As I Live and Grieve®
It’s time for grief to come out of the basement, or wherever we have stuffed it to avoid talking about it. When you suffer a loss you need support, comfort, and a safe place to heal. What you are experiencing is painful but normal, unique but similar, surreal but very, very real. As grief advocates we understand and want to provide support, knowledge and comfort as you continue to live and grieve. Host, Kathy Gleason; Producer, Kelly Keck. www.asiliveandgrieve.com
As I Live and Grieve®
Dating/Repartnering - with Open Heart and Mind
Dating after loss creates a turbulent emotional landscape. In this candid conversation, returning guest John Polo and I explore the fears, hopes, and practical realities of seeking new connections after being widowed.
Our discussion reveals why dating feels so terrifying—from worries about becoming a caretaker again to navigating unfamiliar dating apps decades after last being single. John offers wisdom drawn from his own journey and his work coaching grieving individuals through relationship transitions: "You can dip your toe in the pool, say 'I'm not ready,' and take it back out."
For the first time publicly, I share my evolving perspective on dating seven years after losing my husband. While previously adamant about never dating again, I've begun reconsidering what companionship might look like in this chapter of life. This shift highlights an important truth about grief—our needs and readiness change over time in ways we can't always predict.
The conversation extends beyond romantic partnerships to the profound importance of human connection in all forms. John shares beautiful stories of creating friendships through simple conversations with strangers, reminding us that we're "one hello, one smile away from a new friend, a new love."
Whether you're considering dating, helping someone who is, or simply curious about life after devastating loss, this episode offers practical guidance for moving forward with both courage and self-compassion. The path forward isn't about replacing what was lost, but about honoring your journey while remaining open to life's continuing possibilities.
Contact:
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To Reach John:
Email: john@johnpolocoaching.com
Website: johnpolocoaching.com
Credits:
Music by Kevin MacLeod
Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells the truth about how hard this is. We're glad you joined us today. We know how hard it is to lose someone you love and how well-intentioned friends and family try so hard to comfort us. We created this podcast to provide you with comfort, knowledge and support. We are grief advocates, not professionals, not licensed therapists. We are you.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody. Not professionals, Not licensed therapists. We are. You Pick at that y'all and that yonder, but truly I'm still a Yankee. Okay, so my apologies to the South. Today we have a repeat guest, and I love it when guests come back, because it's like catching a friend that you haven't seen for a while, and today's no exception. With us today is John Polo. Welcome back, John.
Speaker 3:Good to see you, my friend, we are friends. It's good to see you.
Speaker 2:We are friends. It's good to see you. We are. In fact, we actually met face to face twice now, and that was a real treat as well. So today we're going to revisit a topic that seems to get a lot of interest when I look at the analytics of our different episodes and everything. We've talked about dating and repartnering, although I didn't know that word repartnering at the time. We talked about dating and repartnering although I didn't know that word, repartnering at the time. We talked about dating a couple of times before I guess, but it's been a long time and there seem to be a lot of people interested in this topic. I'm going to chalk that up to things being the way they are in the world. It's difficult to kind of absorb all the news that's really not fit to print when you're totally by yourself. So I think there's this need, this urgency if you will, to find someone to share the burden with you Would you agree?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean absolutely. I think that and I also think, just like human loneliness is not talked about enough. We live in a world of now I think it's 8 billion people I think we've crossed that, I think it's 8 billion now and human loneliness is a huge problem, and I'm not just talking about grief or widowed people, just we, when we were born, I always say we were programmed to desire family, friends, community and romantic love, friends, community and romantic love.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So why is the topic of dating then so daunting? I know why. For me it would be, and you've heard me say on air that I'm not interested in dating. But you know what Time goes by and my brain is starting to feel a little bit differently on the topic. Wow, yeah, I know, I knew you'd be amazed with that. That's news, full disclosure for me. That's not to say that I would ever entertain marrying again, but I will admit that, even though I live with my daughter, stephanie and her husband and two adult boys now, and it's a busy, active household and I love them all very much, when I close that door to my room at night, I realize, gee, it'd be nice to have somebody to talk to them all very much. When I closed that door to my room at night, I realized, gee, it'd be nice to have somebody to talk to at the very least. Yet that idea of dating terrifies me. Why do you suppose that is?
