing what I do . Interesting .
Speaker 2Now there are many people out there , I'm sure , that are thinking , knowing how they feel in their grief . For example , how can someone become almost fascinated with that topic , such that they want to spend their career , most hours of their waking day , doing something about it ? How do you not wear ?
Speaker 3yourself out .
Speaker 3Yes , yeah , I wrote a whole book about it .
Speaker 3There you go , yes , well , you know , I think grief is ever present and it really is everywhere , right , when we really look around every life event , whether it's desirable , whether it's undesirable , there are both gains and losses .
Speaker 3And so I think , with something that is so universal and so common and , like I said , it's just ever present , it's kind of everywhere and so common , and , like I said , it's just ever present , it's kind of everywhere , it just makes sense because it's our lived experience . That's what we do , and so I wanted to I feel like , even if I wanted to , I couldn't get away from it , because that's where it is and I just happen to also be fascinated by it and really want to provide and create a space for the people that I work with to be able to recognize grief for grief , talk about grief as grief and get some support right , not feel like they have to be so stigmatized or pigeonholed into grieving a certain way or not grieving at all if it doesn't feel appropriate or they don't feel like it's a big enough thing to search for Right .
Speaker 2So I'm going to kind of twist my words around , if you'll allow , and you can correct me when I'm finished . It's not so much that you are so fascinated with grief , it's the fact that , despite grief , we can continue , we can have a better life , we can transform , we can redefine ourselves , we can get past that thick grief that really stops so many people in their track . Would you say that's fair .
Speaker 3Yeah , it's interesting because I think about this idea of getting past it right or moving on from it , and I don't know that we do that . I feel that we figure out how to integrate , I agree , and move forward . And then that's the fascinating part to me , right , I think about some people , or even myself , right , when I've suffered really significant losses or when I've seen other people do it , I know that I always tend to think to myself at some point , like how do you come back from that ? How are they still going ? How do you get up and go to work ? How do you ? How do you move on or move forward Sorry , you don't move on in some cases .
Speaker 2And so I think that it's so from your own experience , then , can you give us an example or examples of some of the areas that you have grieved , are grieving , that you have managed to continue to move forward despite that ?
Speaker 3Yeah , absolutely . And this kind of goes back to this idea of integration , right , because I don't know that I'm ever in a place where I've completely found closure or shut a door with some of these things . They continue to follow me around and I figure out how to kind of morph or change shape with them or around them . So my head first goes when you ask that question . I first go to my former identity as an athlete . I guess I still identify to a certain extent as an athlete , but I grew up playing sports and that was a huge part of my identity , gosh for the most formative years of my life . And I remember when I decided to retire from basketball and I was done playing . I just had such a hard time figuring out who I was and what I liked and how I would spend time and what made me feel worthy and accomplished . And I still grieve that piece right Every March Madness , for example , sure , or at the beginning of every conference season , or gosh , even going to live games . Sometimes I can still get that sensation where it's like man , where's my jersey , where are my shoes at ? I don't think that will ever go away . So that's a huge component for sure .
Speaker 3Perfectionism kind of a strange piece , but I wrote a whole chapter on that , I think . When you are always striving to be perfect , that's not attainable . And so you grieve constantly , yes , yes , but that idea or that belief that you can achieve that in some ways I grieve that I no longer believe that , because it's nice to feel like man if I just keep going , if I just keep pushing , I'm going to reach perfection , I'm going to get there , and knowing that that simply isn't true . There's a grief process in that , as well , as you know , every time you come up short or fail , there's a grief process in that . But there are some pieces to that , I guess , just blind striving that I do miss at times , oddly enough .
Speaker 2Now did you actually kind of say that you're , in some ways , you're grieving not grieving ? Yeah , that's really curious . Grieving not grieving , that's really curious .
Speaker 3And again it comes back to this gains and losses . Right , there's always both sides that are present . And the duality . Again going back to what fascinates me , the duality of life and knowing that we have to live in this consistent state of both , and even when the both and can be very conflicting , fascinates me , because how do you wrap your head around that ? That's confusing , right , right right .
