The Grief Cup

John Polo returns to "As I Live and Grieve," bringing with him a moving account of enduring love and transformation. Discover the compelling ways love can persist beyond loss, and how John found the courage to open his heart again to his fiancée, Allie, all while honoring the memory of Michelle.

We also touch upon the challenges of seeking connection and companionship, especially for older individuals who have lost a spouse. John shares practical wisdom on navigating the modern dating scene with authenticity while safeguarding against its potential pitfalls. We highlight the invaluable support offered by Soaring Spirits International, a community dedicated to helping widows and widowers build genuine connections. Join us in this heartfelt episode as we explore themes of love, healing, and community, offering hope and insights for those on their own grief journeys.

Contact:
www.asiliveandgrieve.com
info@asiliveandgrieve.com
Facebook:  As I Live and Grieve
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To Reach John:
Email:  john@johpolocoaching.com
Website:  johnpolocoaching.com

 
Credits: 
Music by Kevin MacLeod 

Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve

The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are you.

Speaker 2 0:26

Hi everyone. Welcome back again to another episode of as I Live and Grieve. Here we are again with probably one of my top three favorite people of all time that I never met until I started this podcast. John Polo's, back again with me today and you may remember him from previous episodes. He talked about his late wife Michelle, and I know we'll hear about her again today, but he has also been very, very inspirational, motivational, etc. On the issue of dating again getting yourself back out there and he and I have kind of gone back and forth, because I have said before and I still maintain I'm not looking to date yet, I'm trying to keep an open mind, enough that you know. If somebody happened to cross my path, you know I might consider having a cup of coffee. So hey, john, thanks for coming back.

Speaker 3 1:19

Yeah, I love coming on this podcast. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 1:22

Oh, absolutely Absolutely, and it's very true. You are one of my favorite people. You always make me smile, and Stephanie always speaks about you as well, so she said to say hey.

Speaker 3 1:34

Likewise.

Speaker 2 1:35

Yeah, I will. I will do that so before we really get started and we've got something really unique to talk about today in the area of grief. A different perspective, if you will, but would you just refresh everybody's memory about who is John Polo?

Speaker 3 1:51

Yeah. So I'll just quickly give you a little bit of background on how I got here. So I dated my late wife Michelle in high school. We dated for a year. She broke my heart. Seven years later she came back into my life. We started to build a life together. Two and a half years after our reunion she got one of the worst cancers known to man and she had it for two and a half years before she passed away.

Speaker 3 2:13

A month after she passed away I was going just stir crazy. I had no idea what to do with myself at all in any way, shape or form, and a friend suggested that I start a blog to kind of talk about my grief, to process it. So I did that and it took off. And as I approach nine years out, I have no idea how it's been almost nine years, but as I approach nine years out, that is how I sell into this career. So I have four books out. I do all types of coaching grief coaching, life coaching, dating coaching and I travel around the world speaking about a bunch of stuff and I come on amazing podcasts like this one have been a vital part of my healing as I go through my various forms of grief with my various losses in my life.

Speaker 2 3:10

So let's get started with the topic at hand, and all I'm going to do is say that it relates to cups, and when I first heard about it, I thought about the red solo cups that everybody stacks. So kick it off.

Speaker 3 3:22

Okay. So I'm going to actually give you what we talked about and then I'm going to elaborate into something else a little bit Perfect, so I'll talk for a few minutes here. A couple of years ago, I did a video and here's basically what I said in the video when I fell in love with Michelle in high school. Oh, actually, let me start here. Sorry, monday morning I haven't had enough coffee. So when I talk about the cup being full, I'm not talking about with liquid, okay. When I talk about the cup being full, I'm talking about the love that I had still have and always will have for my late wife, michelle. So when we met in high school and I fell in love with her, the cup was overflowing, right, I was so in love with her my first love. When she broke my heart a year into the relationship, well, there was a lot of heartbreak and anger, if I'm being mad, but my cup was still overflowing with love. That's why I was as hurt as I was. For the seven years that we lost all contact, the cup was still just as full. Now, at some point I forced her out of my mind and out of my heart because it hurt too much. But in reality, even though I hid the cup, the cup was full. Seven years later, when she came back into my life, the cup was still overflowing. As I approach nine years out now, my Michelle cup is just as full as it has ever been. It is overflowing with the love that I have still and will always have for her. What happens when a widowed person finds someone special again? What happens when a widowed person falls in love again Is the new person just gets their own damn cup. No, that was the video I did Then. I want to tell you about how that evolved and then I'll give you one more quick thought.