Speaker 3:Because it's terrifying. If we're just going to look at widowed people for a moment which you and I are both widowed people, I mean, we thought we were never going to have to enter the dating world ever again. It was done. We found our person and for most people most of my clients are women 50 and above and honestly, I think most are probably in their 60s and I have a large number in their 70s they have not dated in 40 or 50 years, right, right, and the world? It is a different world with online dating and scammers. And that's not even to talk about our own interpersonal thoughts, emotions, fear, guilt, self-esteem issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, it could be daunting. Yeah, it is. It's terrifying. It's terrifying, yet there are many who start out and dip their toes in it.
Speaker 3:Well, and that's the thing I always say when people ask me like John, how do I know if I'm ready, one of the things I say is well, you're asking me if you might be ready, right, and usually it's like at a workshop I'm doing, or it's a client that has brought up the conversation. So that's an indicator to me that we are maybe a little bit closer than we think. And I love that you said dip your toe in it, because what I always say to people is like you are not signing a contract with you know the dating gods, the relationship gods, that you are going to stay in that dating pool forever.
Speaker 2:You can literally dip your toe in the pool, say, oh, I'm not ready for this, take it back off. Yeah, and I think you know. For me, the things right now that I consider daunting, terrifying things that I really don't want to experience again, far outweigh what I would take as positive outcomes. Yet I know that's not realistic. I know it's not realistic just because I remember what I had with Tom. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to play coach for a second. I know you're not going to ask me what it's you. I'm going to take over the interview for a second. Tell me about if you're willing and, if not, say pass, it's your podcast, not mine. Like, what are the fears that are so daunting? And then like in your mind, what are the positives?
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm happy to be very candid with you and with our listeners because I really don't think I'm all alone in this. My first big number one fear is I don't want to go through the eight months that I went through with Tom while he was ill with a brain tumor. I don't know if I can do that again. That's number one. Number two is that initial moving from a cup of coffee and conversation to that affection, hand-holding, public display of affection type thing. And number three would be introducing to family and or friends that I might meet, yeah, those.
Speaker 3:So I mean the problem with talking about dating is we could talk about it for 50 hours Fascinating, that's why you keep coming back, right.
Speaker 3:I'm going to say a couple things. The first is kind of just to validate there are a lot of reason and again, if we're just looking at widowed people for a second why a widowed person might be fearful to go back out into the dating world. There are a lot of reasons I cover when I work with people on this. For me, the biggest fear I had was going through it again, becoming a caretaker again. It scared me so bad and, if I'm being honest, it scares me so bad. So that is absolutely a thing.
Speaker 3:One of the things I do when I start looking at that fear is I look at the fear but I don't stare at it. I talk about this a lot with a lot of different things in life. We have to be careful what we're staring at. We all stare at the person on Facebook who is talking about their horrible dating experience. We all stare at every insecurity we've ever had. We all stare at oh my God, what if I have to become a caretaker again? But we don't look over at the other side, which is all the people who have found love again and all the awesomeness that we as our own unique, amazing self bring to the table, and all of the beauty and amazement that I had with Michelle and if I could go back in time, was it worth it? Yes, it was.
Speaker 3:So that's a huge fear, absolutely, I'll also just say because, again, I could talk about this all day. So I have to rein myself in. You know, for me personally, the first time I kissed a woman, even the first time I was intimate with a woman, that did not mess me up emotionally, the first time a woman took my hand, she took my hand and held it. Oh, like we had we. This was. I think this might have been my first kiss after michelle passed like a kiss and then, like 15 minutes later, we started walking and she held my hand and that messed me up, that messed you up, right, yeah, yeah yeah, so like it's weird what our grief and our fear, and even sometimes our guilt, will do to us.
Speaker 3:It's not necessarily as we expect it to be right, right, right.
Speaker 2:And, of course, the very first thing I would say when you tell your story and everything is that yeah, but I'm not as young as you are. Okay, I would fully expect someone your age younger, even a little bit older, to really want to have a partner, but in all honesty, I don't know how long I have left a partner. But in all honesty, I don't know how long I have loved Now. I'm not in my 90s certainly, but I am 74. So with now a new diagnosis that it could be at some point substantial.
Speaker 3:So someone actually could wind up taking care of me. Yeah, I think again, we don't have enough of an open mind when we think about everything in life, including dating. So one quick thought and then I'm going to go to exactly what you said. I used to be like a very negative person. I wasn't a very hopeful person or optimistic person. What actually made me a very hopeful person, a very optimistic person, is my work.