Speaker 2So you have this book and the title of it , and she Was Never the Same Again . Tell us about the title . I'm a writer too , and I'm fascinated with where titles come from . So tell us about the title .
Speaker 3Yes , so about two to three years ago , within a span of about six months , I had two of the most significant losses that I had ever gone through , will ever go through . And as a result of that gosh it was probably like two or three o'clock in the morning I knew what the book was going to be called really before I started writing . I knew what the Lost Hittons was going to be and I knew what the title was . And it was probably three or four in the morning and I was kind of thinking about myself and I was thinking about how much I had changed and how , in some ways , I wasn't even recognizable . And I just said to him , I was kind of looking outside of myself and thinking how those who are closest to me would were talking about me to other , to each other , and that phrase just kind of came to me , right , and she was never the same again and she was was me .
Speaker 3In that course . I of course expanded that and I was like , yeah , but that's true for all of us . Once we have significant loss or significant success , it's both . We don't return to our former selves . And so it just struck me and that was it .
Speaker 2Yeah , I knew . Yeah , we don't return to our former selves . Yet that is I know . For many , many of the people I deal with and I speak with directly , who have lost someone by death , that's what they want the most . They want to go back to being that person that they were . So what , what might you say to them ? We know it can't happen .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , but the want to is not abnormal , the desire to go back is not abnormal , and the kind of magical thinking around that is not misplaced or inappropriate . And so oftentimes that is what I say , because I think people sometimes feel kind of crazy , or or they get , you know , we kind of throw pathology at them right when it's like you're still thinking about that or you're still not over that , and so that's one of the things that I typically start off . Telling people is like that makes a lot of sense and it sucks .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . So we have to try somehow to move forward in all that . Now , in your book and I love it for many reasons , and I mentioned to you briefly that there are so many layers and so many types of loss that you certainly do point out that grief , that thing that we all experience when we lose something we love or something we wanted . It's ever-present , it's in our lives all the time in varying degrees . Now you had you mentioned , in a very short period of time , you had major losses . How was that different for you than , for example , losing your sense of athleticism , your career ?
Speaker 3Yes , oh my gosh , there's a lot of layers even to that question .
Understanding Grief and Mourning
Speaker 3One of the biggest things that come to mind when you ask that is the perceived sense of social support and or social constraint that accompanies certain losses , right so , and again that the societal time expectations are around certain things . So one of the big losses that happened in that short period of time was my grandma , my grandma Pride , who's my very best friend for my whole life that she died when I was 30 . So we were very close that whole time she died and so her death in and of itself , of course there was a lot of social support and right outpouring and that sort of thing . But that was one of the most fascinating parts of the experience is that you know you have the services and she also died during COVID and so a lot of the rituals and routines and what you would expect to kind of take place to help with that bereavement process we didn't get to do in the same way . I didn't even get to be with her when she died , and so I think about some of those constraints , that kind of halt or impact the grieving process to begin with , and then I started to think through well , after the services everybody goes home and everyone else kind of goes back to life , and then it gets quiet , right , and that's where the grief really starts to hit you .
Speaker 3Absolutely no-transcript . The sport also lives on . I can still go to a basketball game , I can still go to a gym and very just that sort of thing . I can't . I can't go over to my grandma's house . Well , I can't go to her now , but she's no longer there , right , right . So I think that was a big piece . And then , of course , just the time having other losses so quickly after that and having a lot of big life changes happen . The week after , the week after her funeral , I moved to a new city . Three days after I moved to a new city , I started a new job . I moved in with my partner at the time , right , just so much that she was also no longer there for . So then it's layers upon layers of these other life events happening and not having my best friend in my closet . Sure , sure , yeah . So I'm really answering your question there .
