As I Live and Grieve®
It’s time for grief to come out of the basement, or wherever we have stuffed it to avoid talking about it. When you suffer a loss you need support, comfort, and a safe place to heal. What you are experiencing is painful but normal, unique but similar, surreal but very, very real. As grief advocates we understand and want to provide support, knowledge and comfort as you continue to live and grieve. Host, Kathy Gleason; Producer, Kelly Keck. www.asiliveandgrieve.com
As I Live and Grieve®
Acceptance and Growth in Grief
What role does acceptance play in healing from profound grief? Join us as we sit down with Chris Mamone, an acceptance coach whose personal experiences with loss have shaped his mission to help others navigate their journey through sorrow. Chris opens up about the heart-wrenching losses of his grandfather and infant son, sharing how these tragedies became pivotal moments in his life, guiding him toward a career dedicated to supporting those grappling with grief. This honest conversation also brings to light the often under-discussed experience of infant loss, drawing from our own stories to offer understanding and empathy.
The conversation underscores the significance of a good fit between coach and client, and knowing when a coaching journey has naturally concluded. We also touch upon book recommendations like "Can't Hurt Me" by David Goggins, which offer inspiration during challenging times.
Contact:
www.asiliveandgrieve.com
info@asiliveandgrieve.com
Facebook: As I Live and Grieve
Instagram: @asiliveandgrieve
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To reach Chris:
Website: The Empowered Grief Journey
Credits:
Music by Kevin MacLeod
Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are you.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone. Welcome back again to another episode of as I Live in Grief. You know, this winter cold just wants to hang on In this household of five people. We just share it back and forth and back and forth. But I've already expressed to everyone that I'm done now. This is it. This is the last cold I want for winter and you know I'm ready for spring. This is about the time of year I start looking for buds on trees. Yes, I know that's not realistic, but I still start looking. It's just me. Welcome back today and thank you again for joining us. With us today is Kelly Hello, and our guest is Chris. With us today is Kelly Hello, and our guest is Chris Mamone. Did I say it right, chris? You did.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us today. Thank you, thanks for having me on your podcast Absolutely Our privilege. This is going to be a great conversation and it's about a very difficult topic actually.
Speaker 3:One, I think, of the most difficult things in the world of grief. Before we get started with my questions, of which I never seem to run out of, could you introduce yourself to our listeners, chris, personal power and a little bit about how I ended up being a coach? It's a very interesting story. I have always been in sales my whole life, basically out of college, doing jobs and mortgage insurance and quite a bit of things in between, and, long story short, I've always had grief and loss follow me in life. I don't know why that is, but it's always been on my plate, so to speak.
Speaker 3:So what really led me to being a coach, though, and committing down that career path, was I had my first experience with death, losing my grandfather in my arms back in 2020 after a long battle with cancer. Two years after that, I had the not so fortunate thing to lose my first son to stillborn, and now to go through that whole process. So what I tell people about my journey? I call it the gift and crappy wrapping paper. That's the one we didn't ask for. Good phrase, good phrase, yeah, but we got it, and so I was faced with a choice Do I destroy my life with this or do I create something with it? And because of the love of my son, he gave me the strength to become a coach, to help other people through grief and learn how to heal, and so nothing but grateful for that little man. He changed my world Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you realize this. I lost an infant son who was just 24 years old 24 hours old, I'm sorry, 24 hours and it was in a generation, at a time in society where there were no smartphones. So I never saw a picture, never held him, never saw him in the hospital. He was whisked away to another facility where he died 24 hours later. And that's difficult too. In fact, first he was pronounced stillborn and then they said, oh, wait, wait, he's alive. So I feel like I lost him twice.
Speaker 2:In some ways it is a very, very difficult thing to go through, and I think I've actually grieved that loss more in the last three or four years than I did initially, because he was an entity that I didn't see. So it was easy in my mind to say it didn't happen, and I also have horrid guilt for having felt that way. At any rate, I so appreciate you taking the time to join us. And the term acceptance coach I had not heard before. I heard you. I've heard life coach, transitional coach, grief coach. I've heard many of them. I like acceptance coach because I like that word and the base word accept. Would you explain to people what you mean by that acceptance coach and clarify that, though you do grief, it's not restricted just to loss by death.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, kelly, and I just want to say I'm very sorry for the loss that you went through. I, as a fellow loss parent, I can share those feelings of guilt that just hit you hard. So I just want to share my condolence for you, thank you. Thank you very much, and then you know. Then back to your question of acceptance. How did I come up with that? I struggled with my grandfather's death and I struggle even to this day. I struggle with my son's loss. It just doesn't go away, it doesn't get easier.