Speaker 3 5:03

So that was the video I did a couple years ago. That was right after I met my fiance, allie. About five months into our relationship, allie told me she loved me and I was not there yet. So I said, well, you could say it to me, but I'm not there yet and I'm not going to say it until I'm ready. So about 11 months in, I realized, okay, I'm fully there and I really wanted to take my time to protect my heart and her heart. So I waited a month and I told her that I love her back on our one-year anniversary A couple of weeks after that she started saying to me but you love me so much. And I'm thinking to myself and it was in a funny, humorous way, right but I'm thinking to myself oh my goodness, phyllis and I have one hurdle, what are we doing here? And if I'm being completely honest, there was a part of me that thought, well, like that's kind of like Michelle land, like that's kind of reserved for Michelle.

Speaker 3 5:51

A couple of months after that, I took her on vacation for her birthday and on that trip it went to the next level for me and I realized, ok, now I do and I am in love with you so much, but I kind of want to sit with it again Again before I said it.

Speaker 3 6:07

I kind of want to sit with it and make sure that it was real, make sure I know. So a couple weeks after that, I am about to board a flight, waiting at the gate for a speaking trip to Camp Widow, and I grab my phone and I type out the words I love you so much and the so is capital, right, s-o-c-a-t. And I sit there and I look at it for about two minutes and then I press send and after I pressed send I got profoundly sad. I just got so sad that I was saying those words in that way to somebody that wasn't Michelle. Right, I love you so much, s-o capital. And then, after about sitting with that for two minutes, I realized something Even saying those words, with those feelings behind it, to somebody who wasn't Michelle did not change my Michelle cup at all. My Michelle cup, which represents my love for her still to this day, was still overflowing. The difference now was my Allie cup was also overflowing. Now I had two cups that were so damn full.

Speaker 2 7:19

That is so cool.

Speaker 3 7:20

And the last thing I'll say really quick, and then I want to have a conversation, because you're more interesting than I am. I don't know I got a bunch of cups, though. When Michelle first passed, all I had was the grief cup.

Speaker 2 7:29

Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, I mean you have a Michelle cup and an Allie cup.

Speaker 3 7:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2 7:34

What other lady cups do you have, John?

Speaker 3 7:36

No other lady cups other than my 18-year-old daughter, my daughter. Oh my God. I love music again, cup, oh my God. Six years later, my interest in sports came back. Cup, and I love nature. Cup, and my kid is the coolest person I know. Cup, and I've made some amazing new friends. Cup, and I love to help people. Cup, and for the first time in my life, I take care of myself mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually cup.

Speaker 2 8:21

So my life as a whole is very full now because I kept working on myself and I kept adding those cups and none of it takes away from my Michelle cup in any way, shape or form Right Now. Did you recognize or realize these other cups after you kind of created or realized your Alley cup, or were they there all along and you just didn't really realize it?

Finding Positivity in Pain

Speaker 3 8:34

It's interesting because we all talk about grief is not linear, but the other thing that's not linear is rebuilding. It was so hard to rebuild myself and my life after Michelle passed. I was building the cups, but I don't know that, I was fully aware of it until about a month before I met Allie, about a month before I met Allie. About a month before I met Allie, I just had some deep, deeply profound moments where I felt really connected to Michelle and my dad, who passed away 16 years ago, because I was starting to fully recognize how far I had come and I was starting to give myself credit for that. So again, that was about a month before I met Allie it really started to hit me in a profound and emotional way.

Speaker 2 9:18

Yeah, yeah, sometimes, you know, we grow in certain ways and we don't really realize what's happening to ourselves. It's just like if you're on a weight loss program, you may see what the scale says, but you don't really see a difference in yourself or feel a difference in yourself. And then all of a sudden, you might be sitting there one day thinking, wait, my clothes fit a little better, or something like that. It's just. But I think it's the same principle with friends or family. You see people every day. You don't notice some of the subtle differences. They're there. But when that moment happens, for whatever reason or whatever triggers it that that realization comes to you.