Speaker 2No , that really does . It really does and for our listeners . It's not that I want to trivialize the loss we experience when we lose someone by death , but it's just to kind of normalize the topic of grief as being a perfectly natural response to a loss , in the hopes that we could just start to talk about it and feel a little more comfortable talking about it , such that once we get that level of comfort , even when we approach the topic that we've lost someone we love by death , that one's still going to be a little harder but we can still talk about it , because grief has become real to us and it's become something that we know that every single person experiences differently , that there are many , many , many different symptoms , side effects , after effects , emotions with grief , and also the fact that grief and mourning are two different things . Can you help me , help others understand the difference between grief and mourning , absolutely so .
Speaker 3To me , grief is a process . There are both active and inactive parts of that process , whereas mourning is more . It is more active right , it's the behaviors , it's the functions that you take in the process , as part of the process of suffering a loss . So we might see mourners at a memorial or at a funeral or honoring something they have lost in some way . Versus grief , we can feel it viscerally . Sometimes there can be some inactive pieces where parts of that process can get stirred up in ways we weren't anticipating or didn't quite expect . So mourning to me seems more direct , more active , more intentional , more behavioral in a sense , whereas grief is this process that involves a lot more layers and , like we've been saying , it's ever-present . It changes shape over time , that looks different , but it never really goes .
Speaker 2Right ? Does it kind of relate to the fact that if we're grieving we're often two different people ? When we're by ourselves , at home , by ourselves , we can sob , we can sit on the floor , we can just sit on the couch for days we can refuse to take a shower because what's the use ? And that's all part of that grief . But when you grab your purse and you go out that door and you run into someone at the grocery store , even though your heart is breaking and it's everything in your power to just manage to get through that trip , when someone says to you Kathy , how are you doing ? Oh , I'm fine .
Speaker 3Yeah , I'm fine , yeah , and that's what I find so fascinating about grief , and I think , through some of my own experiences I do I catch myself wondering and thinking to myself how am I doing this , how am I doing this ? But you brought up kind of this . You need to write like what is the point , what is the purpose of some of this ? And so I have these moments where I can almost step outside myself in my day-to-day life and just be like how am I , how is this going on ? And I think the same thing of other people as well sometimes too , and I don't always have a good answer .
Speaker 2Well , sometimes there just aren't good answers . Sometimes you have to just kind of wait it out a little bit and see how you know what else happens , see how it continues to transform . So how do you help people then that might come to you and say you know , I'm really struggling with this loss . Whatever the loss is , perhaps it's the loss of their marriage .
Speaker 3Yes , great question . I think so much of it starts with again just normalizing and making sure they don't feel crazy or insane . I can't tell you how much money I would have if I got paid . Every time someone is like I should be over it , or I don't know why I still think about this , or I don't know why this still affects me or why this still affects me to this extent . Like I get why it still bothers me , but why does it bother me so much ? And so I think the first thing that I try to do when I'm helping someone is just normalizing some of it , because they're not crazy and I don't think we need to pathologize them or throw medication at them necessarily . Right , like it really does make sense when you get into what has occurred and what they are grieving and all of the varied losses that are part of that . Because no matter what we lose , it's not just that one thing . There's always there's cumulative losses or secondary losses , and when we're balancing the losses with the potential gains too , I think that can be a whole other thing . So I try to make them not feel crazy first , because they're not , and then I like to really explore and look at some of the layers and the nuance around these things , even with desirable life events .
Speaker 3This conversation right now is reminding me of working with .
Speaker 3I have a client who recently had a child , who is a avid athlete , very fierce competitor , very successful , and is grieving a lot , and the event of having the child is desirable , right , you're excited , happy , but there are still so many losses too , and there's a lot of stigma around talking about those things like , oh , you should just be so excited and it should be all about how great this is .