Speaker 3:But what I came through a lot of my I had a lot of anger when I went through those losses and what I came to find out because men have a lot of anger the thing that I've told people about anger is that it's the part of you that loves you the most. It's the thing that says I'm not seen, I'm not heard, I'm not understood, I don't feel like I'm myself. It's a big emotional flag for you to listen to yourself and understand yourself and give yourself space to be kind to yourself. And so, losing my son in particular, one of those big moments where I came up with acceptance. I was a woodworker and not even a month after we lost him I was trying to build a box for his ashes and I was very particular about it. It had to be perfect, it had to be right. I wouldn't settle for anything less and the wood wasn't cooperating. So I threw it on the floor of my shop and I smashed my foot, stomping on it, ended up in a cast for six weeks and, long story short, I cried a lot that night. I cried a lot, I was very angry, I was very sad. It just didn't stop for hours. And so when I came to terms with it days after that, I said I have to accept that he's gone and he's not coming back. And I still get crushed saying that phrase to myself, but it's reality of it. He's not coming back. And it was sad to me for a lot of reasons, because I lost my job.
Speaker 3:Three months prior to that, I was dealing with narcissistic abuse from my in-laws. There was just a slew of things that were happening. And my son when I thought you know, we were going to be a happy family when he was supposed to be born I was like, well, at least I have him and at least this child's going to give me purpose and give me meaning and sure, caden still does that, just does it in a different way. So that term acceptance I use with people is that you don't have to like and you do not have to agree with what happened. That's the biggest misconception with that. Acceptance just means that you acknowledge what happened, right, yeah, and just take it for what it is. Yeah, and that stirs a lot of the hard emotions, by the way, part of your healing process.
Speaker 2:Sure, and obviously loss, losing someone through death is incredible, but would you still help someone if they came to you and say, oh, you know, I'm going through the worst divorce and I've got all these problems and everything? Would you be able to help someone like that?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I shockingly funny story. In the mortgage world I was in for eight years. I helped a lot of people at various stages of divorce. There's anger, resentment, betrayal. There's lots of slew of things I won't go into. There's a lot of grief and loss. Right now I'm helping somebody that's 58 years old and recently tried to commit suicide a couple of days ago. I'm helping that person. I'm helping a lady right now who's lost a job and a relationship. So I share that my term acceptance coach. The reason I chose that is that grief, loss and trauma is not tied to losing a job. It can be a job, it can be a relationship. It could be losing a house, it could be, I don't know, losing something in your family. There's a lot of things that could be.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know, for a lot of people it could be losing a job, losing the money that you've been used to getting and you know, getting a cut and pay, and losing your lifestyle. It could be so many things that, whatever the laws, you still grieve it because grief is a loss. We on this podcast really talk mostly about losing someone by death, and the reason is because we feel that that is the one that is least comfortable to talk about and, for goodness sakes, it's finally trending the other way. There are numerous podcasts now on grief. There are all kinds of new titles out there, like Acceptance Coach, life Coach, things like that that people don't have to fear the stigma of going to see a psychiatrist, for example. If they need help, they can go see a coach, a therapist. For a lot of people, just a single word can make a world of difference. Do you have any way of clarifying for us, in your opinion, what the difference is between being an acceptance coach and a therapist?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm actually really appreciative that you asked that question, because not a lot of people do Something that I'll share. The generalized idea of it is that coaching is very much about how do we move forward. It's very much that space that we accept. What happened doesn't mean we like it, but we find what that path is to move forward and the grief space in particular. Trigger words I tell people to be very careful of when you go see a therapist or a coach or you're talking to people as you're grieving. Anybody that says move on or let go or get on with things, that is a very unsafe person to talk to. So please do not put yourself around people like that. There is only moving forward from that and that means learning how to use grief with you.