Speaker 3:Now, that sounds crazy when you consider that, when it comes to the coaching, probably 90% of my clientele people in my groups are widowed people. That's made you hopeful. That's so weird. The reason it's made me hopeful is because I see people who, like myself, who are in so much human pain that they didn't even want to be here anymore. They're finding life again and love again and their smile again and peace again and all of that. So it takes me back to the point.
Speaker 3:I have so many clients in their 60s and, yes, even in their 70s, who found love again.
Speaker 3:I have clients, you know, two o'clock I'll be on the phone with the client who's 72 years old and has found love again, and at three o'clock I'll be on the phone with a 34 year old client who is still looking right, right, and also as somebody who has multiple sclerosis, yeah, the table could flip.
Speaker 3:Yeah, somebody you know, my fiancee ali like because I am engaged, she could have to take care of me, sure? So anytime you go into any kind of partnership, there is that dual risk. Yeah, the last thing I'm gonna say because I like when you talk more than me, um, is I think we have to open our mind up to, like what it might look like. We're not 28 years old anymore, right, like it could be that you have a companion, a non intimate companion. It could be that you have, you know, a boyfriend, even though that weird that word is so weird, right, that's how weird. He's been married who lives 20 minutes away for the next 10 years. So I think we need to open our mind to what finding love means at this point.
Speaker 2:All right, all right, I accept that. I accept that. So I know I've asked this before on other episodes, but where do you start?
Speaker 3:It's a great question In terms of finding someone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because online we all know how that goes. I have to say that in an average day, I either will get I'll get two to three requests for friend on Facebook from a male who, when I check their profile, it doesn't exist and they only have one photo in their entire thing, yet they say that they've been online for 20 years. So things that I am confident are not honest, true people, or an occasional email as well, so it makes me very gun shy well, I think there's a couple things.
Speaker 3:I know there are so many horror stories of online dating. I know that, and I know there's scammers out there. And, yes, there are a lot horror stories of online dating. I know that, and I know there's scammers out there, and, yes, there are a lot of idiots out there. Let's just be honest. But there are a lot of amazing people too.
Speaker 3:I remember a conversation I was having with a client once and she goes John, I want to convince myself that everybody online is just, you know, kind of an idiot, right, kind of a scammer. And I was like, okay, well, you want to convince yourself of that, why haven't you or why can't you? And she goes, because you and I are online, right, I'm like, exactly, there are good, amazing people on there. So I'm always of the belief that if you want to try to find something again, you don't have to go online. But are you meeting people organically? Because if you are somebody who works from home and really never gets out of the house or meets new people, then you might want to dip your toe in the online pool just to put yourself out there more For people who are outside of the home, at work or in communities.
Speaker 3:My biggest thing and I've been talking about this for years, but I see even more now that my fiance and Allie and I moved from Illinois to California and we have no community here. We're trying to build community is talk to people. Oh yes, create conversations. It is so easy. You are truly one new friend, one new business opportunity, one new love away when you just create a conversation and it can be out of thin air.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, sometimes that does happen and I'm of the type that works from home. I don't really get out much. In fact, now that AJ, my younger grandson, is grown up and ready to head off to college, he stopped playing soccer, so I don't even get out to soccer games anymore, which occasionally would put me in front of new people. So for me, meeting someone in the community is probably very, very low chance. So if you're looking online, how do you separate, how do you decide that this person I'm not sure if they're real or not, but you decide to trust somebody. Yeah Well, I mean, I'm not sure if they're real or not, but you decide to trust somebody.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I mean, I think it's good to have your guard up online, right? I don't think we should be giving our credit card information or security numbers to anybody. You know, I have a lot of clients who wants to actually have somebody's name. They will do a background check and I think that that's perfectly fine. You want to slow walk it, no doubt about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You definitely want to slow walk it. I don't want to put any kind of individual labels on it, but one of the things that really concerns me is if you feel like you're being love bombed, love bombed, yes Right, probably an indication that they're a scammer. If you've been talking to them for three months and they absolutely will not get on the phone with you, or you've been talking to them for four months and they absolutely cannot meet for coffee ever, probably an indication that you should be a little bit concerned. Good points.
Speaker 2:Good points. Okay, Now here's one wacky off the wall. I'm just going to tell you a story, an occasion where I had some fun, but this is really off the wall. I'm just going to tell you a story, an occasion where I had some fun, but this is really off the wall. This is so net me, Stephanie and I were on our way to a conference one weekend this is more than a year ago and I was looking at the agenda, the different sessions and everything, and there was a session on artificial intelligence.