Speaker 3And so I think part of that , too , is just helping people live more in that duality and see that there are both sides . Of course it's desirable and of course you're excited , but you've also lost sleep , right , money , you lost freedom , you lost time training that's a check to have your identity as an athlete Sure , sure , et cetera , et cetera , so , etc . So I mean , yeah , just helping people hold both things and look at how complex these things are to you and help them kind of sort through and figure out . So what do I , what do I do with this , how do I be with this and and how am I going to move forward in adaptive ways for myself definitely now I've been known on my podcast episodes every so often to ask what I call a toddler
Supporting Grief
Speaker 3question .
Speaker 2It's a very simple question but I just have to ask . Today I'm not going to ask a question , I have kind of a toddler statement . Okay , it seems to me that the more I read your book , the more I listen to you , the more I talk with all of my guests . Actually , the number one tip for anyone grieving any loss at all , any loss at all , even the simplest loss , is to find someone you are comfortable with and talk about it . Is that a fair statement ?
Speaker 3I do think that's a fair statement . Yeah , seems so simple . The only way through grief is to go through it and to be with it . Right , and I don't think , and and I tried to make this point a few times throughout the book but it's so interesting to me that balance between interdependence and independence and how we really do need people and need connection and need support in some ways to get through these challenging times , but then we do have to balance that with talking with ourselves too . So you're talking about having another support person . I also think that self-awareness and self-improvement and right , some of those components are also really , really important . That's a tough balance , yeah .
Speaker 2Sometimes , just talking to ourselves , though , can't give us the motivation we need , the reason we need to move forward , because sometimes and I know I'm guilty of this all the time when I need to do something or should do something , even as a child , when I should clean my room I can certainly talk to myself about it and tell myself I know I need to do this , or else I'm going to get in trouble with my mom or my dad . Yet I could always talk myself out of it . So , sometimes , finding that other person can be the best thing you can do for yourself .
Speaker 3Yes , some good old avoidance and denial right . We can convince ourselves of anything , Absolutely .
Speaker 2We're so good at that . We're so good at that I'm a pro , actually . Someone likened it to packing up your briefcase and getting ready to go to court and testify to the judge why you shouldn't do it or you should do it . So , in thinking of that , there are numerous opportunities out there for people to find someone , whether it be a good friend , someone who's willing to , as they say , hold space for you , someone who's just willing to listen , to let you talk , kind of be your sounding board , non-judgmental . If you don't have someone like that in your life , you certainly can find a coach , a therapist , a practitioner , a clinician whatever title you want to bestow but I want to stress the importance of not just picking up the phone or sending an email and forming an alliance with the very first person you connect with , because it needs to be a relationship . What are some of the things that you might encourage someone to look for ?
Speaker 3That's a great question . I do think connection is important and you can get a sense , particularly around grief , even in the first few minutes , if someone is going to jump to your aid and try to rescue you or find a solution for a problem that might not have a solution or a situation where you don't actually need rescuing . This is actually a concept that I talk about a lot with people , because I do get a lot of questions about well , how do I I know this person I care about is really going through something Right , and how do I best show up ? I don't know what to say until I don't say anything , or I don't reach out enough because I'm not sure that I'll be helpful , or I don't know what to say until I don't say anything , or I don't reach out enough because I'm not sure that I'll be helpful , or I don't know exactly what they need . Even as someone who specializes in grief and loss , I don't know exactly what people who are grieving need , because it looks so different for each and every person , sure , but I talk a lot about just being with them , right , if you suffer a truly significant , impactful loss , I'm not especially right after the fact , I'm not going to do or say anything that's going to take that pain away from you .
Speaker 3It's great to be there , but me , being able to show up and be there with you and say , I see you , this does suck . This is horrible and I'm right here and I know I can't make it better , but I am right here and I will watch you go through the motions . I will watch you go through all the feelings and I don't have expectations for the way you need to do it . I don't have rules to oppose on you . I think those are the most effective things . So for someone looking for that kind of support , those are the types of responses that I would ask them to kind of look for and key into and that will hopefully help them figure out . Ok , yes , this is , I can just be , I can just be authentic . I don't need to solve it necessarily , but here is someone that I can just be alongside .