Speaker 3:Now, when you traditionally see a therapist, a lot of times in my experience and I still go to therapy, by the way therapy is a reflection on your past. It's to look back and reflect and ask yourself was there things I could have done better? Are there things I can learn from this to help me move forward? Can I look at this from a new perspective? It's very much looking back in your past and trying to create those solutions from reverberating, regurgitating what happened. Coaching is very much. Let's just say what happened, let's acknowledge it, accept it and then let's try to figure out what does this path look like moving forward. So it's two different approaches that I both think are very, very valuable. By the way, and grief, I don't. I don't think coaching is better than therapy. I don't think therapy is better than coaching.
Speaker 2:I think, in my perspective, for whatever it's worth is that you were right that one is kind of reflecting back, and I know there's a slogan out there don't look back, don't look in the mirror. You're not going that way. However, if you have feelings of guilt or anything like that, you're going to need to go back and revisit that. So there is definitely value in both aspects of it. It's going to make a difference what is best for you, depending on what you're going through, what you have gone through, and that's one reason that I encourage people, if they think they want professional help, to don't just pick a name or take a recommendation by someone and go to one person. Go to several. Most therapists, coaches, social workers most of them will have some type of introductory free consultation. So we're not talking out-of-pocket expenses, but you want to make sure of several things. What should people look for when they're trying to find the right person for them?
Speaker 3:My biggest bit of advice that I can give everyone today and I had to learn this after losing my son please only talk to professionals, coaches or therapists that make you feel safe. I cannot press that harder as a button, but you need to be in a room with somebody that makes you feel safe, somebody that creates a space for you to be you and express yourself fully. People that coach with me a lot of times try to bottle up their emotions or try to mute themselves, and I tell them up front. When they do that, I say this is a safe place for you to talk right now. There are no limitations with our conversation. I want you to get things out. If you need to, you know cuss and scream and get that out that way. Please, by all means, do it. I need you to get that emotion out the best way that you can so you can see it. You got to be able to express yourself freely and you need to also be with safe people, people that make you feel seen and heard and understood.
Speaker 3:You're not crazy, you're not ridiculous, you're not overdramatic, you're not overly emotional. I've heard those things come up. You're not any of those things when you're going through grief. Grief is a what I like to call. Grief is like a roller coaster. Some days you're cruising along and it's real nice and life can go. Other days it's going to rear its ugly head and it's going to feel like you're falling 10,000 feet out of the air at 100 miles an hour. So be kind to yourself too as you go through that process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the first things I tell people, if they say you know, what should I do? Is be patient with yourself. You know, just be patient. The analogy of the roller coaster is so perfect, because there's that moment where you're just terrified and then you just kind of reach the top and then all of a sudden you lose your stomach, and it can happen that quickly too. Yeah, yeah, now in your sessions with people, are they individual sessions?
Speaker 3:Right now I'm only doing one-on-one coaching.
Speaker 2:Okay, what's the benefit, then, of a group session?
Speaker 3:I've done group coaching a few times and I've been in the process of getting that started right now to structure it. But group coaching, you do have it led by a coach such as myself, and there's usually a structured topic with it every week. So it's usually a six to 12 week program. The biggest thing I like about group coaching is that if you get the right people in the group I hate saying that, but it's. You know, for example, there were 10 of us that lost children.
Speaker 3:Everybody's grief journey is different. It's individual to them, so don't compare your situations. One child loss is not worse than the next. I'll take that. But you're going to find people say this is how I learned to heal, this is where my healing journey took me. Or I had this really big breakthrough last week when I felt part in my grief process and this is what I learned from this. And so you get all these different perspectives from 10, 20 people and it may not necessarily be what the coach says, but it might be that random person you're in the group with that you all of a sudden say I can relate with John today. I went through something like that and he's right about that. I can see that in that light. That's, the real benefit to group coaching is a lot of perspectives and a lot of shared stories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you can get that sense of oh, I'm not alone in this, the more so than if it's an individual session and during your sessions do you have different treatment techniques or different modalities that you will use to help people?