Speaker 2:You know what's coming right? I don't know. I don't really know. I know what it is, but I've never experienced it. So I downloaded it at ChatGPT, which was free, and I started to just pose a question here and there. Well before you know it, I was having a conversation with AI and it was one of the funniest things. Stephanie and I were in stitches. It actually got to the point where we had to pull off the road at a Starbucks to get something because she was having a hard time driving. We were laughing so hard and I thought to myself how many people out there are lonely enough to have AI as a best friend. And does that work for people? Boy listeners, you can't see John's face, but he's really thinking about what he's going to say.
Speaker 3:Cause cause. So I actually just took it off my website. I took it off my website. I might add it back on. On my website.
Speaker 3:I have a bunch of keynotes that I offer, and one was about human loneliness, and you were at the keynote that I gave in Toronto, so you heard the beginning. Part of it talks about my own struggle with human loneliness, and I'm not just talking about after my wife died, I'm talking about since I was 12 years old. I don't want to tell anybody who is struggling with human loneliness what to do, but my own thought on that is ai is not the way to go. There are amazing, wonderful humans in this world, and if you don't have them in your life, I want you to go out there and try to find them. And I know as, again, somebody who struggled with human loneliness, not just just for romantic connection but for friendship, for community, at different points in my life. That is hard, it's hard, but it's also life changing once you find it. And one of the ways to find it I'm telling you it's not so stupid, but it's true is go out in the world and create conversation with people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, I read a great book years ago and the title of the book was Never Eat Lunch Alone. I read a great book years ago and the title of the book was Never Eat Lunch Alone.
Speaker 2:Now it was focusing on the concept of networking and how you never know the person you meet, how sometime later in life you might reconnect with them because of a need you have or they have. But every time somebody makes a comment like go out and meet people, I think of that book. And it's true. If you happen to be out, maybe you're going to, maybe you're going to take yourself out to breakfast, because that's what you and your spouse used to do and you're just going to be. You're going to be daring. This is a challenge. Now I'm going to go out and I'm going to have breakfast by myself, engage in conversation with the people around you, or, if someone is sitting by themselves and the restaurant is very, very crowded, maybe just say would you mind if I shared a table?
Speaker 3:So 100%. I could talk about this all day. I'll give you one story here. So my fiance, ali, and I, where we moved in California, it's a completely walkable town. We don't even have cars and every morning we walk about 25 minutes to this little cafe where we get our breakfast and our coffee and for about maybe five or six days straight, we saw a woman there every day sitting outside reading a book and she looked like just like one of the kindest humans that you've ever laid eyes on. So maybe four or five days ago, as we were walking by, we were walking in and she was already there.
Speaker 3:I introduced myself and Allie introduced herself and we started a little bit of a conversation. Why to tell she was widowed I just know I have that radar Right and that conversation came up, et cetera, et cetera, and I said you know, maybe we can, you know you can join us one day, I know you like to read, but maybe you can join us one day and we'll have breakfast, and she was all excited about it. Okay, so a couple days later we see her again we hadn't set up the breakfast date yet and we start talking about the book she's reading and it's something that Allie and I have an interest in. So we sat down and we talked for 20 minutes and now next weekend we have a breakfast date with her. She is I don't know how old I'm gonna like late 60s, 70s maybe. But again like we now met somebody in our community who, by the way, I share a bond with because we're widowed. We are on the same page, we have a lot of like mindedness.
Speaker 3:Is that a thing? Mutual interest? We have made a friend. I'm 40, allie is 31. And we have made a friend that could be our mom or our grandma, and all I did was introduce myself. And I know it may sound weird, but, as somebody who has struggled so much with human lowlands, I used to be that person taking myself out to breakfast or to lunch or for coffee, hoping that somebody would talk to me because I needed more people in my life. And then one day I realized, oh, if I want more people in my life, if I want to try to find love again, if I want more community, why don't I start talking to people? Why am I waiting?