Speaker 2 10:00

It is profound. It is profound and one of the things I love so much about you, john, is that you share so candidly about how you feel, how you felt, what you went through and everything. And it's difficult for people to do that. It's especially difficult for men to do that. So I thank you so, so much for that. So, all of these cups what made you think of them as cups instead of, I don't know, pockets or something?

Speaker 3 10:32

I have no idea, because that's how my brain works. One day, I mean, I did that video about the cups when it comes to widowed love a couple of years ago and I was just sitting here a couple of months ago and I just I started doing a video about it and I just, you know, I just pulled out the cups. I guess one of the reasons why is we had the ability to fill up our cup a little bit. So I used to give this whole thing years ago with my clients and I haven't talked about it a while, but in a different way. If I, you know, let's say like maybe you know, four years in or whatever, when I was still, you know, trying to rebuild, like I kind of knew the tools because I do this for a living.

Speaker 3 11:07

But you know, just because you know the tools doesn't mean they're going to work for you in the way you want to work, necessarily Right? So I would talk to clients about, you know, let's say, you're in a bad space and it's Friday and you know you have the option to go to dinner with one of your good friends. You have the option to, you know, hop on a phone call with your favorite cousin. Right, you have the option to. You know, listen to a podcast that could prove healing. Those things on that Friday might add to your cup. It podcast that could prove healing those things on that Friday might add to your cup. It doesn't take away from your pain of what you're going through.

Speaker 3 11:38

But on that Friday, instead of your life cup being 10% because everything just stinks, maybe you can still add up to 35% on that day with your actions, with how you lean into healing, etc. So I think that we have the ability if we pay attention to ourself. What makes john happy? What makes him unhappy? Who makes john happy? Who makes him unhappy? Where is john feeling when he's better?

Speaker 3 12:03

right where is he feeling when he's worse? We have the ability to zone in on ourself and then to start adding to our cups accordingly okay, all right.

Speaker 2 12:11

Do you have any cups that ever start to diminish in content?

Speaker 3 12:18

Every damn cup I have. Because here's the thing Pain feels permanent to people. When you are on the floor sobbing, you are convinced that you will never get back up. You are convinced you will never get back up. This pain will never feel better than it does in this moment, ever. But the other thing that feels permanent to people is progress. I see it all the time and I see it in myself as well. But I see it all the time with clients, friends.

Speaker 3 12:47

Oh, you know, I've been struggling with motivation and I was motivated today. I have arrived and I'm never looking back. Oh, I'm. You know, I've been struggling with self-esteem. You know my entire life, but I just I feel really good about myself. I have arrived and I am never looking back. That's not how it works. No, life is difficult and we, more than likely, are going to revert back to our default. My mind is wired to be negative. It is, it's wired to be negative. I got to wired to be negative. I got to do the work. I got to pay attention to the toolbox I created and then pull out the tools to bring myself back to where I want to be, to fill my back up. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 13:25

yes, it does. It does, and I think many people are wired to be negative, uh, in respect to our emotions. I don't why. I don't know how we got there. Is it learned behavior? Is it you know the way we were parented? I have no idea. But you know, when you ask somebody how they're doing or something, many times you're going to get the oh my gosh, I feel horrible. Or oh, my back hurts so much, or something like that.

Speaker 2 13:54

And it's interesting, this whole positivity, negativity thing I had at one point oh, this is way, way back I had decided that there was just too much negativity in my life. I was still working full time. There were so many negative people in my workplace that really, really bothered me. So I said, okay in my workplace, that really really bothered me. So I said, okay, I'm going to do my best to get rid of my own negativity first, and then I'm going to try to wean out some of the negative people and just not have as much contact.

Speaker 2 14:24

And probably about a month into this, I was feeling pretty good and I started with something so simple as not using the word no or can't for 24 hours and then extending it from there. Yeah, and I finally reached the point where I did. I had some friends that I decided to no longer go out with or do any activities with, because they were so negative and they would bring me down, and that attempt at positivity just made so much difference in my life. The one person I couldn't get rid of, though, was my husband, you know, and I didn't want to get rid of him, but he also was a very negative person, and I really found how that really impacts you. So, you know, I encourage people best they can to try to be more positive with things like that, but you're right, we're all kind of wired to be negative.