Speaker 3:I do. I have a lot of certifications for coaching and I morph my coaching sessions to the person that's in front of me. So if I have somebody that is for lack of better terms somebody who's very emotional driven, I change the way I coach to match their personality, because if I don't talk in the language they talk in, it's not going to get through. So I have to. A lot of my coaching, believe it or not, is learning about my client. How do they receive information? How do they learn? How do they process their grief? What are those things that are triggers for them? What are those things that help them open up? It's always a learning process for me. If I have a man, for example, that's a very typical, traditional tough guy man, I'll talk in that manner for them, just so that they can get the most out of their experience. So the tricky part about being a coach is you've really got to learn who's in front of you. You got to learn their emotions, where they're at in their healing process and how they want to be talked to. You have to learn those things. How do you do that? I do it through a series of questions and I usually in my first session, my first couple of sessions with people. I don't talk that much. I ask a lot of questions and I listen because I people in the grief space want to be heard. That's the big thing I've learned.
Speaker 3:After losing my kid I had a lot of people that just wanted to tell me what their loss was like and tell me, oh, it'll get better with time or it won't be so bad. Down the road I had two weeks ago I had a thought and I said, man, I wish I had been different when my son was almost going to be born. I wish I had done this, I wish I had done that, or maybe if I did this he'd still be here. This is two and a half years after I lost him. So I use that as an example to say when I coach people, I lean into questions person so that I can really connect with you. And you know back to what you were saying earlier, by the way, kelly, if somebody is not right for you and you get that vibe, it's okay, there's no negative thing about that. Just say we're not a good fit and that's okay. I just need to go find the person. I feel safe with.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely Absolutely, because, yeah, and you know, hopefully they're professional enough to understand that you know they're not going to be right for everybody, that they may have a certain manner about them or a certain tone about the way they speak. That just isn't going to provoke a reaction in you, a response, and you might find, oh, I don't feel comfortable talking to them. That's not somebody you want. You know you want these sessions to be successful. Do you ever give your clients homework?
Speaker 3:I give my homework every week when we have a call Like what might you have them do.
Speaker 3:For example, I have a client right now that's grieving the loss of a relationship that's been over for 10 months and she's caught in a negative self-talk pattern and she tries to reach out to this person a lot, subjects herself to that negativity a lot, and so one of the pieces of homework I gave her is, I said, before you reach out to him and I'm not telling you right or wrong, by the way but before you reach out to him, I want you to hit a stop clock on your phone for 90 seconds and I want you to ask yourself what's causing me to feel like I need to reach out to this person that has clearly shown me I'm not important or value to them. What's causing me to feel this right now? And then write down what am I looking or hoping to achieve out of that phone call? What am I looking, what do I need right now? What are my needs? Telling me.
Speaker 3:And then I also want you to write down am I going to get that? Am I going to feel seen? Am I going to feel heard? Am I going to feel understood or am I going to feel like crap, like what? What am I going to feel, and I gave her that homework to say that this is I can't tell you right or wrong and you're going to do what you want to do but I want to help you understand and process your emotions and that maybe through that process, by the way, maybe you'll get to those through those questions and go. Well, I said I want to call him today. I don't need to, I'm good, I'm all set, I know who I am and so I try to. I give homework for people to go with them and feel themselves and and help them make better decisions for themselves, and that's why I say my coaching. I can't tell you what to do and I never will, but I'll give you suggestions to help you find your answer and ultimately you have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we've we talked about in that initial consultation, agreeing to work with someone that you feel comfortable with. Have you ever had that initial consultation and refused to accept someone as a client based on that?
Speaker 3:I've only had it happen a couple times, but I really felt it was just not a good fit and I'll share this openly. It's more the business side of coaching for me, but I'll just say that I am not a coach that feels comfortable taking people's money if we're not a good fit. And if I'm on the phone with somebody one or two times, and that's very much, just not in a place where we're aligned, so to speak, and there's somebody that needs somebody different, I see that I tell them honestly I'm just not the right person for you. And it doesn't mean you're bad, doesn't mean you're wrong, but just we're not a good fit and I want you to go to that person that can actually help you.