Speaker 2:Right. So let me ask you a question then. So when somebody says am I ready for dating, is it possible that what they're really looking for whether it may be dating, but what they really may be looking for is just more friends, all those friends you lose sometimes, like you say yourself I mean, this isn't anybody, you're going to date. Yet you have a new friend, and one that will occupy some time, someone you can sit and talk with, chat here and there. I mean I'd be okay with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. You know, after my wife died sorry, I'm the king of stories, that's okay. No, that's fine. So about two or three weeks after my wife died I was supposed to meet an old high school friend for dinner, completely 100 million percent platonic. I was supposed to meet Jenna for dinner and Jenna and I we knew each other in high school. We hung out in the same group but we were never super tight. So as I'm driving to the restaurant she texts me hey, my sister is going to join us and I was so annoyed because I'm thinking like I don't have the capacity to deal with anybody else right now, like I just wanted to go and have some food with you. So I was so annoyed.
Speaker 3:I get there and her sister and I hit it off, again strictly platonic, 100 million percent. And we became really really, really close friends. For a couple of years. She again it was 100 million percent platonic friends. For a couple years. She again it was a hundred million percent platonic. There was no interest either way. That did not fill any type of romantic connection, romantic desire for me throughout the years. But man did it fill some of that need for friendship and for community. And for me as a straight man I so miss, just like going to dinner or having coffee or a laugh with someone of the opposite sex, and that brought it into my life. So, yes, I think that we can be lonely for a lot of different things Community, friendship, romantic love, etc.
Speaker 2:Okay. So perhaps say for myself, if I'm at the point now where, all of a sudden, when I have said for years and Tom's been gone, well, it'll be seven years next month and I have said I'm never going to do this again, right, forget it. And I've had friends that have wanted to introduce me to someone. No, I'm never, never doing this again. I was very emphatic, you know that. Would it be okay, advantageous, or would it be a suggestion perhaps for me not to focus on the dating part but just go out and meet new?
Speaker 3:people. I think you could do either, or I think there is, so let's look at either. Or I think if you identify something you want in this life especially as short as life can be and as crazy as this world is, I think we kind kind of owe it to ourselves not to hold ourselves back to pursue it. I am looking at that thing I want and how can I allow myself a greater opportunity to get it. That doesn't mean you have to spend four hours a day online dating. No, no, no, right. But maybe you just put yourself online dating and you check it five minutes a day. You're just allowing that to happen.
Speaker 3:That being said, I know for me I was way too fixated on finding love and because it wasn't happening, it was starting to depress me so badly. Now I was really lonely, right. It was five and a half years, I think, after Michelle passed, before I met Allie. A month before I met Allie, I said and I kind of gave up if I'm being honest. I said I'm not going to find it and you know what. That's okay, I'm just going to go live my life. I'm going to have as much you know, fun, enjoyment, help as many people as I can move to California, live on the beach. I'm done looking.
Speaker 3:So I do think that there can be a taste made. If you're looking, put yourself out there more. How are you like allowing the universe to help you? There can also be a case for just go live your life and create conversations with people, meet people, make eye contact, smile and let's see what unfolds, so you don't feel this burden every time you go in the supermarket oh my gosh, I have to meet somebody amazing right now. Does that make sense.
Speaker 2:Yes, it makes perfect sense, it really does.
Speaker 3:And you mentioned supermarket, that's probably where I find the most men shopping by themselves on a given morning of the week. But you know that you're one. Hello. One smile, one. Oh, I was thinking of trying that bag of chips. Have you eaten them often? Are they good? Away from a new friend. I have equations. A new love, love. Yeah, it sounds stupid, but I'm telling you that's how it happens yep, yep.
Speaker 2:Well, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. At what things should someone, particularly a female, be careful of as you start to date again, as you start to trust someone?
Speaker 3:well, yeah, I'll give you a couple bullet points. I mean, obviously there's a scammer thing, but I'm gonna go to go deeper than that. I don't care when a widowed person starts dating again. I don't care if you start dating a month after your person passes, four years after your person passes or never again.
Speaker 3:That's not for me to look at or judge, but what I sometimes see is people who do start too early, too early, meaning they have done the work on themselves right. That's what I mean by too early. They are more likely to pick the wrong person, and I'm even this is me too. I was a mess about 11 months out when I met somebody who was not right for me at all Kathy and because I was a mess when I met her, I kept going with it. So I think if we haven't done the work on ourselves, if we are in a really bad place, we are more likely to pick the wrong person.