Speaker 2Right . So you need to not only allow yourself some time , but you need to find someone who is going to be comfortable with you while you take that time . Because , as you say , when I used to say this to my kids , all the time when we'd be in the middle of a problem , it could be something from school , it could be oh , a boyfriend problem , or their best friend said something that they shouldn't have said , and I would . I'd go to the table and I would draw a circle , and I'd draw a line entering the circle and I said , okay , this is you . Now you know a little bit about geometry .
Speaker 2What's the quickest way out ? And it's's not . You can't turn around and go back . The quickest way out is just straight through to the other side . Yeah , anything else is not the right answer . So sometimes you just need to take a deep breath and just move forward through the pain , through the grief , despite the grief . But it is so much easier to do that if you have someone beside you who will listen , who will acknowledge the fact that they know that you're in pain , that they normalize your pain and let you know it's okay , they've got you , they're there with you and you'll do it together . So sometimes I think it takes a while sometimes to find the right person , but it's certainly possible and I would encourage our listeners to do that yeah .
Speaker 3So , even if I hear that there's also part of me being a former athlete and overachiever and just doing , doing , doing all the time , even when I hear that and I know that to be true there's still this part of me but it's like , okay , well , but what do we do with that ? Right ? I think that is super hard to sit with , and so I just , I guess , want to also talk through the balance that comes with that and doing . The motto , or I guess the tagline that I use for my practice is elevate your doing and transform your being .
Speaker 3Oh , what I love about that is we do again this idea of moving forward or going back to work or going back to school , or still handling responsibility or performing , whether it be in our sport or in our job or in our relationship or whatever we do , still have to do those things , and so I think figuring out how to , how to do those things and , right , how to elevate that performance is awesome , but I also think that requires us figuring out how do we just be with who we are .
Speaker 3We are human beings , not human doings . How do we work on that side of things too ? I think a lot of grief processing and working through loss is more on that side . But I guess I just got to draw attention to that balance , because we do have to figure out how to do a little bit of both , and I know more people like me hearing oh , the solution is just to be Well , I can't do that , I'm a doer , that's not going to work and it's like well , yes , I hear that , and we got to figure out how to find some sort of balance there , right , right In your practice ?
Speaker 2do you use certain modalities of , I don't know , dbt or EFT or human design ? Do you use any of those at all ?
Speaker 3What ones do you use ? Yeah , great question . So it really does depend person to person . I try to get a sense of what makes each client tick and what might be useful . I do . Going back to this idea of balance , I'm pretty eclectic in terms of modalities that I pull from . I work mostly with athletes and people within that athletic community and so , again , a lot of doers , perfectionists , high achievers , that sort of thing . So I do a fair amount of CBT , DBT , you know , skills-based , solution-focused sorts of things . In some ways I do feel like those are band-aids and we do have to get at what's underneath it and really dig in , because I think when we get to those deeper layers you don't need as many band-aids , and some of those just end up taking care of themselves . So I do try to balance that with things like interpersonal process , therapy systems , components , multicultural or feminist techniques at times . So I try to have that nice balance of some more doer sorts of things but also some being sorts of things too
Exploring Modalities and Grief Support
Speaker 3.
Speaker 2I like that answer very much , and you even mentioned some things I've not yet heard about . So that's always fun for me , because then it lets me do a little bit more exploring as well . That sounds really good . And modalities , like you say , sometimes they're just band-aids , they're things you can try , and sometimes they're and this may be an incorrect statement , so please correct me Sometimes they're tended more for the symptoms you're going through than they are for the actual process itself . Would that be fair ?
Speaker 3Yes , absolutely , and that is something you know anytime I start working with somebody . Part of my spiel when I first start out with them is letting them know . I want to know who they are . I want to know lots of layers of their personhood and how those layers intersect and what they actually want , Not what is this main immediate fire we need to put out . Of course , we're going to talk about that , but I really do want those kind of deeper , more meaningful connections and understandings of who they are , because I think then it's much easier to put out some of these fires Right , right , much more Excellent .