Speaker 3:And there's a lot of coaches out there that won't do it. They'll take your money and just say, well, we'll try to make it work or we'll try to do this, and you waste people's time and emotion and that's where, as a life coach, I'll tell you people share me their deepest pain, their deepest, darkest thing that they won't share other people. And so you have a privilege and a sanctity, by the way, to be respectful people, and I take that very seriously in my business.
Speaker 2:Sure. And how do you know when you have done all you can for someone? How do you know when it's the end?
Speaker 3:That's a tough one in coaching. I'll share that with you. I have had clients I've worked with that I feel like we've done all we can, but life throws them a twist and that can be a loss of any kind or just a shift in where they're going. And so for me, coaching is something that's off and on and ongoing with people. When it is over, by the way, sometimes I've caught on to that I hopefully To have an accountability person. I will always be there for you. You'll never lose me, but if I catch on to that, you've really grown as a person and you really conquered what you came to work with me to do, I'll let you know, because I'm, first and foremost, you know I make money helping people, but on top of that, it's the most beautiful thing to watch somebody go from a bad place and to see them better than I found them and in a place where they can carry themselves. I applaud and I congratulate and celebrate my clients every time they do that, because that's the biggest accomplishment you can get out of coaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you have. If someone came to you and said can you recommend a book for me to read? Do you have any go-to book or books that you will recommend to people?
Speaker 3:It really depends on the situation, but back in 2022, when I lost my kid, I read 40 books that year. I read a lot of them. If I have somebody that's more going through grief but it's more been a masculine state, I'll recommend David Goggins' Can't Hurt Me. It's a beautiful story. The first 50 pages of his book makes me cry because his dad literally beat his mom and him within an inch of their life and David suffers through pain because he struggles with that grief and trauma. So I'll recommend a book like that.
Speaker 3:If there's also somebody that's just lost in life and has gone through just average loss of things, so to speak. Jen Cicero's book You're a Badass is a great book to inspire you that you can achieve things even in the worst moments of your life, when you're broke or you don't have somebody around you and you feel like there's nothing. That that book will lift you up. It's just. It's a great, great book. I've got many others I recommend to people, just depending on where they're at yeah, and do you have themed events throughout the year?
Speaker 2:not really a retreat or anything, but do you offer like an event where you might talk about a certain topic or anything like that? Do you do anything like that?
Speaker 3:I'm in the process of putting those together this year. It's been a little tricky for me because I can coach on so many things. But something I am passionate about, and I'm trying to find a way to market it, is that men that lose kids. There's not a lot of support for us. No, there isn't. There's a lot of support for women, which I'm 100% behind. My wife has gone through a lot after losing her son and still, to this day, have a battle with it. But for men out there there's not a lot of support. We're told you know, suck it up and move on. And unfortunately, men have emotions, just like women do, and we struggle. We show it differently, by the way, we hide it. But I want to reach out to men that have lost a child and I want to say, hey, this was just a bunch of loss, as it was for your wife, and I want you to be able to learn how to express your emotions and learn how you can heal, because healing in silence, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Well then jot the name down, tony Lynch, and look him up on Facebook. You need to connect with him. You know my name, tony. Oh, you know Tony. Okay, then you already know Tony. All right, he's a great guy. Yeah, he would be my number one, for you know, if you want to get into the Men's Grief Network, yeah, he's the great one to help you get there. Yeah, I worked with him on the global conference last year. I'm not involved with them this year because I've just got too much going on. So, okay, well, time is winding down, unfortunately, sadly. I always enjoy talking with our guests, and you're no different. You're very easy to talk to and with, and I appreciate that very much. So this is the time in the podcast where I turn the microphone over to you and let you just take the floor. So it's your turn. The floor is yours.