Speaker 3 15:16

Well and I'm wired to be very mean to myself Again, it's building that toolbox that I have built for myself that I help clients with, and then using the toolbox. But I also so two other thoughts. When we're talking about negativity, I think sometimes people hear what they want to hear. So I want to be really clear. Like huge advocate here for allowing yourself to feel pain, like so many people think that they should suppress their human pain. No, like, allow yourself to feel pain. You are human. It is okay.

Speaker 3 15:50

But I do think as a society, as humans, we're all staring to the left. So just like, do me a favor If you're listening to this. Like, just you don't have to take your whole head and go all the way to the left. Just like, tilt your head to the left a little bit and look everyone's staring over there and what's over there is every negative thought you've ever had about yourself. It's every person who's judged you or made you feel bad about yourself. It's every insecurity you've ever had and all the mean thing you say to yourself about what you haven't accomplished in life. It's all the doubt that things might ever get better.

Speaker 3 16:22

Right and over here to the right, if you tilt your out to the right a little bit. That's where we want to spend the majority of our time, because over here is everything that makes you uniquely you, everything that you have accomplished and how far you have come, everything that you bring to the table, everything that makes you beautiful inside and out. And what's over here is the possibility that things can get back, the possibility that what you want might just occur. You know how many clients I have who want to find love again and they tell me you know, john, it is never going to happen, and I'm convinced of that, and I'm not going to tell you it's going to happen, because I don't coach in platitudes, but can we at least allow an equal amount of space in your head, in your mind, for the fact that it might? So a more healthy approach than saying I am never going to find it, ever again. And I know that is okay, I might not find it again, and that scares me because I want it.

Speaker 3 17:23

That's over on the left, but on the right, but it's possible Right. Every day people find it and I might. You see how that's. We're not asking you to be positive 24, seven, no, we're just pulling out the space Again, to be open to the possibility.

Speaker 2 17:38

And it reminds me of every time the meteorologist comes on TV or I happen to see it on the internet. You know they're saying the chance of rain today and I always say 50%. It either will or it won't. It's 50%. So everything in our lives, everything we want, is at least 50%. Where I want to find love again, okay, there's a 50% chance. You will or you won't. But you have to be open to both halves, both sides of that.

Speaker 3 18:07

Yeah, and what happens is when we only focus on all of our insecurities, every mistake we've ever made, it's never going to happen what I want in life. You know it's never going to happen. I'll never find luck. You want to talk about a perfect way to demotivate yourself, and I promise like I'm not preaching from a soapbox, because the reason why I'm so passionate about this stuff and can teach this stuff the way I do is because I have lived it. I understand I am, but I have done the work now where I'm able to tilt my head to the right more often than not, but it just demotivates you when you have that narrative in your head. I want to find love. That never, ever happened.

Speaker 2 18:45

Yeah, yeah, I'm going to try. When I go to bed at night, I'm going to try to make sure my head is tilted to the right on the pillow instead of the left, and maybe that will help me all night and I'll wake up that way. So I'm going to try that. I think that's a great tip and something to do. So let's talk a little bit about the dating again, because you're so good at this and so many people out there decide yeah, I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life. And I think that might be where it starts. You know, sure, they miss their partner desperately, desperately, and they want that life back. But the reality is you can't have that life back. So they think I just don't want to be alone and they start there Is that right? Is that where the thought usually starts?

Speaker 3 19:29

Yeah, I would say most of the time. Yeah, I mean you. Yeah, I don't want to be alone, just miss companionship, right, okay, all right.

Speaker 2 19:36

Yeah, no-transcript, I don't think so.

Navigating Love and Relationships After Loss

Speaker 3 19:44

Okay, I mean, I think each person is different in their approach and why it comes, but I think most of the time it's just we're human, like I literally tell people because they guilt themselves out of their desires. I'm like we're human. When we were born, when we came out of our mom's house, we were programmed to desire community, family, friendship and, for 99% of us, romantic love. Oh sure.

Speaker 2 20:08

Sure, if anything, I miss the conversation. I miss intelligent conversation with somebody. That's what I miss. Or even so, simply, like in my household, I live with my daughter and her family. I love Sundays it's usually Sundays, although now it can be any day of the week when football is on, because they're a football family so I'll go into the living room where they're all watching football and I just love that sense of community. That's something I miss a lot. But I don't know. And maybe here's where you can step in. You know my opinion on dating again, finding somebody. You know I don't think I'll ever find my soulmate again, but I could be wrong. But I would love to find somebody, perhaps that I could just have a good conversation, a cup of coffee, with maybe the occasional dinner or movie, but I don't want to go any further than that.