Speaker 2it over and everything . And this has been very interesting for me and I know I will continue for hours into the evening rethinking things , and I will also finish your book , which , again , is fascinating . This is the time in my podcast that I actually turn the microphone over to you and I allow you some time to spend directly with our listeners , without me interrupting with questions or perspectives or changing the focus . This is your time to speak directly to them . We do have an international listener base , and in over 103 countries around the world , so they're all around . So this is your chance to speak directly to them . The floor is yours .
Speaker 3Awesome . Well , thank you , and again , thank you for having me on . I agree these are conversations that I continue to let seep in and think over and write what about this , what about that ? So those are looking to continue . So I very much appreciate the space and the time with you . I am headquartered in Denver , colorado . That's where I live .
Speaker 3Like I said , I've been in private practice for a couple years now and I do a variety of things in my private practice . I do a lot of one-on-one work . Again , I'm merely with athletes . I work with a lot of college , pro-olympic , olympic , olympic , paralympic athlete , either current and or former . I work with a lot of retirees Brief and lost right and I'm working with a lot of well-retiring and transitioning out of things . I'm licensed . There's a type of legislation called SIPACT that gives me reciprocity , so I'm licensed in about 40 states throughout the US and so my work is primarily remote because I'm working with people in all time zones , pretty much all day .
Speaker 3I do a lot of individual one-on-one work . I do some work with different teams and organizations , whether it be sports , psych or mental performance , focus or more mental health related stuff to some navigating interpersonal issues or , oh gosh , just like life events that come up that impact an entire organization , that sort of thing . And then I do a lot of education and consultation as well . So , for example , a school district has reached out to me as kind of like hey , can you help us with some mental performance stuff and help give both our coaches and our student athletes some different skills and tools ? Or there will be times where another clinician or a parent of , for example , someone with an eating disorder needs a little bit of consultation or support around how best to handle that . So try to kind of diversify what I do , keep it busy .
Speaker 3And then , of course , the book right . So I've read both . That's been out now for about a month , so we're still kind of in that very fresh post launch stage and I'm not entirely sure what is going to come from that right and how I want to build that into my practice and the work that I do . I wanted to write the book because I mean , I felt like I needed to for my own and as a result I was like you know what , no-transcript untalkable things talkable , but you know , you and the thousand others like you that are out there really working hard at this .
Speaker 2I think we're gaining because when three and a half years ago I think we're gaining because when three and a half years ago , when we launched this podcast , there were maybe I don't know a handful 20 podcasts about grief , now they're all over the place . They're all over the place and grief is actually seeping into the national news here and there . It's becoming more prevalent in movies . You're seeing more examples of people dealing with grief not just somebody died and move on with the plot , but actually showing that person in some of those layers of grief . So I really think we're making strides to making it an easier topic to talk about and once we do that , we're on our way , I think , to helping people really deal with their losses and their grief .
Speaker 2So the book and she Was Never the Same Again by Natasha Trujillo Check it out . I know you can get it on Amazon . I have a copy . I'm fascinated with it . It's one of those books that I probably will read a second time and I can say that maybe about five books that I've ever read in my life , but this is probably one of those , because I know I will gain even more on the second read .
Speaker 2So consider the book , check out Natasha If you're interested
Connection and Gratitude in Grief
Speaker 2. Her contact information will be in our podcast notes and it'll be on the website . And , as always , I invite you , if you struggle to find the way to reach her , reach out to me , I'll connect you , I promise . So until next time , listeners , remember you are near and dear to me , because it is by your presence , by your support , that I have become the person I am today , this very moment . You have helped me immeasurably in the last three and a half years and I thank you so much for that , and I do hope that you'll tune in again next time as we all continue to live and grieve . Thank you , natasha , thank you so much .
Speaker 1Thank you so much for listening with us today . Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes ? Please email us at info at asiliveandgrievecom and let us know . We hope you will find a moment to leave a review , send an email and share with others . Join us next time as we continue to live and grieve together .