Speaker 3:Well, if I could give one message today to those who are listening today that are going through loss or grief or trauma, what I want you guys to focus on is being kind to yourself. Grief is a roller coaster that you're going to feel fine some days and you're going to be a trade wreck the next, and I want you to know it's okay, it's completely normal to do that. When you do that, by the way, I want you to focus on your emotions you feel. I want you to understand and write down. Journaling has been a really helpful thing for me. Write down. I feel this way today. I'm having these thoughts today. Be very kind to yourself and do that. It's a big part of healing. The other thing I can share with you I was able to find it in two years after going through what I went through, but there's always a gift and a lesson and a blessing in these moments and I know in the middle of that and grief, it can be very hard to see that and almost in times, impossible. I've been there myself, but just know that these experiences happened for you. They didn't happen to you, and these situations will make you a stronger and better person over life. You're going to have a big gift to contribute to other people who go through it and if you can be, if you can learn to be kind to yourself and work on healing yourself and put yourself in a good place, however long that takes you to get there, you will always be able to help other people that go through it and that's the biggest gift that we all get through our grief and loss. My other thing I can share with you guys if you do want to connect with me for whatever reason, and I love meeting new people. I've had a lot of great people this year. I'm on Facebook. Feel free to come look me up. You can comment or DM me. I'm always open for conversations, to things. I learn new things by everybody I talk to. You guys can also visit my website, wwwseptancecoachcom.
Speaker 3:I do a free one hour call with anybody who'd like to see what coaching is about and kind of like Kelly's talked about today. The reason I'm offering a free one hour call is because I want you to feel free to tell me what's going on in your life, what you're dealing with, what you're going through. I also want to give you the opportunity to get to know me. Am I a good fit for you to work with? Are we? Do you feel safe around me? Do you feel comfortable enough to talk about it?
Speaker 3:I really want to give you that space to be you and make a good decision for you as far as which healing path you need. And other than that, I just want to say there's really no moving on and getting over it when you're on healing journey. It's a lifelong, it doesn't end. There's moving forward with it to the best of your ability, but don't let anybody take away what you've gone through, because that's your personal experience. It's your journey. You will heal on your own terms, in your own way, and I want you to know that that, no matter what people tell you, it's your journey and make sure that you're being kind and being fair to yourself and feeling what you need to feel. That's what I want to leave you guys with.
Speaker 2:Well said, well said, kelly. Do you have any questions or comments? I don't at the moment, but I think I want to be an acceptance coach now that happens. A very good listener, I love that. Yeah, you learn a lot on this podcast and, in addition to getting to talk to all the guests and we've had so many in our conversations have run the gamut from psychics to brain scientists and neuroscientists and parents and personal stories and everything. But with every single guest I have learned something. I really have, you know, even if it's a clever phrase or a new quote or just a perspective that I didn't think about before, and that my bonus for this podcast is how much it has helped me on a personal level. It's helped me with my own grief, it's helped me with acceptance, it's helped me with my listening. It's just helped me in so, so many ways. So I agree, kelly, and you know, you probably know enough that you could be an acceptance coach, but there is value to certifications and little degrees and everything like that.
Speaker 2:In the intro for our podcast, you know, I say I make it a point to say that we're not therapists, we're not clinicians. We're, you know, we're not medical providers, we are you, and that's one reason I think this podcast works as well as it does, because we're not selling a service. We don't allow ads in the middle of our podcast episodes. We're not trying to monetize it. This is our gift to people to help them feel more comfortable about their grief journey and about grief in general, so that they can talk about it more freely and so that they understand there's no shame in grieving. It's something everyone goes through, is going to go through, and I'm sorry, but I also believe that, after going through the pandemic, there's no one in the world that can say I've never grieved. We all lost something in that pandemic Something, some things, many things. So, having said all that, I want to thank you again, chris, for coming on the podcast, taking time. I want to thank you for the work you do as well.
Speaker 2:I do think that Acceptance Coach is a great. It's a great title and it just says so much about the perspective you want people to have on their grief journey. The other thing I want to do is share a quote that really is almost a light bulb moment with me, and it was just a couple days ago. I saw this when someone was telling a story about how much they had been crying, just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. And someone said to them crying is not pain, crying is healing. And I thought, wow, you know what a statement, because it's pouring that emotion out, that's helping you heal, and I thought that was such a neat perspective. So I'm leaving everyone with that thought Take care of yourselves. Come back again next week for another episode of as I Live and Grieve. Thanks again, chris, thank you Kathy.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening with us today. Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes? Please email us at info at as I live and grievecom, and let us know. We hope you will find a moment to leave a review, send an email and share with others. Join us next time as we continue to live and grieve together.