Speaker 3 20:55

Yeah, is that a possibility? 100%. So again, I'm not saying that any of this is easy, but I'll just give you a quick story and then I'll answer your direct question. So I was having coffee with a female friend strictly platonic it was, I don't know, maybe like right before COVID or something, and I was just telling her about like, how lonely I was. And this friend who I love her she's divorced, not widowed she said, oh, you need to get laid. And I thought to myself. I didn't say anything but I thought to myself, oh, you have no idea what I'm talking about Because of all the things I missed, that's probably like 11th on the list.

Speaker 3 21:30

Yeah, it's conversation, the companionship, the going to dinner with somebody, the laughing, the walking past them while they're cooking dinner and giving them a kiss, or while I'm doing the laundry and they walk past me and give me a bear hug, like whatever. That's what I miss more. Yeah, that's why I miss more. So I think that we develop these things. We tell ourselves, and part of that is because, if I'm being honest, most of my clients are female and most are 40 and above and a large percentage are really like 60s and 70s and there's a narrative that a lot of my clients will tell themselves as far as I'm too old, yeah Right. Or even my mom, who's widowed. My mom has been widowed for 16 years. Hi, mom, she won't be listening to this, but hi, and she'll say you know, I don't want to live with someone. And I'm just thinking. I'm just thinking, mama, oh yeah, there are a lot of men out there that would just also want companionship. Now, do those men grow on trees? No, but it's possible.

Speaker 2 22:35

Yeah, yeah. Well, and today, with all the social media we have and everything, it's no surprise that probably in an average week on Facebook there are four to 10 men that want to be my friend. And of course, you know, if I do my research and I look at their profile and everything, they've got two pictures and no information and everything like that. So there's a lot of scams out there, a lot of frauds out there. How do women especially, protect themselves from that? And then there's a second part to that question how do the men overcome that stereotype?

Speaker 3 23:09

Great question. So let me take the first part. I'll try to make it shortish. So the first thing I always tell clients is look, you're not going to sit down at dinner or coffee with this guy on the first date and give him your banking and routing information. We're not going to do that. I'm kind of being a smart ass because to at least that extent, you can absolutely protect yourself. They don't need to know about your finances, they don't need to have access to anything. Protect yourself in that way. I have a lot of clients and female friends who will do their research. They're going to look this guy up on Facebook and LinkedIn. I run and I'm I'm all for that type of stuff.

Speaker 3 23:47

Sure, you want to, 100%. You know, you definitely want to meet in a public place the first day, get to know this person and just be smart about it. Like, if someone seems like they're love bombing you and they're a scammer, I'm not saying you have to run away, but definitely take a real close look at it and a deep breath. More than likely you're probably right. Yeah, okay, um, as far as men, I think that for nice guys we this is something I talk about a lot in one of my workshops, we have a tendency to want to prove so badly that we're nice because we know that you might have just seated four to eight holes in a row.

Speaker 3 24:26

Yeah, so we want to come across as so nice because we don't want you to think that we're an a-hole, and sometimes it comes across as too nice and it's too much right, and that's where actually nice guys can kind of hurt themselves. I think you just want to show up as the authentic you, okay, and don't give them any reason to question it. Okay, you're not going to ask for the banking and routing information.

Speaker 3 24:44

That's solid, that's solid. Don't love bomb.

Speaker 2 24:47

Yeah, tag one, okay Now. So I want to give a shout out, if you will, to an organization we're both familiar with, and that's Soaring Spirits International. And the reason I want to give them a shout out is that this is an organization devoted to widows and widowers, and they are so devoted to people in this situation that, in order to become a member, there's no membership fee. But in order to become a member and have access to the groups the local groups that might be in your community or something you have to be vested, you have to prove that you're a widow or a widower, and that, in today's world, is extremely unusual. So I just want to say thank you for doing that and, kind of, you know, applaud them and give them recognition for doing that, because they're trying to protect all of us in that situation, as widows and widowers, from these fraudulent people.