Speaker 3:Now, that being said, I know a lot of people who met somebody early on and are in love and a good relationship. I also think obviously we could talk about this on another episode, because I know we're running out of time but comparing, it's natural and it's human to compare. But again, we don't want to stay there, we want to look at the new person and to not judge them is not the right word but, for lack of a better word right now, judge them on that. When I in the past compared new love interest to my late wife Michelle, that did a disservice to the new love interest Right. It did a disservice to me. And it did a disservice to Michelle Right, because there will never be another Michelle Right. She was her own unique human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I agree with you. Maybe we need to start the next time you come on, maybe there should be a progression and turn it into a series with you Part one, part two, you know, and next time talk about comparing, and the time after that talk about something else, whatever, because you have and I know you've gone through it yourself, but you have an uncanny ability to really make sense out of this whole thing and you can take the terrify out of it. You really can, just because you speak very clearly. Terrify out of it, you really can, just because you speak very clearly and very confidently about it.
Speaker 3:I always so. I joke. I always tell people like I cannot fix anything. I am the worst cook in the history of the world. I have no idea how to fix a flat tire for real. And the reason why I lean in with that type of true stuff, but also kind of like leaning in with my weaknesses, is because, when it comes to dating, I think I know what I'm talking about and one of the reasons why is I go beyond what a lot of dating coaches will tell you. I think, if I'm being honest and so much of dating is interpersonal issues, the mind right. That's why we look at, when we do these dating groups like guilt and fear, comparing self-esteem and self-worth. You know how do I still love Michelle, but I'm also like in love with Allie. It's so much deeper than the stuff that meets the eye If we're all dating, but especially for widowed people, yeah.
Speaker 2:I would agree with that. I definitely would agree with that. And as far as comparing and everything like that, of course I have a copy of every one of your books, but the one that you wrote, specifically focused at this concept of dating, finding new love, is the best. I have recommended that book I can't tell you how many times and suggested that both people read it. I've given it as a gift a few times in fact to people.
Speaker 2:So absolutely, and you're right, time is winding down, darn. It Always happens, but especially when I'm talking with you, and it's just because the conversations, I think, are so enjoyable. You've given me some clarity today and I appreciate it. For once now I finally come out not out of the closet, but you know onto the airwaves and said well, you know, maybe, maybe I won't rule it out anymore, I won't be quite so emphatic, but at any rate, I appreciate everything you've said and I know listeners will too. So this is the time in the podcast, you remember, I'm going to turn the microphone over to you and, even though you might not like to talk that much, I would like you to tell people what's going on, how you're available to help them and where they can find you and all that good stuff I like to talk.
Speaker 3:I'm just sick of my own voice sometimes. So my website is johnpolocoachingcom. On there you will find two podcasts that I used to do. You could listen to them for free. You will find the new one that I'm planning to do, probably later this year. You'll also see an option for one on one. Coaching workshops, groups, my brand new retreats that are coming up, and I do work with people every day on grief and dating, but also pretty much everything else under the sun. So motivation, self-esteem, you name it. I pretty much have a workshop or a group on it where I could help you one-on-one. And then I do have the four books as well.
Speaker 2:Well, that was pretty succinct. I expected you to go into a lot more detail. What I will say in closing? And we talk about self-care a lot and I always remind people to take care of themselves as they grieve. Many times I remind them of something you told me at one time that self-care even includes surrounding yourself with the right-minded people, other people with open minds and open hearts. That's a form of self-care to stay away from the toxicity. Did you want to add to that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll make it short because I know we're running out of time. I think people are one. To me, people are one of the most important versions of self-care that there is. I know that when you and I saw each other last, it was in Toronto and I was in a really bad place, going to that convention where I was going to give the keynote speech, and being around all of those amazing humans that we were around listed me up. People are a version of self-care and you have to watch how you feel when you're around that person. Do you feel like the you that you want to be? Do you feel hopeful and inspired and seen, and are you laughing, or can you not wait to get out of their presence? It matters, it really does it matters.
Speaker 2:It does, and I would like to advocate for that to be. One of the primary steps in self-care is to surround yourself with the right people. Having said that, I'm going to wish everyone well, ask everyone to take care of themselves and just kind of keep on moving, keep on heading forward and it'll all settle at some point. John, thanks so much for joining me today and keep going as we all continue to live and grieve.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening with us today. Do you have a topic that you'd like us to cover or do you have a question from one of our episodes? Please email us at info at asiliveandgrievecom and let us know. We hope you will find a moment to leave a review, send an email and share with others. Join us next time as we continue to live and grieve together.