Exploring Inner Cups in Grief

Speaker 3 25:49

So this is for your audience. If you hear something in the background, I apologize. They're hammering about me in the apartment above me Absolutely, and I know that there are widowed groups on Facebook that will also require that, and some people get bent out of shape about it, which I can understand. But ultimately it is to protect our community Absolutely, and I just think it's really important to mention kind of like when we're talking about the left-right thing, it can become very easy for people to have the narrative you know, everybody online is a scumbag or an idiot or a scammer. That's not true. The amount of clients and friends I have that have met an amazing love online like I would need multiple sheets of paper to make the list. So we just want to be careful about how much we let these narratives that are not true and do us a disservice reign the space in our head. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 26:39

Yep it does. Okay, I want to segue back for a minute to the cup. How many cups do you think you have?

Speaker 3 26:46

Ooh, I got a lot. I got my Michelle, my Allie, my daughter, and then I got, I don't know, 10, 15, music, nature, friends, travel, self-growth, working on myself.

Speaker 2 27:00

Are they all positive cup?

Speaker 3 27:01

I hadn't really ever thought about it like that. Everything that I have ever struggled with as far as inner dialogue, about it like that, everything that I have ever struggled with as far as inner dialogue, motivation, self-confidence those struggles are not gone, but again, my toolboxes help me. When I pull out my toolbox, I can get back to work. Okay, you've been real mean to yourself this week, john. What do we want to do about it? And through that, the cups fill up.

Speaker 3 27:22

So there's still a lot of negative things in my life, a lot of negative things inside of me, but the difference is now I pay attention to them and I work on them. Where I had neglected myself my entire life, good, do you still have a grief cup? 100%. So the thing I would say is I'm a big believer that, like after a truly profound loss, grief never fully ends, but it changes, it evolves. My dad passed 16 years ago. Do I grieve him every day? Of course not, but are there moments? Yeah, my wife asked almost nine years ago Do I grieve her every day? No, but I love her every day, I miss her every day, and there are moments, absolutely.

Speaker 2 28:01

Sure, there are memories, there are triggers and everything that will make you think of them. That's so neat. And as I think about the cups more and more, where do you keep your cups?

Speaker 3 28:12

In my mind, in my heart.

Speaker 2 28:13

In your mind, in your heart, in those empty pockets. No, it's a great perspective and a great image to think about the cups and how they stay just as full.

Speaker 3 28:25

And they live alongside my cup. For Michelle, they live alongside the grief cup. It doesn't have to be either or it's all.

Speaker 2 28:33

Oh yeah, it's really cool how it's all inclusive. I really really like that. Okay, sadly and you know, this happens and I always hate when it happens but time winds down such that we have to think about winding up and signing off. So I'm going to turn the microphone over to you, john, and let you speak directly to our listeners and let them know what's going on for you and where they can find you.

Speaker 3 28:55

Yeah, so johnpolocoachingcom. So, polo, like Marco Polo, johnpolocoachingcom, you can go on there. I offer coaching, workshops, groups, speeches, or you could just follow my four books. Or you could just follow me on social media for free, where I post every day either written content or videos, and it's about everything. It's about grief, dating, self-growth, motivation, life.

Speaker 2 29:20

Cool, you will love his books. I have every single one of them, in fact, I think of one or two of them I may have two or three copies, because they are gifts that I will give to people that just need some help, some support, some inspiration. John's books are very unique in that they are not the regular narrative. They're just little bursts of comments, thoughts, quotes, texts, emotions, whatever, sometimes drawings, and that makes them so easy to read, especially when you're in that very initial phase of grief and it's difficult sometimes to wrap your head around three words in a row and get the content. So I really encourage you to look for his books. Probably my very, very favorite one is Stupid Shit that People Say to Grievers, that one takes the cake, and I've given that one as a gift numerous times.

Speaker 2 30:16

You will also hear John if you are lucky enough to go to the Camp Widow in November in Toronto, and in fact this episode will launch probably while he and I are both there. So good times to be had. Yet, and John is always readily available and is always very gracious about coming onto our podcast. I just love having you as a guest. We have some great conversations. So to our listeners, thanks for tuning in. I hope you check in again next week. You know there's always a guest and it's always a great conversation. I hope you, in each conversation, find at least one little tidbit to take with you for the day and remember to take care of yourselves. Catch you next time, as we all continue to live and grieve.

Speaker 1 31:00

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